281 - Overcoming Resistance: How Vulnerability Can Transform Leadership Dynamics with Kyle McDowell Inc.'s Kyle McDowell

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are a former corporate guy, rose through the ranks, and as I understand it, then left, got a non-compete that caused you to be on the sidelines for a while, wrote a book called the— called— ooh, you're going to tell me the name of the book. We, right?

Begin with We.

Begin with We. We'll talk about it. And today, not only are you a book author, but you're a leadership development coach and inspirational speaker, and you help people figure out how to prevent dysfunction in their organizations or actually help them get rid of the dysfunction, eradicate it, eradicate it. Welcome to the show.

Hey man, it's great to be here, Doug. Thank you for having me.

Thanks, Kyle. I, I'm curious a little bit about your backstory. Tell us a little bit about your corporate journey and then how you transitioned out of that.

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

What you're doing today.

You bet, man. I entered the corporate world. Funny story. I applied for a role with a regional bank here in Florida at the age of 17, and I rolled the dice that should I actually convince them to hire me, the offer would come after my 18th birthday. So interviewed in, uh, June of 1993, got hired in August of 1993, and I started climbing the ladder, uh, from that moment on. And I began like most— I would imagine most of your guests as well as your audience— very humble beginning. So I, I started in a cubicle that was probably 3x3 and just managed to work my way up through bigger and bigger spheres of influence to ultimately, before I stepped away to write my book, I led tens of thousands of employees at— I worked for 3 Fortune 10 firms. As a matter of fact, my last 2 roles combined, I led collectively 30,000 people around the globe. And for me, it was all about— for the first 20 years of that journey, so I was in a— I was a corporate guy for nearly 30 years, 28 years. And I— it was this really weird thing started to happen around year 16 or 17, as my responsibilities and scope of influence continued to increase, so did my level of apathy for the work I was doing, which is a real kind of hard pill to swallow when you start to resent the very environments that you're responsible for creating and managing and nurturing. And I grew so disconnected from the work that I was doing that my apathy was, was palpable. The bureaucracy that I experienced, the duplicity that was— seemed to surround me, just felt like that I, I just reached a boiling point where I knew that I had a bigger purpose, or at least I hoped I had a bigger purpose, even though by most standards I was quote unquote successful. But we all have different kind of criteria for that. I made a promise to myself around year 24 that I was gonna step away. And as you mentioned, I— the organization I left at the time, big pharmaceutical company, And they're pretty big on non-competes. So when I stepped away from that role, I had 15 months to decide what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I had a really powerful experience at a firm just before, the pharmaceutical firm where I created these principles that really turned around an entire culture of 15,000 employees, driving business results to where we had never seen them before, but more importantly, creating really authentic and genuine leaders where we were really polluted with bosses, people that could manage well but not necessarily lead. And those principles were the genesis and the foundation for my book. And that's— essentially spend almost every waking hour now evangelizing the principles that I not only really work hard to get folks to understand the value to be found by them inside of your work life, but also the profound impact these principles can have on our work life. And to cut to the chase, there are 10 principles. They each begin with the word 'we.' I'm not super creative, so that gives me the 10 'we's. And they are the tool that I've used to create what I now call a culture of excellence. And it's been a wild ride, man. This book has become My, my, as I mentioned to you before we started, the book was a passion project and now it's become my life's purpose, which is really fun to chase.

Good for you. We have a parallel story. I was a trial lawyer, civil, very successful civil trial lawyer for 22 years. And then through a series of events that I won't bore you with, left. Oh, actually I went back to school and earned my master's degree in my late forties and left the practice of law, left $10 million on the table, walked away to become a peacemaker. In 2000. And respect, good for you. Incredible. Yeah, after that.

Wow, very cool.

So one of the— I— so one of the things that you work— you talk about in your book is the— when you're talking about we, it's really getting people off of ego and into collaboration and creating emotional safety and all these principles. I'm curious, when you're out talking about this, how much resistance do you get from people about being vulnerable and authentic, because that is really the secret to all of this.

Well said, my man.

How much risk are you seeing?

Not as much as one might think, because when I take the stage or I partner with a company or even just an individual leader who's looking for some help, sharing real-life experiences of how this shift for me to principle-based leadership has been so impactful and delivered levels of fulfillment that I was simply unable to find before I discovered this way of leading. So having a proof point of reality and, and multiple, at this point, multiple implementations of these principles at a variety of different industries within a variety of different industries, I think people are more open to things that are less theoretical or hypothetical and say, okay, and don't, you don't have to take my word for it. I, I've got, you know, dozens of testimonials of people that have, would say the same thing. So getting people to recognize the value on the other side of that vulnerability is easy for me. The principles that I evangelize are quite simple, but you of all people know simple does not mean easy.

That's correct.

So getting, right? So getting folks to understand, okay, if I want the same results, then I'll just do the same thing. But if I want a different result, if I wanna find more fulfillment, have a greater impact, I might wanna look at things a little bit differently. Okay, here's this guy telling me, setting my ego aside, investing my energy in those around me instead of myself. Will yield that type of result. And he's done it before, so maybe I should give that a chance. So that sell is easy. It's the actual living it every single day, every interaction of every day that is a much harder ask of people because—

making it habitual, right?

That's right.

That's right. So I just had an insight while you were talking and I just wanna reflect it and see if I'm, I'm, I'm on the right track and in your brain. You were in corporate world for 24 years. You said that as you got to the end, you started getting really apathetic. You were tired of the duplicity, the, all of the BS going on. And from that, I take it that you had the, the work that you were doing was not creating meaning in your life.

Right.

And what you were able to do when you stepped away from it all is figure out how, as a leader, you can create meaning in life. And you do that through service to others as a leader. Would that be a fair statement of summarizing kind of the where the path you're on?

I, I would say the short answer to that is yes. The longer answer, to quote you, I won't bore you with the details, is, is there was a, a sentinel moment, a real pivotal moment in my career where after I'd stepped away and made the promise to myself that if I were to go back into this thing called corporate America, it had to be on a very set of different terms. I wanted to be the leader I never had. I wanted to I wanted to have a sense of autonomy that I had not seen. And I had to be careful what you wish for moment. I landed a role leading about 15,000 people in 11 locations. We managed the telephonic enrollment for the Affordable Care Act and 1-800-MEDICARE. So it was really important, purpose-driven work, keep making— helping people get much-needed healthcare. But when I assumed the role, I was warned there was a fair amount of dysfunction. There was a lot— there were, you know, several silos inside of the organization, and we just weren't playing as a team. We were playing as individual functional areas. But not as a team. So the night before I was going to meet with these top 40 or 50 leaders, probably about 60 days into my role after joining the company, I knew I had to bring a different approach. If I would have— if the old Kyle would have stepped on stage and talked about all the things that I was here to do and how I was going to lead this team to a better outcome and lead this team in a way that they had never been led, it would have fallen on deaf ears, and it would have been dead on arrival because the average tenure of my group of direct reports, 6 or 7 people at the time, was 12 years in their role. Wow. So they had forgotten more about this thing that I was taking over than I even knew at the time. So it occurred to me that if I wanted the same results, and that means level of impact is not where I needed to be, I'm not fulfilled. I, I just, I was just going through the motions, then just do the same thing. But if I wanted to really have an impact and lead a group of people in a way that I'd never led, I needed to find a common ground on which we could level set to say, here's what I'm here to do for you, not to manage you, but I'm here to help you achieve excellence and get barriers out of your way and make you see and find impact that you may have forgotten that you were also chasing at one point. But I can't do that without you. We need each other. And it was that paradigm shift that evening in Lawrence, Kansas, when I created the principles and forever view how I view what I do for a living now. But you're absolutely right, Doug, and you couldn't have said it any, any better. It's the ego and the vulnerability that is so often void that gets in the way of people finding real impact and fulfillment.

And, and I think that people get sucked into the drudgery of working in a bureaucracy and lose sight of the fact that when you're working with people as a leader, and that doesn't mean leadership at the top, cuz you can be at the bottom and still be a leader. Is that helping other people and creating safety and providing direction and focus and helping people be their very best has a quality that attracts people to you to become the leader that everybody wants to follow. So true. And that, that changes the organization.

So true. And I will, I'll quantify what you just said, man. The first 20-ish years of my career, To this day, I probably have 3, 4, maybe 5 people that I stay in touch with, and we look into each other's progress on our lives, our families, our careers, those things on a pretty regular basis. Maybe 5 people. 20 years, 5 people. The last 10 years, that number is probably double or even triple, and I still have regular one-on-ones with people that I haven't worked with in years. Wow. And I think there's, I think there's commentary in there, right? It's, it's not just a job. I'm not here to just fill a role. I'm here to help you on your journey in life. And that's how I view it because I also view you're doing the same for me. And that is a— when you can reach that point with a team, there, there is nothing you can't overcome.

That's right.

You, you, it's just a beautiful thing to see. And I was lucky enough to see it towards the end of my career, which has compelled me to take the path that I'm on now.

Wow. So what do you think it's unique about you, Kyle, that allows you to have this success?

I admittedly, I have a hard time talking myself up and being really transparent about the things that I feel I'm good at. So I struggle with that. But to answer the question, I think I possess a sense of, of empathy and a relatability that is lost in most leaders. I come from very humble beginnings, man. I grew up in the strawberry capital of the world. I grew up surrounded by cows and farms, very mid, middle class at best. But I had two very hardworking parents who taught me the value of a dollar and the importance of work ethic. What, what I think happens far too often, especially in big corporate America, is the higher we ascend inside the organization, the more disconnected we, we become from that person that entered the workforce so many years earlier. We become disconnected from the common issues, struggles, challenges, the things that the everyday person faces. So that relatability as their leader is lost. We lose a bit of humanity. The high— in, in most cases, and I certainly am, I was that person, the higher I climbed, the less kind of human I became and the more robotic I became. But I made the choice for that not to be the case. And, and I think that is, was a big moment for me and allows me to still stay connected to the people that I lead, the struggles that they face. I'm not naive. Rarely do people spring out of bed in the morning and say, I get to go to work today. But you can create an environment where people feel like they have, they add a lot of value in the role that they're in and they are needed in the role that they're in. And others are counting on them to do the things that they are supposed to do in the role that they're in. And when you find that and they see that you're in it for them, I truly believe, and I, I'll say it this way, Doug, I believe relatability plus authenticity equals trust.

Yep.

And when my team sees, my teams or those that I work with see that I'm not speaking with 14-letter words, I don't have the shiniest shoes and the most starched shirt on anymore. I used to, and I can rel— when someone says, I'm gonna be a few minutes late because I gotta pick up my kid from school. Okay, I get it. Or I'm gonna be a few minutes late cuz I got a sick kid that I gotta attend to. And matter of fact, I may not even make it in. Okay, I got it. Because this is a long-term race that we're on. There's no finish line. Right. So empathizing with others' kind of real-life human scenarios is, I think, probably my greatest strength when it comes to connecting as a leader.

How did you learn those skills?

Lived them. And I lived them. I was maniacally focused on results the first two decades at all costs, burning people out. As a matter of fact, I, I, I, vividly recall realizing one day that looking around those that I had surrounded myself with and thinking that they all had a tremendous amount of respect for me, but learning they only feared me, was a hell of an eye-opener. So I'd recognized at that point I'd lost some relatability, and I was getting— I was on this leadership pedestal that I had put myself on and disconnected from those that I led, that I realized I could, I could not get the most out of them, and they were not getting the most out of me as their leader. From me being so disconnected and standing above them. So I had to put myself on a level playing field, squash what I refer to as the leadership gap, and let's partner on your development and whatever that means for you. If that, that means you're on this team for a finite period of time because you have a side hustle you want to embrace, or you're just saving up cash to go do something else, I want to help you with that. And let's be open and honest about that. I have some— I have a need here. You're in that, you're in that role, so let's get that need taken care of. You have a need So I wanna help you get that taken care of. I think it's a very fair two-way street of looking at it. So living that over and over again, and I think my roots, man, as I mentioned, coming from a very middle class at best, very hardworking, two commission-driven parents that if they didn't sell, we didn't eat, taught me the value of people and working hard with and around people.

So how do you get, you get paid big bucks to go out and teach people this stuff. How do you go about teaching it to people who are, you're, you're coming in, a company's bringing you in and you're introducing these ideas and you've got a kind of a blank slate and maybe even a little resistance. What's the process you use to help transform people into the way that you're talking about?

Yeah, you're spot on. So without fail, this ratio of acceptance has been the theme that I've seen usually when I go into a room. So I, I work with, so I'll give a speech depending if it's a conference or a company or whatever. That's probably half of what I do with my business now. The other half is leadership team training. So I'll go in and partner with the executives of a team, the entire team at the same time. And then of course I do one-on-one stuff as well. But the, the real power in transformation has— it comes in this group setting. And without fail, this ratio is what I always see. About half the room is really optimistic and excited about the message. And the message is, is not a single person in this room is more important than the value of the collection of this room. No one person in this room is more valuable than all of us combined. As a matter of fact, The more energy and care I can invest in those around me, I too will benefit from that investment. It's the best investment we can make. 50% optimistic, 25% on the fence, and the last, there's a 25%-ish amount of folks that are, this guy's full of shit. Yep. No way. He's not gonna work.

I have the same thing in my work.

Do you? Are your ratios similar?

Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. How I'm teaching people how to de-escalate and how to listen and how to create leadership empathy with the skills that I teach, I get pretty much the same result. 50%, oh man, this is the best thing since sliced bread. 25%, ah, I don't know. And 25%, yeah.

And it's— and I view it this way, Doug, it's I don't need 100% buy-in. No, I'll probably never get 100% buy-in. You, you made a comment earlier that I think is real applicable to where we are now in the conversation, is you can create momentum and people want be a part of your team. They wanna leave the area that they're in or leave the company that they're in because of what you're doing with your team and how you're leading and, and, and empowering people to own their own plight instead of being a number. So I go in recognizing that I'm never gonna win 100% and that's okay. And then, well, I was gonna say, go ahead.

Here's the thing that I learned in the Prison Project, my Prison of Peace Project.

Yeah.

We can train 25 people incarcerated people on a yard of 1,000. That's all we need to do is train 25 and the yard is completely different in a year because the momentum that that 25 can create.

Is that right?

Once they learn the skills that we teach, for example, or you could, the same thing with you. Once you learn these life-transforming skills, this new way of looking at the world.

Yep.

It spreads like wildfire and you don't have to reach everybody. All you have to do is reach the committed few. And get them going and then step back and watch them change the organization or change anything.

So true. And I would venture to guess, and I'd love to hear your reaction to this. So when I enter an arrangement, especially working with an entire leadership team, I have this approach that's, and I'm gonna, I'll simplify it and I'm a little more eloquent at the time of delivery, but it's like this. I have a series of principles that I feel personally connected to these principles and they have changed how I think both in and out of work. I can also give you an incredibly long list of people who would agree because they've either worked with me, been a client of mine, or have learned it through the book on their own. For, I can't make you believe this. I can't force you to come along with us on this journey. So my approach, although, you know, it's a little crass the way I'm framing it now, is the information's free. Right? Your choice to, to lead this way is something I can't make for you. If you want to find more fulfillment and if you want to have a similar outcome, and it's not easy, like we said, simple's not easy. Here is how I would help you get there, but I can't do the work for you. I can't make you wake up to, uh, uh, tomorrow morning, go to the office and be prepared to challenge those around you to find optimal solutions instead of just point out things that are broken and command people to go fix them.

It's very different.

I can't. So for me, it's about exposing an opportunity to find a different path, to find, uh, greater fulfillment, to find, by the way, much better results almost unequivocally across the board depending on the environment. Have we seen improved results with this leadership paradigm? But at the end of the day, it's on you, man. You have to make the choice that you want to be the same or you want to lead differently. And candidly, some environments are not right for that type of transformation. And you might be inside of an organization that's, yeah, Kyle, I agree with everything you're saying, but this, the toxicity, the, and the dysfunctional DNA in our organization's too strong to overcome.

Right.

My response is that might be true. You might wanna look somewhere else.

Right. That's right. Yeah. I don't take an engagement in a company unless I've talked to the top, very top leadership and make sure they have buy-in.

I love hearing that, man, because I, I've had people tell me I'm nuts for turning down work where I feel as if, oh, the leaders of the organization are trying to drive a transformation as a check-the-box initiative and not a way of life. I walk away from those and I love hearing you say the same.

Oh no, it's really important. I'll get contacted by HR, for example, or somebody like that. And they say, we got all these, all this stuff going on and we want you to come in and teach us how to listen, how to develop empathy, how to stop fights and arguments. I said, great. Have you talked to your upper leadership? Are they bought in? We've given a direction to find somebody. I said, have you really talked to them? No. Unless I have a call with your senior team, I'm not taking the engagement. They've gotta be, they gotta buy in and they've gotta be forced on 'em. And I got to teach first. They got to learn this first before anybody else.

That's how we do it. That's how we do it as well. We start, we start as high as we can get in. That's right. And then we help cascade the message from there.

I've had gigs where I've had senior leadership in and they said, no, we don't want this for our organization.

Okay. And I said, all right, what are you going to do?

What are you going to do? You can't change people that don't want to change.

That's right. That's right. And it's unfortunate because I can just tell you, man, the level of satisfaction I find, the connections I've made, That's right. It are really important and it's been a different paradigm for me.

We share the same experience. It's frustrating to see people turn away this priceless gift that completely changed their lives and the lives of everyone around them because they don't have a growth mindset. Yeah. They've got a fixed mindset and they don't want to go through the pain and the effort of growth. And it, well said. You gotta just shake your head.

Well said.

I'm curious.

Well said.

You're obviously a very good listener. How did you learn how to listen?

I don't know if ever, if I've ever been accused of being a good listener. I don't know. I learned a lesson many years ago and I tell the story of my book where I got really defensive from, I was mid-level manager at the time, maybe approaching senior level. And this, the chief medical officer of the healthcare company that I was with pulled me aside one day and said, hey, you seem pretty defensive in our staff meeting today when you were going over your division's numbers. And I was like, hell yeah, of course I was defensive because you were attacking the results that I and my team were delivering. Terrible response, by the way. When you're, when you are emotional and way more about this than I do, when you're emotional about the results, you can't objectively see the path to a better place. And it was that interaction. So I, I said, hell yeah, you know, of course I am. I said back to Dr. Hajin and, and he leaned across his desk and he had a one-word response for me. He said, don't. I said, what do you mean don't? I care so much about this. I, I, I, you, you're missing my point. I'm so, I got very paternal. I own this. This is my problem. And he, and he said something similar. The more you can remove the emotion and just listen to what's happening around you, listen to the questions that you're hearing, listen to the objectives, the objections that you're hearing from your team, you're so much closer to solving these problems than you are by just being headstrong and paternal about what's going on. And from that moment on, I, I realized, and I'm not perfect at it, clearly, that's communication. I say ambiguity is the enemy of execution, and ambiguity is almost always found in poor or lack of communication, effective communication. So I found myself chasing my tail over and over again trying to solve problems that I really didn't even understand because I was so quick to jump into solution mode that I never really heard what was happening. So it was, it was probably out of, of, of years of go doing the wrong thing before I discovered how important it was to just listen.

Right.

No, no shine, no silver bullet, but that was my experience.

Well, there you go. And you just mentioned something that is a very common problem, and that is that people jump into problem solving way, way too early.

This guy.

And the reason, the re— there's a reason for it. And that is that when you're confronted with a problem or a conflict or an issue, Inside, you have an unrecognized anxiety. It's an unconscious anxiety about how this is gonna reflect on you and your reputation, how it's gonna reflect on the organization, your own identity, your own ego, whatever it might be. Or maybe you're just uncomfortable with the fact that there's an issue out there. And what our brains try to do is to relieve that anxiety by problem solving, telling other people what to do, giving advice, commanding people to do stuff because that soothes our own inner anxiety without us even knowing about it. And we think that because we've solved the problem, now we'll feel better about ourselves. And this all the time, everywhere.

Let, let me toss something back at you. And, and clearly for your audience, this was not rehearsed, but I'm cur— the way you frame that, I can't help but think there is a positive corollary to that as it relates to helping your brother. Or your sister.

That's right.

Your neighbor. Right? Because I'm convinced, and I think science has proven, I'm no expert on this field, but we are hardwired to wanna help one another.

That's right.

So just like this, when this, right? So how do you, I would love your reaction to this.

So when there's a, so we're sitting around, I'm gonna show you how right now. Hit me. So let's just assume that you're, something's going on. So what, what I'm gonna say, this is the, this is how it works. So, Ka, man, you are really pissed off. You're really frustrated, you're angry, you feel completely disrespected. Nobody's listening to you. You feel completely ignored. You feel completely unappreciated and unsupported. You're a little worried and concerned, and you're deeply offended about what's going on here. And you feel a little bit of shame and humiliation. And at the bottom, you're sad and miserable and depressed and stressed out. And when you really sit back and think about what you're feeling, you feel completely abandoned and rejected and betrayed by everybody around you, and you feel completely useless and unloved and unlovable. Feel how that sits?

I'm not sure if I've gone that far down the path.

You wouldn't normally. You wouldn't normally, but this is— these are the layers that you go through.

That's the— got it, got it.

And then, and then You would say, yeah. And I said, all right, let's talk about how to solve the problem. So what I've done is I, by validating your emotional experience, I've de-escalated you. It takes about 30 to 90 seconds.

Okay.

Once your brain is quiet, let's talk about how to solve the problem. So I don't— the issue, whatever the issue is.

Yeah.

But I can't begin to have a conversation with you about whatever the issue is until your brain is completely calm.

Drop that armor.

And the only way I can do that is to validate your emotional experience in the moment.

Hmm. How do you do that?

Just what I did. You listen to and reflect the emotional experience that a person is having before you do anything else. It's called affect labeling.

But what does that sound like though? So if I've just puked all this on you, what is your validation here? What does it sound like back to me?

I'm gonna, so give me an example of something that somebody might say, some puking, and I'll show you how you do it. Just make something up.

So you, you've called me into an office to talk about how my performance is sliding, and I've got a ton of excuses why this perform— my performance is sliding. You're not hearing me. It's outta my control.

Kyle.

Kyle. Yeah.

Kyle, you're really frustrated, man. You're frustrated and you're—

well, yeah, I'm frustrated.

You're totally frustrated. You're pissed off. You don't feel like you're being heard. You feel unappreciated, unsupported, and you feel like you're being blamed unfairly. So you really feel like you're being treated unfairly.

Exactly.

And it's really offensive to you because you're trying to do your job and you don't feel like you're getting any support. You're not. And, and whatever, wherever you turn, somebody is either sabotaging you or betraying you, or yep, at the very minimum, not doing their job.

Yep.

And you're not helping and you don't feel like you're getting any help or support. That's right. And you feel, and it's just stressing you out and freaking you out.

Yep.

Okay. Anything else?

No, I think as long as we're aligned that you're not helping the way I need your help. Okay.

So you're feeling like you're not getting the support that you need, and you don't feel like wherever you turn, you're all alone and it's all on you. And that's really frustrating to you because you get— you feel like you're getting blamed for responsibilities that are not yours.

Doug, it's the nuance there. You play back what you hear. You didn't agree with anything I said.

No, of course not.

Right. Okay. Okay. I'm just tracking the— I'm tracking that.

All I'm doing is labeling your emotional experience in the moment.

I'm being heard. You're being heard.

Exactly.

Okay.

And once you feel heard, and you— it's a number of times you said exactly, and you nodded your head. That is the relaxation response that occurs in your brain when you do this. Finally, you will settle down, and I'll say, all right, let's talk about how to solve the problem.

Yeah, let's get after the problem. Yeah.

But I can't do that until you're calmed down.

Yeah. But it, I, I just feel like there's something, and again, this is your area, so I'd love to, to hear your reaction to this. There's something innate within us to, to your point, we wanna jump right to problem solving without hearing what's really going on.

That's right.

But we also, that, that, that there's a, the opposite side of that coin is a beautiful thing in that when you're struggling, we're wired to wanna help you there as well. But Agreed. Right. We're wired to do so.

We are, but we do it the wrong way.

I, I, yeah. I, I, I would contend we don't do it enough in the workplace.

I agree with that. But what we—

We lose that connection.

What we don't do in the workplace is validate people's emotional experience.

Yeah. Yeah.

People are, people are told, park your emotions at the door, come in and be an automaton.

Yes.

That is so wrong because we are emotional beings. There's no such thing as rationality.

That's right.

Every decision we make, every behavior we engage in. Love it. Is based on emotion.

Love it.

And so as leaders, if we can learn that our people are emotional, so let's address their emotional experience, validate their emotional experience, not have to agree with the cause of it, just validate their emotional experience. Then, you know, we can have the conversation about how to change things. But until you do that, you can't go anywhere.

Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful. I, I just, I, it's something that I think about a lot is how we are hardwired to wanna help one another. Lift each other up, wrap our arms, shoulder, which just, it just doesn't happen the way that it, as much as it should happen. And then when it does happen, it's not usually done correctly to your point.

That's correct. And, and you're right, we are hardwired as a species evol— from an evolutionary perspective. For millions of years we're in small clans. The only way humans survived was by through collaboration. Yeah. It was only after the advent of language 230,000 years ago when we started to develop the ability to speak. We didn't have that ability up until 200,000. Years ago. That led to more cooperation, agricultural development upon which culture and civilization was based, that things got complex.

Mm-hmm.

And then those innate abilities were, were not lost, but not emphasized.

What a shame.

This has been a great conversation. One more question. I'll let you go. Kyle, what's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

I've seen Pearl Jam 105 times live.

I guess you're a Pearl Jam fan.

I am, I am. And it's probably not the deep philosophical, uh, answer that some might give, but you don't usually see a nerd like me who is so passionate about live rock music, especially with that band. And I've seen them in 3 countries. It's been— it's a thing. It's a thing for me. So it is a, a point of pleasure that— as a matter of fact, I'm heading to Boston next weekend to see Pearl Jam at Fenway Park. Yeah.

So thanks so much for taking time outta your busy day. I really appreciated this conversation.

It's my pleasure, Doug. Thank you for having me. You're doing really important work and I'm happy to be a part of it. And thanks for the platform to share my message.

Absolutely, Kyle. Take care. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.