221 - Understanding the Power of Reflection and Redefining Success with CHC: Creating Healthier Communities' Jean Accius

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Jean Axius, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO of a company, uh, of an organization, nonprofit called Creating Healthy Communities. And your leadership takes you around the country helping people and communities develop high— better access to health and health services and helping people live healthier lives. What a wonderful job. Thanks for coming on the show today.

Thank you so much, Doug, for having me. I'm deeply honored to be having this conversation with you today.

Thanks. I know that I interviewed you with Authority Magazine, which is why you're here today. Because that's how I found you. And I know that you grew— you were born in Haiti, so why don't you start and tell us a little bit about your backstory?

Doug, I'm deeply honored to share this story. I was born in Haiti, raised by my grandmother for the first 4 years of my life. And during that course of time, I had a front row seat to what it looked like to sacrifice, to have grit, to be innovative and creative in terms of really thinking about how you make ends meet. And I give a lot of credit to my grandmother for what I saw during those fundamental years of my upbringing in Haiti. She made the decision to take me on when my mother made the tough decision that she was not in a position to take care of me. And my grandmother took me on. And as you can imagine, an older adult becoming a parent again, but she took care of me. When the sun rose, she was up and out the house into the marketplace. And she would come home in the evenings when the sun set, after a long day of working, trying to bring food to the family and making sure I had clothes to wear and making sure I had access to education, particularly at that young age. My grandmother now is 100 years old, Doug. She's 100. She is still alive. She has dementia. And I recently had an opportunity to see her back in January. I thought it was very important for me to bring my family to see her as part of the new year. And in the moments where she could actually recognize who I was, she kept on saying, "Continue to be strong. Continue to be strong. Continue to be strong." And that right there has really been the legacy and testimony of my grandmother, of very strong woman. Didn't have a lot, but she had a lot of wisdom. She had a lot, uh, she has a lot of wisdom, and she has a grit to persevere regardless of the odds. And that is a fundamental trait that I'm deeply grateful for each and every day.

Wow. So you migrated to the United States. I think you were 4 years old when that happened.

That is correct. Yes.

And then hopefully you had a reasonable upbringing. Eventually though, you got to go to college.

Yes.

And then tell us about that. You went to college, you got your master's degree, you got your PhD. Just give us a quick snapshot of what that was like.

Absolutely, Doug. I know that your listeners are executives and leaders across industries and sectors. I might be a little biased, but I had the great fortune of attending one of the best institutions in the entire country, if not the world. And that is, uh, the Florida State University. I was a first-generation student, went into FSU, got my undergrad in business, my master's in public policy and aging, which kind of created the path, if you will, for where I am today. And what I mean by that is the fact that while I was in Tallahassee, which is the capital of the state of Florida, I had an opportunity to work for Secretary of Aging under the Bush administration. And I had an opportunity to actually see how policy is made and executed and implemented. And I realized very quickly the difference between policy and politics, the role that I had to play in navigating those two pillars in a way that preserved my job security. But in all seriousness, that's where I really fell in love with policy because so much of our quality of life is impacted by policy decisions each and every day. Yeah, it's—

go ahead.

Interesting. This weekend we hosted a wedding for my niece here on our land here in Yosemite, and my oldest nephew brought his family out from Tallahassee. He's a deputy secretary. I'm not sure what agency, but he runs the whole Medicare Medicaid program in Florida right now. So I did a similar track.

They—

I'm sorry, I just wanted to say that as an aside. It was pretty interesting listening to him talk about policies. Right now he's wrestling with Big Pharma over medicine, medical bill, not medicine and pharmaceutical building. Yeah, really interesting. Our lives, as a lawyer, I can tell you that policy decisions are— run our lives, and most people are completely unaware of how all that flows.

And that's exactly right. I remember, and I can say this now, that the Secretary allowed me to lead this major initiative across the state. It used to be called Ambassadors for Aging. And I realized, and the initiative was designed to do a couple of things. One was to really educate older adults around civic engagement, around the legislative process and how they can get involved and make sure that their voices are heard. I quickly realized that I was galvanizing this group of amazing volunteers, oftentimes coincidentally, when there were policy choices that didn't necessarily bode well for them. And then I would truck myself along with the secretary to the governor's office to explain why are they getting all these phone calls from these older adults? Outrage. But to your point, Doug, it, it policy impacts, influences every dimension of our lives in some shape or way. And I quickly realized how one's values might get translated into policy and how that might impact entire communities and systems. And oftentimes I saw that there were some winners and oftentimes some potential losers. And I dedicated my life to really thinking about, particularly in the context of health, in healthcare. How do we ensure that we have equitable policies that would allow any single person, regardless of where they live, regardless of their zip code, to be able to have an opportunity to live a longer, more productive, and healthier life? I think of longevity and life expectancy and the factors that influence how long you will live as time. And time is so expensive, Doug, because it's the only non-renewable resource we have. You can innovate and replicate every other source except for time. Once you've spent the time, you can never get it back. And for so many people in our country, because of zip codes, because of the lack of access or lack of options or the lack of opportunity or accommodation of all three, their time is limited, and that actually impacts all of us as a society, as a community, as well as businesses.

So you got your master's degree in around aging and the policy of aging. And then you, did you go jump immediately into a PhD program?

I did.

I did.

I fell in love with having to the whole policymaking process and really understanding policy. And I wanted to come to DC. I said, there's no better place. To understand policy implementation and, and what that all entails than being at the nation's capital. So I was very fortunate to receive a presidential scholarship to attend American University for my PhD program in public policy and got a front row seat.

So, did you work in government as you were working on your PhD program?

I did, I did. I, um, had an opportunity to work for the DC Department of Motor Vehicles, and in fact, I was part of a small team working with the DC Department of Motor Vehicles on the REAL ID Act implementation.

Okay.

Uh, the head of the Department of Motor Vehicles was actually the president of the Association of Motor Vehicles across the country, and part of this was As you can imagine, after September 11th, the REAL ID Act was passed, and the agencies across the country were trying to understand the implications, the cost implications of implementing the REAL ID Act. How much would it cost? What system changes would need to take place? In part because of the fact that they wanted to seek federal dollars for the implementation of what they're being asked to implement. And I had the great pleasure I had the great pleasure of actually working on that initiative, both for the DC District as well as for the Association of Motor Vehicles across the country, to quantify what the cost implications would entail in order to implement the legislation.

Interesting.

Would you finally do your dissertation on—

so I did my dissertation on, uh, the Social Security. It's interesting, as we're having this conversation, I, I, I'm seeing a common thread here in terms of being able to take diverse perspectives and integrate them in a way that looks at issues across a lifespan perspective. But I had an opportunity during— I'm sorry for one second. I had an opportunity during the State of the Union address where I was listening to the State of the Union address in 2006, 2006. And it was President Bush. And he talked about reforming Social Security, uh, because of the inequities that existed into the system. And oftentimes, Doug, I am in Washington, DC. Yes, I was in grad school. I know it's very geeky to be watching the State of the Union address, but that's how I got my idea for my dissertation. I wanted to know what are the factors that impact people's decisions to retire? How does that vary? What are the implications for some of these reforms that were being discussed? So I credit my dissertation to watching the State of the Union address. So you just never know. You never know what idea might come about.

So you finish your PhD, then what happens?

You go into policy.

You're working in the government again.

During, while I was working on my PhD, I had an amazing opportunity to work as an intern for AARP. And I was actually working on some policy issues for the organization at the time. Given some of the proposals that were being discussed in Congress. The team was— I learned a lot during that process that I was fortunate to be extended an opportunity to join the team full-time. So I actually started working at AARP well before I finished my PhD as a senior analyst. And fast forward, I started as an intern. I became a senior analyst. I then had an opportunity to work for the Obama administration, implementing the Affordable Care Act. At the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

That had to be interesting.

Which, oh, Doug, we have— how much time do we have?

A lot of time.

It was an absolutely fascinating experience. But I say this to say that I fundamentally believe that in many cases, my life's journey has been one around purpose and intentionality. And the opportunity with working with AARP, which started off as an intern, I eventually became the vice president of the team that I was interning for.

Wow.

And then became a senior vice president of the organization, standing up their global thought leadership, international strategy across the world. So it's been an amazing journey. And throughout all of that, whether it's working at the state level, working for the local level government, or working for the federal government, or working for a major nonprofit organization like AARP, the common theme throughout all of those experiences, Doug, has always been around What is the person's lived experience? What is their interactions with our systems or the lack thereof in terms of healthcare? The United States spends more than on healthcare than any other industrialized nation.

I know. And we can question whether or not that money's being well spent or not.

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. When you look at the outcomes, given the amount that's being spent, not that great. So I've always been passionate because your health is so fundamental, right?

You don't have good health, you don't have anything.

You don't have anything. And I, I know in my deepest core— and you mentioned your niece's wedding— at the end of the day, that's what life is about.

That's right.

It's creating those moments of connection, those moments that are meaningful to you. And anything that gets in the way of that, we should all be outraged by, right?

So what is it that gets you up in the morning today and gets you—

that gets me excited? And what I— my North Star is really thinking about how can we change systems to change lives. Because people wake up each and every day, whether it's in the context of our healthcare system, whether it's in the context of the lack of a long-term care system, really think about how do we ensure that people have opportunities to live a decent quality of life as they define it. I know that's lofty. I know that's big. I know that's aspirational, but I was raised by my grandmother and I think One thing I learned is particularly when you're engaging with older adults, as you get older, you start to self-actualize. You think about your legacy and you think about, are you leaving the world in a much better place? And now my grandmother never talked to me like that, but because I had an opportunity to stand at her feet and listen to her stories and understand her challenges, as well as the things that she enjoyed doing. What I learned from those interactions of working with my grandmother or working with older adults or just interacting with people is the fact that at the end of the day, there are common themes that we all aspire for.

Right.

And that's what makes me excited. That's what gets me up in the morning, because whether it's driving and you're at a red light and you look over and you could clearly see someone's distress. Over some situation, or you're trying to get your kids to school and all of that. But it's really thinking about—

you're right, we have a lot of shared experience, a lot of shared experiences.

And so, so for me, that's what excites me, but also that's what gets me up in the morning, because I, I know, having been raised in South Florida, having been raised by a family that is spiritually rich, but I have had limited resources. I'm grateful I never went for not, meaning the fact that if I needed something, I was able to ascertain it. But I know that for many people, that's not the case. I was in Atlanta over the weekend for a meeting, and it struck me how even in downtown Atlanta, and we're seeing this in California and other places because of the affordable housing crisis in our country, because of the rising prices of housing, that we're also seeing significant increases in individuals that are without homes. And it just so happened, Doug, I was saying, as I was in the car, I typically call my kids right before they're about to go to sleep and we do a goodnight prayer together. Literally, as I was doing the prayer, I was in the Uber passing the street downtown Atlanta, and all you saw were rows of meals. It just hurt me. It just hurt me to the core. When we talk about health, it's not just the clinical. It is, do you have access to housing? Do you have transportation? Do you have access to a livable working job? Do you have access to education? Do you have access to be integrated in your community and to be civically engaged? Are you lonely? Social isolation is a killer. So how do we, particularly in this environment, create greater moments of connectivity? I can go on and on, but that's what really—

That's where your passion is, obviously.

That's where my passion is.

Those are the right questions to be asking, I think. What do you think it is, Gene, that is unique about you that you bring to the table that has allowed you to move the needle on these issues?

For me, that's an excellent question, Doug. I think my experience having worked in the public, private, and nonprofit sectors and understanding the limitations and the benefits of each, and then also understanding how we can leverage the tools in the toolbox, if you will, to leverage these different sectors in a way to drive systemic change. What I mean by that is the fact that you heard me say earlier that these issues around health, and the inequities that we see in our society and how that is driven by potentially where one might live in terms of their zip code. According to Deloitte, it cost us $322 billion in 2022. Listen to this. Health inequities, the fact that there's these disparities, cost the United States $322 billion in 2022. If we do absolutely nothing to solve these issues, it's going to go up to a trillion dollars. By 2040. So the other way to think about this is the fact that a healthy community means a healthy population, which means a healthy family unit, which means healthy workers, which means a vibrant business, a vibrant economy. So you can't necessarily tease out the health from the economics. And one last point I'll just quickly mention, Kellogg actually did some research and they said that if we were to close these gaps, If we were to ensure that every person in every neighborhood had the same amount of time to grow old with their family members, their spouses, their partners, to watch their grandchildren grow old, what we'll see is an $8 trillion boom to our economy by 2050. You'll see about $450 billion in annual tax revenue and then $100 billion in annual state and local tax revenue. And you might say, wow, Why? Think about it. When individuals are excluded from the broader economy, it impacts our economic growth. It hurts everyone. I say that to say that the health and economics of this work is so critically important, which is what we're doing at CHC. We're putting the community at the center of helping to drive these solutions and taking into account their lived experiences as a factor to drive systemic change.

We could talk about this for hours, and I do need to say this is so obvious to me what you're talking about. I've worked here in Central California on the homeless problem a decade and a half ago, and the project was— it was doomed to failure. I didn't know it at the time because there are certain quarters where there's resistance to the idea of creating healthy communities. The government should not be involved in this, that the people should just bootstrap themselves. And if they're born in poverty, they can get themselves out of it. Utterly wrong-headed ideas, but still out there. And the economic argument that you make, you would think would take the most ardent pro-business, anti-socialist person and say it makes perfect sense that we invest in our communities. And yet they're the people that get up and say, no, we're not going to do that. And I know you see this, especially at the federal level. How do you respond to that?

So one of the challenges that we're facing, and I think it's also one of the biggest opportunities for us as a country, is to really get at the root cause of what we're seeing in terms of this issue. And the root cause of what we're seeing, Doug, is one of fear. Fear is a strong emotion, right? It is. Fear is one that will, unless you moderate it and acknowledge it and understand it can paralyze you towards action. And it can also allow you to tolerate things that you would have never tolerated before. And I think part of what we need to do is address that root cause of fear, meaning the fact that we're interdependent, not an independent country.

There's no such thing as the rugged individualist. Never has been.

Never has been. Never has been. And I think that what we saw, particularly with COVID and in very stark terms, was the fact that what you did in California impacted— the decisions you made in California impacted me in DC. The decisions you made in DC impacted you in California or around the world. Meaning the fact that we are inter— true independence is recognizing our dependence on others.

That's great.

And I think part of what we also need to do, you heard me mention earlier, around addressing the issue of isolation. Is the fact that we gotta get back to community, which is why I love the work that we do at Creating Healthier Communities, meaning the fact that we may not agree on every single issue, but we have to create the space to have these conversations.

That's where I come in, teaching people how to listen. That's where I teach. That's why I'm all about what I am, teaching people how to listen in a very deep way so that the speaker feels heard and validated. That's exactly your point. Don't have to agree, but if people feel heard, they can usually find common ground to work together.

That is, that is exactly right.

But it's a listening that has to happen. And to your point, again, the reason why people don't listen is because they're afraid to listen.

Yes, they're fearful. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Crash, but it's one of my favorite movies of all time. But it starts off early in the beginning of this movie with two young kids of different backgrounds. There's a mother and a kid in a candy shop. Another mother and kid walks in and the two kids start playing together, never met each other before. It strikes me that over time, there are messages and signals that says, "You're different from me." You see this with kids, they naturally oftentimes go play with each other.

They don't see me.

Exactly right. And what I love about this movie Crash is the fact that the narrator says something along the lines of, we are so busy living our lives, doing our own thing, that sometimes nature forces us to crash in order to actually see each other. Wow.

Oh, I love that.

And I think what we're— to your point, the ability to listen, or as Covey would say, seek first to understand before being understood. Is something that we desperately need. It's critical to our social fabric as a democracy and as a society, and one that we're significantly lacking. But that's the opportunity for us.

That's right. And that's why the trajectory of my career from being a trial lawyer for 22 years, battling in the courtroom, hundreds of trials, to leaving the practice of law, getting my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies, becoming a peacemaker to help people resolve conflict without battle, to today, teaching people how to never have a fight or argument again in their lives by the way they listen. And that's the trajectory. And I see the need, the deep need for this, which is why I, I'm a, I proselytize wherever I can.

Thank you, Doug.

You're welcome. We're both on our journeys of service and it's just, it's wonderful to talk to people like you who are aligned with this. I know our time is running short here and you're a busy guy. I don't wanna, we could talk all day, I can tell. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

That's an excellent, deep philosophical question, Doug. One thing about myself, I think for me, a couple of things. One is the fact that I've learned over time that I'm an introvert. And it took me a while to learn that, Doug, in part because of the fact that I would come home and I'll be so exhausted and my wife would say, "You're an introvert." I was like, "I'm not an introvert. I love people." Rather be alone.

And read a book than go to a party with a huge— or go to a concert, a Taylor Swift concert with 10,000 people.

Way on too—

want to know what's really interesting? I've done over 200 and— yeah, I think you're around interview episode number 220. 219 of my guests have been introverts. I've only had one extrovert on this show.

Really?

Really. Isn't that interesting?

That is very interesting. I say that to say that as I get older, I am becoming more and more comfortable reflecting, taking the time to understand myself, uh, understand the things that I value, because I think in this hustle and bustle of life, uh, and maybe some of your listeners might relate to this, is that we may not oftentimes take the time and space to step back and just be. So my theme for 2024 is BE. And you say, why is that? And I said, and the reason why I chose that is because of the fact that I think at different life stages, society tells you this is what success is— that next promotion, that next opportunity. So you're constantly on this grinding culture, the hamster wheel, the hamster wheel, right? And because you're trying to meet these markers, whatever these markers might mean. And I think where I am now is saying, actually, I need to make those decisions in terms of what success means for me. Exactly. And at what expense am I doing this? And is it worth it? And I think that Doug has taken courage as a leader to do, in part because of the fact that you're on this hamster wheel, right? Next job. By the time you get that next job, you think about the next promotion. So just to be in this moment, to be having this conversation, to be fully present and to be okay without worrying about the next. 'Cause at the end of the day, all we have is right now.

Right.

So that is where I am, Doug. Good for you.

Good for you. And you're right, as you grow older, you become more reflective and you can begin to sort out what's important and what's not important.

That's exactly right.

And that gives me great happiness. I wasn't always happy. I must— I've never— every day I get happier and happier, but that really didn't start until my mid-50s. And it took a lot of being to get there.

I was having dinner with a close friend of mine who is a lawyer. You would really be appreciative of this. Extremely successful in Atlanta while I was there for a meeting. And in the course of our conversation, and I've known him for 20+ years, I've seen his evolution. And I said to him, and we were talking and he said exactly what you just said, Doug. He said to me, he said, you know what, Gene, I'm trying to figure out what happiness is. Now this is someone on the external—

on the external trappings of success and doesn't— can't figure out happiness.

It can— could not—

you know what it is, and I know what it is. And for those who don't know what it is, it's learning how to serve other people.

It's learning how to serve other people. That's exactly—

learn how to serve other people in a really meaningful way. That's when you truly become liberated and happy.

That's exactly right.

That's such a simple lesson, but such a hard lesson to learn.

That's exactly right. We're a work in progress.

I know, always.

Thank you so much for your time today.

This has been a wonderful conversation. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Doug, and thank you for your service and thank you for your leadership and thank you for our time today.

You're more than welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team.

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