280 - Curiosity-Driven Leadership: How Listening Can Change Your Business with Integrated Equity Management's Cammy Smith

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Cammie Smith, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO and president of a company in Bloomfield, Minnesota called Integrated Equity management, and I think you're in the financial advisory business. Tell us a little bit about your backstory, about how you got to where you are today.

Awesome. Thank you, Doug, so much for having me. And I'm, I've been really looking forward to meeting and talking with you because I think you also have an interesting background and you share some things in common with my, a poem, one of my favorite poems and a poet, the poem Desiderata and the poet of this poem. Max Ehrmann was an attorney before he became a writer. And so I noticed you shared that background. And this is a poem that my grandpa passed along on my mom's side of the family. And so I noticed that and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. Lawyer turned humanitarian. So much we can learn. So yes, I'm the CEO and president of Integrated Equity Management, and we're based in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul in Minnesota. And I really fell into the industry by accident and not so much. My father actually started in the industry in '76, and he was a financial advisor who was maybe going to become an accountant and said, what I really want to do is help people reach their goals through their finances. And so that's what he set off to do. And at the time he was really visionary on this idea of integrated, integrated equity management, financial planning, where you're not just coming from one facet or another. And so I learned a lot from him and that has helped me get to where I am today and where we are today. My story was a little bit different. It seems to make more sense as I look back and in retrospect, but I was a pre-med and Spanish major turned business. And after college and university, I said, I want to do something different and moved abroad to Venezuela to teach English and to learn Spanish fluently. And so that's what I did at 21 years old and buying a one-way ticket on my parents' credit card. And yes, exactly. And, uh, great. That kind of started my story, but I learned there that I loved helping people, especially through education. I love to see the impact that it was making on the people and on results. And I love— I also learned that direct impact was going to be important to me. But I learned that I loved helping teaching people, but not in a classroom setting. And so when I came back to the States at 22 and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, because I really had no clue after I decided I didn't want to go to medical school and My dad said, why don't you try our business? You can do all of those things. Plus you're really good at math. And it's probably a little bit true. I won the math award in high school, which I'm pretty proud of. And so that's when I started with him. And that was fall of 2007, right before the credit crisis. And yeah, baptism by fire. And as a 22-year-old, I learned so much that I'm so grateful that I started when I did. My job was just to listen to conversations on the phone and in person. And I ran trades down the hall. I kept track of different things on accounts through this very unprecedented time. And I think that is really what started me off in my career to really learn what's important. And that is people and relationships and something you love, Doug, which is listening.

It's so interesting that your story really tracks my father's story. He was one of the very first people to not be— he was a stock— he, he was in retail furniture for a long time, but then he became in his forties, became a stockbroker. And as soon as the law loosened up in the early '70s, he and a very close friend opened one of the very first financial advisory firms in the country that was independent from a stock brokerage firm and the New York Stock Exchange. And he started in the Great Recession of '71, '72, something like that. And he said that was, he said it was the best thing that ever happened to him because you start out in a bad market, And everything after that is easy.

Yeah, I don't know if it's easy, but, but at least it gives a little different perspective, right? Exactly. You kind of know, learn how to weather the ups and downs. And as a, a 22-year-old, that was so important. And again, to learn that our business is really about people and these people that were suffering 20, 30% declines in their accounts, and maybe some of them had just retired. That's very impactful for a 22-year-old who doesn't yet have that, that connection or life experience. Yeah. So I agree with you. Wow. That's really something connection.

One thing you didn't mention is that you have an MBA, but it's not a normal MBA. You went to Spain. Tell us about that.

Yeah. So along the way with working with my dad and his, his co-founder Bob Dalla, I learned that I loved the challenge of being involved in these complex cases and working with people, but I also realized that maybe I wanted to do more. And so I was informally started managing the office and wanted to learn how do these systems work and how do these programs work and. How does leadership work? And I really realized that I, one, wanted to make more impact maybe on companies or people or towns bigger than just our clientele in Minnesota. Secondly, I was missing that international exposure. And then third, I really wanted to learn how to prepare myself for the future in this virtual world. And when financial services, we were a bit behind the times back then in 2012 and 2014. And so I chose that I wanted to go to business school and do an MBA, but I wanted to do it differently. And it was really calling to me to learn about business and life out side of the United States. And that's why I chose to do an international MBA through a top-ranked program at a school in Spain called Instituto de Empresa, or IE for short. And so we, I took sabbatical and my now spouse and I moved across the big pond. And yes, I did a bilingual Spanish and English degree and at IE, which was one of the best catapulting life-changing experiences.

I, I can only imagine. Tell us a little bit, bit more about how that experience helped you grow.

I think what was really helpful was I, I had a little bit of this kind of chip on my shoulder about going and joining my dad's business and, and what that would mean. So it was important for me to start to understand as a 29-year-old, well, who am I really outside of that? So I think that was part of the deeper stuff that I was trying to figure out, but also I was trying to figure out to how to connect all these dots. And what I learned from there is One, I met my tribe, as I call them, my now personal board of directors with some of my best, 4 best female friends that live across the world, and they help as a sounding board to me and, and all of us together about how do we live happy lives that make impact. And secondly, I learned to put words on what I'm so passionate about, which is this as a platform for good, right, and for change, and specific business in, in impact investing or ESG. And so I think that kind of all three of those things, plus it was really fun. You know what I mean? Working to live and not living to work and being in the backdrop of Madrid for me, who's somebody who's pretty driven and high energy and a recovering perfectionist, was a really good environment for me to do that, to learn also about connecting with people and slowing down and just enjoying the glass of wine in the plaza because we can.

Good for you. So you were there, what, for 2 years?

I was there for a little bit over 2 years, and then I also had the opportunity to work in a social venture capital fund in Madrid called CREA. It's just an amazing company, and I had a great mentor there, Fran, who helped continue to develop me and give feedback on what I might do to grow or to use different maybe business models or skills as I brought them back to the United States in 2020. 2016.

I'm curious, how did all of that experience inform what you do, do today as a leader, not only in your own business but in, in the community that you reside?

I think the things that I remember most and, and still practice today is, is one, about the people on the sounding board. It, for me, it's so important to surround myself with people who can help mirror things to me, maybe good and bad, or maybe there's no judgment, maybe it's not good or bad. And to be a sounding board and people who love me and who I can trust. And so I can feel vulnerable with them. I think that's another thing that I learned. I remember early in the MBA program, I said something that came off, let's just call it a little bit US-centric in my class when we were going through our case.

The ugly Americans, right?

Yes, yes, exactly. And if I'm not American enough, right? And I remember asking my husband Alex and, and my friends, what should I do to clear the air? And they said, Do that, clear the air. And so I wrote a text to our WhatsApp group saying, I don't know exactly what I said, but I, I know that it didn't come off right and I'm just really sorry. And from that moment I gained more friendship, I think, and respect that really helped through the rest of the MBA. And so there I learned to just, it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be vulnerable and it's okay to just be humble in that walk of life. And I think that has really helped me as a growing leader.

Exactly.

And I think I also, I learned some stuff about businesses and systems and business models. And that to me is just about creativity. Right.

So you've been at this now for, I don't know, 15 years or so. What is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work?

The most exciting thing for me to go to work is the impact that we make on our clients. That is really the, the thing that keeps us ticking. And I don't work with uh, many clients anymore at all. My job is really to prepare the business for its sustainability for many generations to come. But as an organization, we want to make clients feel taken care of and free. And we do that by helping individuals and families, and we do that by sharing our wisdom and knowledge and helping advisors go independent from captive environments. And we help them break away to become independent fiduciaries without all of the headaches of, of owning a business. And the satisfaction and fulfillment that I've seen in, in my dad as we've done this path, in end clients as they've retired, or when recently when I said goodbye to a client before he passed away from cancer, it's just, it's something that is just so fulfilling and profound. Wow.

Helping others find success and freedom. That sounds, sounds like the theme of what you've been talking about here, because you've had that, you've had a lot of freedom in your life.

Oh gosh, I think so. I hope so. I like being free. Not easy, those American cages are, right?

So when you say that freedom is not easy, I think that's really, that's, uh, a really important point. People talk about freedom, but they don't realize that it comes with a lot of personal accountability and responsibility. You just can't go out and do what you want to do. You got to be thoughtful about what you're doing.

I think so. And I think for me, it's like having a process because otherwise like life can take over. So having a process to ask others, coach individuals, and also my own reflection, right? To figure out what are the things that are keeping me down or closed or tight right now. And so I build that into my schedule. I follow a lot of things from the EOS system and Traction system, and that helps me even with the clarity break periods and to figure out what do those things mean. And now with a 14-month-old daughter and, and my husband and a blooming family. It's changing and evolving just as it has over the last 15 or 17 years.

So I'm curious, what is it do you think that's unique about yourself that, that has made you so successful?

Hmm. Gosh, I don't know.

You gotta park the humility, park the humility for a minute and dig deeper.

Yeah.

My, everybody that's listening to you is, we're all impressed by you. And we wanna know, what is it about Kamiya that makes her so special?

Thank you, first of all. And gosh, I think I've been blessed with— you talked about the hard work, the discipline. For some reason, I just, I practice discipline in a lot of different areas, even though I don't think of myself as that person, because I don't do all of these like extreme sports that you do. Like, I just try to go through my day with how to be happy and how to help other people, but I stick. To that maybe purpose or those values. I think another thing that's unique with me is that I have a spirit, and that's— it can be pretty fiery at some points in time. But I've noticed that that spirit seems to draw other people in, and it draws me to other people. And that's the reason why I learned Spanish and other languages, is to be able to connect with other people. And I just find people fascinating. And so I think that's one thing that is unique about me that's helped me in business and in life. And then maybe it's just like the combination of these gifts that I've gotten in whatever combination that, that nurture and nature has evolved them to today. I'm really grateful for that.

A math genius who goes to Venezuela to teach English to Spanish-speaking people and then ends up getting an international MBA in Madrid, Spain.

Yes. Yeah.

That probably sounds about right. Something like that.

Yeah. Something like that.

And now as the president and CEO of a family-owned company. Yeah. So you, you mentioned listening earlier. How did you learn how to listen?

We can look at the different lenses, right? I'm the only girl with 4 brothers in my family. And so there's that, there's a perspective there. I'm the, the second oldest. My brother and I are only a year apart. So I'm on the older end. And so sometimes you read these things that say birth order or your gender or, that I grew up Catholic and that was— there's all these things that, that say that. And maybe it is some of those nurture things. But I think the other part is, and it's not always easy, but by— I'm really curious about what other people have to say or, or what they're feeling or just the perspectives that we all bring to the table because we're— my best friend's said something this morning and I thought, oh my gosh, that's how her brain works. I had never had that perspective. And so the more and more I can slow down and step outside the me stuff, right? And right now I'm in a phase of my life that's a lot of logistics, right? What do I have to do for the baby and for this and for that and for the business? But to the extent that I can slow down and really be curious and empathize and stay in that place, I think has made me a better listener and just a better person over time.

It's so interesting that you use the word curious. I interviewed the CEO of the Arbinger Institute in Salt Lake City. That's a— Arbinger Institute's a very high-powered consulting firm that does a lot of leadership development. I asked him, When you're hiring people to come in and do coaching and, and work with clients, what do you look for?

Mm-hmm.

The most important, of course, they gotta have high skill sets, but beyond that, they have to be curious. They have to want to learn and know about people. And that's just exactly what you said. I think that's a learning how to listen really requires that kind of curiosity. And there are different kinds of listening. The kind of, there's, I, I categorize as Type 1 listening and Type 2 listening. And so Type 1 listening is the kind of listening that everybody does where it's my agenda. I'm asking questions. It's for me cuz I want information or I, I wanna be heard or whatever it might be. And I'm really not listening to you. I'm listening for my own agenda. And there's Type 2 listening, which is where my whole agenda is to make sure that you feel heard and validated.

Hmm.

And, and that you feel like you've been deeply understood. And that's a whole different kind of listening that most people don't know how to— that's the kind of listening that I teach. And that's the kind of listening that goes more towards what you're talking about, you being curious, what's this person experiencing right now? You know?

And Doug, so how do you go— because there's different times that you use these different types of listening, right? And it might be almost simultaneous. How do you switch between the two?

It's really easy. It's a different kind of listening. For example, if I, if I'm listening to you, Cammie, and I do flip the switch, all of a sudden I'm listening to you and I start focusing on what are your emotions right now? You're curious, you're excited, you're happy, you feel pride. You're finding, you're finding that our conversation is pretty interesting and it's giving you, you're feeling like it's time well spent. Notice how I validated?

Yes, right.

So that's Type 2 listening. It wasn't about me at all. The other kind of listening is the conversation we've been having where I've been probing and asking questions, allowing you to talk, but really it's been— as the podcast, um, podcaster, I'm the one that's controlling the direction of the conversation. So that's Type 1 listening, where I am listening to you But I, it's my agenda. You see the difference?

Yes. Yes. And we see it every day and I do it every day and I feel it every day. Right, right, right.

And you would use the first type of listening, the kind of Type 2 listening, you use it whenever there's emotion.

Hmm.

It could be happy, like you got a 14-year-old daughter. If you wanna see, see it in action next time when you see her later today, um, and she gets really excited, say, oh honey, you're really excited. You really have— 14-month-old can pick that up and, and watch her light up because you're paying attention to her. It's really powerful. There's all kinds of brain science behind all why all this works the way that it does. But anyways, so what do you do in the presence of people who are not particularly good listeners, which happens all the time?

It's so fascinating because I don't know what I categorize. If I ask myself, am I a good listener? I don't know that I would say on average I am a good listener. And maybe I'm not, maybe I am, but I don't have a reference point because I'm not in anyone else's experience to know whether I am or I am not. But so even that thought right now is throwing me for a loop. And I was also thinking about what the, what captivated my attention was your Prison for Peace project.

Prison of Peace, right?

And teaching adults, especially in highly fueled situations and people who don't have these life skills, but many of us don't have these life skills. And it just keeps bringing me back to this idea of why do we not teach this in schools? Just like, why do we not teach financial literacy, right? Basic things is something I'm passionate about in schools for young kids, junior high, high school age kids. Gosh, it seems like it'd be really basic to help create and impact change in those areas.

Yeah, exactly. Imagine walking into a maximum security prison. In fact, the, the, the story I love to tell is our, when Laurel and I started the project back in 2010, we started in the, the largest, most violent women's prison in the world with 15 women, all who were serving life or long-term sentences. They'd all killed somebody for some one reason or another. And our, what we were coming in to do is to teach them how to be peacemakers to stop prison violence. And they did it. And 3 years later, there were— that prison had completely quieted down. And we had over, I don't know, out of a population of 3,200 women in the prison, we trained about— we and the women that we trained to be trainers had trained about a third of the women how to be peacekeepers in the prison. And we saw the same effect in every prison we've been into. Right now we're in 15 California prisons. The Connecticut prison system, 13 or 14 prisons in Greece. I think we're in 3 or 4 prisons in Italy. It's going international and expanding.

And amazing.

Everybody gets the same results. Laura was over in Europe this summer and she reported to me saying, I was sitting in an Italian prison, couldn't speak Italian, but many people speak English over there. And I said, we could have been at Valley State Prison. It was exactly the same. The, the people, the students were exactly the same everywhere. And we're having the same effect as we have, have had in the California prisons. Pretty cool.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

And, and this is one of the, the outcomes, but another outcome is we talked about freedom, right? What personal freedom are you helping these people practice that they've never felt before? How to express their emotion.

That's right.

And how to do so without conflict. How do we even identify or validate their emotions and then express them and help? That's amazing.

It's powerful. Incredible. We've had 700, 700 life inmates released that have gone through our program in California. Only one of them has reoffended.

Hmm. Wow.

So you raise the right question. Why aren't we teaching these skills and why aren't we teaching financial literacy and stuff that's really important? It's because we've got an educational system that's based on a 19th century model of education that's, and it's antiquated. And the people that teach education learned from people who were imbued in that model. That's the only model they know. And it's publish or perish. And they are, they don't have the freedom to move get outside the guardrails and think about other ways of, other kinds of curriculums to teach. And we got, then you get into the core curriculum, which was developed back in 2008, 2009, which is really powerful. And that came right up against the culture wars. And so that was the end of that. And the other problem is how do you teach teachers to teach this stuff? For example, if you're gonna teach socioemotional learning in schools, which is what this is, right? Then as a teacher, you have to be social, you have to be emotionally literate yourself. People don't spend any time teaching teachers how to be emotionally competent. But if you're not emotionally competent, how can you teach emotional competency to kids? It's a big problem, but you're right.

Hopefully with our generation where we're learning, I don't know about my, my, my cold millennial parents. We've got, we got some big fish to fry, but yeah. But again, how do you, as you said before, people who don't, aren't listening or aren't good listeners, I guess. For me, I really try to discern, well, if I notice somebody is not listening in that context, or if it's important, I try to discern the situation. Okay, what's the audience and what's happening? Is this a short-term thing or a long-term thing? Do I care? Maybe I don't care that somebody is not listening.

Absolutely.

Maybe that's not the point. But I think for me, again, it's like slowing down and helping people maybe step out of themselves to get to that point of empathy. You think about The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. So be impeccable with my word. Don't think, take things personally. Don't make assumptions. And do my best. Just even those first two or the first, if imagine if we all just live by the, the Four Agreements, then a lot of the conflict could be avoided. But maybe conflict is great.

Conflict is necessary because it, it produces growth. What is not good is negative conflict that's uncontrolled. Yeah. And You know, what, what I teach people is you'll never have a fight or argument again in your life once you learn these skills. It doesn't mean you won't have conflict, right? But it means is you won't have a fight or argument over the conflict.

And that's really where the turmoil is created, right? The aversion to conflict resolution. That's where the emotional turmoil is.

That's right. And so when I encounter people who are not listening, then I'm asking myself, what's distracting them? Hmm. Are they angry?

Mm-hmm.

Are they offended? Are they distracted by something else? There's something emotional going on inside them that they may not even be aware of. That's causing them not to be focused in the moment. And so that's what I'll start paying attention to and then try to address it. So you're really— you are really pissed off, Cammy. You're really frustrated right now, and you feel completely disrespected and not heard and invisible. And I'll just call it out until I get it. And then, yeah, okay, what do we need to do to solve that problem?

And so Based on your point.

Exactly. Exactly. But the, the key is not to try to help somebody engage in problem solving too early.

Hmm.

And this is a big mistake that people make. How many times have you been upset and somebody came to you and tried to solve a problem and what did it do? All it did is frustrate you and piss you off. You didn't want to be, you didn't wanna solve a problem. You wanted to be heard.

Yes. Yes.

And that's the mistake that a lot of people make. And the key is to have the patience to manage your own anxiety. Because the reason people wanna problem solve is because they're anxious about your emotions. The brain is saying, if I can get Cami to calm down, then I'm gonna feel better about myself.

I'm like, mm-hmm.

And so the key is to learn how to manage your anxiety, calm you down, and then we can start talking about whatever it is that's important to talk about. Mm-hmm.

So where do you find is a good, cuz I'm realizing as you say this, I think maybe I do this naturally and haven't put words on these things, but when I've gotten into trouble and I still do is this kind of concept of boundaries. Ah, after I've listened and then I'm, and then there's sometimes a part of me that gets a little too intertwined and then I try to help too much. So where, how do you, okay.

So the secret is not to, the secret is not to help.

Yeah.

Don't ever give, you're just, the rule is, and this is funny coming from a lawyer, right? Don't ever give advice. Let people solve their— you can engage in a process where you help them solve their own problem, but you, you really don't give them, you really don't give them advice. And actually, when I was a practicing lawyer many years ago, I did that for 22 years as a civil trial lawyer. My best lawyering was when I didn't give advice. I would tell people, this is what the law is, and this is what— these are the possible outcomes of this dispute. Now you've gotta figure out what you want to do. I'm not gonna make your decision for you. I'm not gonna solve this problem. You're gonna solve the problem. I will help you implement the solution, but it's your solution. And now today, then when I became a mediator, then that became really important because as a mediator, you can't solve another person's problem. It's unethical. You can, you help them solve the problem. They've gotta figure it out. You can't do it for them.

But that also doesn't mean that there's no boundaries, right? Business application, right? You're naming here is the policy, or here is, here are the guidelines of what we've established to be the code of conduct at XYZ Company or with the other—

Exactly. So, so the boundary setting is simply being in a, having, knowing what the, the guardrails are in all different contexts and just making sure you stay within them. And you do that by empowering other people. Boundaries get violated because we're taking power away.

Yes, exactly. Then you're dehumanizing. And it also doesn't mean that I have to take anything on, or this is anything for me to take beyond that conversation.

Exactly.

I think that's where I've gotten into trouble with that.

Well, here's, and here's where, when people are, people who are people pleasers, they've learned that to survive, I can please others. That's when they get into really severe boundary violations because rather than giving other people responsibility for that, the other person's problem, they take it on themselves. And that creates, that's, that is always a recipe for chaos and disaster.

This must be a common theme, right? I think I talk to my peers and colleagues and I think a lot of us struggle with that same, where is the boundary, right? And how do you help your employees or your clients or your stakeholders? That's maybe stakeholders, but for, for us it's probably clients, right? And employees.

So the secret in my opinion is good listening. Listening and validating where they're at so they become emotionally calmed down, right? And then engage in a conversation or a negotiation that helps them solve their own problem. And that way you maintain very clear boundaries. You're acting in a consultative— you're acting as a consultant in many ways where you're not trying to fix things, you're trying to help keep them level-headed, de-escalate them, And then once they're de-escalated and they feel heard, then the, the, their prefrontal cortex comes back online. And now oftentimes they can figure it out for themselves. Now, in my business, it's a little tougher because oftentimes in the conflicts that I get called into, there are no good choices. They've gotta choose, choose the least worst, right, option in front of them. And that's hard for people to do, but they still have to do it. You can't walk away from this stuff, otherwise it, it gets The worst choice is to not do anything. But I think that's where real listening comes in. And I think that's how you maintain your boundary.

Mm-hmm.

Don't try to fix people. You can validate and listen to them and then engage in a conversation that allows them to understand what their choices are and their options, and then let them make a decision.

It's fascinating because this, this is what we do with clients all day long, right? It's not our job to define their goals. It's to help them define their goals or to help a couple define what their mutual goals are or not. And then in, in the set of the priorities, then how do we get there?

And it's always an emotional conversation because money is an emotional subject with people.

Absolutely.

To your point, it's financial freedom, it's security, and it's always emotion.

And that empowers so much other, other, the other aspects and avenues of life.

So absolutely correct. So learning how to listen to emotions seems like a pretty powerful skill for people in your business to have. Anyways, that— so I think that's it. And I think that way you avoid boundary crossing and not keeping a clean definition of what the relationship is. You can— you have to care, but not too much.

Yeah, exactly. Thank you for that. That's a great perspective.

Yeah, that was taught to me a long time ago, uh, by a colleague. He said, when you walk into these conflicts, You have to care, but you can't care too much. You gotta be able to walk out at the end of the session, and if they don't resolve the conflict, you just, you walk back. It's not your conflict.

Mm-hmm.

You can't, as much as you see the pathway to peace, if they don't see it and they don't wanna walk it, there's nothing you can do about that.

Hmm. So, well, that's actually interesting cuz you, you talked about then it's unethical and it, and it's true. Pulling that string a little further, you see how that then can become unethical, right?

That's right. That's right. Because if they, if you don't have a really good sense of the totality of everything, a lot, but not everything. And maybe their path is something that they, they haven't seen yet. And if you force 'em down a different path because you think that's the right path for where they're at, that could be a really bad decision for them.

And ultimately we're not in anyone else's experiences. This is right.

That's right. And sometimes People have to go through disaster in order to learn and grow.

Right.

And if we prevent that from happening out of the kindness of our heart, because we see they're walking into disaster, maybe we're doing them a disservice.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a hard call because none of us wants to see people hurt. And, but on the other hand, we can't control people either. So all we can do, all I can do, at least in my work, is give people their options, describe what the, all the outcomes are for each option. Here's what could happen. And then say, what do you think you want to, what do you wanna do? And then help them work towards that goal. It's the same thing that you do, only I'm dealing with conflict and you're dealing with money.

Yeah.

A lot of times I'm dealing with, a lot of times I'm dealing with money too. Huge amounts of money.

Exactly. I'm thinking conflict and money and conflict sounds pretty familiar, actually. Actually, right.

One, one more, one more question, Cami, and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself— you've told us a lot about yourself, it's been really interesting— but what's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

I feel like I have these kind of two prominent parts of my being, and there's a lot in the prism that go into it, but I refer to them as Cami or Camille, right? And Camila. Oh, and it's this sort of yin yang. Yes, it's this sort of yin and yang, but the Cami— and so if you talk about what do I see as attributes, so I'm being vulnerable now, but I think that this has added to my success because the Cami and the Camille is, is a little bit more pragmatic and organized and linear and math, and there's a lot of things you might also see. Yes, Minnesotan in the personality. And then the Camila is this— that's the little wild That's the creativity and the learning languages and the connection and everything that's— yes, Latin, that goes along with it. Warm, sun, culture, food, vibrant. And I think that those two, I pick up things in both of those parts of me that when one gets shut off for a little too long, then I'm, I don't feel like I'm my healthiest self or my best self.

I can see it in your eyes.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much. This has been really a really fun conversation, Cami.

Thank you, Doug. I learned so much from you. I, I appreciate it.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you So you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.