227 - A Creative Evolution and Artistic Journey to Business Triumph with ZEBRA's Jenn Thatcher

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Jen Thatcher, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO and founder of a company called Zebra. Which can be found at yayzebra.com. Welcome to the show.

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Great. Why don't we start off with just a little bit about your backstory? I know you're an artist and you had a, were very successful in that for a while before you turned to the company that you're running now. Tell us a little bit about the story.

Yes. It's definitely been a journey. Actually, before I was an artist, I was a regional vice president for a Wall Street firm working in the corporate world, traveling extensively. And then when I had my third child— my husband is a pilot, so we were crossing paths and both traveling at the same time— we decided I needed a different path. So I like to work, I like to stay busy, but I really wanted to stay home with my children. I fell into an art career by accident. I painted a painting that I hung in my house, and people kept saying, where'd you get that? And I was like, oh, I just, I painted that with some leftover paints from my wedding and a canvas I had laying in the garage. No big deal. But it kept happening. And then I just decided maybe I could sell that and actually make a little money. And so I put it up for sale and within just a few minutes I had the painting sold and I had about 25 people that wanted one. And so I took orders and by the end of that month I had sold 200 paintings. And 2 months later I had sold 2,000 paintings.

Wow.

At the end of those 2 months, I said, I guess I could call myself an artist now. And really my art career trajectory just went up from there. Um, it expanded so quickly from Dallas-Fort Worth and then throughout the country and then internationally. I have clients in Egypt and Dubai and an international wallpaper line that's hung in Japan and all over the world. So it's been such a blessing. And then my son, who was 16 at the time, started having migraines and we were taking him to the neurologist and they couldn't really explain it. And then ultimately one day at school, he started just texting me over and over saying, "Mom, I can't see. I don't know what's going on." And so I picked him up and I said, "Okay, I know they say that this is migraines, but I'm just going to take you to the ER because this is just a little too strange." We're just going to get that MRI checked off the list. And 13 hours in the ER and they came back and said my son had a mass on his brain. And it was just one of those moments where you're just frozen in time. I was just going there to get that checked off the list, not for them to tell me that he had a brain tumor. But I looked at him at that moment and I said, buddy, I don't know what this is, but I know that, I know that God will use it and we will figure this out. So we traveled around all over the country trying to get some explanation of this brain tumor. It was very strange, very different. Every neurosurgeon we went to couldn't really understand or articulate why this tumor was causing the symptoms that it was. And so some people said to operate, some people said don't. Ultimately, he had brain surgery and we found out from his surgeon Afterwards, he said, I searched the medical journals and the reason we couldn't figure this out is because this brain tumor is so rare. We think it's right around 1 in 24, maybe 24 other cases of this type of brain tumor.

In the history of medicine, 24 cases.

Yes. Wow. It sent me down this trajectory of, okay, if this is not a genetic thing, because it's so rare and there's nobody else in our family that has anything like this. Then why, why does he have this? And my other two children had similar but different health stories, both being very rare. So three out of three of my kids just had really strange stuff going on. And so I've always been just very holistic and organic in my approach to food and the type of products that we use. But after my son's journey, I sat down with everything that we had been using started with toothpaste and all the things that we use on a daily basis. And I looked at the labels and they all looked good, but I went ingredient by ingredient and I searched. And what I found was so disturbing. These products that I thought were clean and nontoxic were actually having a lot of things lurking in them that were detrimental to health. And I just felt like a punch in the stomach. Maybe I could have done better. Maybe this is something that was caused by the environment or something that was caused from products that we use. And I don't feel comfortable using any of these products anymore. And I can't find any products that really meet my standards. It was just that moment where I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to have to make it myself. And if I have this problem, then I'm sure other people have this problem too, that they don't feel like what they're using is quite clean enough or quite effective enough or They're not really sure if it's non-toxic, but it looks good. So that's when Zebra was born.

And so you, how do you come up with the formulations?

Really just a lot of research, putting pen to paper, taking products that I loved, but then extracting the ingredients that I didn't love and researching ingredients that are just highly effective and non-toxic to the human body. One of the things Things that I love about the Zebra line, like for the fragrances of the deodorants, we're using all essential oils because essential oils are such a powerful ingredient to use for health, but they smell amazing. And fragrance is just something that can be an endocrine disruptor and detrimental to your health. So no fragrance in any of our line. And just every ingredient has been just completely researched and sourced from trusted suppliers. So we've just been so careful and thoughtful about every single thing that we put in there and comparing it to what's on the market and just differentiating ourselves in every way that we can.

All right. So is the company B2C, web-based e-commerce company, or are you distributing?

We are not distributing to any retail partners at this time because of the ingredient quality that we're using. We honestly just don't have the margins to be in retail. We are direct-to-consumer at this point. For example, there's a lot of deodorants on the market that use baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, on the ingredient label. And it is either chemically mined or naturally mined from the earth. And they don't have to tell you that on the label. So you've got baking soda, it appears to be a natural ingredient, but our baking soda is water mined, which is the natural way, but it costs 100% more than the baking soda that's, that's in the other deodorant. And you wouldn't necessarily know that from reading the label, but you can just be assured that Zebra has done that due diligence to make sure that every ingredient is as pure as it can possibly be.

How have you done? It sounds like you— I think you've got the Midas touch. Your art business took off. How's Zebra doing? Is it taking off too?

It's doing great. I think built a rather large following through my art business, and I did share the health journey of my son. On that page. So people have watched us walk through that and they know that I am a non-compromiser. They know that I have always been an advocate for healthy living. And I, it was scary to leave the comfort of a business that I had built that what had become just easy. It was on autoplay. I really wasn't seeking out new customers. They just came to me and everything was great. I did feel called to do this. I felt a need to do it out of just love for people and love for health and trying to help people navigate a better way and a better daily system.

Do you still do the artwork or is that now gone? That's past.

I'm doing it a little bit. I thought I would retire completely, but I do find myself sneaking into the studio just because I enjoy it so much. So I do it a little bit here and there. It's been a little bit of a stress reliever while building this brand because I did walk into this having no experience in manufacturing personal care products or formulating them or anything. But I was up for the challenge. But I, I think I was a little naive. I'm an eternal optimist. So for me, if it can go right, it's going to go right. But a lot of things have gone wrong. I ended up getting fired from a few suppliers just because of my rigorous standards and asking of questions. Not every supplier wanted to maintain the level of quality or source the ingredients the way I wanted them sourced from the suppliers I wanted them sourced from. So a lot of them got frustrated with me along the way and That kind of led me down a path of getting so far with a supplier and then having to start all over again. And so that was really frustrating. So sinking back into art here and there has been fun and it's been a blessing to be able to do that too.

Do you, do you have a, a staff that work with you or is it all just you?

I have had to bring in some people to help. It was way more work than I even imagined. So I have pulled in some, um, trusted business associates to help me in launching Zebra. However, Zebra is fully self-funded, so all of the brand-making decisions have been mine.

Wow.

So when you think about it today, what is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to start working?

I would say just the belief that bringing this product to marketplace will ultimately improve people's overall health. I don't want anyone to suffer. I don't want families to go to the ER and have the moment that I did with my son. I think our health is so closely tied to what we consume with food and personal care products, and I think that people are doing the best that they can and they're reading the labels and they're still being tricked. So I wake up every morning just excited that Zebra is going to be a completely transparent alternative, a brand that people can trust and know that this brand just won't stand for any kompromis.

Hmm. And you've got a following for the brand now.

We're building one. Yes. I have my following from my art business and it's coming over to Zebra.

Good. Good. So what do you think, Jen, is unique about you that has allowed you to be successful in all of these different business ventures?

I think it's a few things. I think it is my optimism. I believe that people born in America just have unending opportunity to do things. I don't necessarily have the education for any venture that I have entered into, but I have the will. I have the hard work. No one will work harder than me. I think there's been people along the way who have questioned my qualifications for certain things, especially this company. Like, why are you qualified to build a brand like this? You've never had manufacturing experience. You're just a mom. But I'm a businesswoman, and I believe I'm uniquely qualified as a mom. I'm a mom of children who were harmed by toxic products. And there's nobody that's going to care more about what they put in their products than someone that doesn't want that to ever happen again.

I've interviewed a lot of people. I think you're in episode 220 somewhere. And I would say that 3/4 of them are just like you in the sense that one, they are passionate. Two, they didn't know what they didn't have. They don't have a business degree or anything. They started out with just an idea, and made it work just out of pure stubbornness and persistence and dedication. And it's amazing how many people can be financially and commercially successful as leaders without going through all the hoops that you think that people have to go through in order to be an entrepreneur. It just— it's astounding to me. To watch this impressive lineup of people. You're just a perfect example of that, of someone who had— Absolutely. A, a solution that you wanted to solve, didn't know anything, educated yourself, and now you have success. And I think it, to your point, that's the beauty of living in this country. There are a lot of people who say this country's a mess. It's not a mess. There's more opportunity here than you can possibly imagine. And you're, you're proof of that, that all you have to do is just be disciplined and persistent and stubborn and stick to your integrity and your standards, and you can be successful. So good job.

This is true, and I thank you. I do believe when you have people's best interest in mind, um, you'll be successful. So I could have stayed in my art career. I probably would've been happier just from an ease perspective, cuz this has been pretty stressful. I think I've aged a few extra years over the last couple years, but, but I do believe that God called me to, to pursue this business and I'm all about just having someone's best interest in mind 100% of the time, no matter who they are in every business I've ever done. So I do feel like when people know that about you, they want to work for you, they want to advocate for you, and they trust you. And this is a brand that can be trusted.

Yeah. So I'm curious, how important is empathy in the work that you do with this company?

It's so important. The Bible calls us to love your neighbor as you love yourself. And that is one of our guiding principles. From every interaction that I have on a daily basis with my vendors, my suppliers, and ultimately with my customers, I want what's best for them. I want to put the best product in their hand that's possible, and I want to do it in a way that honors God and honors his people. And that's it. So that's who we are. But I just— that's the whole— that's the whole guiding light of this brand, is loving people.

And listening, this show is called Listening with Leaders, so I like to talk about listening. How would you describe your listening skills?

I think everyone can improve on listening skills, but I like to think that I'm a good listener. Uh-huh.

How do you think— we're not taught how to listen, so how do you learn how to listen?

I think there's a lot of different ways to learn how to listen, especially as a business owner. You get the silent feedback of what's selling and what's not. You get feedback from, from customers, whether it be good or, good or bad. But I think as long as you can listen and receive what people are saying and reflect on it and don't take it personally, I think that's the best way to listen. I think that can be a challenge for business owners, especially when they've worked so hard to build something, when they get negative feedback. But I always want to take that negative feedback, if and when I receive that, and take it and use it for the good.

How do you gain that skill? That's not something we're born with.

I don't really know the answer to that, but I think it comes with humility. Knowing that not everybody knows everything, right? And I'm no expert at everything. And so I'm willing to take feedback, whatever it may be, from any source and think about it, meditate on it, and hopefully use it to better myself, better my company, and just be a better person or make my company better in any way.

What do you do when you encounter poor listeners?

Well, I have children. I have 3 poor listeners that live with me. So, no, just kidding. My kids are actually pretty good. But I think anybody that has kids understands how to encounter poor listeners. That's a struggle for me. I think just really articulating what you need from that person and Being thorough and over-communicating when you have a poor listener is very important. Putting things in writing is also very important. I've had several situations along the way with the manufacturing where things have been communicated via phone, but I always make sure to follow up via email because I have seen in the past that this particular person isn't necessarily executing things the way that I'm hoping for. So just over-communicating and also having them repeat back to, you know, what, what did I just say? Do you understand? Do you have any questions? I love asking, do you have any questions? Because that's a great way to understand if you've communicated what you're trying to communicate to that person.

Yeah, you were just talking about a process known as speak, check, reflect. Tell me what I just told you, and find out whether or not they're really listening to you.

Yes, yes.

Because it's amazing how people don't hear because they're not listening, and it creates a lot of problems. It's one of the peacemaking techniques that I teach, teaching people. And it seems very awkward because we're not used to having people repeat back what we say. But there are times when that becomes really important, when you've got to have clear communication. Absolutely. And it's like we don't have—

absolutely, I will say communication, yeah, such a valuable skill.

People downplay it. It's like they feel it's stupid to do that because they make the assumption that they hear what another person is saying when in fact they can't because they're filtering out stuff. I was just doing a mediation the other day, and one person said something, and I said, just reflect back what was just said. Completely different, like not even close, right? No wonder they're in conflict, right? Because they're not listening. Sure. So absolutely pretty interesting stuff. One more question, and then I, I'll let you go because I know you're really busy.

What is it—

what's one thing about yourself, Chen, that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Oh gosh, that's a tough one. I'm unafraid to fail.

Afraid to fail?

I'm completely unafraid to fail.

Fearless.

So I do not mind at all, as long as I have given it my best.

That is—

I think that has enabled me to transition to all of these different things because I'm gonna try, and if it fails— but it won't fail for a lack of hard work and dedication. It might fail for another reason, but I'm not afraid.

That is one of the most powerful attributes a person can hold, is to be fearless. And to be not afraid of failure. And I think that holds a lot of people back. This is— they're so afraid they're going to fail that they can't take the risk to move forward, and so they remain stuck in their lives. So good for you. Where'd you pick that one up?

Thank you.

Where'd you pick that up?

I just believe that we only get one chance. We get one life. We get one life here. And so you might as well give it a try, no matter what you want to do, because what's the worst hap— you know, what's the worst thing that can happen if you fail? You learn from it.

Exactly. Thank you so much, Jen. This has been a great conversation. You're an amazing woman, and I'm not gonna wish you best of luck because you're already succeeding. You've already succeeded, and things are only gonna be brighter for you in the future. So thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me. I hope you have a great day.

Thank you.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.