273 - Understanding Consumer Behavior: The Emotional Triggers Behind Decision-Making in Marketing with Mindy Weinstein

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Mandy Weisinger, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder and CEO of a company called Market Mindshift, which can be found at marketmindshift.com, and you come from the Phoenix area. Thank you.

Thank you Thank you so much for having me. And yes, I am in the Phoenix area.

So let's get a little bit about your backstory. Tell us about yourself.

Yeah, where do I start? So I was born and— I was kidding.

That's where I start. I—

my backstory, it's interesting because I've actually been really doing a lot of self-reflection lately. So my backstory is I have— I went to school for marketing, so undergrad for marketing. I went for an MBA, ended up going to it with a PhD in general psychology. And so I've always been interested in communication. And where I was talking about self-reflection, my backstory, even when I was a kid, I would type stories on my parents' typewriters. And I didn't play house, even though I have kids now, I didn't play house as much as I would play teacher. And yeah, and that's what's really interesting. Oh yeah, I would set up my dolls. I would have my, my not whiteboard, there were no whiteboards. Dating myself, I had a chalkboard, so I would put the chalkboard together. But it's interesting, and the reason we've been bringing that up was with my journey, and I'll talk a little bit about my experience. It's been related to those two things. No matter what I did, it went back to what were those passions from when I was younger. And so I have been in marketing for over 20 years, and I started my business, Market Mindshift, in 2016. But I had been working at other agencies and decided, oh, I think I'm ready to do this myself. And. At the same time that I was starting my business, I actually started teaching at one of the large universities out here. And so for a while I was teaching full-time in the marketing department, and then I was running my business, which it was growing at the time, and then eventually worked on my PhD and wrote a book. And so it's just— that's just the real brief area. But personal level, I have two boys. One is going to school in Japan. He's graduated from high school, and he's on his way to Japan.

Wow, that's pretty amazing. So I know that you, as in your PhD program, in your dissertation, you looked at scarcity as a motivator for people in their decision-making. Tell me a little bit about that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's one of my favorite topics. I studied a lot about it. So to back up a little bit, again, I have that marketing background that I talked about, and so I've always been fascinated in what motivates people. Why do we make certain decisions? And I— that's why I went with the general psychology PhD, which I have a business background, so I'm not a practitioner when it comes to psychology. Um, it was a research-based degree, but as I started diving into the different types of things that motivate us, I kept coming across scarcity as one of the biggest influencers. And it makes sense when you stop and you think about it, because our ancestors, you think about them, they were trying to survive when there was scarce resources, scarce water, scarce food, looking for roof over their head to stay safe. And we've actually carried those feelings all the way to modern day. And the way that our brains are wired is our brain doesn't understand the difference between survival and scarcity and, oh, I just want to have that latest technology. And so that's why I ended up going down the road of looking at scarcity. And it was fascinating because we think we all know it, that scarcity is those emails you get that there's flash sale today only, or there's 5 seats left. But it's so much deeper than that. And then I realized that really, even in scarcity in business, if we all have scarcity, every single business has some form of scarcity. And if we just bring light to it, it actually does a service to our customers and it does a service to us. And so I ended up taking my dissertation and turned it into a McGraw-Hill book. So it was a fascinating process and I met a lot of amazing business leaders along the way.

Yeah. So in that way, I teach, I teach graduate school and I teach a course called Decision Making Under Stress and Conflict. And just as you pointed out, one of the, one of the principles is our brains cannot distinguish a physical threat from a social threat. And so when we see, have a social threat, we're going to have the same reactive response unless we train ourselves that we have if we saw a rattlesnake or a saber-tooth tiger. And to your point, this is evolutionary biology. It goes back millions and millions of years.

Absolutely.

Pretty much hardwired into us. So scarcity So how do you use scarcity from a marketing perspective? There's the obvious stuff. You get on some sales page or you get on a webinar, right? For the next, if you sign up in the next hour, you get all these bonuses, which is all BS. I don't know why people do that. It doesn't work. At least it doesn't work with me. So what's the more nuanced, yeah, absolutely, way of using scarcity as a marketing tool?

Yeah. And let me, and I'll give you some things, but just to back it up a moment, when I was doing all this research, we have psychological studies, we have neuro scans, so we know that scarcity does something just like you said. And then I've also done my own research as well. And I have been looking at things from the academic standpoint, but when I was working on my book, I ended up interviewing all kinds of people in business. So the founder of 1-800-Flowers, the former VP of global marketing for McDonald's, e-commerce founders, you just an array of people. And so the reason I'm bringing that up is because for me, even though I knew it from an academic standpoint, it was eye-opening because I realized that these businesses were using scarcity but in a total different way than we think about. And so let me give you some examples. So like you said, for example, one of the things— so 1-800-Flowers, they also own Harry David, if you— if people didn't know that. Yep. So they own Harry David. And Harry David, if you know anything about that brand, is it's gourmet food and Beverage is very focused on a, a niche market. And so sometimes it can be hard even with that, like how do you go beyond that in differentiating yourself? Because really scarcity is any kind of unavailability or restriction. So keep that in mind. I'm not talking about econ supply and demand. So one of the things that they did is they wanted their customers to feel special and part of something. And so they have a 7 million email database. Wouldn't that be nice? But they had sent out emails because they got the idea of there's some products that we come across that we can't sell to the masses because there's only 20 units or there's only 40 units. And so they actually decided to do subgroups, and they would open these up, and in the email they'd say, we're starting a new community, 20 people will be in it, and we are going to offer you very specific things. And so the example that Jim McCann had given me— and he's the the founder, is that he goes, for example, butter. There's, there was gourmet butter that they came across that this woman churns it in her house. And so she can only make so much. And these groups got to be a part of that. And then they would share stories within that community, within the emails. And so the next time one of those communities opened, it really was one of those things that caught people. And so the reason I'm bringing that up is because the takeaway, whether you're that size of 1-800-Flowers and Harry David or not, is that you could even do something for your customers that makes them feel like they're a VIP, they're special. So maybe it's certain virtual events, in-person events, it's things that you give them. And that is actually still scarcity because there is still some type of restriction. I could go on, as you can see, but that's just one example.

Let me give you an example of what I'm doing. So one of the things I do for my podcast guests, and I will do it for you too, you being my latest podcast guest, is I offer a free hour and 15-minute webinar, no marketing, no sales, on how to stop fights and arguments forever, how to calm any person by ignoring what they say. And I will offer that. I offer that to my— to the— you can bring in your clients, your prospects, your teams, whatever you— whoever you want to. It's yours. It's value for you and value that you can give out. But I only do this for podcast guests, right?

See, that's an example right there. That's an example. And again, the way that we're wired is we want to have something that not everyone else has too. And that's a huge thing.

That's right. So what got you curious about all of this?

Yeah, so again, it started back from my just love of writing, which is communication. And so a lot of the things when I was— I've always played around with words, of course, and marketing, because really my special— specialty in marketing is more on the the promotions side, meaning I'm putting messages out there and trying to draw customers in versus doing product pricing and things like that, or packaging. And so I would always play around with words and realize that, yeah, there's certain things— never to be manipulative, you don't want to do that, because trust me, I have a whole chapter in my book of like how that backfires, because you don't want to do that. It doesn't work, especially in today's day and age. We all have the internet, right? And we're all going to check on things, we're going to go on Reddit. But that playing around with words can really cause action. And so that's why when I was working on my PhD, I was looking at the influence factors and I'd actually met with Dr. Robert Cialdini, if you know who he is. Yeah. So he, he wrote the book Influence and he's in Arizona and he's— exact. So now you know how I met up with him. It was very easy. We went out for coffee and he's actually been tremendous endorsing my book, but we just sat and had some conversations and that's when I just realized, wow, I'm onto something here. And once you realize it was scarcity, it opens your eyes to everything too, as the, as the decision maker, or trying to get someone to make a decision. But it doesn't also mean that we're robots and we're going to hear something that's scarcity and we're just going to just make rush to something. It's just being aware. But from a business standpoint, it could just even mean what makes you different, what can you do for your customers, just like the example you gave. That's perfect.

It's so interesting to listen to you because one of the things that I teach is that there's no such thing as rationality. Every decision we make is an emotional decision. And once you recognize that and you recognize that every behavior is based on emotion, it completely changes the way you look at the world and how you see other people because they're no longer acting irrationally or chaotically or crazy. They're just being emotional. Yeah. They're being normal. It's normal to be emotional, right?

They're being human.

They're being human.

They're being human.

So that, and in my graduate class, that's what I teach my students. I say, look, when we're making decisions, we're making an emotional decision. Now we have critical thinking skills and we have a whole bunch of different skills we can apply to the decision-making process. Process. But at the end of the day, it's gonna be an emotional decision because you don't know what the outcome is. You never know the outcome of your decision. Usually you can predict, you can forecast, but it's never 100%. Even in the most benign decisions, things can go wrong. And so that insight really changes the way you think about the world. And I, I think what you're saying is a subset of that broader category that scarcity is an emotional it's an emotional reaction to the environment that drives decision-making.

Yeah. And there's actually a physical response to scarcity.

Absolutely.

Again, we, of course, from the outside, we don't know what's going on in our minds, but with CAT scans and MRIs, and we can see all the different activity. Plus, we've all been in that situation where you are trying to get something that's almost run out, and you're either trying online or you're at the store and you're watching something you want to buy run out of stock, or you're going to do black Friday shopping, we all know that feeling. At some point or another, you get the little sweaty palms, heart's pounding a little bit.

Anxiety response, right?

Yeah. That's scarcity. And I like what you said about emotions, cuz that is also another thing that, um, I've researched and talked about as well, because we do make our decisions on emotions, but then we try to give a rational explanation.

There isn't such thing as rationality.

Mm-hmm. And hope. So we'll try to say, we bought this car cuz it was safe versus we bought it cuz we looked good.

Yeah, it's not rational thinking. What we're really trying to do is use critical thinking or logic or quantitative or qualitative analysis or all the other tools we have for thinking to apply those tools to try to justify or explain an emotional decision to either greater or lesser success. Exactly. And in my world as a lawyer turned peacemaker, that becomes important because in conflict, everything is emotional.

Oh, yes.

And so we each— that's all I do is just work with emotions every day. So you've got this company, Market Mindshift.

Yep.

These are the kind of principles, these are the kind of principles that you use with your clients.

Yes.

Tell us a little bit about what Market Mindshift does.

Yeah, absolutely. So we are a marketing and training company. That's what we do. And so the marketing that we do, it is digital marketing and it's all ingrained in psychology and of course technology because That changes every day. And what we do with clients is we help them really determine who is it that they're trying to target or work with, and then how can you create the right communication, and then what avenue did you— do you go to to get that out there.

Where are they, right?

Yeah, where are they?

Where are they?

Exactly. But at the same time, I've realized, and this is a lot of my years even as a professor, is that there's also a huge gap with a lot of companies that have marketing people, but either they haven't— it's almost like continuing education. We don't have that in marketing, or it's a new marketer and they're just not up to speed. And so we created this very hands-on— it's a training and mentorship. I actually for a while was calling the weekly meetings office hours, but that's because it's my professor's talk, and I thought, I think we're the only ones who use office hours. And so I had to change that up a little bit. But, and the whole idea is just to help people fine-tune on their messaging, getting it out there.

Excellent. So you've been doing this for a while now. You started the company in 2016. Obviously you've got multiple graduate degrees. What is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work? What's your—

yeah, yeah. So for me, it's— I feel like the companies that we work with too, I— we're very passionate about helping them. So what gets me up in the morning or gets me excited is just the What can we do today to make a difference in the lives of those of our clients and their customers? And I know that sounds like grandiose, but that really is my motto. And so even with our business, we do a lot of give back to the community. We're involved because I feel like at the end of the day, that's what really matters is humans helping humans. And that's a huge thing of our why we even exist.

So you, I would imagine you feel a lot of satisfaction when you're able to help a client solve a marketing problem, help them define their audience. And their message, and then you watch it evolve and take off and, and the client sees success.

Yes, absolutely.

Feeling deep satisfaction around that. Yeah.

Because I always look at, again, the bigger picture of not just from the business perspective, but that means that the company is flourishing, which means their jobs are flourishing, which means families are flourishing. And so I just, I think about it more in a holistic way.

So Mindy, what do you think is unique about you that you bring to the table that has made you so successful in what you do?

I think it's interesting cuz I know empathy is a big thing. Thinking about that, I feel like that I'm naturally like, I really try to understand what someone else is thinking, going through all that and, and just really be listening too. So that's what I loved. I was so excited to come on your podcast cuz I feel like that's a huge thing for me. And the other thing that I feel like has really helped with my success is I always want to learn. That's why I ended up going for a PhD when my kids were young at the time too, which I did go into it a little cocky thinking, I like school, this is gonna be easy. And then 5 and a half years later, a lot more gray hair. That wasn't easy, but it was worth it. So I think that just constant curiosity to learn has been something that's really helped me.

Wow. Yeah. The, I have the phrase listening others into existence. The most important thing we can do to another human being is— and what people want more than anything else is to be heard and validated, right? And it never happens because we've never really learned how to listen to other people from their frame of reference. We listen to people from our own frame of reference, but we don't listen to people from the speaker's frame of reference. And so they— people never feel heard, they feel ignored. They feel abandoned and rejected, unloved, and that creates a lot of relationship problems.

Um, right.

That's why I say in relationships, abandon reason. Reason has no, no place in relationships. And learn how to listen. Mm-hmm. Which is what I choose. Let's talk about that. What have you learned about listening?

Yeah, it's interesting cuz when I was teaching full-time, that we had a whole chapter in marketing where you talked about communication and listening. And I would, with what you said, it was a silly exercise that I would do with my undergrads, but I would have them sit back to back, just a pair of them, and one person has an abstract line drawing and the other one has their pen and their paper handy, and that person with the picture has to describe to the other person. And I always did that because it was the same thing with what you just said, is at the end my— because it was never just— wasn't— so it was always funny and fun, but the point of that was just saying, listen, when we are trying to think about things from our point of reference, our experiences, what we believe to be true, and you just have to truly listen into what that person is saying. What would you feel like if you were that person? What— how would they be coming at you with this? And so that's even something— one of my career, I'd worked at an agency and I was in charge of the content team, and we had 40 writers and editors, and that was one of the things I used to teach them. And I would say, I know it's going to sound goofy, I said, but I don't want you to write anything until you close your eyes and you really truly understand what it would be like to be on the other end reading your content, that you have that problem you're trying to describe. And it was interesting, I could always tell the difference when someone did that versus when they're like, yeah, I think I know this, I'm good. You just— it's— there's a huge thing.

Yeah, and it's really difficult. Until we think we know what our audience wants. I'm working with some people out of Florida that have been helping me and, and we've done a bunch of Facebook testing. We call it the Post-it note test where you just put a phrase on a Post-it note and see what kind of, as a Facebook ad and see what kind of response you get. And it turns out that the phraseology of the problems that people have around not being listened to or around difficult conversations, the kind of stuff that I work with. Varies whether you're male or female, and it varies by age. Different phrases, different ideas, different benefits all vary dramatically depending upon who you are and where you are in life, which was surprising and not surprising. It was surprising to me that it was so radically stratified, right, where you could really see the differences.

But I love that you did the test and you realized—

yeah, and now, you know, we're still doing— we're— it's all based on data. So now we're— we've tested phrases, now we're testing images. We've got a call to action. We're testing calls to action. Everything is just really regimented to find out what, who is the audience and resonating with them.

Yeah, absolutely. We've, I've been doing, I've been creating webinars, so I do a lot of webinars too. And so I ended up same thing. I have 3 webinars and wanted to test. There was one that I thought would be the most interesting versus the others.

Right.

Exactly. You know, and just watching the one that people gravitate to, I'm like, okay, the audience has spoken, you know? And sometimes it doesn't. What I'm interested in that you're interested in.

Interested in, you learn that the audience may not be interested in what you're interested in. It may be something completely different.

Exactly.

That's right. And I know the webinar that I do, the introductory webinar I do today is completely— it's got the same basic content, but it's presented in a completely different way than when I first started. I started out as being a professor.

That was when I did my first book draft. My agent's comment was, this is academic. I don't think anyone's going to read it. I had to go back and make it Like normal.

I mean, I, I've written 4 books and my writing evolved from being very academic. My first book, which was a textbook to my last book, which is Simon Schuster, was a paperback with the general audience and a completely different writing style. Actually, what I did, I did a complete analysis of blanking on his name, author of Blink, uh, New Yorker magazine, really famous author. Anyways, I analyzed his work to see what was his writing style, what was his book structure that got his book so popular. And then I just I basically took that model and adopted it, and my book's done very well.

That's great.

Oh, but you're right. What you think people want is not always what they think they want.

Yeah.

So you're still pretty young. Where do you see yourself going in the next 10 or 15?

I think that was a big compliment. I don't know if I'm pretty young.

Relative to me, you're pretty young.

So now for me, I, with my business, will continue. I feel so strongly about educating people and of course helping people. And I'm talking, when I see people, of course clients, right? But I want to just continue to evolve even the knowledge that we put out there. So building up our training even more and continuing to put that out there because I love, again, I love to teach and I have this subject that I know, plus I'm always studying it and I just want to get it out there and help others. And so that's where I see us going as a company. We have our services and they're amazing, but just also just building up that knowledge base for others.

Yeah, that's really powerful because at the end of the day, serving others is where there's meaning. You can make all the money in the world you want, but if you don't— if you're not helping others and serving others, and it doesn't mean anything. And that's why so many— there's so many unhappy billionaires, right?

Yeah, true.

They've made a lot of money, but they have no meaning in their life. So one more question, I'll let you go, Mindy. Okay. One thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us.

Oh, that— I could go so many different directions with that one, actually. And I don't know if this one's too aha, but people close to me always laugh when they hear it. I actually— I'm in Arizona, so I love to hike. I like the hard uphill ones, but for some reason I don't give off that vibe. And I don't think that's a compliment. People are like, you hike?

I can see that, and you've got some big mountains.

We got some Big Map. I love it. But that's always a funny response I get from people. I'm like, oh, I've done Camelback, I've done all the hard ones. But yeah, something I love.

You don't go hiking this time of year though when it's 120.

No. So they even now finally— I think this might have been the first year they closed down trails at a certain time because never failed there would be people, and usually it's people visiting Arizona because those that live here, you would never ever go out there, that end up having to get helicopter to take them down the mountain.

So with heat stroke or whatever, when it's 115, you don't go out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. I live in Central California, just south of Yosemite National Park. So we've got big mountains right here too. So yeah, yeah, I get that. Thank you so much. It's been a real joy speaking with you.

Same. Thank you so much for having me today. You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much. For listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnolldiy.com.