206 - Hair Care and Humor: The Roots for Business Success with Fairy Tales Hair Care's Risa Barash

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Risa Barash, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO and co-founder— I got to look at my notes—

Yes.

Fairy Tales Haircare, found it, you know, you could really mispronounce this, right?

Yeah.

DougNollHaircare.com. It's haircare for kids.

Yes. Started in 1999. Wow.

So I'm sort of stunned. 1999. That's 25 years.

Yes, I know.

That is amazing.

Well, tell us the story. How, what is this and how did it begin?

So it is a crazy story. So I was many years ago a standup comedian in New York City, and I probably auditioned for every TV show that was never made in the '90s and early 2000s. And I started dating this lovely man, and he had a cousin who owned a children's hair salon in Long Island in New York. And Rob was out there one day and he, his cousin had this shampoo that had rosemary oil in it and they said that it helped prevent head lice. And Rob was watching all the moms in all the towns surrounding the salon come running in and buying the shampoo off the shelf. And he said, well, that's a gold mine. And he came home and he told me this idea and no one, you know, I was falling in love at the time and no one really likes a happy comic. So I was sort of looking for, you know, what was I going to do next? And I'm actually a fourth generation entrepreneur. And I guess something deep inside me says, I got this. And I got the shampoo and I, I went to the New York Public Library and I looked at all the ingredients because there was no such thing as Google at the time. And how embarrassing is that? I'm dating myself, but that's okay. And I cleaned up the formulas and made a conditioner and a spray. And I started walking up and down the streets of New York City and going into salons and asking them if they wanted to buy it. And that's how it all started.

And you got, you got, you got salon owners to actually start carrying the product.

I did. And then I got them to talk about it to all the moms. Smart. I had no money to do any advertising, right? So, so that's really how it started. And sometimes they would buy it, sometimes they wouldn't. And I would offer to, you know, I'd keep a little notebook where I would write down what they bought. And sometimes it was on consignment and I would go back and collect my money because no one ever said no after a while. And soon we, I think we started our first website. We started selling online very, very early on. I, I will tell you, my son is 20. 22, and he was just born when we started our first website. So we started selling online long before most people were doing it. And then the retailers started coming to us. I mean, Bed Bath Beyond is a New Jersey-based business, so they sort of had heard about what was going on, and they were our first customer, and it just grew from there. And now we're found in Target and Walmart and CVS and Walgreens and Everywhere. Ulta. Anywhere you can think of, you can find our products.

And that comedy to a CEO of a major, a major brand.

Yeah. Talk about a big change.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you had probably had no training in business or leadership or any of that stuff.

No, I, I actually didn't finish college.

Wow.

Yeah. So how many employees do you have now?

25. 25. And, and every, everybody's based in New Jersey or they kind of spread around?

We're almost all based in New Jersey. I have 2 remote employees. That's it. I like my people close.

There you go. And I presume, do you, I'm presuming you outsource manufacturing to a, to a manufacturer?

We do. Um, in, in the United States, we never outsourced, you know, overseas. And we have distributors and I have 3 loading docks and, you know, at our warehouse. And it's funny, I actually walked in through the warehouse this morning. It's true. Story. And I looked around and it's palleted, you know, 4 high and there's, you know, hundreds of thousands of bottles in this warehouse. And I just looked around and I said, I can't believe this is all mine. Like, this is crazy.

That is amazing.

So does your husband work with you in the business?

My ex-husband. And yes, he does. Yeah. Good times. Talk about figuring out how to lead, right? There's one of them.

Okay. Your personal relationship didn't work so well, but your business relationship still goes forward.

Correct. We did a beautiful job building the business. And, you know, he's, he's just been very kind and sort of letting me, you know, run, run what I run. And, and it works. It works for us for now. So for you.

So what is it that gets you up in the morning? You've been doing this for 25 years. A long time. What is it today that gets you excited to get up?

My people, my staff. I finally figured it out. It took a really long time. To become a good leader and to know what I want and who I want and what kind of person is going to work with my style. Because as we said, you know, I'm not a Harvard-trained MBA who started a business. And once I finally learned that I lead, I lead the way I do and I hire for culture. I now have just the greatest team and I love, I still love going to work every day.

So when you hire for culture, tell me more about that.

Um, call me witchy. So some of that is really just, you know, it's instinct, but I look for people that understand that it's a job and it's great and they love what they do, but it's not their everything. They have an outside life and they're comfortable talking about their outside life. I usually, I don't hire big personalities, but I hire open personalities and you can sort of get that when you're talking to people. And I can teach anybody how to market or sell, you know, I'm not, I didn't, you know, we're not curing cancer. We're selling children's hair care, right? So that's what I always tell people. So I like to have a good time. We do a lot of fun things in the office and, you know, I, and I can just, those are the people I hire. I look for that kind of personality and that's how I do it.

What do you think the most important thing is that you've learned about leadership? In the 25 years that you've been doing this?

To listen.

Listening with leaders.

Yeah. So there you go. See, I told you I'm gonna end up asking you a lot more questions.

That's okay. Say more. Talk about listening. We'll compare notes.

Well, I don't, I've no formal training whatsoever. Just 25 years of hiring and firing. People always, they, they, I think they tell you what they need, whether they wanna admit it or not. If you listen, you can sort of read between the lines and understand what they're looking for. And then I like to ask a lot of questions and let them talk and see, you know, see what, what they need from me. I like— it was, it was very odd. I went from doing absolutely everything in this business from packing boxes, you know, to going to the post office at one point to mail them out to, you know, running, you know, a multimillion-dollar business. And so I've learned to just ask people what they want. And figure out what it is and then try to make it happen. I mean, I have this amazing young woman who on her first interview said she wants to be a manager. She wants to learn how to lead. And I said, great. I will make that happen for you. We are going to put you in, get you to a management position, and I am going to watch you grow, and I'm going to help you grow, and we're going to have these great conversations about it. And that's just kind of, I've just been figuring out as I'm going along. And thank God, I think this is one of my strengths. No one would ask me to do math, but they certainly would ask me to sit down and have a good conversation.

You know, the sense I'm getting, the energy out of you is joy.

Yeah.

You have a lot of—

I'm a happy person.

What?

Yeah. I'm a happy person. Life is good right now. I'm in a good— you know, listen, everything ebbs and flows, right?

Right.

I'm in a good place. It's nice. Yeah.

So how did you learn how to listen?

By not listening. Keeping Yang, huh?

All right.

Exactly. I'm a Libra. I made some bad hires and they were good at what they were doing, but they just didn't fit in the culture and they didn't get me and they didn't get my leadership and they didn't like my leadership. And I just knew that they didn't hear me and I wasn't going to hear them.

So they didn't listen to you.

Yeah, it's reciprocal.

You used an interesting word. I call it listening other people into existence. And they did not make you feel heard?

Correct.

You were not validated by them?

No.

And I, you know, that's— you can't work together if you don't listen to one another, right?

But it's— but let The mind shift is not only listening, but making sure the other person feels heard.

Yes.

And that's the deeper level of listening that I teach.

I love that.

That so many people don't get.

No, they really don't. They really don't. I was just talking about this. I had a woman in marketing. She was a high-up executive. She came from a really great corporate company and wanted to be in a smaller business. And could not understand how I ran my business. She wanted me to be this buttoned-up executive. And that's just not who I am. And I would sit and I would try to get her around because I can sell sand in the desert, right? So I can make a room full of people laugh. Like, how could I not get this woman to hear me? And finally I just said, we can't do this anymore. So it's a heck of a lesson.

Yeah, sometimes people's ego, egos get in the way. Yes. And they can't let go. How do you learn, how do you move from doing everything to move into a broader leadership role and not micromanage?

Um, just time. I, I probably did for a long time, you know, I, I don't, I didn't really understand the art of hiring, so I made a lot of mistakes. I'm great at making mistakes because I'm okay with it. Like, I don't, I don't really take it to heart for very long. And I figure they're all a lesson, I guess, at some point. So I made mistakes. I made some crappy hires and I figured that out. And then I would say, okay, what didn't I like about this? Let's not do it this time. And it was just a building. It was a building block of, of just getting better at it.

I've interviewed over 200 leaders. On this show, and the one of them— one, if not the most important, it would be the second most important thing that leaders talk about is the importance of making good hires.

Yeah, it's amazing.

You know, it's not about numbers, it's not about finance, it's not about sales or marketing, it's not development or whatever. It's all about who do you hire.

Yeah, it's wild. Like, it's the key to, it's the key to a successful business, hands down.

Hands down. And every single successful leader I've talked to says the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you get so caught up in the negative and it just, it permeates and, you know, it's a bad seed in an office is like a cancer. And if you don't cut it out, it'll just, I went through it. It was a wild experience. Not that long ago. I'm talking right before the pandemic. And I had 3 people that just were cancerous in the office. And I put my foot down. I was proud of myself. It's sort of not, you know, instinctually who I am. And I just walked in and said, out.

Wow.

That takes, that takes courage and strength.

Yeah. This is my baby. You know, I mean, you know, I feel very responsible. You know, I obviously support my family and I have 25 employees and I, you know, I take that very seriously. So don't mess with my business. Don't mess with my kids. Don't mess with my business.

How do you manage work-life balance? I know you've got grown kids now, but how do you manage that?

I wasn't very good at it, but because I always, I, I was always very honest and I always said that there are going to be days where I'm a better mom and there are days when I'm a better business owner. And I mean, listen, hindsight's 20/20, but not being a stay-at-home helicopter parent, my kids are amazing and independent and just self-sufficient, wonderful adults. But I failed a lot of times, but my kids always knew they were loved. That was it. They just always knew that. And I figured after that. If I'm not there for a PTA meeting, though, someone will get over it one day. Or I'll pay for therapy.

Exactly. Yeah. You had a question you wanted to ask me? You're curious about my work?

Yeah, I would love to know. Well, I love that, you know, you've interviewed 200 CEOs. What do you— what kind of— I would just love to know what kind of personality traits that you find in them and And where do they end up and how, what, what's their second and, you know, what's the second stage? Like how do, how do you stop being a CEO? Do they stop being a CEO? I don't know. I just love all this stuff.

The most interesting, one of the most interesting things is the vast majority of successful CEOs are introverts, not extroverts. Although I interviewed a guy today who was an, who was an ambivert. He's over in New York City. I think he's New York City.

He was an an—

yeah, he's New York City. He's an ambivert. He's both an introvert and an extrovert. But very few of the people that I've interviewed are true extroverts. So I thought that was pretty interesting.

That is pretty interesting.

What I've also found is that as CEOs mature, whether they own their own business or they, you know, they're working for a board of directors, is what becomes— in the beginning, success is defined by growing the business and making it successful. But they get to a certain age, mid-50s, maybe into their 60s. And now what becomes important is creating meaning in life. Creating— how do I create meaning? I built this business that my identity is wrapped up in it, but now I want to do more. How do I— what do I do? How do— what's my— what's the next chapter of all this? So I get— we get a lot of more mature people are thinking along those lines. And I thought that— I think that's pretty interesting.

I love that. That's Pretty. Yeah. I mean, no, you know, I'm pretty honest. I'm, you know, I'm in my late 50s and I love what I've created and now I'm wondering what's next.

Right.

You know, because I can see that, you know, I, you know, it's a multimillion dollar business and it's amazing and I love it and I love the people, but I'm like, what can I do next? You know, like, or how, what's the next stage of this?

That's what happened to me. I mean, yeah, I was a trial lawyer for 22 years, went back to school, got my master's degree, left the practice of law to become a peacemaker, and then in 2010 started the Prison of Peace Project with my colleague Laura Kaufer. And we started out training 15 women serving life and long-term sentences in the largest, most violent women's prison in the world how to be peacemakers to stop prison violence. Wow.

Okay, that's amazing.

That would—

that project was, was and is amazing. Talk about creating meaning in your life. You watch these people, incarcerated people, completely stop prison violence just because they have a tool set, right? Know what to do. Incredible.

Yeah, I love that. That's great. Good for you. Congratulations.

Yeah, well, thanks. That— it was— in fact, it was there my incarcerated students impetus that got me to write my fourth book, De-Escalate: How to Calm an Angry Person in 90 Seconds or Less, and then move these ideas out into the world.

How do we—

how literally do we make peace in our lives? And guess what? We do it by listening to emotions.

Right, exactly. I, I'm— I would, um, I'd love to write a book one day. That's— I, since I was in the fourth grade, that's what I really wanted to do. So, you know, I think, I think I would have a lot to offer in this, in this respect, right? I mean, you know, obviously not classically trained to do what I did. And, you know, I have crazy stories. I mean, I sat across the table from the buyer in Walmart and he was, you know, wanting— he wanted our products and, and he told us he wanted them at a price. And I said, well, you can't have them at that price because if I give it to you at that price, then I have to change everyone else's price. And I think that's going to be a problem. And he said, well, you know, I want it at this price. And I said, well, it was so nice meeting you. Here's my card and you can call me when you change your mind.

He was kind of blown away.

And right, with shaking knees, I walked away.

You said, come on.

Yes, it was Walmart. I walked away from Walmart. It was crazy. But yeah, a year later, you know, less than a year later, you know, he called and said, okay, you win. But I usually do. What can I say?

That's, that's fun. Ryu. I'm curious, what is— as you think about it, you've got all 25 years of business success. What is it that's unique about you that's made all this happen?

I think we created something that really was, was not out there. We, you know, our claim to fame in the hair care industry is this lice prevention product, which we've, we've made subsequently made different collections, but there was really nothing out there like it. So we, we created something that parents didn't just want, they needed. So I was able to sell the need. And I think it actually benefited me by not knowing how hard it was going to be. So I just thought it was fun, you know? I mean, I thought it was fun to call up Target and say, do you want my products? You know? And I just, I don't know. I think I was fearless right from the start. And I don't know, I know it sounds crazy, but I truly am a fourth generation entrepreneur. My great-grandfather started a flashlight and battery company in the Bronx, making batteries in his basement and selling them in a pushcart, like in the 1920s or early, or even before then, actually. And then my grandfather took over the business. We had all the government contracts during both World Wars. He has patents on, you know, some plastic injected whatevers. When our troops invaded Normandy, they all had Bright Star flashlights because they were floating. So my dad is a crazy entrepreneur. My father is 82 years old, and my father taught me about ChatGPT, artificial intelligence. He has an app that's coming out that is amazing. It's called My Personal Vault, and it's all your information gets put into one spot and it just gets farmed out. Like, if you're Applying for a mortgage or for an auto loan or insurance, you know, everything instead of like filling out the same form 102 times, it all gets, you know, populated. So he's amazing. So I think, I think I was just born to do this.

Wow.

So fearless sounds like a unique attribute. I guess you'd have to be fearless to be able to get up and do improv comedy.

Yeah, I did. I did standup for 6 years. I loved it. And then the greatest thing ever is my daughter who is at NYU said to me on Wednesday night, Mom, I think I'm going to go and do stand-up. I have succeeded. Every other mother would have a heart attack. I was just like, yes.

Well, I mean, there's so many lessons to be learned in that work because they're— getting the laugh is hard and failure is a second away. Oh, on the edge, right?

Every, every moment. I mean, I had food thrown at me once.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it was rough. There's nothing worse than like, you can hear the ice melting in a glass.

I know, I play jazz violin, so I understand.

You know, right? You just hit a bad note and you just feel like, oh, you know, that's great.

But that's part of the excitement, saying, all right, I don't know what's going to come out. Let's see what happens.

Exactly. Well, that's how I felt about growing the business. You know, I was always like, all right, well, what would happen if we try this? You know, I still do that. I don't believe— I think it sounds terrible, but I think people sometimes take it a little too seriously and it impedes them from moving forward. And I'm all about moving forward. We have another line of products called TBH Kids, and it's a tween personal care, right? Because the Fairy Tales customer is growing up. So I figured, well, I'm losing them because, you know, I've been around too long. So how can I sort of keep them in the fold? And we created this line 5 years ago and the packaging sort of look— does look like a text exchange. Busy. It's loud. It's very kid-friendly with emojis and whatnot. You know, fast forward 5 years, it's all online. It's doing well. Except these, you know, 10-year-olds are very vocal and they despise the packaging, despise it. And they're, I mean, literally sending us— if you have— I don't know if you're on TikTok, Doug, but you can go on our TikTok. I literally read them in some videos because they're hysterical. They truly are. I mean, God bless them. I mean, if I was their mother, I'd be a little upset, but whatever. So we decided that we were going to change. We're going to update the packaging. It's it was time for a refresh and everyone was freaking out. You know, how can you do that? You know, you have, you know, it takes so long and not everything can be changed at once. How are you going to do this? And I just said, we'll figure it out. We'll put it on the website. You know, the wipes are going to be ready in September and, you know, the shampoo will be ready in November. And, you know, I'm like, you know, curing cancer here, guys. It'll, it'll all work out.

How did the new packaging work out?

Not even out yet. Yeah, it hasn't even rolled out yet. But, you know, we're sort of teasing it out there. It'll be fine. You know, it's— yeah.

People— that's the thing about the internet. People get so laser-focused, tunnel vision on what's right in front of them that they lose— they can't see the forest through the trees.

Exactly. Exactly. It'll be fine. I'm not worried. We, we make good products. We have— I'm like, trust me, I haven't failed yet. I'm like, the only thing that's really failed in all this is my marriage. I got the rest of it.

What do you do? What do you do for fun?

What do I do for fun? I, I read a lot. I love to read. I go on lots of good hikes, and we go upstate. My boyfriend and I bought a place upstate, so we like to go up there. I spend a lot of time in the city and hang out with my daughter who's there and wander New York and see shows and movies. Typical, nothing crazy.

Urban existence. Good for you.

Yeah, I know. I'm not really—

I—

New York State, you know, it's about an hour and 45 minutes where we go, and that's as rural as I get, you know. But it's still on the Hudson, so I can just— I can probably float back if I needed to.

Well, it is pretty up there.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

It is. I spent 4 years at Dartmouth, so I was—

Ah, so you know. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's nice.

I'm a California boy, so—

I get it. I'm an East Coast girl. I get it.

Well, I never— I mean, I grew up in LA.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, I grew up in LA and then I got out of there as soon as I could, went all the far away as I could, which is—

Yeah, Dartmouth is pretty rural.

Right. Especially Southern California. And then when I came back, I moved down here to Central California and lived in the mountains.

Nice. That's so beautiful. We have a friend in Santa Ynez.

Santa Ynez, right up just north of Santa Barbara. Yeah. I frequently, my wife's family lives, her brother's family down in Santa Barbara.

So we're there.

Ah, that's beautiful there. Santa Barbara is really nice. I'm like, I could live in Santa Barbara.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, one more question. I'll let you go.

What's one thing about yourself, Risa, that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Usually don't talk about my standup.

Really?

Yeah, because it, so, you know, sometimes people, no, I noticed a long time ago they don't take me as seriously perhaps as they should because they think I'm a comedian. I don't know.

Yeah, I see that as a major strength.

Well, I think when you— if you understand how to run a business and grow a business and be a CEO, you would look at it as a strength. But I think people just— they want to talk about comedy and, you know, my old friendship with Dave Chappelle, you know. Right. Yeah, I don't know. It's funny. I'm probably an open book. So there's probably not really much out there.

If I were to intuit into it, what would I feel? I don't know. You got, you got, you got a very strong intuitive sense. I'll call it that because that's not the way that what it really is. It's really tapping into the energies of the universe, I think, that you tap into. You don't talk about that much, but that's what's going on with you.

Yeah, I'm very, I'm very aware. I, I can, my boyfriend makes fun of me. I, I, there's nothing I like more than to talk to people and, and just see who they are and, you know, feel them and see them and get into them and, you know, and some, some are interesting and some aren't and, you know, so be it. It's all a good time.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been such an enjoyable conversation.

Yeah, I, I'm going to start reading your books. I'm really intrigued. So thank you. You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithMarkKeller. Leaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team.

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