236 - The Art of Listening: How Emotional Validation Can Revolutionize Your Leadership Style with Arvo Tech's Terracina Maxwell

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Teresina Maxwell, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the president and co-founder of a company called Arvo, A-R-V-O. I wonder where that— we'll find out where that came from. ArvoTech.com. And you're based in Columbus, Ohio. Welcome to the show.

Thanks. Glad to be here. Glad to be talking with you.

So yeah, your backstory is interesting. Like, you— like, uh, we have a shared experience. We both went to law school. You never practiced. I was a civil trial lawyer for 22 years before I finally saw the light, got out. Tell us a little bit about your backstory. Sure. And how you got into the tax credit business.

Yeah, absolutely. So I, like you mentioned, went to law school. My undergrad is in accounting. So when I graduated from law school, I actually was recruited by EY, one of the Big Four, to come in and work on basically tax consulting side. And so at that point, loved the team with whom I worked, just really learned a lot about the tax credit business, but also learned it's really kind of fun to take basically bags of money to companies and say, hey, you qualify for these tax credits. Do you want this money or not? You know, and so that was fun. I actually worked there for about 10 years. But part of the piece that got me to where I am today is that when we would do these, you know, it's EY. I sit in Columbus, Ohio. So there are a lot of restaurants, fast food restaurant chains here. There's a lot of clothing, you know, retail here in Columbus. It just— taking tax credits to large organizations that want a certain number that is big. Is fun, but I realized that a lot of small businesses, my dad's an entrepreneur, and so a lot of small businesses that also would qualify for these tax credits didn't have that same opportunity, that in EY, they were just, I mean, they're just way too small for EY. But so, when I left, my co-founder Brent Johnson, who has a background actually at Deloitte, but just really is good at getting businesses off the ground. Part of what we're, we're trying to do, part of what we're doing is taking those tax credits to small businesses and giving them the same opportunities that larger organizations have. So that's a little bit of how I got, you know, from law school to where I am today. Like you mentioned, I never practiced, but I've always enjoyed, you know, what I do.

So you've been in business, what, for 10 years now? Arvo's been in business around—

yeah, Arvo's been in business 10 years. That's right.

And how big is your organization?

Um, well, we have, we have 50 employees, and then we just acquired at the end of last year 2 small accounting firms, so that put us up around 65 or 70.

Wow.

Yep.

And you run the place?

I mean, yeah.

What is it that gets you up in the morning? You've been doing this for 10 years. After 5 or 6 years with a big accounting firm, what does it get you excited in the morning to get up and go to work?

I think keeping that small business owner top of mind, like, why are we doing what we're doing, right? We really, um, within the organization just have that idea of, um, just helping the small business owner. So that's, that's fun. I would also say I work with some fantastic people. And so we spend so many hours a day at work that if, if you don't like the people that you work with, it's just miserable. And so, of course, obviously, you know, running the business, I get to hire the people around me. They are in— there's no question they're smarter in their areas than I am, but I also just like them as people. So that makes a big difference. And we're solving problems together. So that's really fun.

Good for you. So I'm curious, what is it that you think you have that's unique about your life and your experience that you bring to the table that makes ARBO so successful and allows you to do all these good things that you do for the small businesses that you represent?

I think as From a uniqueness for Arvo, really is that drive for the small business owner. In order to really crack that nut of taking, you know, some of these opportunities to a smaller company and obviously have margins that make it work, you, you have to invest in technology and you have to invest in a platform with working with small businesses. Yeah, one of the things I've learned over and over, and I feel this myself, right? I'm a small business owner that you have a million things on your plate, and it is all, you know, the things you want to work on are those things that you're good at. You know, you started the, you know, the restaurant because you really enjoy, you know, cooking food, not because you wanted to think about tax credits or your finances. Like, you just, like, it's an area that is a painful area for people to think about. So if we can come alongside and create some something that actually helps give actionable items or just helps take away some of that pain. Because the other side of it is small business owners also, you know, me included, we go to sleep at night thinking, what did I miss out on? Or what am I forgetting? Or what am I not doing? So if we can at least take one of those areas, we're not gonna, you know, help people sleep well on all areas of their life. But if we can help in one of those areas, um, It's just rewarding. And so we build relationships with our customers and we, you know, really try to win their, win their work every day and have a good time doing it.

You know, it's such an interesting area that you're in. I think about tax accounting and we're talking about figuring out ways to pay less tax and also making sure that we're accounting for income and expenses. Properly to get an accurate tax return. But when you think about tax credits, it's the opposite. Instead of giving money to the government, you're taking it from the government. But I'm not, I'm not, well, I took some basic tax courses in law school, but I just enough to know that I'm dangerous. The tax credit regime, the regulatory regime seems very complex to me as a guy who's pretty smart.

Right. Right.

And I guess it just takes years, the years of experience to, to dive into it and work with it to understand the regulatory regime. So you understand what's available and how to get at it. Would that be a fair statement?

I think that's exactly right. And then how to simplify it. I think sometimes as attorneys and accountants, we like to keep stuff really, you know, almost convoluted because it shows, you know, you need us., right? Because we can figure this out. But can we do it in such a way that's simple so that it's not so, so that they, I mean, your finances should tell you something about your business, not just the amount in your bank account, you know, can you hire that person because you have money today when you don't know what your expenses are tomorrow, you know, like different things like that. And so that's just the, the whole element of it, you know, and if you hire this person, will I get a tax credit versus that person, you know, and so it's just all of those things around that really keeps us focused as a company is how do we simplify, how do we make things action-oriented, you know, in order for that small business owner to, to understand, this part of their business a bit better.

So, tax credits are designed to incentivize behavior for the most part. It's a, it's a, it's a political social incentivization through monetary incentives. What kinds of incentives is the government giving to get people, businesses to do stuff? Is it like Who you hire. I mean, we want to hire people who have got freckles and purple freckles.

Yeah. So it is very— you're exactly right. Incentives are put in place to try to change behavior, try to coax behavior. Our bedrock tax incentive that we built our company around was the Work Opportunity Tax Credit.. So if you do hire someone who's an ex-felon or a veteran or on food stamps or anything like that, you can get a tax credit for hiring those folks. So that's, that's one of the main employment tax credits that we have on our platform. Obviously, there are different ones. There's R&D tax credits that look, if you, you know, are investing in a new, you know, typically we only think certain types of businesses qualify for R&D tax credit. It's much more broad. If you're doing anything where you're testing a new idea or a new process, you might qualify. And so it's just a lot of different incentives like that, that, yeah, that are available for businesses that many of them don't know about.

And they probably come and go with each Congress, right?

It's true. Some are permanent, some are— it's kind of interesting because with the Work Opportunity Tax Credit, you have different You know, some like it because it helps small businesses. Some like it because it helps, you know, people who have a hard time getting a job get a job. But, you know, it just, hey, how do, how do we help both people get jobs and small business owners? So, yeah.

So you're, you've been leader of your company for, for over 10 years. Tell me about the importance of listening as a leader. That's what this podcast is all about, and that's what I'm interested in.

Yeah. Um, yeah, you know, I think for me there's, there's an element of listening, which is obviously with words, but also with, you know, facial expressions or anything like that. Like just being attuned to the people around you to say, all right, what is it that's, um, that's on somebody's mind. So we— it's interesting that you bring that up because we, within our organization, we've been here 10 years. For the most part, I think people like their jobs. And so we have a pretty good work environment. We've learned how to interact, how to speak up with our minds or with our thoughts to be able to hear different ideas. To be able to hear, um, different, um, yeah, like when things aren't going well, you know, and, and to be, to hear that from a perspective, okay, what needs changed or maybe what doesn't need changed. One of the area, you know, and I felt pretty comfortable with our business and then we did these two acquisitions and now all of a sudden I'm interacting with people who are part of our team who haven't been a part of our culture. For a long time. And so what I felt so confident in, I'm suddenly in this, um, position with, you know, it's, it's on, it's, it's quite frankly a little bit uncomfortable and it's a little bit humbling to be like, I just can't go in and assume I know how to best change or put these new processes in place.

As a result, I think I read that you guys just acquired another accounting firm.

Yeah, we acquired two accounting firms.

You've done the financial merger, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of culture.

Yeah.

A lot.

6 months in, 6 months in. And I'm like, oh, maybe this should have been one of the earlier things that I thought about rather than taking for granted, you know, oh, we just need to get processes and systems in sync, right? It's not that at all. And so it's been, you know, You ask about the importance of listening, um, you know, actually going and sitting and hearing just good, bad, and ugly, and to be able to hear it. Because I think about in a situation like this, the way I've been trying to think about it is we don't always like what we see in a mirror, but sometimes that person is telling us exactly what it what is. And so all of my assumptions of this is what it actually is and this is going great and all of this, you know, what my own perception of it, um, is challenged when I go to lunch with someone or go to coffee with someone and I'm like, tell me how it's been going and I want to hear it. And so, um, if I'm, if I'm not doing those things, and I think I started them late, too late. Um, but thankfully we're doing it. Um, so if, if I'm not doing those things, um, I just think it undermines a lot of that, um, just collective focus on what we're trying to accomplish. Because you can assume it's there and things might look good for a little while, but man, at some point stuff bubbles to the surface. And I'd rather hear it directly and, and help problem solve with rather than just hearing it late and then coming in with, oh, then here's the solution. If people can be a part of that discussion of change, the buy-in is going to be better.

Yeah, absolutely. It strikes me that when I teach leadership, one of the things that I teach a leader is one of the primary functions of leadership is to create safety.

OK.

Create emotional safety.

Yes.

To that exact point, that you need people to feel safe to bring problems to you. Yep, have issues that you can listen to and not be reactive and not try to immediately problem solve, but listen, listen, clarity, and listen other people into existence. And then start figuring out, okay, what, what do we need to do to fix this? Or what do we need to do to prevent this? Or what do we need to do to make this better? Um, but it all comes down to creating that safety. And leader— that's why leadership empathy is so important. Is to be able to let people know that you are accessible and you are interested and you are not judgmental and critical and you're right, right present and you're here to help them so they can ultimately serve the clients.

And I think that's part, that's as I'm learning, that's the first part is creating. I like the way you said that, like that safe environment where you can speak up. And then there's the next part, which is, what do I do with that information? Do they feel heard in the moment, which is so, so important?

Critical.

But a month from now, did they see any impact that their talking had? Because— Yeah, go ahead.

If they don't, there's a reason for that. And it seems to me it's the leader's responsibility to go back, check in, and say, all right, we talked about this a month ago. You probably haven't seen any change yet. Here's what's going on. What do you think?

Yep. Yep. And it's, it's otherwise the listening. I mean, you get a short rope at first.

Yeah.

But you grow that trust. I mean, this is where the underlying trust is so important, right? Because even in going back, even, you know, to what you say, even if you go back and say, hey, I heard what you said, these changes are taking longer, but that, that open dialogue and communication really makes big difference.

So you call it a rope, I call it the trust bank account.

Oh yeah, that's great.

Deposit trust in the bank account. We can empty that bank account in an instant. It might take years to fill it up. And, but you gotta have, you gotta have that bank account filled to have people follow you. And that takes a lot of time and effort. And I, I, that's the primary role of leadership.

I think it's not, I wouldn't disagree with you. And I think sometimes it's the thing that I think about last. Like I said, you know, it was all processes and systems. Well, but it is so important. It is so important. It has to be a priority.

That's right. And here's the difference between leadership and, and everything else is that when we're producers— yeah, for example, when you were at EY, right? Producer, you know, you're working with clients, you're producing product for them, you're getting the tax credits, you're— and you're billing by the hour, by the project, or whatever it is, and you're a producer and you can measure your progress and get your self-worth off. This is what I've done for the— this is how many billions of dollars I've gotten for this client, right? You're a leader, you're not a producer. You can't be a producer. You are leading the producers. Your job is to make the team of producers function effectively, but you're not producing. And so there's very little against which you can measure your own self-worth because it's not like the old days when you were producing. And it takes a completely different mindset to be able to make that happen correctly.

You're right. It's nebulous. And that's why it feels like it's not as important.

That's right. Because, because there's not a, there's no measurable thing out there that can say, yeah, check off this box, check off this box. It's much more ambiguous.

Yep. And so important, right?

It's critical.

It's critical. If, if the work environment is not such that people enjoy working together and know where we're going and feel supported and heard and all of that, it'll be a disaster. They're gonna leave. Yeah.

They'll walk out and you, you're left with nothing.

Yeah.

And that's why, that's why leadership, especially in a service firm, is critical. And yet so little attention is paid to it.

Yep.

People come up even in the big accounting firm, big consulting consultancies, they come up as producers, then they become managers, directors, and eventually partners. And, but they've really never been trained in leadership. It's all about focused on where's the next buck coming from, right? Who's the next big, what's the next big project, next big client. And not a lot of attention is given to, all right, now I've got an army of people reporting to me.

Yep.

How do I, what do I do with them?

And it's a change from those, I mean, law school, it's a bell curve, right? So you're competitive. Absolutely. It's up or out. Right? You know, I used to have a partner for whom I worked with. Again, he was excellent, but he would sometimes like, all right, you know, so-and-so 1, Teresina 0. And I'm like, man, you cannot do that to me because what happens is I want to destroy everybody else.

Yeah.

You get too competitive. Because it pulls out that competitive environment. And then as a leader, that That just, that has to be kept in check. Who are we competing against and how do we invite, like, how do we not create an environment even if we're wired that way ourselves? But like, how do we put that to the side and say, look, we win together or we don't.

That's right. And when I go into organizations and especially organizations that have sales teams, I say, so how many of you do sales contests? They raise their hand. I say, great. How many salespeople do you have? Well, we got 50.

Great.

You have 1 winner and you're cultivating 49 losers.

Yeah.

What's that going to do to your organization?

Yeah.

Forget sales contests.

Yeah.

Same thing. Competition destroys cohesiveness.

Yeah. Yeah, it does. But you mentioned this earlier. It's when we're winning, it's good for our identity. But if we're taking our identity in that, we're taking it from the wrong place. Like, it just doesn't work.

Right. And it's the— and to your point, it's the leader's job to create a collaborative, yeah, space, not a competitive space.

Yeah.

And that takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of skill.

Yeah.

And that's not a skill that's taught. It's not taught in business school. It's— it happens to be stuff that I teach, but it's not— but it's not taught in business school. It's not— certainly not taught in law school. And it's But they are, they're actionable skills that leaders can learn that help them with this. Unfortunately, they're not— these skills are not thought about, so they're not valued. To your point, oh, I should have been thinking about this since the acquisition started, and here we are 6 months later, and, you know, it's not top of mind. And yet, as you recognize, it should be.

Yeah.

And so that makes— that's, that's why my job is so interesting, because I'm constantly talking to people, and they, after we talk, they, oh, you're right, this is crazy, how come I didn't think about this? And right, you know, marketing, marketing my kind of skills is, is, is interesting to say the least.

You get to see aha moments. Oh, so joy-giving.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, I mean, my work is so satisfying. I mean, when I can teach, like, my promise to my clients is you'll never have a fight or argument again in your life unless you want to. Okay, stop all fights and arguments forever in your life— business, professional, personal, doesn't matter. You'll be the leader that everyone wants to follow, right? Because you know how to listen, and that's a skill that very, very few people have.

Yeah, yeah, it's been helpful for me. We had, um, I was in an organization once where somebody came in and assumed they knew what I did and assumed they knew what changes. Everything in me, I don't like to tell you what time it is. Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I had to keep my own emotions in check when I was talking with them. But it, but it was a good experience for me. Because I haven't thought about that experience. And probably I don't know how long, right? Now that I'm sitting here, I'm like, man, I know what it felt like to be on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's assumptive, right? Part of listening is not assuming you know what that other person is thinking or why they're thinking it or how they got to those conclusions.

That's right.

It's realizing they had a different experience. They have different talents. They had a different day. What are they coming to the table thinking and how, you know, yeah. Yeah. Asking the questions to really—

I go deeper than that. What are they feeling?

Yeah.

What's their emotional experience right now? What, what has it been? What is it right now? It's their emotions that are driving their behaviors. It's emotions that are driving their decision-making.

Yeah.

It's emotions that are determining whether or not they're gonna be productive or nonproductive.

Right.

But let's focus on their emotional experience. Emotions are everything.

Yeah.

Nobody talks about it.

You're right. Um, I was thinking even about, um, There's been a situation just recently where someone's gotten upset and pretty upset, and I agree, though my hard thing is when somebody comes in emotional, I tend to all of a sudden see this situation as like almost like a, um, I get real fascinated, so I can almost depersonalize and become this like real like I'm going to get to the core of this. I'm so curious. If someone's emotionals are— emotions are that high, that means there is some seed underneath that is getting— and it's not the first or second or even the third thing that they talk about. It is something. And a lot of times it's insecurity, and it's, you know, whatever it is. Um, but, but my issue with that, as I've been given feedback, is when I get into that mode, which is really fascinating for me— I like that mode— but that impersonalization can almost come off cold instead of actually sitting with that person and emoting or allowing them to emote. And, you know, okay, that, you know, man, that, that sucks. I can see what, you know, however that empathy— validate.

I teach my students validate their emotional experience. It's through, it's known as affect labeling. You validate their emotions.

Yep.

Then when they, when they, you're going to get 4 unconscious relaxation responses.

Oh, okay.

Physiological. You can always see it. You watch for those 4 responses. Then you can move into problem solving and you, and that's the only time you can ask a question is in problem solving. So I teach people, do not ask, you start with a question. So tell me what's going on.

Yeah.

They start talking. Now I'm going to affect Lila. So I would do something like this. Let's suppose you came in and you were upset about something and I'm You know, so I said, so Teresina, man, you're really upset. You're frustrated. You're pissed off. You don't feel like anybody's listening to you. You feel completely ignored and not heard and unsupported and unappreciated. And you're a little worried and concerned. And you're kind of, kind of feeling a little guilty and embarrassed about all of this. And it's making you a little sad and distressed and unhappy. And at the bottom, you feel completely abandoned. And lonely and betrayed. And you— there are times when you feel completely worthless, and it's really upsetting to you.

That's really helpful because that's going to be my conversation tomorrow.

Yeah, you're not any of those things right now, Teresina, but I'm not— the 4 relaxation responses happen automatically. Yeah. And then I would say, so let's talk about Let's talk about how to fix this.

Yeah.

What do we need to do?

Yeah.

Now I can ask questions and start problem solving. But until I do that first little part, which took what, 45 seconds?

Yep.

Um, people are not ready to problem solve.

Yeah.

And what do we do instead? We tend to jump into early problem solving.

We do.

Because we're trying to soothe our own anxiety.

Right. Or we become defensive. And tell why their emotion is not valid. And they aren't seeing— if you just saw it the way that I see it, you would understand. And trust me, I'm your leader.

There you go. That's the problem-solving part. And we do it because we're trying to unconsciously soothe our own upset and anxiety and defensiveness at the expense of the person who's upset.

And what do they feel?

They feel emotionally invalidated. It just pisses them off even more, and the problem gets worse, not better.

Yep.

So what I teach is how to listen to these emotions, how to do exactly what I just did with you before you do anything else. And that allows you to have the difficult conversation.

Yep.

Without getting upset. It allows you to transform difficult conversations.

Yep.

And that's why, like I say, you never have a fight or argument again.

Can I, so can I ask a question?

Of course.

We're having a conversation.

I told you you'd have fun with this.

I, I, I definitely am. I, I enjoy thinking about this. Type of thing. Um, so it was interesting hearing you talk about this and explain, I guess, how much would you ask the individual, help me understand what you're thinking, and help them explain their deeper— like, you know, you said, you know, and at the core you're feeling maybe some shame or embarrassment because you don't even want to be there. Would you actually tell somebody that, or would you ask that question and just say You don't.

Do you feel mad?

Are you mad?

Yeah. Embarrassed? No, you never ask a question. You never ask people how they're feeling. And there are all kinds of scientific reasons why you don't do this.

Okay. That's a, this is a new thought for me.

So this is working with the, with our brains and the brains are hardwired to receive information in certain ways.

Yeah.

Yeah. And asking questions when somebody's upset requires their prefrontal cortex to be online and they're upset. So their prefrontal cortex is offline. They can't answer the question. All it does is make them upset. Yeah, but what we can do is once we're— once you're trained in this, you see emotions that the person is having that they don't even know they're experiencing, right? And I— when I affect label you, I did it in a very structured way. There's a— the emotional data is unstructured data, so most people can't access it. Well, I teach you how to structure your emotional data so you can access it immediately And just like a checklist, you just go down the checklist and you hit every single possible combination of emotions, and that automatically settles.

Right, right.

Just like you felt that. You saw, my God, I feel great.

Yeah, no, it's really interesting because I would have— that's not intuitive to me.

It is not. It's counterintuitive and counternormative.

Yep.

Goes against everything we think we know about listening and conversation.

It does.

Brains are hard. And, you know, I discovered this in 2005. I had an epiphany. And then in 2007, a brain scanning study came out of UCLA, Matthew Lieberman's lab, that showed what happens in the brain when you do this and why it works the way that it does, even though it completely flies in the face—

oh yeah—

of everything we think we know about listening. Yet it's the most powerful, transformative thing we can do with people.

So fascinating. Love this. So There you go. Thanks for that tidbit.

You're welcome.

Where—

so where do you go from here with your career and your life?

And yeah, um, it's a little bit of one day at a time right now. Um, no, I mean, I think, I think for me what we're talking about with this immediacy of, of the culture is really like— that's probably the piece weighing on my mind most. I have the product and engineering team, which are just fantastic coming up with, okay, how are we going to, you know, what are we creating from this and going from here? And the technical skills of the CPAs and accountants are great. But we actually don't grow unless I figure this piece out. So that is my immediate, here's where we go. After, after that gets solved, where do we go? Yeah. I mean, I think that we ultimately say, all right, we, we are right now testing some of these finance and accounting ideas on current client base. How do we take that to a broader base of people?

How do we scale?

Yeah, that's exactly. Then it's scale, right? It's, it's very different, but that's a scaling point.

And how do you scale in a way that allows you to keep serving small business.

Yep.

You scale by going to bigger businesses, which a lot of people do. Right. And the big consultancies, that's their model, right?

That's exactly right.

But to your point, there are many, many more small businesses that, that are out there. But how do you scale to be able to serve them and still be able to make a reasonable profit? And that, and to your point, I think automation is ultimately the, you have to have technology and artificial intelligence. It's all gonna allow for leveraging of time and resource. Predictions we haven't seen before.

To use people's highest good, right?

That's right.

To use our, what we're good at and the things that light us up. How do you figure that out? Let, let AI, let the technology do the things that are, you know, drudgery, right? There, there is a role for them. There's definitely a role, but man, that's not what lights us up. That's not what lights us up. Relating to people, figuring it out.

So, right, exactly.

Cool.

Well, one more question and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself, Teresina, that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Yeah, um, I actually have social anxiety and do not like going into any kind of crowds or talking with people. You're an introvert. Yeah, what's that?

You're an introvert.

Very, very much an introvert. People tend to not believe that. Um, but I, I had a grandpa who back in the 1920s and '30s was in the traveling circus. He was an acrobat and he used to tell us when we were young, you know, you never show the audience the pain. You just don't. And so I think that kind of got ingrained where it's like, man, you're present, you show up, you, you know, make sure that, you know, you're present. But man, if I don't get that, if I don't get that downtime, even going in, it's, it's really tough.

Well, I'm gonna give you some words of encouragement. First of all, I'm an introvert. I don't like being in crowds. Um, yeah. Introverts are people who get their energy from the inside and feel that people suck out their energy. Extroverts are people who like to get their energy from other people and pull it in.

Yeah. Okay. That's the definition.

And I have probably interviewed 230 leaders on this show over the last couple of years. Okay. 90% of them are introverts.

Makes me feel better.

7% of people in the world are all introverts.

Yeah.

Isn't that—

why did you make us go to social networking events then? It just doesn't make sense.

It's the extroverts that set that up, and then they're trying to bring the introverts in, right, for the, for the substance, because the introverts are the deep thinkers.

Maybe that's the way it is, but—

well, this has been a great conversation, Teresina. I really enjoyed our time together. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media, just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and Your likes and views go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more?

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