235 - Empowering First Responders: The Role of Technology in Modern Policing with Mark43's Matt Polega

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Matt Polega, you are the founder and president of a company called Mark43, which can be found at mark43.com. Welcome to Listening with Leaders.

Thank you for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Absolutely.

Let's start.

First of all, in visiting your website, Mark43 is— looks like a one-stop shop for law enforcement agencies to get all of their data, a lot of their data managed in an accessible place. Would that be a fair statement?

That is a fair statement. I think we think about police officers and we think about public safety officials at large. They've come up in the last many decades with their utility belts and the tools that are all very kind of analog, but today technology is a huge part of what they do to get leverage out of their jobs. So, uh, yeah, we build a whole technological platform around them to make sure that they're spending time in the community doing the job that they signed up for. Absolutely.

So tell us a little bit about your backstory.

Yeah, absolutely. I am very proud to be from the western suburbs of Chicago, Illinois. I love Chicago and I will say as many great things about it to anybody that is willing to listen. But yeah, long story short, went to college, played some sports in college. I was on the track and field team at Harvard and—

I won't hold that against you. I went to Dartmouth.

You know what? All my friends make fun of me because I did not get into Dartmouth and they will never let me forget it. So that's that, I will do my best to let it go. Yeah, from kid from the western suburbs, went to Harvard, was on the track team, threw a heavy ball on a metal chain, which is the hammer for 4 years, which was a wonderful experience. Studied engineering. So always knew that I wanted to, I was always into building stuff as much as I was into taking them apart, VCRs and whatever old junk was laying around my parents' house that I could unscrew and dig into. And before I knew it, as part of our junior and senior year curriculum at the, at Harvard with the engineering group, we had to work with a customer and that was the class. It wasn't about building bridges. It wasn't about digging into electronics and stuff like that. So that's ultimately where we got into this world of Mark 43. But since then it's been a wonderful journey and an exciting thing to be a part of.

How long has Mark 43 been around?

We incorporated in the summer of 2012. So I guess we're just under 12 years in being in the business. Yeah, about 12 years.

How did you get the idea of building a platform, database platform for law enforcement?

So it's a great question. Like I said, in our junior year, most of our classes were, let's figure out how beams bend, or let's think about bridges or electronic, the kind of like classical stuff that you think of in engineering. But I give Harvard a lot of credit. They had said, you know what, as an engineer, we really want to make you this T-shaped engineer. We want to give you depth. In engineering, but breadth across these other disciplines and allow you to be able to flex when you're in the field actually serving people. And one of the things that you're going to have to do is deal with or support a client or customer someday. So the class that you guys are going to be in, it was called Engineering Sciences 96, nothing to do with all the technical stuff in engineering. It's all about dealing with what's it like to work with a client. And there were 3 sections. And I had mentioned that I was on the track team and just by total luck and good fortune, 2 of the sections, one was dealing with the, like, university, like, food services systems. The other one was dealing with the libraries. There was a third section, and that was the only one that I was able to make with my practice schedule, which was working with the Massachusetts State Police. They were rolling out this new policing model, and our, yeah, and our job was to figure out whether this policing model was effective or not effective. Landed in that class by total happenstance, and that's ultimately where we got into this. Ran in, we're trying for the first month to figure out this new policing model being rolled out by Massachusetts State Police in Western Massachusetts. Was it effective? Was it not effective? And we said, holy schnikes, the software that these police officers are using, this isn't what I see on NCIS or CSI or like these cool shows, right? Like we were, oh my gosh, Hollywood has lied to us once again. So our professor was great and he said, you guys go run off in your own direction and try to build these troopers something that can help them out somehow, some way. So that's how we got bitten by the bug of technology and public safety technology way back then. And it's certainly been a journey since.

Yeah. Tell us just very briefly, what are some of the services that Mark 43 offers to law enforcement? Sure.

So I would say there's really 3 big buckets that we group a lot of our offerings into. And like so many other companies, we have mobile components and mobile applications and some other things that you can throw on top, which certainly help, help users in the field. But the 3 big things that we build are computer-aided dispatch, records management, and analytics. So if anybody's ever called 911, the dispatcher will pick up and say, what's your emergency? What's your location? And you'll say, there's been a car accident on Lakeshore Drive, or my cat is stuck up in a tree, right? And they'll say, okay, let us know where you are. And you say, I'm at the corner of 14th and 1st. And they'll say, we need to get a unit that has a trauma kit or speaks Spanish or whatever. Basically, based on the situation, we need to get that. We need to get a fire truck that has this kind of ladder or this kind of carries this much water or all these different things to the scene of that emergency. They use a computer program. And if you ever have seen like inside a dispatch center on some of these dispatch TV shows, there's 4 monitors that a dispatcher will be sitting in front of, and one will have a map and one will have a list of all the units. And they're basically using that. It's like a real-time video game almost. It's like seeing the entire jurisdiction and saying, I know where all 1,000 of my units are at any given time. And I'm going to go call unit 1,001 and say, hey, you need to go respond to the cat that's stuck up in the tree or to the homicide or to the fight at that bar or whatever. So that's called computer-aided dispatch. And that basically manages the fleet for a police department or a fire department or EMTs across the jurisdiction. The second thing is that when a police officer or a first responder responds to the scene of an emergency, they typically have to write a report. This is like an, if you think about it, everybody uses the iceberg analogy to probably to some sort of like cliché effect, but I'm going to use it again. A police officer's job is very much like an iceberg in nature. You see them in the field and they're talking to people and maybe they're fighting some crime and they're arresting a bad guy. That's like how they're like portrayed to us. The rest of the iceberg that's underwater, it's like administrivia. It is writing reports. It is documenting all of this stuff. A lot of it is like driving back and forth from where they're in the field, like back to HQ so they can use a computer. It's just, there's all this other stuff that isn't what you would canonically think about a police officer being out in the field. Anyhow, we make TurboTax for those police reports. So instead of having to drive back to the HQ to go sit in the report writing room and write stuff down, to to just, and to take a long time to write these reports. And they're the bane of these police officers' existence. We make a platform that makes it really easy, really fast, just to write a simple report. And then the last thing you can imagine that over these two applications, you've collected like a ton of data. Where's the crime happening? Where should we be investigating? All this kind of stuff, the police departments or fire departments or just these groups of first responders will use those command staff specifically will use those to understand all of that information and say, maybe this is how I want to deploy my resources. Maybe this is someplace that needs more support. Maybe this place is particularly prone to this kind of particular emergency in a given season or something like that. And we just want to be ready and prepared on behalf of those community members. So computer-aided dispatch, records management, analytics, getting to the scene of the incident, writing a report about it, and then making sense about what happened at the end of the day.

All right. I take it the agencies can either get the whole package or they can break the package up depending upon what their particular needs and budget are?

Some agencies say we just need a records management system. Some agencies say we just need dispatch and some agencies say we want the full monty.

Oh, that sounds pretty cool.

Thank you.

So what gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work?

We got into this business and we didn't really have— everybody says, is your dad a police officer? Is your mom a firefighter? Like, where, you know, what parts of your family were like in this industry? And my mom was a, I guess she was a, she was a grade school principal, especially like during the COVID years. So she was a first responder, kind of a different sort. And my dad is an attorney. But no real law enforcement or first responders in the family. And then we got exposed to this field, particularly through that class back in college, but then also just year after year of working with our customers and really trying to be present with them. I have come to develop such an appreciation for what it takes to be a first responder. Going back to my analogy of the whole iceberg thing, you think like being a police officer is on the field and all the like John Wayne stuff, like arresting the bad guys, being the cowboy. And it's really not. And you have to not only deal with coping with, you, you may be exposed to innumerable tragedies in a day, or we talk about all the secondary trauma that first responders are exposed to when they have to go deal with a victim over and over that has grievous injuries, just terrible, brutal stuff. Or like any other job, sometimes a job can be boring. Like it's not the Hollywood, like movie stuff.

Right.

Sometimes it can be boring. And just to be able to have the emotional range and capacity to be able to handle that day in and day out. And do it for 5, 10, 30 years is an unbelievable thing. And I think I will be the first one to put my hand up and talk about how much I respect the industry and respect the people in it. It's unbelievable. It's just the thing that gets me up in the morning is being able to work with the people that truly are willing to deal with a day that is completely unpredictable and put their lives on the line. And it's fun too. I think we are fortunate to have a mission. There's a bunch of companies with really wonderful missions in the world to know that you could potentially get an ambulance to the scene of a car accident 10 seconds faster. And that could, that could be like the difference between getting a tourniquet on somebody and not. It really is motivating and it gives us a real sense of gravity for what we're trying to support. It's a good place to be and never thought I'd be in it, but it's a wonderful place to be.

Yeah. So what is it, do you think, that are the unique skills that you have that you bring to the table that's made Mark 43 successful?

That's a good question. I feel like I, I don't know, maybe, maybe a skill is for 12 years being convinced that I always have more to learn and there's way more people around me that know what is going on. And there's sometimes where I feel like I don't really have an expertise and that's not supposed to sound humdrum and too near and sad or whatever. I've certainly grown up alongside Mark43, but I think to be an entrepreneur, to be somebody that starts a business, especially in an industry that's as complicated and like esoteric as like public safety. And if you want to get humbled. Go sell to government. That is absolutely what I would say. And I think for me, it would be, I am definitely content accepting that I don't know a lot of stuff. And that may either mean that there's somebody probably better situated to solve that particular problem. How can we go bring them in, get them excited about the company and get them to join forces with us? Or can you set up the company culturally where they can develop its, its own competency to address that particular thing? And I think in all of this stuff too, and I always talk to the team about this, You're going to be dealing with tension and conflict and hard things every single day. And again, by no means trying to pat myself on the back, but I think one of the things that I really try to imbue in the team and try to set an example for is it's okay to lean into conflict. You don't have to be a jerk. You don't have to be mean and be hurtful and spiteful to people. But if there's, if you're feeling some tension, if you're feeling some rub, that typically means that situation is like worth like running towards. Nobody ever needs to like sleep on a problem for 3 days to think more. Like you have, you typically have enough information, hit it, move on, and it's okay. And I think dealing with that tension, leaning into conflict is, again, it's taken me a million years to learn it. And I still feel like I have a long way to go, but I think it's something that hopefully I've developed a little bit of a skill around and it's something that we continue to champion at Mark43.

Yeah, I have 2 reflections. One is what you bring to the table is humility.

Thanks.

Which is really powerful.

Appreciate that.

And the con— leaning into conflict is really interesting. It turns out that I teach people how to de-escalate conflict quickly.

You're trying to de-escalate the stuff that I'm trying to create.

I'm trying to help people create peace. I'm— I help.

Yeah, exactly.

So as they walk into a domestic violence situation and give them the skills to calm people down.

Absolutely.

Without having to arrest anybody, get Unless they're violent, of course, but get people calm down, stop the arguments, do a little problem solving and move on. Those guys, the men and women out there that are doing that work are first line mediators.

Unbelievable.

That's what they do all day long. But unfortunately, they are not always given the skills needed to do that work. Yeah. Your point, working within your organization, that conflict is inevitable and actually conflict is good.

It is.

How we respond to conflict is what makes it not so good or positive.

Absolutely.

Sounds to me like you figured out ways to lean into conflict in a way that makes it a constructive, positive process, not a destructive process, which it can be for so many people if they don't have the skill sets.

It's a muscle. I really believe that. And I, it's a muscle in that you can only do so much of it a day. Like I can't have, and again, conflict for, for everybody that's listening, it is not knockdown, drag-out fights where you are debating theological and ideological principles of a product that you're like building or something like that. It can be as simple as I gotta make a decision and I don't have all the information. And I would bet 99 times out of 100 for the really great leaders that are out there, they're gonna say, I would prefer that you make the decision quickly. I will support you in it being incorrect, but you're probably a sharp person that we have put in this position to make decisions when you don't have all, all the data. So it can be as simple as that. It can be harder where there's two co-founders that have grown up together and have wildly different opinions on something, but there's plenty of ways and there's plenty of frameworks to talk through those things and make sure that everybody involved is stronger for it at the end. And because the opposite of this is the conflict and the avoidance festers and then you, it's there. We just prefer not to address it.

And then it gets worse. Resentment builds.

It gets worse. Resentment builds. And then for the company, it's, I think an organization is something that you have to, you have to manage and you have to water and you have to cultivate or whatever. And if there's some insidious virus within it, sometimes it gets past the point of no return and then you have to do something drastic to deal with this thing that—

Unfortunately, that's when I get called in.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Dealing with it quickly. Bad news doesn't age well. Hit it head on. It's okay. You should build a support network around you to cope with it. And if there's— gosh, if there's one lesson that I could share with anybody that is out there, if I were doing this all over again, it would be hitting these things head on and knowing that it's okay.

And what makes it easier is learning the kind of skills that I teach. I teach people how to listen each other into existence because I've found in my career as a mediator and peacemaker that 99% of all conflict arises from people not feeling heard.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember seeing a, I'm not going to remember it perfectly, but the kind of like a triangle of origins of conflict. And maybe you've seen this in, you know, some of your stuff. It's, you know, very rarely is it because there's just a wild, like ideological difference between the two people. Most people, they like actually agree. Right. But it's either communication style or it's assumptions or it's, you know, preconceived beliefs and stuff like that. If you're able to, that's, you get that stuff on the table. And then again, 99 times out of 100, you're like, This was not that bad. This is, I'm happy that we aired this out.

That people talk about political polarization. Actually, I, I teach people how to have a calm conversation with the politically polarized. And when you, when you learn how to ask 4 questions in an appropriate way and listen and not try to evangelize, you find out that you've got more in common with a person you thought was politically polarized than you have that are different.

Absolutely.

And that's the secret is learning how to listen. The other thing you said was really interesting to me. I teach a, a course, a graduate course at Pepperdine University in California called Decision Making Under Stress and Uncertainty.

Yeah.

How do you go about— how do you make decisions when you're under a time crunch, when the stakes are really high, when you have limited information and, and you can't afford to be wrong? How do you— what's the process you utilize? And so I teach my graduate students all of that. And then looking at what are all the things that get in the way, of making that decision. And I teach people you can never control the outcome. You can never control the outcome of a decision. All you can control is the decision-making process itself.

Yeah.

If you have a good decision-making process, even under uncertainty and stress, you're more likely to get a good outcome than not.

Absolutely. So I would go towards the first thing for me that comes to mind is a couple words that you mentioned there where you're like, you can't afford to be wrong. For me, I would be, if I were talking to some member of my team or in thinking about things that I've observed at Mark43, just in our 12-year history, not being able to afford to be wrong, like that belief or that dead fast conception that has probably led to most of the worst decisions at Mark 43 or like strategic mistakes. And I'll explain what I mean. I think as if I'm sitting here saying I can't afford to be wrong, my first instinct is that I do not— the best way I can afford to not be wrong is to just not make the decision. If I don't make the decision, then therefore like I can't actually be wrong and I could like maybe stave this off for a long time and I can maybe talk my way around it, right?

Exactly.

Maybe.

Big maybe, capital M maybe.

Right.

But probably not. A week later, a month later, it could be 3 years later, but almost always that lack of decision will have, again, I go back to festering in the background and all of a sudden it's gonna be, then it's gonna be certainly something irreversible and you're gonna have to make a harder decision later. So I think the first thing that I think about is what happens when you're under a time crunch and you don't have all the data. And I would say instead, like I would, to my team members, I would say, and the stakes are high. Right? There you go. When that's the situation, the first thing for me is that I try to delegate it. Honestly, I, again, I think that there are more people around me that, you know, we're fortunate at Mark43 with a team of 250 people that there's typically somebody that has a pretty expert opinion on something or that hopefully they've seen it and they've done it before. I would try to, I would try to delegate that and say, give me your best guess. You're well suited to handle this. If I rewound to the first year and a half of Mark 43, where we were like 9 people for a really long time. And no offense to the other co-founders, the early engineers or anybody like we didn't, we did not have a lot of experience around the table. That was a situation where it's, I can't delegate it. I have so little information. I'm trying to get this first customer live. And it's the hardest thing that I have ever imagined ever. And by the way, I'm sleeping on an air mattress in a foreign city while I do it. And I hate this. This is crazy. At that point, I think for me it just comes down to like communication. And that doesn't sound like, it doesn't sound like, it sounds trite, but in those situations, when I think back to launching our first customer, which was the Washington DC Metropolitan Police Department, we talked and we talked and we asked why, and we asked why are we doing this? What's the right thing? What's the right thing? What's the right thing? We still held ourselves to a standard, like we got to get something out the door. But at the end of the day, you could have any team doing anything. And really all that matters is that they're communicating and that they're aligned. And I would say that's the strength that we probably leaned on in the earlier— hyper-communicative. And, and, and again, there's lots of different tactics to make sure you do that. But yeah, when we had so little experience around us, it was just a bunch of smart people agreeing and aligning and then hitting it hard.

And, and what I teach my graduate students is last question you ask in your decision-making process is what if I'm wrong? Yep. And then plan for that.

Yep.

And that way you're never faced with the fatal error because you plan for it.

Yeah, I think there's a, one of my, one of my college roommates is coincidentally, if you're familiar with Stripe, the payments company, it was my freshman year roommate, John Collison. And they put out a bunch of wonderful content just about company building and organizational culture and all that kind of stuff. And I was reading one of their blog posts and would love to take credit, but I have to give them credit. On the highly reversible decisions, make them quickly on the more, or on the, yeah, on the highly reversible ones, on the more irreversible decisions, take a little bit more time and be a little bit more thoughtful. And as soon as you appreciate that the wrong decision here is actually not going to be the end of the world, that's right. You're so free and you're just able to keep moving forward. And that's the most important thing.

Yeah. The key is not to get paralyzed by fear.

Oh no, absolutely. But to do that, I go back to the point about delegation. I also believe everybody's got an internal tank of how many decisions they can make per day. And everybody knows the feeling that 5 PM at the end of the week, you're just waiting for that. And you're like, oh my gosh, that is just, I need to recharge. Right. So I, maybe this is, you know, how I would turn it. I tell my team members all the time. I'm like, you should be pushing stuff down until it bounces back up.

I agree.

You should be like overloading the lower ranks, but you should really, every decision that you probably can make, but could give to somebody else, you push it down because I need you freed up to operate strategically while the tactical team members are able to execute and take that off your plate. And they will tell you if they have too much going on or if they can't make the decision, but push away as much as you can.

That's right. And not only push the decision-making authority down, but give them— well, pushing the task down, but giving them the authority to make the decision and Giving them permission to make mistakes.

Yes. The, the giving them the space to be wrong. I think, and I'll continue using obviously the only example I have, Mark43 as my example. I think we, it's, it's probably something a lot of companies experience when they're getting started right out the gate, but in, in the early days of Mark43, the founders were the, we were like the cleanup hitters. We weren't engineers specifically. We weren't salespeople specifically. We weren't. Product managers specifically. We were just these 3 guys trying to get this company off the ground. And I think earlier on, it would have been a better lesson for us to say not everything has to run up through us because even as we started bringing on more senior people, I think there was still a little bit of a feeling at the company that you still have to run things like to the top. And I think for us, it's been a real journey and I think something healthy to say it's okay to be wrong. You gotta be, you gotta be mature. You gotta give space people the space to be wrong and let them know it's okay. One time is them making a decision. Two times is something to talk about. Three times is a pattern. Like you, you don't want to let it run wild. But it's really been a great thing in the last couple of years to really recommit to saying, we're going to push this down, give you guys the authority, do not feel the pressure to run this all the way up the chain because otherwise that's just another form of paralysis that'll get the company.

Exactly. And I think that's a problem that a lot of people have, especially if they're entrepreneurs with startups, is they tend to micromanage. In the beginning, they had to do everything.

That's exactly right.

As they bring people in, letting go of stuff is difficult.

Absolutely.

Because it's your baby, right?

My senior director of marketing, she always references a wonderful article. It's a first-round article. It's called, I don't know the exact title, but it's basically the concept is like giving away your Legos. If you want to build more, you want to build more, all this kind of stuff, you got to be able to give away your Legos. And it really is a lesson that's like worth internalizing. And it's a shift. It's a hard thing to learn. So necessary at the same time.

And that's the other thing is learning that at that as a leader, you're not a producer, you're a leader.

I know. Yeah.

And that's very—

I paused. I, you said that and I paused a little bit. I'm like, nope, he's totally right. I just had a bad instinct. Like you're to— you're like 100% right. You're absolutely right.

And that's another skill that's really hard for leaders to pick up. They think they've gotta be a producer because everywhere in their previous lives, they've been measured by what they produce. Starting in kindergarten, I produce academic product and I get graded for it. That's a product. And I get graded for it.

Yep.

All the way through. And then I start out in the real world and I'm a producer, I'm producing stuff.

But when Andrew Grove from Intel, his, his book, Output Management, he's got a great line in there. He is like, when you realize that when you go from individual contributor to when you're individual contributor, you're managed on what you put out, right? When you go to manager, when you become a boss, you're measured on the output of your team. Nobody looks at you like Matt wrote a really good blog post. No, the team put together that like the team put together a great marketing strategy, you know, that I think that is such a monumental shift for people, but important.

And it's a skill set that a lot of people don't understand. Now it's no longer how do I produce a marketing report? It's how do I get my team to produce a marketing report that's going to be useful?

Yep. Yep. Absolutely. 100%.

That's a very different skill set.

Total shift. Total mindset shift.

Cool.

Where do you see Mark43 in the next 10 years?

That's a, it's a great question. I probably would've been able to answer it a lot more confidently 5 or 8 years ago when we just knew even, but I feel like knowing more now, it is almost even harder to predict like where we're gonna be. I think in the early years of Mark43, we were always like, where are we gonna be in 1 month, 6 months, 12 months? What's it, what's the company gonna look like? And all you learn is that it's so unpredictable. I think back then we were planning 1 month out, maybe 2 months out. We've gotten more breathing room now, more predictability. We're able to plan 6 months out, a year out, which is definitely better. I, so it's, it's really hard to say where I would love to be. Obviously we have this wonderful core of first responders that we support and that's like an extremely meaningful, you know, opportunity that, that we care about day in and day out. I think there are concentric rings in government that feel the same pains. The missions are different, but I do think that both state and local, tribal and, you know, federal, all levels of government are going through the same transition that like finance, banking, and honestly, like the medical industry have gone through in the last 10, 20, 30 years. And that's not just like a shift to the cloud, but it's instead of technology being an impediment, it's something that can hopefully accelerate your, the delivery of whatever service you're providing to whether it's your patients, to your clients, or in this situation with governments or your citizens in your community. So They're, we, we would love to just keep expanding the concentric rings of, are we supporting prosecutors? Are we attorneys at large? Are we supporting 311? I think there's so much more. And despite having 12 years into this, I think we're still very much at the early innings of the journey.

Very cool. One more question and I'll let you, Matt, what's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

People always say that I look a lot taller when I'm not on screen and I'm, so I'm like 6'5", probably 235 pounds. I'm a larger guy.

Wow.

But I also love cycling. Last year I upgraded my bike. There was one of three of them in the country when I was looking because the size frame that I need is so big. Trek and Specialized are really willing to invest in. So I love cycling. It's an amazing pastime. And despite having been a big meathead thrower back in college, I can't believe I found a more aerobic passion, but it's a, it's a wonderful thing. So good. Went from throwing a hammer, which was a metal ball on a wire, to riding a bike and All been fun in between.

Good for you. Thank you so much for your time today. This has been a really amazing conversation.

I really appreciate it. Great questions and can't, can't wait to keep the conversation going and talk more whenever, but it's been, it's been great. And it's, it's always fun to reflect on the journey. There's lots of lessons that we've learned and still a long way to go.

You're welcome.

All right. Thank you very much.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.