232 - The Impact of Genuine Listening on Relationships and Leadership with Planet DDS' Eric Giesecke

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Eric Isakow, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO of a company called Planet DDS. Which can be found at planetdds.com. And what you guys do is provide software platforms for dental practices around the world. Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Let's start off. I always like to start off with, for my audience, a little bit about your backstory. How did you get to where you are today?

So I joined Planet DDS in 2015 when we acquired the company through what's called a search fund. A search fund is a single-purpose vehicle intended to acquire and operate a single business. So you get super focused, super excited about one single company. You go buy the company and then you move to wherever the company is to run it. And when we were looking at all different types of companies, a partner, an old friend of mine and I in the search fund, everything from commercial landscaping to oil field services all across the board. And we came across a dental software company in Southern California that had built a very mature product for what are called DSOs or dental support organizations. So multi-site kind of healthcare. Completely cloud native, very modern with a view towards where the industry was going related to being in the cloud and being enterprise grade and stumbled upon the business, met the founder of the business. He was very concerned about making sure he found the right buyer for the business because he cared a ton about the employees, cared a ton about the company, got to know him super well, got really excited about— he stuck around for about a year and a half after the transaction to help us move through it and, and then just joined the company in 2015, moved out to California and have been the CEO ever since.

Good for you. And you guys are based down in Orange County, Irvine, Newport? Yep.

Irvine, California.

Irvine.

Okay.

Yep. I grew up in Southern California. I know it well.

Oh, nice.

What part? I grew up in San Marino.

Oh, cool. Very cool.

Yep. Never went back. Went to Dartmouth College, came back, went to law school up north, moved down here to Central California. I live just south of Yosemite National Park now.

Oh, very pretty. Good part of the state.

Yep. I've still got, I've still got family in Southern California. My wife has family in Santa Barbara in Northern California. So, so I'm cur— I'm just, this random thought came in my head. I'm watching hedge fund people come in and private equity people come in and buy up big medical practices. Is, is that kind of consolidation happening in the dental business too?

Very much. I'd say dental is probably a bit further behind some of the other healthcare verticals when it comes to consolidation, but for all the same reasons, the benefit of scale, the benefit of standardizing service, patient care, some of the operational efficiencies around centralizing services for the actual clinician so that A doctor doesn't have to necessarily worry about back office things, can focus primarily on patient care. It's happening. It's just probably, I would say, 10 years behind what's happened in other medical.

And how does that consolidation affect your business?

So we offer a cloud-based practice management software and other mission-critical kind of system of record software. So you think imaging, think the dental x-rays that you take in an office, think about the scheduler and all of the things that run the office. You become multi-sider as you consolidate. Being on multiple systems is untenable. The systems don't talk to each other. The patient record doesn't travel. It's very hard to pull data off of separate systems. So being on a one, one centralized cloud-based system makes scaling and operations so much easier. So that consolidation is very much driving, at least in our segment, a shift to the cloud.

Wow. So that's what I thought. I thought, well, I bet that kind— I bet hedge fund or private equity consolidation is gonna help you guys grow and scale. As practices are consolidated into single organizations, it's gonna be your platform that people are gonna choose to use. That's the hope anyways.

Yep. That's what we see. That's what we see happening a lot.

So you've been doing, tell us a little bit about your work before you, before you came into Planet DDS. It sounds, I looked at your LinkedIn profile. It looked like you, you have a lot of background in investing, private equity or VC investing, something like that. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah. Before I did any kind of investing on that side, I actually worked for an international construction company and lived in Afghanistan in 2004, which Wow. It was a, yeah, it was an amazing experience. I was over there. I remember we had just, we were rebuilding a lot of Afghanistan after the war through some, a lot of military contracts to the DOD and through USAID. And we were, is an American subsidiary of an Egyptian company. And because of the relative kind of religious type things of having lots of Muslims, construction folks in a country like Afghanistan where that was critical, I think, to be able to work with the local population. We were given a ton of work and we didn't have a lot of people. Not surprisingly, I was 24 at the time that were willing to move over there. So the CEO came to me and said, hey, do you want to go to Afghanistan? I said, do what? Because I don't know, let's go figure it out. I was like, sounds good. He goes, if you don't like it, you can come back. So I lived over there for a year and was integral to a lot of the, a lot of the construction efforts. Great experience, learned a ton, worked a ton because there's nothing else you can really do over there. But I had a tremendous influence and I really got a thirst for entrepreneurship. And so Then I went to get my MBA and I did, I did the first search fund, which was a bottleless water cooler company, which was the first experience in investing.

So let's just stop there before you go on search fund. I haven't heard that. I've heard of SPACs acquisition companies, but I have not heard of search funds. Tell us a little bit about that.

So it's, it's like that only it's on a smaller scale. So you raise some capital from traditionally high net worth individuals, small private equity, middle market private equity funds, traditional investors, and you raise a small amount of operating capital to basically be able to pay yourself and to search for a business. And then when you find the business, everyone who invested in your search fund has the right to invest in the business, but not the obligation that you find.

Okay.

So it is like a SPAC, but it's like a SPAC on a much smaller scale with a much more intimate group of people.

Okay. Got it. So you did your, how did you learn about search funds?

Just through business school. So bus— they, they originated out of, out of Harvard Business School and Stanford. And so when I was up there, I, I was attending a class and somebody who had one of the first kind of one of the pioneers of search funds was an attendee of the class. We actually were doing a case on him. And at the end, I remember talking to him and I said, does this really happen? Do people give you money without any experience running a business? And he said, yeah, absolutely. It's an actual asset class that happens. And so I learned more about it. I talked to a bunch of people that did it, met a bunch of investors who invest regularly in it and got really excited about the opportunity.

So when, when a search fund is created, so you get, you bring in these investors, accredited investors of all different kinds, and then how do they get their, how do they get their money out?

So they invest and then so they have the ownership of the business. So they invest, think about it like in the operating fund. So say just for rough historical or just rough illustrative numbers, say you raise $500,000 of operating capital. So 10 investors probably $50,000 each.

Okay.

So then you pay yourself a salary for 2 years, you pay all the expenses to travel, look for a business, then you find a business, say for $10 million.

Okay.

Each one of those investors, if you have 10 investors, have the right to invest $10 million. And then Someday you sell that hopefully for some multiple of that $10 million.

Got it.

So that's when you return the capital to investors. And that's where as a searcher you earn into some of the value created.

So rather than a VC model where you've got a portfolio of investments, a single company investment, you, and you're very picky about the company you decide that you're going to invest in.

Yep. 100%. Because you actually, you move to wherever the company, post-COVID, it's changed a little bit. People are doing it remote. I think it's harder to do, but typically the traditional model is you'll relocate. And thankfully for me, it was Southern California, which wasn't, they weren't pulling my arm to move to a place that wasn't pretty nice and fantastic. But, but usually you have to be pretty excited about the company because it's the next 5 years of your life and you're not doing other investments. You're not doing other things. You are full-time focused and running the company that you buy.

So I, is it, is a search fund just created by one person like you, you create the search fund and then you're the guy that's gonna be running the business once you acquire it?

Correct.

Yeah.

It's either one or sometimes you'll do it in partners. So I did it with an old friend and a partner, but typically it's just one single entity. Intended to buy one business.

And, okay. I got it. And then you, and your goal is to find yourself a job as a CEO.

Yeah. The part of it and create value for, create value for investors, of course. Right? But, but it was like, coming out of the Afghanistan experience, we had so much fun being so intimately involved in, in the operations of, of what was at that time a big pro— we're the biggest private company in Afghanistan, and I had way too much responsibility for a 25-year-old because I was so far removed. I was negotiating. I won't say this, change orders that may, maybe shouldn't have been negotiated. But it was a really fantastic experience. And I really, from that, I realized I wanted to do something entrepreneurial. I liked the building, I liked the operational type things. And I, I wouldn't say people who are idea folks, who are startup type folks, that's a very different skillset, I think. And, and, and a very different challenge. What I really enjoyed was taking a business, building processes, scaling, thinking about how to build team, all those things to be able to go, to be able to take that experience I had in Afghanistan, which was a much bigger project and much bigger company into a smaller business. Search Funds was a great opportunity to do that.

And so let's see, you said you got started with the company in 2015? Yep.

2015 we acquired.

So it's been almost 9 years, almost 10 years.

Yep.

How, how's the company done?

It's doing great. So we've gone to 2 recapitalizations. We sold the business for the first time in 2019. To a software growth equity firm out of New York called Level Equity. And then we sold, we recapitalized, a partial recapitalization in 2022 with Aquiline Capital Partners, which is a software growth equity firm also out of New York. And we've grown, we bought the business, we had 25 employees, today we're roughly 340 employees.

Wow.

Yeah, we've scaled quite a bit now.

Wow.

And it sounds like there's a lot more opportunity for growth.

Yep. Yep. The industry is still very much in both those trends. You talk about consolidation and shift to a cloud solution. Both those are very early innings and we think we're pretty well positioned with having the product that, that, that benefits from both.

Is there much competition out there for the kind of solutions you provide?

There is some, there's definitely a lot more competition in the smaller end of the market. So a lot of the mom and pop, kind of what we call single shingle dental. And so in California you see them, they're in every mall, strip mall. It seems like there's a dental office out there. You can't, can't throw a stone without hitting one. There's less competition in the multi-site DSO space. It's just harder to break into. The product has to be much richer and deeper functionality and So we, there's some competition in that space, not as much as you probably would anticipate right now. But we, there's also, this is mission critical to these groups. It takes a long time to build the credibility to have a software platform and to be a good partner to these groups that it's hard to break into, which I think is why there hasn't been as much competition.

That's both, that's both an opportunity and a little bit of a threat.

Yep.

Opportunity is if you can have the patience to build the trust, then you get a, and deliver, you have a loyal client. And as the client grows, you grow.

Yeah. And it all, but it also does make it challenging to grow because the difficulty of switching software, as you can imagine, because it is mission critical and it's complex. Yeah. Yeah. So our customers are great. Like, we've had customers since 2005, since the company was founded that have been with us. And most of our customers are, are very happy. But it, the most difficult part of what we do, and we always work to get better, is making it easier to switch to our software, which I'd say we've entirely cracked that nut. We've worked hard on getting better at it, but it's still tough.

Yeah. So I'm curious about what it is that's unique about you that you bring to the table that's made all this work.

I think it's, it's interesting. I, I was meeting this morning with a searcher, uh, as well, and we were talking about what makes a successful searcher versus not. And I think there's, there's a, there's an element to when you buy a business that you know nothing about. And in most cases, you spend maybe 60 days diligencing it. You talk to some customers, you maybe pull some things off the internet related to industry, but you really know nothing about the business relative to the people at the business. And I think what makes, what makes successful operators or searchers is the recognition and humility that you know nothing and the respect you have for the people who have taken a business, in our case, from $0 to X million of dollars in the period of time. That's a very difficult thing to do to get product market fit, get the first customer to say yes, And so I think if you can bring obviously your capabilities, process, like analytical mind, all things that I think are necessary in order to scale and grow a business, but where people fail the most, and I think where you have to be successful is you have to come in with the humility to recognize that you don't know everything, that the people who built the business and founded the business had tremendous success in doing that. And so listening, as we'll talk, I'm sure about, is a key part of that to be able to show that humility and also to, to learn because I think there's so many things you have to learn. And if you try to change things too quickly or make assumptions, or you can end up really just disrupting the apple cart a little bit in ways that aren't effective.

I suspect that you learned a lot of that in Afghanistan.

I couldn't listen as well because I didn't speak the language. No, I'm just kidding. But you had to, you definitely had to be humble in a place like that where you're coming from, from a totally different culture and you're, and you're just trying to understand necessarily like what, what makes people tick and what motivates them and how they view the effort you're trying to do. And, and interestingly, I'll tell, if I have a moment, I'll tell a funny story about that in terms of perspective and humility. When we were there, we were building for the Afghan National Army these big latrines. So basically they were making bathrooms and showers for Afghan National Army. And we bought these enormous water heaters, industrial-sized water heaters, and they kept burning out.. And so we'd have these meetings with the US Army Corps of Engineers every Wednesday, I think it was. And 3 Wednesdays in a row, we'd have a different water heater burn out. And we were trying to figure out why. And at one point, the captain, I think, of the Army was in charge of the whole base, comes in and it's like, my Marines need hot showers. These things you guys are providing, these really crappy hot water heaters. And I said, let's go take a look at the latrine. Let's go figure out what's going on. Let's just walk over. So we walk over and we realize that that the Afghan soldiers had converted all the water heaters into rice cookers and were cooking rice. And so it was our idea of what the money we spent and the investment we made on what we thought the Afghan Army wanted, which was hot showers like everyone asked, because it's cold in Kabul. But they really didn't care about that. They really just wanted to cook rice. And so it was a little, it was a little sheepish day for that Army captain when he saw that. But it was a great learning experience too, to understand that the humility of approaching a situation with the fact that maybe you don't have all the answers. Maybe there's a, a little curiosity and that you need to employ in order to get there.

Let's pivot to listening. This podcast is called Listening with Leaders because as a person, a former trial lawyer turned peacemaker, I, I think listening is the foundational skill of life. And I'm always interested in listening to people like you who have an interesting and broad experience base. About, about how you learned how to listen, because we're not taught how to listen. Whereas children were ordered to listen in school, we're ordered to listen, we're told to listen, right? It's a command, but no one ever teaches us how to do it. And so it's something, unless you meet somebody like me where there are very specific listening skills that you can learn, you just kind of figure it out. And I'm curious about how you figured it out because you obviously did.

I think it's, I think the benefit of either one or two ways, either, either having role models that you see that listen. So my, my, my mother was one of those people who, when my friends used to come over, would ask them a bunch of questions before it was taboo to talk politics, but would sit down with them and in the living room and would just ask them what they thought without providing any kind of, uh, opinion or wanting to lead to a conclusion. Or wanting to reaffirm necessarily what she thought, because she certainly had opinions. And I think witnessing that throughout my youth, and as we got into later life, and particularly today when nobody does things like that, my friends all remind me when we talk about her, we always remember how unique that was and how much they enjoyed it and how valued they felt from the fact that somebody was asking really what they thought in a genuine kind of curious way that wasn't just superficial in a conversational way. And so Seeing that take place and seeing the, the effect that that had on the relationships that she had and the love that she had amongst my friends in the community, like that was massively impactful in terms of who I was. And we're always shaped by our parents. We're shaped nature, nurture, right? And part of that probably might be nature cuz I'm my mother's son. But I think a lot of it, the experience that I saw her to be able to do that and then taking that forward and going through different situations in life and all different types of things from relationships to work things, it's like as you understand and seek to understand always, which requires you to listen first. It's like you can't necessarily— and today we always want to bring forth our opinions, and I think we just want, yeah, we want an affirmation of our belief systems, which I think is something that happens consistently now. Uh, I think if you come in with the idea that you don't know everything, so there's a humility aspect, and you have curiosity that others might Uh, I think it, if you believe both those things, you can't help but listen.

Yep. Uh, you just said something that I wanna highlight because it's a critical issue, and that is that people want to have, they, people have a deep need to be validated. That is the essence of human relationships. We can talk a lot about love, but at the bottom, everyone wants to be heard. They want to feel like they've been heard. And I have worked as a mediator in some really difficult conflicts. And as soon as I could get people to a point where they felt they were heard, they calmed down and the problem solved itself. So I learned a phrase I use, I call it listening other people into existence. And when you can listen other people into existence, they feel heard, they feel validated. And if you're a leader, you become a leader that everyone wants to follow. Because they feel good because they know you get them because you hear them. I think that's the key to all of this. I think listening from the speaker's frame of reference and making sure the speaker feels—

my experience, pretty spot on and spot on. I think not only from, I think the probably more complex and emotional situations where that's super critical in a mediation, even when it comes to ideas, when you buy a business in a search fund model, most of the time you're buying the business because the company hasn't been able to achieve the growth that ultimately are, it has potential to do. And so in a lot of situations, there's not, there's not the execution that has to take place, but that doesn't mean that people at the company don't have great ideas. And it doesn't mean that validating those ideas and coming in and saying, what would you do in this situation? How would you solve this problem? Like that, that not only surfaces great ideas that you certainly don't understand because you're new to the business, it also builds trust and the validation you say, not only on the emotional side, but also on the, hey, this person is invested in me and they want the business to succeed and I feel heard and, and I feel involved.

And that's all emotional. It's all emotional connection. Yeah. And when people feel heard, especially by a leader, they're gonna, there's, to your point, there's gonna be instant trust and loyalty and connection built, which allows for collaboration and teamwork to grow and for people to feel safe and produce. And that's exactly what happens. Not many leaders get that. It's pretty cool to hear you talking about that because a lot, a lot of people give it lip service, but they really don't understand the power of all of this. The interesting thing that I do, that I teach people, is I teach people how to listen to emotions rather than to words. Because you can be in any— I'm sure, think about the last meeting you were in where there was a little bit of upset or disagreement or a little anger or a little Edginess. Until you deal with that emotion, whatever those emotions are, nothing productive is going to happen in the meeting. So what I teach leaders to do is listen for those emotions, reflect the emotions to the, to whoever's got them, and wait until everything settles down. The whole thing will take about 3 minutes. Once they settle down, now you can start getting productive. But if you ignore it or try to put it down or stop the emotions your people are going to be shut down for the whole meeting and nothing's going to happen.

Yeah.

How are— what are some of the techniques you use to acknowledge that and to diffuse that in situations?

Really simple. 3, 3 tech— 3, 3 steps. Ignore their words. Read their emotions, which our brains can do automatically. That takes a little bit of practice, but most people can learn it very quickly. Read their emotions and then reflect back their emotions. With a you statement. So I would say, supposing we're in a meeting and you're upset, I said, hey Eric, man, you're a little pissed off. You feel disrespected, you don't feel heard, and you feel unappreciated and unsupported. And you're a little anxious and concerned about that because you think it's important that your ideas be heard out there and they're not. And actually it's making you a little sad because you don't feel connected and part of the team, and that's what you're really looking for. And if you think about it, it's pretty annoying and makes you a little angry. Yeah. And you can see you're not angry at all, but did you—

I feel diffused right now.

I wasn't— and there's some really powerful neuroscience about why this works the way that it does, but it works on every single human brain. And even if you're not upset, just like right now, you can feel it land and feel, wow, I feel a lot calmer.

Yeah, I do.

Yeah.

It's amazing, isn't it? And then people will What will happen is that person in that meeting will say, thank you. That's exactly right.

I said, okay, cool.

What do we need to do to solve the problem? To your, your point, we go back right to what you do, which is ask that open-ended question and engage them in a, whatever's appropriate, dialogue, negotiation, problem solving, whatever it takes. But don't do any of that stuff until you've got 'em emotionally deescalated first. They feel validated.

Yeah, no, that I, I can, I think that's great. I, I will absolutely use that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wrote a book on this. You can go out and get my book, De-Escalate: How to Calm an Angry Person in 90 Seconds or Less on Amazon. Talk on the book, the book describes how to do it. And of course I coach and teach people how to do this stuff too. That's cool. I'm, this is great. You're doing some really cool stuff and I love your attitude. You go out, you find people that trust you to raise the money. To pay you to go find a company, negotiate a deal, come in, work with the previous, the founder owner for a year and a half or so. Now you take over, step in, all the lessons you've learned about humility, not being aware of what you don't know, having some skill sets that maybe the team doesn't have that can be utilized to scale the business and listening to people and getting them coherent as a team. To a vision that you have of what's possible. And you go from 25 employees to 350 employees in 9 years. Yep. Pretty cool. Yep. Good job. You gotta be proud of yourself. And you get to live in New— are you living in Newport Beach or Irvine or—

yeah, yeah, Costa Mesa. Not, not bad.

Living the life down in Orange County. Pretty nice, pretty nice area down there.

Not a tough place to live for sure.

Not a tough place to live, although I couldn't handle the traffic. That's why I moved up here.

Yeah.

How far from Yosemite are you?

I'm about an hour from the South Gate.

Oh, okay.

So I'm, we've triangulated from Yosemite, which is a little bit to the north, and then King Canyon Sequoia, which is a little bit to the east. I'm in the triangle part at the apex of the triangle. So Yosemite this way and the other two other national parks are that way.

So are you in the Sierras?

Just in the Sierra foothills.

Okay, nice.

I'm pretty low. I'm below the, I'm below the, I'm below the snow and above the fog for the most part. Northeast Fresno County. And, but I can be skiing in an hour.

Oh, nice.

It's pretty.

Mammoth is the closest ski resort?

No, Mammoth is on the other side of the mountains. You can't get there from here. Mammoth is only 50 miles away.

Yeah. That's what I say. It's close.

But you can't get there. I gotta drive all the way down to Bakersfield and come all the way back up.

Ah, yeah.

So there's no pass. Tioga, but it's closed in the winter. But beautiful drive in the summer, especially if you're going to June Lake.

It's pretty cool. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. June, June's beautiful.

Anyways, one more question. I'll, I'll let you go, Eric. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know unless you revealed it to us?

Oof. One thing about myself that I'd never know, I would say probably is, it is that I don't, I think there's a, everybody suffers, I think, from a bit of an imposter complex. And maybe this is one way to answer the question. Maybe not exactly answer the question, but I think it's, I think as you go through these situations, I think this is part of being a leader probably is to try to mute this a little bit, but you're constantly questioning whether or not you're the right person to be able to do these things. And so, Like, I think I've developed a sense of just general confidence and maybe competence that reflects that. But I think it's, it is hard to see. And I think I, the leaders do a good job of, again, not probably putting this forward as much, but there's always a notion of, and as you go from 25 employees to 350 employees, and I always say this to our investors, like every day I'm the CEO of the biggest company I've ever run and tomorrow I'll be the CEO of the biggest company I've ever run. And it is not having all the answers and not necessarily always feeling as, as confident about maybe, you as it maybe seems. So I, I think that's probably one thing that I had this conversation just the other day with somebody about this actually, where I think everybody who goes through a situation in a search fund like this suffers this as the business scales and you see the success of the business and you self-reflect on who you are. And I think it's like everybody, everybody probably deals with that a little bit. It's, and then you go to, you realize you go to one of these trade shows and people want to meet with you and, but you look at yourself as the same dude who wears the same sweatshirt and clothes that has done this all the time and you, you forget that maybe at some point you are somebody in an industry that's been doing it for 9 years that now is a CEO of a company that most people know. Those things I think probably I don't show as much.

And I'll share with you, first of all, that will go away as you get older. I think I overcame that, that feeling of what the heck am I doing here? I don't belong here. When I was actually the board of directors of our local public television station, and I was leading with our CEO the digital transformation back in the '90s. And I learned a really important lesson, and that is that leaders don't do, they be. And I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to have the expertise. I didn't have to have, know how to raise the money. I didn't have to know all the engineering stuff and all the equipment that had to be purchased and installed and everything. I didn't have to know any of that stuff. All I had to do was be me and hold up space for everybody to do their thing.

Wow.

And once I had that realization, all of that, yeah, went away on all my leadership stuff. And I had that insight, and then I just started watching, and I just said, they're not expecting me to do anything other than just be me, and that's all I have to do is just show up. And provide advice and my wisdom and provide a little direction when it's needed and help the CEO problem solve. But other than that, I didn't have to, there wasn't much, there wasn't much to it. And that's when finally I got rid of that feeling of self-doubt. Yeah. So just don't do, be and see how that works for you.

That is a great piece of advice as well. I am gonna keep, I'm gonna pick up your book. I was, we just, I had a meeting yesterday that I was thinking about how I would've handled the situation differently. And I don't think I handled it super poorly because we didn't, I don't think it was dismissive of the conflict, acknowledged the conflict, but I certainly didn't defuse it the way that I felt defused, even though we didn't have conflict that you handled it. I think that's great.

It's a skill set that will transform your life. Anyways, I really appreciate your time today. And Eric, it's been great talking to you. And maybe next time I'm down in Southern California, we can get together. If you come up here, you go to the national parks, we've got a cottage on the property. You bring your family up and hang out.

That'd be great. Yeah, yeah, I like that very much.

All right, take care.

Thanks, Doug.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougno— D-O-U-G-N-O-L-L.

Ll.com/podcast.

If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.