270 - From Burnout to Balance: The Role of Listening in Entrepreneurial Success with Visibility on Purpose's Bridget Sicsko and Lydia Bagarozza

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Bridget Sisko and Lydia Bagarossa, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You guys are the co-founders of a company called Visibility on Purpose, which teaches entrepreneurs and business Business Owners: How to Pitch to the Media. Sounds pretty interesting. Let's start with backstories. I know you guys have a lot of corporate experience before you got into what you're doing today. Bridget, let's start with you.

Oh, well, thank you for having us on the show. Yeah, the corporate experience. Lydia definitely has more than me. I actually only had a really a 9-month stint in corporate. After I graduated from college, I worked at Yelp in New York City. Cold calling phone sales job, which is really what it was. I was cold calling 100+ business owners a day, which was very, very challenging for someone who loves to meet people and get to know them and not be hung up on. But we always know that in any experience we learn a lot. So I learned a lot about sales. I learned a lot about building relationship, rapport, asking good questions. But that was my 9 months in, in corporate. And soon after that, I actually decided to travel Europe, become a yoga teacher, study Ayurveda, and go on my whole holistic healing journey, which has, you know, a before, a before also story when I was young dealing with health issues. But I thought that would be my thing. I was going to teach yoga, host workshops, help people, and I still do that today. I've been teaching yoga for the last 7 years. I actually teach at a nonprofit for veterans, and I work at an addiction recovery center. So I love those people. I will be with them, um, for many, many more years, but I've always had this business. Business Bridget came out and I decided to start a publishing company, um, 2019, 2020. And that is when Lydia and I met. We met in a Facebook group. We both went to Rutgers University here in New Jersey. So we had a lot of crossover in life and I saw what she was doing. She saw what I was doing, and I really wanted to help my clients get more exposure. I wanted to help them actually not just write their book and share their story, but also do bigger things in the world and get featured in the media. And that brings us, you know, a couple years in between, but that brings us to starting Visibility on Purpose together. And really our big mission was bring people together, teach them everything that we know, give them access to one of the most usually coveted inaccessible industries, which is the world of the media. And here we are today.

Excellent. Lydia, what about you?

Very different. It's so funny how Bridget and I met because like she mentioned, we both went to Rutgers. We have mutual friends. A lot of my friends did the same internship that she did in college. So it's just, it really, I think it was supposed, it was destiny for when we met. But, um, my background is a little bit different. So I started my PR career in the music industry. I was working at an agency that had clients that were Grammy Award-winning artists, big record labels under like Sony, um, under Warner Brothers. So I was, I was really in it and I thought that that's what I wanted to do. I have been music obsessed since I could remember. Um, and I got there and I burned myself out to the point where I was having nerve pain. I didn't realize that it was all related to anxiety. I thought I had carpal tunnel. Fun fact, I did not have carpal tunnel, but it was just really interesting. So I kind of sparked my healing journey, if you will. So both of us have a very similar story in that respect, where I was diving into the mind-body and trying to understand like why I was so stressed. Like I got to this career that I wanted my whole life and it wasn't something that satisfied me at all. So I shifted into beauty, fashion, and lifestyle and worked at a different agency. So that was really spearheading campaigns for products sold at major retailers like Target, Ulta, Sephora. And it was there where we had a lot of clients. I feel like this was at the forefront of like sustainability and kind of looking at what was really in our products. And I was just so amazed at the founders, like how they came up with the sustainable, you know, skincare and how they came up with this and why this was their story and, In, at the end of 2020, I decided to start my own agency and support brands that I love that are making a huge difference in the world. So I started my own PR agency and then Bridget and I kept crossing paths in, in a Facebook group and online in the online business world. And we ended up collaborating and starting Pitch Parties. So that's our flagship course. I won't go into that, but really what we wanted to do was We were noticing that there's a huge gap between business owners that are doing things, their business is working, but maybe they don't have a huge budget to hire me or other publicists or even bigger agencies to get into the media. So it was like this huge, like, gatekeeping of them not being able to build a brand that they want because there's just no entry to get there. They don't know the hows or whatever. So that's why we are doing what we do to really bridge that gap so that they can have the same access as the Elon Musks of the world and Coca-Cola.

Wow.

So maybe you can give us, give us your pitch. What is it? What is exactly that Visibility On Purpose does? Mm-hmm.

We always say that there are those business owners who would love to be in Forbes. They would love to be on TV. They would love to be well known for the work and the businesses that they spent years building, but they don't have the budget. They don't have a huge following and they have no idea how to do it. So we teach them how to get featured. We teach them who to contact, how to research, how to really position themselves as experts. And we are there right alongside them in our course Pitch Party. We have a community. We're all about just educating, teaching, and bringing these business owners together.

Wow. I know that I've spent way more money than I care to think about PR people and the promise. Frankly, I haven't had one person yet one agency deliver what they promised. And it's probably cost me $100,000 over the years. It's really sad.

It is really sad. And it kind of taints the industry. And to be honest, I actually hated PR when I was in it, um, in like more of a corporate setting. I just didn't understand why there was so much gatekeeping or there was like lying to clients or promising them, you know, the stars and not really taking the time to even get to know them. And it's funny when you were talking about before we got on today, you know, we were chit-chatting about, your background, uh, Doug Noll, and I, I saw a lot of overlap between like the emotional connection and listening and like why we're so good at what we do. What I've noticed with a lot of agencies is they don't take the time to really position the brand and understand like what these people are doing. And so in our work, we really like help them go through a positioning process of like, what makes you different? Like, why is this so— why are you so passionate about your brand? And let's put those emotional pieces into words. So when somebody receives a pitch and they read it, they're like really wowed. So it doesn't have to be this like massive brand. It's more just like really honing in on the story. So, um, yeah, we, we love doing what we're doing and really just creating more access and, and allowing this stuff to happen. Like our clients get these major features and some of them have worked with agencies or, you know, go out, go to an agency and say, oh yeah, we could promise you this, that, and this, but you have to spend, you know, $10,000 a month with us. And it's just silly at the end of the day.

Right, exactly. So you guys have been doing this for a while. What gets you both up in the morning, gets you excited and motivated to go to work?

That's a great question. I love working with Lydia, and I think it's really interesting being in partnership, you know, having like— we both own this company 50/50, and there are times when one of us thinks one thing and one of us thinks the other thing. So we've really gotten to, number one, know each other really well, build the trust, find out like why we're doing what we're doing in the first place. And bring fun back to everything that we're doing. But also, we've had to have challenging conversations where we might not both agree on something. But I honestly feel like our communication skills with each other have made it even better. So I love— we use Slack a lot. I love waking in the morning, waking up in the morning and saying, hey, like, did you see this? Did you see what's happening last night? Or, you know, what's hap— like, what's going on in your life? Because we both know each other, you know, personally. Like, what are you doing? Did you take your daily walk? Just, yeah, I love working with Lydia.

Aw, that's so sweet. I feel the same way. It's funny, we have really different work styles. Like sometimes I get a spurt of energy at night and I'll work until like 9:00 PM or 10:00 PM. Depends. Like I try to have boundaries, but sometimes I get excited and I'm just like, whatever. And Bridget will wake up at like 4 or 5 in the morning and she'll get excited and start typing things into our Slack channel. So first thing in the morning when I wake up, sometimes I'm like, ooh, what did Bridget say? Like in response to this or that. So it, it's funny cuz it's it's like what gets us up in the morning. I think, you know, we're really passionate about what we do, and that is something that helps us get up in the morning, like knowing that we're helping business owners really like build a brand and make their dreams come true. But also, at the end of the day, like, work is work. And so having, uh, somebody on our team, a partner to, to go through everything with me, I agree, it's, it's so fun.

So I take it you guys are all remote?

Yeah.

And we don't live in the same state. I actually live in New Jersey still, and Lydia lives in Florida.

Yeah. Wow. So you're 1,000 miles apart.

Yep.

Yep. Technology is our friend here.

See each other very often?

Very often. We all—

Yeah, we really try. Talk to each other.

Great. Do you have any other employees or just the two of you?

The two of us, we've had a lot of interns, um, college interns who have supported us. We've been able to teach them., you know, a lot of business organization, social media marketing, copywriting, a lot of those types of skills are things that we need help with. So we've been able to share that with, with them, but it is just the two of us currently.

Wow. Where do your clients come from?

Mostly social media, internet, um, referrals. If we are in person, we do love to do a lot of speaking events. I love to speak. Lydia is also a very good speaker. Uh, and so we tend to meet people that way and our clients come that way.

Wow. Hmm. So what is it that's unique about each of you that you bring to the table that makes the business successful?

So I actually was thinking about this when you, when you mentioned like what makes you successful at what you do. And I was like, what makes me successful? What have people told me? Something that I keep thinking about, I've been told that I'm very good at helping people position themselves. I'm very good at bringing more of that emotional aspect aspects, like I mentioned, into media pitches. And I was reflecting on it one day and I'm like, how can— why can I do this so well? I think that my music industry background actually really helped me where when you pitch a song, you have to like kind of extract the feeling of a song into a pitch to get them to go to the next step, which is listen to it and then want to cover it in Billboard or, you know, Nylon or whatever magazine I'm pitching. And I take that same principle and bring it into work with our clients. So we again take— spend a lot of time in the positioning and the foundations of the pitch. And then once you have your, your media pitch, we say like, you know, go do the research and, and reach out to the right people. But I really think about that as a big success point in, um, why I'm good at what I do, I would say.

What about you, Bridget?

I agree with what Lydia is saying about herself. She's told me she's been like, Bridget, how do you think that writing a pitch for a song— how do you talk about a song? How do you give emotion and feeling and understanding to a song? Like, how do you personify a song? And I just thought her being able to do that is incredible. And I, I think back to myself as a kid. My parents told me that I always asked questions. I wanted to know the— I wanted to talk to the adults, and I wanted to know what do they do for work? Why do they do it?

What are they like growing—

what do they like doing growing up? So I've always been that person who likes to go the the level deeper with someone. I struggle to talk about the weather because I want to know what drives you. I want to know what you're passionate about. I know what you want to know, what you're excited about. And I think that beautifully translates into the work that we do because we get to figure out, okay, what are those pieces that makes this brand come alive and that makes this founder stand out in a sea of other, you know, startup founders or health coaches or nutritionists? And we get to find and really kind of harness and identify whatever their genius is and then bring it to life and bring it to the world. So I think personality-wise, me just being who I am has allowed me to ask the right questions and then pull the right information out.

So Lydia, you're— what's unique about you is your ability to take something concrete and find the emotional drive behind it.

Yeah, I think so.

Formulate a pitch. And Bridget, what you're— I would say that what's unique about you is your intense curiosity about people in the world.

Spot on. You know us to a T. You got it, Doug.

Well, of course, it's what I do. So let's, let's talk a little bit about listening. This show is called Listening with Leaders. You know that as a lawyer turned peacemaker, I teach a very unique set of listening skills that changes the world when people learn these skills. How do you guys learn? I know you're good listeners. How do you become good listeners? How do you learn that? It's a skill that has to be learned and it's not taught, right? We don't learn how to listen from our parents. We don't learn how to listen in school. We're ordered to listen as children. We're ordered by our parents to listen. We're ordered in school to listen to our teachers and professors, but we're never taught how to listen. How do you guys develop these skills? Brigid?

I don't know if it's a book or a quote or a saying, but I remember reading this somewhere about the most interesting person in the room is usually the quietest and the one who asks the questions. And I feel like I picked up on that earlier on. I do like to talk. I'm very extroverted, but in some situations I will be more so of a fly on the wall and kind of under— of a group, an entity, a room to really understand what's going on. So I do like to sit back and observe. I would say that that's one of the things that has taught me about listening. I also think in working with special populations, you know, veterans, those in addiction, I used to work with those who had disabilities. I think there is this something that I developed to just be able to listen to someone when they tell me their story, when they tell me what they're experiencing. It's not about me to have any opinion. It's really just about me to give them space and to let them feel seen for whatever they're experiencing. So I think life, life situations have taught me a lot about that.

I think you've hit on something that, that a lot of people don't understand, and it's what I teach, and that is what I call listening other people into existence, where you listen to validate the speaker. You're not listening to gain information, you're not listening on your own agenda, you're listening, you're listening to be totally present with the speaker in that moment and make sure they feel validated and heard from their frame of reference. And that's the kind of listening that most people don't know how to do. But it sounds to me like, especially working with the special populations you mentioned, that learning how to do that was an important skill.

Yeah, necessary, needed.

Absolutely. Lydia, what about you?

You know, I think I can struggle with listening, to be completely transparent. So I feel like I've learned this skill over time and I have sat with this. I have sat with this and reflected on this, and I think at the end of the day, like, people just want to be heard. And so realizing that we're all kind of in the same boat of wanting to be heard, so giving them the same respect to listen. And I think a lot of people want to respond to others right away because they want to feel that connection and that relatability and have that connection, but sometimes the best thing we can do for connection What I've learned is just by listening and then responding from that. And I think actually my job has helped me a lot be a good listener. I can only be— write the best pitch if I'm able to listen to them and the words that they use. So interesting, like you can be a, a lawyer and you— there's another, there could be another lawyer in the room and the way that they talk about law or the way that they talk about how they make decisions or what they do. That even though there's a rule book for things, it's going to be very, very different the way that the language that they use. So understanding that everyone is so unique and different, and listening is the best, uh, I guess, justice we can, we can give to another person.

I'm really glad that you said that listening is a challenge for you because it is a challenge for almost everybody. And I'm curious, what, what is it about listening that is challenging for you?

My challenge personally would be that I love people so much that I want to be relatable and be like, oh, me too, or oh, oh, I— that's so funny, what you said reminded me of this story. And so I'll hear myself do it sometimes, and I'm like, all right, reel it in, Lydia, reel it in.

Yeah, it's interesting that people— so interesting. I, um, I, I work with a sales organization, and, um, I'm one of their coaches and trainers. And today, earlier this morning, I had a we were talking about rapport building, and I was having the students in the class do these two kinds of listing. One listing was that kind of relatability. So, oh, I'm a real— I'm talking to the guest and she says, I'm a real dog lover. Oh, I'm a real dog lover too, you know, like that. And then I have them watch a different way of being, which is, oh, I'm a real dog lover. Oh, you really love your dogs. Tell me what it feels like when you're seeing your dogs out there playing and they're full of joy and happy and they feel safe. Oh, it makes me feel so good. And I said, and it gives you a lot of joy and love? Yeah. And then I asked them which one landed better, and they said, well, obviously the second one. And what I teach people is keep I out of your conversations. If you want to listen, I has no place in your conversation. It's always you. And so, and that's a difficult one to— it's a skill that has to be learned. And so when we do that, that relatability thing that everybody does— oh yeah, me too— um, you think that you're relating to the other person, but really what you're doing is talking about yourself, and it doesn't resonate with the other person. So it's, it's really an interesting thing, and that's, it's a, that's a skill that takes a little practice to learn how to do it, and that's what I teach. Um, What's interesting to me is I think the challenge for many people in listening is they're not interested, they don't know what to listen for, and they don't know how to make another person feel heard. And so that leaves them with just the role models that they've seen— their parents and teachers and colleagues and bosses and people like that, most of all, or who are terrible listeners. And we end up with chaos. Um, what do you guys think?

You know, it's funny, as you were saying the second one, I was like, oh, Bridget does this really, really well.

Yeah, you're good.

Question, ask her.

Or, or what you do is validate and then ask a question. So I could say, so Bridget, you're really, you're really excited about this project and it's really getting you thrilled and it's really pumping you up. Tell me, how's it make you feel when you get on a project like this and you have success?

I'd probably say like, thank you so much for noticing that and acknowledging it. I don't know, I would probably acknowledge the, the comment first and then communicate back.

I could have a whole conversation with you like that, never talk about myself. In fact, one of the things that's so interesting is my wife and I are real masters at this, and she's She's somebody you guys need to meet. But we'll go to a party or go to a social function. We're not big social animals, but we live here in rural California, so you can imagine what that's like. And at the end, when we're going home, I say, how many people asked about you? Well, nobody. How about you? Oh, nobody asked me about me at all. All we did was listen, and people were so thrilled to be heard. That it never occurred to them to think about asking us about who we are and what we do.

It's interesting you say that. Yeah, I have a friend that's really good at listening, and sometimes I don't think she knows how to talk about herself in our friend group. And she'll sometimes she'll tell me like, you know, I feel like I wasn't able to share what I'm— what's going— what's happening to me in our friend group. And I know she's like this, so I'll always just ask her. I make a point to ask her lots of questions of how she's feeling or what's going on. But it's It's interesting to see different dynamics and they, they could be all amazing people, but they just don't have the skillset exactly what you were saying to be the listener on the other end and prompt questions. And so everybody feels heard and validated.

Right.

This is very interesting because I'm, I am reflecting on all of this and Doug, to your point, I'll notice if no one asks a question back, right? Because if I meet someone, I will, I'm happy to ask all the questions to get to know them, but I will understand if they, they, it's not reciprocated. And to Lydia's point, I do— and this happens with Lydia and I— Lydia's like, Bridget, you've done so all these incredible things, like, why don't you share about it more? I do notice I'm more comfortable in the one who listens and the one who questions because I want to get to know them. But then my challenge is usually on the other, on the other end, feeling like, oh, I don't need to share, like, it's fine, I'm good.

There's another aspect to this, and I'm interested in your reflection on this, especially as younger women, that When you are on the side of asking questions and moving the conversation, that provides you with a defense. It provides you with a shield, and it allows you to be in control. It's a feeling of control, right?

1000%. Absolutely.

It's like, I can guide the conversation, you know, and, and weave it in, and people can't penetrate my defenses, and I'm only gonna let myself open up to just a few very special people, and Everybody else, that's as far as you're getting. You're not getting past third fence.

This is fascinating.

I got machine guns up there. Right?

Fascinating. Yeah, absolutely. Spot on.

You know, before we got on, I was telling you a little bit of my journey, and I talked about my Tai Chi experience of soft to be strong, vulnerable to be powerful, and two paradoxes of Tai Chi.. And I learned that that completely transformed my life from being a hardcore trial lawyer, secondary black belt, to being a peacemaker and being authentic and vulnerable. And which is a really healthy, great place to be. And what happens is when you get to that space, you, you don't have— I don't ever feel the need to defend myself. I don't feel those barriers that I used to have, all the walls that I had up. I don't feel like I need them anymore. I can feel like I can walk into any situation, doesn't matter how intense it is, and be perfectly calm and comfortable and confident and compassionate and know exactly what to say and how to say it in the moment to bring peace to the room. And that's a really cool place to be. It's a really cool place to be, not having to worry about that, being defensive, like, I don't want you to see the real me. Yeah.

Bridget, was it you that sent me a video on tai chi. Somebody sent me tai chi recently. Was it you?

Possibly. I'm not sure. I have practiced it before, not to any expert status level at all, but I was at an ashram once and they had a morning tai chi class, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna try this. And I, I just loved using the breath and like some simple movement. It was very peaceful, honestly, but powerful in the same regard. Like, you, you felt your own strength, but not in way.

It's, it's an interesting practice with many, many layers to it. Most people practice it sort of as a contemplative practice like yoga. I studied it as a martial art and spiritual practice, and that led me into understanding ki or chi. I can blow business cards across the table with my energy. That's pretty wild to watch. And that led me into learning how to become a healer, energy healer. You'd never know that. But yeah, I'm a certified energy healer, pranic healer. And I mean, it's just amazing where life takes you, right?

It sounds to me like all of us have very— all of us have very businessy type of mindset, but then we all have a very spiritual side. I'm also super into that. I have my Reiki 1 certification. Bridget has been a yoga instructor for how many years now? You've done how many? I've done how many classes?

Thousands. My wife is an internationally known sound healer. Wow. Is really well known in that field, is in terms of sound healing and energy work. And so it's, it's pretty interesting. I think, I don't know, you guys sound like you might resonate with it, but if our work is not reflecting our spiritual path, then it has no meaning and it just becomes something, to your point, Lydia, burns you out. But if you, if you're, if you're, if you're practicing your, your beliefs by what you do every day, there's no burnout. You, it's a constant replenishment.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I think for a lot of people, they are, you know, get to a certain point in business where they think that they need this because it looks great or it's cool. I mean, even speaking for myself, I loved music, but also thought it would be so cool to work with musicians. And then I got there and I was like, this is, this is not right for me. And so I would never have guessed in a million years, uh, me and Bridget would have Visibility on Purpose if you asked me, you know, 5 years ago, and doing what we do. But it brings me such joy. It brings us such joy to be able to, to help people take what their passion is, whatever it is. Typically it has something to do with like a deep connection of spirituality. And, and this is what I find so cool, like it could be something so simple. It could be like, I don't know, a product, like a skincare product that seemingly doesn't look like it has a deep connection, but maybe underneath those layers they love sustainability and they put their, you know, they have an herbalism background and they put herbs in it, and it, and this product really represents something that gets them up to, to do their work every single day. So yeah, I, I'm so excited. I'm so happy that you shared your story with us too. I just feel like there's so much resonance in all of us and It's, it's so interesting to see what's behind the, the screen or the writer profile. I told you, I, I found you originally on Medium, so very cool.

Wow. Yeah. It's, we all lead really fascinating journeys. I've found that the, the real, my life didn't really start until I turned 50. Uh, and I left the practice a while. That was the smartest thing I ever did. Don't make nearly as much money, but, uh, I serve more people in a day than I served 22 years as a lawyer. And that's to me what makes life great, is serving others. And that's what you guys are doing. I mean, Bridget, you're out there doing yoga. You don't get paid for that. Probably it's all volunteer work and you're working with these populations that need the gift that you can give. Of them. And that's, that's really powerful.

And Doug, do you know your Human Design by any chance?

My human what?

Human Design. We're going to talk about it afterwards because—

all right, no, I, I don't, but we can talk about it later. Um, all right, one more question. I could talk for you guys forever, but I want to keep these— my audience has a short attention span and I want to respect. Um, Lydia, what's one thing about you that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Oh gosh, what is one thing?

Let's see.

I love being creative and I love doing crafts. So I love drawing, I love painting. I also play guitar, not very well, but I do. That's actually— you can see my paintings right here. I started working on one. Yeah, I have them behind me. But yeah, I love just being creative and I don't think a lot of people know that about me because I present myself as a very business-focused guy on the internet, right?

You would never know that I play jazz violin.

So cool.

How about you, Bridget?

Well, I feel like I got a— what's the— I don't know, I never know how to say like phrases, but now that I know the question, I got to think about it for a moment. So thank you guys. I would say I love doing home projects, and it's not something I talk about all the time, but these dresses behind me, they were actually salvaged just for free off the side of the road. And I love like refinishing things, painting things, changing the hardware. I love changing around my space, and I've always loved that since I was a kid. I used to redo my bedroom every single year, and it would drive my mom batty because she's like, Bridget, not the walls again!

You don't need a new comforter.

And I think, you know, understanding what it is, is I understand that when we shift our space, we shift our energy, and we, we create space for things in our life. So I think there's just still that part of me that to do these little projects because I know the shift it makes in me too. Absolutely.

So interesting you should say that. My wife has the same thing. And I say, and I tell her every time she gets into one of her moving modes, I say, thank God I'm not blind.

Oh, so funny.

I love that.

Ladies, it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Doug. This is amazing.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social social media, just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasENoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.