259 - Navigating the Evolving Landscape of Public Relations with Authenticity and Creativity with Crowe PR's Anna Crowe

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Anna Crowe, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder and president of the San Diego company— it's based in San Diego, but you're actually nationally based— called Crowe PR. You're a national public relations agency and welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Doug. Excited to be chatting with you today.

I know from reading your background that you have, you didn't start in PR. So why don't you give us a little bit about your back— you have a very unusual background for somebody who's into PR. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yes, I definitely did not start in PR, and if you told me back in 1999 that I would be running a PR firm out of California, I would have laughed. But here we are. I started in New York City. My career started there actually as an auditor for Deloitte. So I was a Big Five at the time, now Big Four. And I stayed in the financial realm for a few years. I became a senior financial analyst and then I went in-house and worked for a global cosmetics company. I was actually the world's largest at the time. And that is where I really fell in love with this concept of brands and creating something from nothing and then leveraging financials behind the scenes and creativity and all these things to really propel a brand forward. So that's when I pursued my MBA in international marketing, changed paths, ended up working in Los Angeles, uh, for a major, um, record label, and then eventually settled in California, San Diego, and founded Crow PR about Almost 10 years ago.

Wow.

Your journey sounds a lot like mine. I was a trial lawyer for 22 years, went back to school mid-career, got my master's in peacemaking and conflict studies, left the practice of law, and became a peacemaker.

Wow. I love that. You can always recreate, right? You can always shift gears. That's exactly right.

And it's pretty cool that you came out of finance and then, and got into the creative side of life, which is really cool.

So, yes, it's, it's nice to use those two sides of the two parts of the brain. Absolutely.

So Tell us a little bit about Crowe PR, the kind of clientele you handle and your scope.

So yes, I've had it for a little under 10 years. And as you mentioned, we are a national PR firm. We really call ourselves an integrated PR firm because what we do is we raise brand awareness, manage reputation, and then credibility for different brands through this integrated approach, whether it's getting earned media relations, thought leadership, where we profile the C-suite and key opinion leaders of companies. Position them as experts. And then we also support brands with influencer marketing, social media creation, and other things. And we do focus on 3 distinct business areas. One is our healthcare technology practice, which is medical device brands, genomics brands, and other healthcare-focused organizations. We also have a CPG arm, which is consumer packaged goods. And that is a really wide range. It's wine and spirits to apparel and consumer technology. And then we also have a hospitality division, which is travel-based. So usually hotels and destinations.

That sounds like you got it all.

It's fun. Keeps, keeps things really dynamic.

You got booze and hotels and, and then when you get, get the hangover, you go to the medical people, right?

That's it. Usually start the morning thinking about the medical companies. By around lunchtime, we think about opening hotels and then by evening there's some whiskey and beer involved. So it's fun.

There you go. You've been doing this for a long time and you've been in business for a long time. What is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work?

Oh, it's such a big question. I always felt like I had this gift of boundless energy and it's really easy for me to recharge in the night. So when I wake up, I'm just excited for life, for ideas, for creating. I love creating things, whether it's my hands or my mind, working with teams and collaborating and creating things together with a team. So what wakes me up is usually just wake up naturally and ideas start popping into my head. And I think about the excitement of the day and what lies ahead because I work in so many distinct areas, not just in the company, but also outside the business. I'm involved in a lot of things. There's really never the same day. And so I just get excited and look forward to the opportunities that day could bring and the challenges that I could potentially solve.

You get any beach time in San Diego?

Any beach time? Yes, actually this morning I did a sunrise hike with one of the entrepreneurs groups I'm a part of. That was a beautiful thing to do before 9 AM.

Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, I got up at sunrise, walked around. I've got 10 acres in the central Sierra Nevada, so I got waking up early.

Oh, that's a lot of acres. Yeah.

Watch the sun.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. The sun come up. So that's great. So you've put together, you've assembled this massive team of people when you got, and PR is a very fluid, dynamic, creative kind of business with, and you've got the business side and then you got the creative side. And you're dealing with a lot of creatives. Tell us a little bit about your thinking about how you lead all of these people that for the most part are pretty independent thinkers and not always going, they're not always going right down the middle of the meadow, right?

Yeah, that, that's what makes it interesting, right? So I think that as humans, right, we all are individual and individuals and we have our own superpowers. And so I really have embraced this concept of authenticity for the last few years. And it's really about honoring and understanding your own superpowers and bringing them to the surface so that we can collaboratively get things done and thrive as a team. And so for us, it's about, yes, creating, you know, standards for our brand, which is what, for instance, like making sure we are continuously delivering exceptional service and results and really rallying around our values. So when we are, when I started the company, one of the first things I did was establish our core values as an organization. Now, at the time I established 8 because I was like, we're this and we're this and we're gonna be this. Over time we scaled back to 4 and those are the 4 core values. And then making decisions to around those values. So whom we hire, who we bring on to the organizations, we need to make sure their core values fit employees-wise. Same thing for our clients. We've had to fire clients in the past that didn't really fit our core values because it would impact our culture in a negative way. And I find when we are all aligned with, on values, it really doesn't take that much effort to ignite and get people performing at their highest level. It does need some inspiration. It does need, we do need to make sure that we are continuously recognizing the great work of our team. And it also takes those authentic conversations of course correcting when we're not doing something in the best possible way. And I try to lead that by example. You know, I always ask for feedback. Not everybody wants to give me feedback because I am the CEO of the company, but that is important to say, hey, What, what, what am I missing? What are my blind spots? Tell me what they are. And creating that culture of trust so that we can all be able to grow from that place.

Speaking of superpowers, what's your superpower? What makes you— what's the unique thing about you that you bring to the business that makes it successful?

I think I'm really comfortable with being authentic and standing for my beliefs and not worrying too much about whether it's doing the right— whether I'm going to make a mistake or not. I have a pretty good way of looking at failure. I think that's a superpower, right? And that goes back to the authenticity that failure is a growth opportunity. And even if I have a crappy day because I didn't do something the way I thought I would, I know I can go to bed, recharge my batteries, and have another chance, hopefully to do it differently the next day. So I think failure's a big part of our growth, and I'm not afraid of it. I embrace it. I don't love it all the time because obviously we wanna have success more than we have failure. But I'm not, I think it helps build resiliency when we are comfortable with that.

So how do you develop authenticity?

I was this morning, as I mentioned, I did a hike and the other part of the hike was a breathwork sound bath experience, which for those who don't do that, it may sound a little, but for those who do it, yeah, yeah, we understand the importance of it. And no judgment either way. Right. But what were you gonna say, Doug?

Sorry. I said I get it. Breathwork. You did breathwork and what else?

With the sound bath. So, you know, when they have the music.

My wife is a sound healer. I understand exactly.

There you go. So she's— get her on the line. She'll know what I'm talking about. And yeah. And as we were doing that, goes back to reminding me of connecting with yourself and really truly understanding yourself, the good, the opportunities and all the things. And I think that's how we can show up authentically, because the more we understand ourselves with the flaws and the superpowers, and the more comfortable and confident we become, the easier it is to be vulnerable with the rest of the world. And I think—

huh?

I said that was going to be my next question. Authenticity involves vulnerability, and vulnerability requires inner strength. Yeah, I think a lot of people especially in leadership, look at vulnerability as being some, a bad thing. The paradox of Tai Chi, I'm a Tai Chi practitioner and second degree black belt. And in Tai Chi, the paradox is this, the softer you are, the stronger you are. Vulnerable, the more powerful you are. Softening.

I love that.

Vulnerability to be powerful. And it turns out to be absolutely true. So tell me about vulnerability.

Yeah, it's similar to what you're saying, the softer you are. There's a concept of light touch leadership, right? Where a leader doesn't have to harp on you and do, you're doing this, you're doing this. It's creating that culture of trust and understanding and being able to inspire that change and being, having a lighter touch. So it's the same thing as you're talking about in Tai Chi, but that also goes back to vulnerability. I think it's important to build that confidence and find yourself in environments where you can trust and be trusted. I think it'll be— it's tough to be vulnerable in an environment that does not appreciate vulnerability because that is where you feel the stress and you eventually end up leaving, right? And eventually stop being vulnerable because you've had a bad experience. So I think it goes both ways. It's us being vulnerable and surrounding ourselves with people, whether it's professionally or personally, where we can be our true selves. We can create that trust. That gives us that opportunity to be vulnerable without the risk of being judged.

So a lot of thoughts are buzzing through my head right now. Have you heard of the Athena Project at Google by any chance?

Yes.

Psychological safety. So what you're describing is the core role of a leader in creating psychological safety on a team. Tell me how you go about doing— that's what you're describing. How do you go about doing it?

Exactly. And I think that goes back to authenticity, right? Doing what you say, saying what you do. Creating that consistency, not being Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. For those folks who don't know what I'm talking about, there's a great book on the topic where a person would turn themselves and be a really great person and then be more of a monster. And so being consistent, right? And if you're continuously also able to show your flaws as well as the good things, then people can understand where they stand with you. And that's what I think creates that culture. And also, it's not always just about positive reinforcement. It's also create an opportunity where you are inspiring people and reinforcing them, but also being able to share where there are opportunities for growth. So it's doing what you say, saying what you do, and keeping that, that culture and really making sure that there's a values alignment. I think it's very easy for employers to kick the can down the road if you have something that's not aligned, and really easy for employees to just stay in a job that doesn't align with them. And the sooner we can recognize that and get ourselves out of that situation, the easier it is to do what you're talking about.

So this show is called Listening with Leaders because I believe that true listening is the foundational skill of life, and most people don't know how to listen. I suspect that you're a pretty good listener. How did you develop that skill?

Sorry, what did you say? I completely missed that. I'm just kidding. Yes, I know. I listened. I heard you. Yes, I agree with you. I couldn't agree more. I think Active listening is a skill that we all must perfect. Perfect is a strong word. Must gain.

Let's say master.

Yes, there you go. And master. And because there's— people can listen and they can hear, but the message may not be resonating because there are other things happening in their mind, right? They're blocking out or they're selective hearing. Where you said 5 things, I just heard the one. Goodbye. There's so much around listening that I think we should be really conscious about. And there was a book I read, I think it was— I can't remember the name of it, I apologize— but there was a— basically the guy was saying that some of the best com— some of the best dinner parties they've had was when they got to talk and other people listened, because people do like to talk. But the idea is that you in the silence, in the listening, we are showing up in a lot more valuable ways. And it's hard for entrepreneurs, I think. It's hard for passionate, excited people. I had this challenge when I was younger. I have an idea, I have an idea, I have an idea. But we can't just do that all the time. So there's— I got a really great tip from Liz. I think it was her name was Liz Owens. She wrote that book Multipliers. Have you read that book yet? Okay, great book. I had my whole leadership team read it about 4 or 5, maybe 6 years ago now. And for people who like to talk a lot because they feel they have ideas, she has this analogy of having 3 poker chips. So you show up to a meeting, you have 3 poker chips, and every time you speak instead of listening, you give 1 poker chip away. And so you have to be really intentional about what you're saying and spending more time listening. And so in the past, when I first started my business and there was maybe 3 or 4 of us, We'd have a brainstorm and I'd come in with ideas because Ideation is one of my top 5 strengths according to StrengthFinders. So I'd already be walking into the meeting with ideas. But by not letting my team share their thoughts, by me not listening first, I was really not bringing my best leadership to the table. So I had to learn that and say, okay, let's listen first. And if it allows, even if I have to, maybe wouldn't even, that idea won't even make sense after I heard everyone else. So it's an important skill and it's important for us as leaders to always be mindful of it.

Yeah.

You're in a client-based business where listening to clients becomes a critical skill. I teach a skill that talking about, and I talk about listening others into existence. So it's a very different kind of listening. Instead of listening for information, I teach people how to listen to validate the speaker so the speaker feels heard and validated, which is a very different way of thinking about listening.

That's great. I love that.

And I'm in a client-based business too. And I find that when clients feel like they've been deeply heard, they're much more amenable to listening to what follows. Right?

Absolutely. And then that takes me to asking great questions.

Right.

Part of listening is coming up with great questions, not saying, okay, cool, check the box. I've heard you. You said it. Great. Hang on a second, did I hear this correctly? Or what's underneath that phrase? Because oftentimes with clients, they're just giving you what you ask them, but you have to dig a little deeper to really hear what the problem may be or what they're looking to accomplish.

Exactly. The framework I use is TED— tell me, explain to me, describe for me.

That's a great framework.

They're open-ended questions that allow— and then when I reflect and I am validating, I'm primarily validating their emotional experience, we create that safety that we've been talking about. They open up even more, and we get deeper and deeper and deeper. And when we're done, the client feels deeply heard, and we're able to solve problems much faster. So very cool.

That's very cool.

Yeah. So Where do you think Crowe PR is going on its journey? You've been at it for 10 years, still pretty new.

Mm-hmm.

What do you think?

Yes.

What's the plan?

Well, I think, huh?

What's the plan?

To the moon and back, maybe. I'm not sure. So I think we're in a really interesting space because marketing in general has been so dynamic with technology innovation, with the advent of the iPhone and social media and also just the world and news and fake news and all these things. There are so many things that are impacting us. What I love about our profession, it continues to evolve based on customer behavior, whether it's B2B businesses or B2C businesses. And so the way I see the business really continuing to form and grow is make— staying on top of, of that trend, of the trends, and making sure that we are continuously connecting our clients with their customers in the most impactful ways as they change. We may add one or two other service areas based on that because even 10 years ago when I started, earned media was really 95% of our business. Since then, it's become still a majority of our business, but I probably carve out 30 to 40% for influencer marketing and organic social media because that's reputation management and brand awareness in a different way that speaks to customers. Continuously evolving and growing the business. I think, um, I'm really proud of a lot of of the accolades that our team has brought to the— brought to our company. And I'm really proud of the talent that we have. So my goal is to ensure we're continuously being really selective about the clients and our team and what our endeavors are and really intentional about how we build the business over time.

How do you think AI is going to affect PR in the future?

Let's start already with, with content, right? I think that the upside of it is we can have information at our fingertips. Tips very quickly, very easily. It can help in creativity if you get stuck, right? So if I'm writing an article and I go, okay, what are the 5 things I should say? Let's just see what AI says. And maybe there's one like, oh, that's an interesting one. Let me write about that one. So there, it can be a, a great thought starter for ideas or campaigns. Obviously there are challenges with AI because of misinformation and other things. So it's very important for the human element to be a big part of the process. But I do think it create, it's with regards to content creation, it can be very valuable with those thought starters and even just some content starters. And as it evolves, I think it'll be really valuable in data analytics as well. How are we measuring success? How do we know that what we're doing is making an impact? So I, I'm excited about that. The key is, of course, to use it in the right way, to use the right technology and to make sure that the time investment in AI is proportional to what you're getting out of it.

Right. I get— I'm— maybe it's the lawyer in me that gets concerned about fake images, you know, fake content, fake stuff that gets amplified on social media and across the internet in ways that are going to be really detrimental to individuals, to organizations, society in general. And I'm not sure what this—

there is—

there are always going to be bad actors out there, and I'm not sure what— how that's going to be managed. But that is a deep concern I have, that it's I agree with you.

I agree. There are things even outside of AI that I don't love on social media, even though we do this part of the job. I'm not the number one fan of social media. There are a lot of things that are problematic, similar with AI. There's gonna, there are gonna be issues. And, and I think it's up to us to figure out how to use it in the right, most legitimate way. And then also how to watch out for those things.

Right.

And, and be smart, educate ourselves on it so that we know where it's coming. Even with the outside of our professions, just the robocalling and all these things. And there, there are a lot of nuances that we just have to be mindful of and know how to deal with them.

It'll be an interesting time over the next 20 to 30 years, won't it?

Yes. Yeah, I agree.

One more question. I'll let you go, Anna. What is one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Never know about ever. Let's think here.

What a professional, or whatever comes to mind. Something quirky, whatever is interesting and different that would give us into who you are.

Sure. So when I lived in New York and I worked in finance, I also as an entrepreneur had a lot of side hustles. So I'd find other ways to entertain myself creatively and make extra money because living in New York also was not very inexpensive, especially living downtown. So one of my side hustles during this big financial career that I had, I was an extra on different shows and movies. Really? And there are, yeah. And there is an episode of Law Order that I was in the background of along with a few other random movies. Usually it's like the back of my head or something. So there's not a lot of episodes where it's me actually having a Any lines, but that was fun. And the fun thing about those is they would always tape them at the most obscure times. So oftentimes I would finish my job around 7 PM because again, I'm working in Manhattan in the early 2000s and I would go home, shower, change, and then I'd go do a taping somewhere between 10 AM, 10 PM to 2 in the morning. And then I'd get back to bed for a little bit and then I'd go back to work. So it's not something I talk about a lot, but it is. It was a city and it is a city that never sleeps. So that's what I did.

Yeah, I was going to say you're burning the candle at both ends.

I was young, I could afford it.

Absolutely. This has really been a great conversation, Anna. Thank you so much for the time you've taken out to talk with me today.

Thank you, Doug. It was really a pleasure and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you offline. Absolutely.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much. Were listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that you think would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.