305 - How Emotional Intelligence Transforms Customer Service in the Restaurant Industry with Smokey Mo's BBQ's Craig Haley

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Craig Haley, welcome to Leading with Leaders. So you are the president of a company called Smokey Mo's Barbecue. In Texas, which can be called— it can be found, the website is smoky-moes-barbecue.com. Welcome to the show and tell it. And I know you're, you hail from outside the Austin area. Tell us a little bit about your backstory. How the heck did you get involved in barbecue?

Yeah, great question. I, I started out, I grew up in Houston, Texas, right down not too far from here, about 3 hours from Austin. But I went to Texas A&M. University, uh, Giga Mags, um, for college. And I went to, for IT, I wanted to be in computer science. So I went for computer science. I, like many of us back in that generation, we worked our way through college and I started working in restaurants. And there was a huge change in computer science back then. The internet kind of hit the scene. This was the early '90s. And it changed everything, honestly. And I found that I had more of a passion for the teamwork, the camaraderie, the people of restaurants than I had for programming. I still love computer science, but I didn't love it as much as I liked working in restaurants. So as I progressed out of college, I just kept— I had worked my way into a manager role in the restaurants that I was at. And I ended up moving to Austin to work for another restaurant company here in Austin that had barbecue, and I loved it.

Wow. So what is it about the restaurant business, the hospitality industry that, that attracts you to it?

Yeah, I think there's a number of things. I think first off there, there is, when you leave a restaurant every day after working, there's a feeling like you've accomplished something, like your team has done something during that day that was meaningful. I think there's a couple things about restaurants that I think people don't realize and they don't think of it as importantly as it really is. So let me explain that. One is we feed people and everybody has to eat. This is a necessity, right? Every day, every person for the most part eats multiple times generally. And what— so it's a necessity, but you can take that necessity and you can make it a very positive experience for people. When you eat something. That is incredibly satisfying, that tastes great. It changes your mood for the day. It gives you a pep in your step. It changes your attitude, uh, positively changes your attitude in a way. It's why all of our important events generally have meals. Your graduations, your weddings, your even funerals, uh, holidays, all those include a meal because eating is such an important thing for us and eating great food. Makes those important events even better. And so that's one thing. And then the second thing is we provide customer service. We provide— we give people an experience that can impact them as well. So I don't know about you, but when I go into a restaurant or into, let's say, anywhere where you get customer service and somebody treats you well, it matters. It affects you positively as well. So I think what we can do in a restaurant is we can really impact our community in a way that's meaningful. And we do it through teamwork. We do it through a group of people with a shared vision, hustling and working hard and producing, you know, something because you're producing food every day and you try to create an experience for a guest that matters. And there's something about that when you're in an organization or when you're with a team. And you're doing that every day, that really affects you in that role in a positive way too. So I think a lot of people, and I'll end with this, a lot of people start off in the restaurant industry. It's like their first job. It was one of my first jobs. I was a sacker at a grocery store first, and then I worked in restaurants. But so you come in this role and you learn a lot about work ethic. You learn a lot about teamwork. You learn a lot about how to get along with people in your first jobs. And so as a leader in those jobs, being a restaurant manager, for example, you can— your job matters a lot because you're working with people in their first job and you can impact them in a way that you've done something meaningful in your life. So I think that's really what spoke to me in the restaurant role.

How did you end up as president of Smokey Mo's Barbecue?

Yeah, so I started off just like everybody else in the restaurant industry. I was, my first job was delivery driver, so I just picked up pizzas and drove them. And then in college I was delivering some food and then I worked in a kitchen and then I was a, a server for a little while, bartender, all the roles, right? So when I went, when I became a manager, I, I came to a restaurant chain here in Austin and I was just a restaurant manager. And I looked at the, I looked as I started, I saw that the place I could make the biggest impact was really in the kitchen in this job because it was a harder job. It was 6 days a week, but we weren't using data. We were cooking too many, too much food sometimes, and we weren't cooking enough at other times. And I looked at it and said, man, if I can get in there and really chart this out and use the data, that the food will be fresher and better and will— our costs will be down. And so I did that, and then I moved into a GM role, and then we built another concept restaurant. So they brought me into the corporate office of this, and we built a burger chain. And then I became the COO of the company. And through that, we sold the company. And after that, the Smokey Mo's was looking for somebody to lead this organization. It was a founder-led organization for 20 years of it. And then the founder sold. And so the new leadership wanted to bring somebody in that they felt like could take this restaurant to a different level, really something that we could replicate and we could build in more communities in Texas and outside of Texas and even do some franchising.

So, so tell us a little bit about the, what Smokey Mo's is as a barbecue place. What's, and what sets it apart from other barbecue?

What I love about Smokey Mo's is we're a smaller box. So a lot of the successful barbecue restaurants there's two ways that, that barbecue restaurants are generally successful. You've got your big chains that are large box formats. So 5,000 to 10,000 square foot places that you go into. There's Famous Dave's, Rudy's Barbecue. Those are successful large chains. And then you've got all of the craft barbecue places. So for example, you, let's say you love Barbecue Doug and you're like, I'm going to build a barbecue restaurant and you have a passion for it. You work inside of your barbecue restaurant every day. It's your recipes and you're the founder of it. And so one-off barbecue places are really successful as well. What's not— what you haven't seen is a smaller format. So what we are is we're a neighborhood barbecue. So we're 2,500 square foot.

Small.

We can go into smaller neighborhoods. We can provide you with the same quality of food. We smoke all of our meats in-house. We're not doing what some of the other small box chains do, which is commissary cook or use fake smoke. We're cooking in large smokers every day and fresh barbecue, great barbecue. So we can come into communities and smaller communities and really into neighborhoods and we can ingrain ourselves into the communities, the, the high school. The high schools, the churches, the, the medical centers. We can really work with them inside that community. And so we can get into more communities than some of these larger chains as well. And so we see this as really a distinguishing factor for Smokey Mo's.

So how many stores do you have now?

We have 20 stores, exactly 20 stores. We do have a couple on the way. We're building stores currently. And then we have a couple obviously that we're in leases with, lease negotiations with for.

And it also looks like you're looking into franchising the operation too, which is a whole different ballgame.

Yeah, we have some franchise stores already. So when I started, we had 4 different franchisees that are all still with us. They're building restaurants currently. What we're really trying to do, or what we've been trying to do the last couple of years is really perfect the format, the prototype store, build out exactly what we're trying to do before we're signing new franchisees up. I think what's important for us is we want to be a great restaurant first. We're not— there's been companies out there, not only in food but other, other types that are really franchise sales companies. So that's what they're good at. That's how they make their money. We're a restaurant company that wants to partner with the right operators to, to run for all of us, to run great restaurants. We think that's also really a distinguishing factor, right? We don't want to be— we don't want to just go find anybody that wants to join. We want to find the right people and the right operators so that we can have great restaurants.

I'm— so you're, you've got a relatively small— first of all, you're thinking, you're talking about the big box. I know here in Central California we have a couple of barbecue places and they're all those big gigantic places, right? You get lost going inside. So small community-oriented stores. How many employees would a typical store have?

20, 20 to anywhere from 15 to 30.

And so you've got, you obviously have a restaurant manager. Who then, who's got, who has to run the place? What are the kind of challenges that your restaurant managers face that they've got to deal with?

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge is the, I think the most important thing is also the biggest challenge, which is your team, the people that you hire, your, how you treat them, how well you train them and coach them and lead them. I think that's also the biggest challenge we've had. A number of challenges in the restaurant industry recently with COVID was incredible, right?

Pretty hard.

Changed everything for a while. And we're still coming out of that tail of COVID And so we lost a lot of people that had, that were longtime restaurant employees. They went on to do different things or they didn't need to work for a while. And that caused some labor shortages. And then also we didn't like the service industry really struggled through COVID. A lot of it, you people put on masks, a lot of the sales and a lot of the business went to off-premises. So what that, what ended up happening is our, the people that were coming into the business weren't trained well on how to give face-to-face service. And so we're having to go back in and really teach that. And I think that's a, that is a, a big competitive advantage for companies that do that because all of us are experiencing probably a lower level of customer service than we've ever experienced in our lifetimes everywhere we go. So when you go somewhere that's just doing pretty good, it's actually distinguishing. And if you go somewhere that's great at it, I think that's— it wows you and it changes your perspective on it.

And so it's been your experience that the— basically shut us down for 24 months, but during that 24-month period, the young people who would normally be your employee base never developed people skills. And when they come in now, they come in to do, to apply for a job to be a server or a bartender or work in the kitchen or whatever. It's, we gotta train them in skills that we would take for granted 10 years ago that don't exist today.

I think that's exactly right. That's what we're finding. And I think it's just, you just have to put a little bit more emphasis and effort in it. I think they get it once you can teach them, like they understand how that impacts people as well. And they want to have, they want to do the right thing and they want to have meaningful jobs, I think. But it is a little, they're starting from a lower level.

Right.

Really wearing the masks for quite a while. They were able, the people that joined during COVID were able to wear a mask and give customer service for a year and a half to 2 years. And you think about that, they didn't have to smile.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Um, they didn't really have to talk in, in the same way. It just made everything a little bit more awkward. And then, like I said, we put all this emphasis on the, the stuff that was leaving that we didn't put the emphasis on the training and the coaching and the giving of service at the front for a while either.

But, and as soon as you started to do that, you noticed some really dramatic changes.

Yeah, I think we're still trying to work on that, honestly, but we, I think we've seen some dramatic changes in our stores.

So Craig, what is it about you as an individual and a human being that's unique that you bring to the table that's made this all so successful?

Oh man, I think what— I have a passion, obviously, for really working with inside of that team and sharing a vision. I think that's what I really try to do. My role in my job is different than it was when I was a general manager. Like when I was a general manager, if I wanted something to happen, I could make it happen really easily because I was there all the time. Now I'm overseeing 20 stores and I'm not able to just make stuff happen in that way. So it, it's more vision casting and showing them how good we can be and hopefully getting incrementally better. I'm not the most patient person. I'm working on that. I think the pro— I think there's a level of impatience that you actually need to have as a leader. But I think it's what I would say is really that, that distinguishes me is that passion for excellence, that passion for really teaching and coaching our team that they're doing jobs that really matter and are meaningful. And hustling for a guest doesn't really affect you in a negative way, but it affects them in an incredibly positive way. And ultimately, when you leave your job, if you've hustled all day, you're going to be affected positively. So that's, I think, giving that, teaching that understanding and really talking about it over and over again. This is the thing that leaders do. They repeat themselves. Because by repeating yourself, you're able to get people to— you're able to engage that culture and get— actually get the culture to change. And so I would say that's a superpower of mine of just repeating myself over and over again. Yeah.

Do you get to interact with the store managers directly much?

Yeah, I do. I— the GMs really is who I interact with. I have a biweekly meeting with them. And then when I'm in the store, I think my job when I go into stores is really to interact with as many people as possible and just talk to them and hopefully help them understand what we're trying to do. But specifically the leaders in the store, the, the managers. We're small enough now where I know all the managers' names. I know all their faces. I, they all know me. I think at some point that won't happen anymore, but I love the level where we're at because of that. I think that human interaction, the ability to have conversations one-on-one with people is something that I thrive in.

That gets me to the best question I ask in these conversations is, you've obviously learned how to listen. How important is listening in your role as president of Smokey Mo's?

Oh man, I think it's when I don't listen, is when we make mistakes. I think that's part of it. I think, and then I think there's two things that listening does. One is you, you make, if you don't listen, you're gonna make a lot more mistakes. You're not going to understand what the impact of the decisions you make are gonna be. So I think that's a big part of listening is you go in and you're talking to people about your vision, where you're going, how you think we're gonna get there. And then you have to listen to them tell you, okay, these are the ramifications, these are the effects of that you can't see from your position. And so then you can tweak what you're planning on doing and hopefully you don't make some of those mistakes. And I think the other part of listening that you really see is it make, is it helps you get to the best version of yourself or your best version of your organization. So by listening, okay, man, this is somewhere where we, I know we can be better at because this is an issue that they're having in the store. This is what the customers are experiencing. I think listening and watching are incredibly important parts of what leaders do. I really try to get my, the store managers to watch more. And what I mean by that is what is the experience that from the guest's point of view And I think listening is the same way. So if you're not listening to people, you're not understanding the point of view that they have. And so you, there's a lot more blind spots that you end up.

It strikes me that in the restaurant business, listening is the primary skill. Think of a server coming up to a table. What does that server have to be able to do?

They have to listen.

They have to listen, right?

Have to.

From the very first moment, "Hi, my name's Doug. I'm your server tonight. How can I help you?" Right there. What does that do? That opens people up and they start talking. And so listening in your business, it's critical.

It's incredibly critical. It's critical in not just hearing what they have to say, but understanding what they're feeling and what they would need.

I think that's more important than anything else.

Yeah, we talk about this with— I took a Ritz-Carlton training class one time, and they really talk about how you get your radar on and antenna up. And what you're trying to do is anticipate what that guest needs. Because if you walk into the restaurant, Doug, the first time you walk into Smokey Mo's, the very first time you walk in there, you're going to have a different need than somebody who's been there 20 times. And what we want our team to do is be able to pick that up. That's okay. He's— this is first time. Let me explain about the pork belly. Let me make sure he understands this. And so you're filling in the gaps that the customer might have or the guest might have. And you see the same thing with what you see a guest walking through your restaurant and they look like, start looking around and you're like, okay, they have a question. And so you can leave them hanging out there trying to figure it out for themselves, or you can engage with them. And you can give them a level of service that maybe they're looking for the restroom or maybe they're wondering where the barbecue sauce is. And you can— it— you're filling in that gap in a way that I think affects them positively. And there's a hundred things like that, right? Carrying out the bags for the guests or grabbing the high chair for somebody who's trying to hold a baby in their food, right? All those things.

Are—

it's a watching, and it's really listening and feeling what that guest needs.

I teach people how to listen to emotions rather than to words.

Love that.

And when people— when you learn— so words are important, but emotions are even more important. And what's really cool is we're hardwired for reading other people's emotions. All we got to do is pay attention. And when all the things that you're talking about happen, when you can read somebody's emotions, to your point, they're walking in, they're confused, if they're lost, or maybe they're at the table and somebody's upset. Or maybe they're really happy and you key into those emotions. And actually I teach people how to validate those emotions. Oh, you look really happy today. Welcome to Smokey Joe's. You look really happy today. Just saying that, people feel, they feel heard and visible and it completely changes their experience with you. And that's, you see that. And I'm, I, it's interesting that, you know, that there, there aren't many people I have on the show that get it like the way that you do. And it's really cool to see because it's a— it really is the foundational skill of life.

Yeah, I love that. I, I think you're right on. We have some guests that walk up that don't want to talk, right? That they want to place their order and they want you to let them go. And if you try to engage with them, today? How's your day been? What is it that frustrates them? And you should be able to read that. And that's why customer service, that's why the way you treat— we teach this to managers too, but it's different for every person. The way you manage Bill is not the way you should manage John, because Bill might— he reacts differently to different ways of coaching and teaching and discipline, all those things. Just like if you have kids, if you want to treat them all the same, but you also want the best outcomes. And I think that's what you're— it comes down to what are you trying to— when you're engaging with the guest, you want the best outcome of it. Well, you don't want to follow the process. You want the best outcome, right? And the process gets you to a point where it works for most people, but then you have to engage your brain. You have to listen, you have to watch, and you have to figure out, okay, for this person though, I'm gonna— I'm gonna go very quick. For this person, I'm going to engage with them and talk to them about their kids. And the same thing with your team when you're coaching them and when you're leading people, is the best leaders get the most out of different people in different ways. And I think that's a big part of what we really try to coach GMs.

Amazing. Good for you. One more question, I'll let you go, Craig. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know about? Unless you revealed it to us?

Oh man, that's a great question. One thing about myself, I think— oh, that's the first thing that came to mind. I don't know if this makes sense or not because it— I don't know if people would realize it or not, but I love Formula 1 racing.

Really?

Yeah. And it's a little bit unusual for Texas and even coming from the South where NASCAR used to be king. But I've loved it since the late '80s, early '90s. I remember watching Ayrton Senna and getting up super early in the morning when I was a college student to watch Formula One. I love it today. It's been—

wow—

part of my life. We actually have it in Austin now, which is really cool. We've had it for 10 years. But I think that's something probably people wouldn't pick up. I'm, I'm a hunting, fishing guy. And Formula One's a little bit off of that. But, and being from Texas, that's not highly, it's not highly appreciated.

A little unusual.

But it's also not mainstream.

Good for you. Craig, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for taking time outta your busy day to share your thoughts with us.

Great. Thanks, Doug. I appreciate you as well. And this was fun.

Good. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me. Me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.