313 - Speak Up, Stand Out: Harnessing Communication for Influence and Impact with Brunner Communications' Liz Brunner

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Liz Bruner, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO and founder of a company called Bruner Communications, which we'll learn more about, and you have an amazing background. In—

like me, I mean, we do have something in common.

Classically trained vocalist and performer, and then broadcast journalism in Boston, and now you have your communications company. You've done a lot in your life, so why don't we just start at the beginning and get the backstory?

Thank you first of all for having me, Doug. It's great to be here with you and your audience. And I like to say that I'm in my fourth career chapter, so it's Liz 4.0. There you go. Because I started out as a classically trained or teaching high school choral music. And then after a couple of years, I just felt organically there was something more I was supposed to do. I really didn't know what it was, but I left teaching and worked in retail for a little while to pay the bills. And I had also had the opportunity to be Miss Illinois in the Miss America Scholarship Pageant, which helped pay for my education. I paid for every penny of my education. And while I was Miss Illinois, I had done one television commercial, and I thought, I wonder if I could do something in TV. I'll fast forward through the whole story, but I learned of informational interviews from a book that I was reading. And so I bravely and blindly called up 2 television stations in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, which is where I was living at the time. Fast forward, condense the story even more. After about 6 months of conversation, a position was literally created for me at the CBS affiliate. And I was at that station for 3 years. Then I went to the station in Tampa, and then I came to Boston.. And I was in at ABC in Boston for 20 years, all told 28 years in the industry. Wow. And then again, I had this organic feeling, Doug, something that I just know there's something more I'm supposed to be doing. Again, I didn't know what it was, but I took the opportunity to reach out to people in the community whom I respected here in Boston and simply ask the question, what does somebody like me do? When you think maybe there's yet another chapter in you? And some answers were quite entertaining. Some were helpful. Some were entertaining. Someone once said to me, "I see you read the news every night." Trust me, it's more than just reading the news.

I'm sure.

But then I had narrowed it down to 3 different lanes that I could see myself moving into. One would be some communications expert at a company, didn't know who. Another was to maybe get involved more with nonprofit organizations, maybe as an executive director. I've always been very involved in nonprofits. Or the third lane, I could start my own company, which I'd never ever wanted to do in a million years, was not on my radar. But I knew that I could teach presence and public speaking and presentation skills and storytelling and leadership and, oh yes, media training too. And one of my mentors said to me, Liz, you're well known, you're well respected, you have value. That is credibility. Why would you give that value to somebody else? Launch your business. If in 6 months or 9 months you don't like it, you don't have any clients, you can always go do something else. Doug Noll, a kaleidoscope went click in that moment in his office, and I made the decision, I'm going to launch a business. That was more than 11 years ago, and here I am as a keynote speaker, an executive communications coach, a podcast host, and an author. So that's what I'm doing these days.

Okay. I— yep, sounds pretty familiar.

I know you've had several career chapters as well.

I'm on about 4.0 myself, so I totally get it. So today, describe a little bit about the work of Bruner Communications today, who your clients are and what kind of services you provide and what you do.

Most of my clients are top-level executives in the C-suite. Doesn't mean I don't work with other clients, but predominantly that's where they're coming from in all industries because communication is communication in any industry. And so I'm working with executives either one-on-one or I'm brought in to do a workshop. And I could be working with them on anything from presence to leadership to public speaking to presentation skills. How do you create a great pitch when you have to get investors? So it could, it runs the gamut. From everything anywhere in there to even media training. I just did a media training workshop yesterday, yesterday with a financial investment company that I've been doing. I think this is maybe my 8th or 9th workshop with them over the last few years because they want to help their team be prepared to be interviewed by the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or Barron's or whoever the case may be. So it really, it depends on what their goals and their needs are and how can I help them move the dial to get from where they are to where they want to go, to sometimes who they want to be, and even helping some people figure out what is my next chapter? How can I connect all of my experiences? What are the dots? What are the themes? What are the patterns that I can bring together so that I can create that next chapter, so that I can go after that promotion? We know more than we think we know, and we sometimes sell ourselves short, whether it's limiting beliefs, whether it's fears. Those things hold us back. So working with people to uncover, discover all of those things falls into my services. And that's a big bucket.

I was going to say, that's a big bucket. It's a broad array of services. Are you, are these days, are you by yourself or do you have a support staff or company or you have other people doing what you're doing?

I have, yes, I have one other coach who's on my team. And she's also actually an award-winning radio broadcaster with whom I worked with in the Boston area. I was on TV, she was on radio. And then I have an administrative person. I have a chief of staff. I have a social media manager. And then I have videographers all around the country with whom I work depending on the city that I'm in. Because one of the things that I do with my coaching practice, I consider myself a concierge coach. And what I mean by that is I truly meet people where they are and where they need to go. And the videographer is the— excuse me, the camera. Let's try that. The video is the truth tool. It really is one of the ways that I can help people see how they might be seen and heard and perceived as opposed to what they think they're doing. And let's use the example of confidence. Some people think, I'm portraying confidence. Are you really? Let's take a look. And when I'm able to help people figure out if that's your intention to be perceived as confident, and maybe it's not being perceived as being confident, Where is the disconnect and why? So a lot goes into the—

I bet that's a real eye-opener for some of your clients.

Oh, it is.

They have one perception of themselves and here's the reality.

Exactly. But it's helping them see what other people see and hear and how they communicate and how they put their content together. In my opinion, Doug, everything is a story, a pitch, a presentation, a speech. It's all storytelling. And there's an art to telling a good story. Most people aren't trained in that. A lot of people are trained, let me tell you what I'm going to tell you. And then they tell you what they're going to tell you. And then they tell you what they just told you. I believe that's very old school today. If you think about everything being very quick and you have to get to the point and be concise and capture people's attention from the moment you begin and engage them, how do you do that today when we're bombarded with so much information?

Right.

So it's sometimes retraining people and minimizing habits that are not serving them well and implementing habits that will serve them well and move the dial.

Do you have any real big success stories that come to mind that rock you?

I just, if I can share one, I would love to.

Please do.

Without, it's confidential from the standpoint of who the client is.

You don't need to identify, but you can identify.

Let me just, yes. So this person came to me, was referred to me last May, what, 9 months ago, 10 months ago. And there was a very good opportunity that he was going to be put into the mix of succession to be the new CEO for this professional services firm. Didn't know, but we started working on it. And a couple of stories. One, when they said, we wrote his chief of staff, we've got the intro down of who he is. I'm like, just, let me just hear what you've got. And what a lot of people have a tendency to do, Doug, is I did this and then I did that and then I did this and then I did that. It's a resume laundry list. Very boring. How can you take all of that information and how can you weave the story around who this person is, their authenticity, and how can they convey their vision? So working on that, working on the presentation skills, working on the confidence, working on delivering all of this stuff. And last November, he was in fact named the CEO.

There you go.

And this is a major global firm, so I'm very excited. He's just one success story. And I've been fortunate, thank you, that I've had a, a number of them, but he's my most recent and I'm very very proud of it. And the partnership that we formed together was what made it work.

So you've been, you've been working for what, almost sounds like 28 plus 11, almost 40, 45 years?

Oh yeah, I've been around the block a few times.

We're getting there, right? We got the, we've got the scars to show.

Exactly.

What is it that gets you up in the morning now and keeps you going?

It's working with clients like this particular individual that I just shared with you, from the standpoint that I often see the progress in my clients before they see it. But when they see it, when they feel it, Doug, it's the best feeling in the world. And then the other piece of the equation, when I'm keynote speaking, I love the exchange of energy with an audience because it's transformational for people. And when you help people transform, when you give them a different perspective of maybe how to look at their life or you give them some little tool or technique that can help them have a little bit more courage to go after and live their best life. Those are moments that light me up.

Yeah, I get it. I, I, one of the things that I've done in my life is I co-founded the Prisoner Peace Project with my colleague and worked, I worked in maximum security prisons around the world for 10 years, 2010 to the pandemic. I just got a letter yesterday from a guy who I worked with 8, 9— I met him in 2013. He's serving a life sentence. He murdered 4 family members when he was 14 years old, incredibly abused. And I got a letter from him the other day, yesterday, and he said, I just graduated from Fresno State University summa cum laude in prison. And the commencement was in October, and the president and 40 professors and staff came from the university to give me my degree. And I've been accepted into a master's program at Cal State Dominguez Hills in the liberal arts study.

Amazing.

Isn't that incredible?

It is incredible.

And he said, I could not have done this without the stuff that you taught me.

And, and you bring up another point, cuz I was just working with a client before we had our chance to, to connect today. He's a doctor in Germany and he has just got so much going on and helping him sort of fine-tune how can we construct and figure out how to move through all of this. How do you communicate the needs that need to be shared and the changes that are happening? And he said to me at the end of it, he goes, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you helping me. And we're like, that's why you and I do what we do, right? We want to be of service in some way. And when we get that kind of feedback and we know that we're helping people move that dial, it is a great feeling. Congratulations on that project and that particular individual.

That's amazing. It's not about me, it's about them. They're the ones that do that. Exactly.

Yes, exactly.

What you said resonates with me. I get asked a lot by young people, "Gee, what should I do with my life?" And I said, "It doesn't matter what you do as long as you serve others." And you're gonna find meaning in life by serving others in some way or another, whatever it is that gives you meaning. But that service to humanity is where it is. And it's sad that it takes us a long time to learn that, to learn that, right? But when you're younger, you're doing your younger thing. It's all about money and making a place in the world and building a reputation and maybe doing a family and all that. And it takes a while for you to get to where you are. But there are a lot of young people who don't have meaning in their lives that are really not very happy. And I hope people that are listening to this will figure out, hey, if you're really unhappy in what you're doing, figure out a way to create some meaning, serve others in one way or another. I'm, I'm curious, Liz, what is it you think about you? You have this vast career. You, as you said, you're on 4.0. What is it about you that's unique? That you bring to the table that has made you as successful as you are in all of these different endeavors from starting out in music, classically trained, to teaching, to Miss Illinois, to getting into broadcast journalism, and now coaching and training and consulting. What is it about you that made all this happen?

I think it's a number of things. The first of which is a quote from my grandmother, which is, no knowledge is ever wasted. And that actually was the impetus for my book, Dare to Own You, because what I've been able to do is to carry all of my experiences, good and bad. I've been able to carry them forward and create these next chapters. Now, that doesn't mean it was easy, but it was perseverance. It was initiative and continually trusting myself as scared as I might have been. And sometimes people say, how did you go from music to this, to that? My themes and patterns. When I was singing and teaching music, it was all about sharing stories through song, using my voice and teaching. When I was on television, it was sharing other people's stories, using my voice. As a coach and a consultant, I'm helping other people learn how to tell their story and learn to use their voice. And as a keynote speaker and author, I'm sharing my story using my voice. So all of those themes and patterns have existed throughout my life. And I think what I said earlier also is that we know more than we think we know, and we have to learn to trust that. And how can we push out of our fears? One of the quotes that, that really kept me going when I was petrified to launch my own business, cuz again, I never ever wanted to do that. Just was just not on my radar, but it truly felt like that was the right thing for me to do at that point in time, is a quote by Robert Schuller who says, what would you attempt to do if you knew you would not fail? So what would any of us do if we knew we would not fail? And I consider myself an intelligent risk taker, if you will, somewhat calculated, because think about it, to take a risk of leaving teaching, leaving television, Now in this business, it does involve a little bit of risk, but it also is learning to trust yourself and that you're more than you think and persevering and running your own business. I don't have to tell you this, Doug. It's not for the faint of heart. It's just not, it's not easy to be an entrepreneur. It really isn't.

Right. You're right. And I think that you nailed it. Persistence, perseverance, and discipline.

Yes.

And having faith in your own vision. And no matter what, this is right. This is the right thing to do. And this is what I'm gonna do. I'm, and I think that's exactly right. I don't know why that is such a difficult mindset for people to grasp.

I think it's hard because we don't always trust ourselves, number one. And we are not willing sometimes to listen to that little small voice that's saying, maybe I should consider something else.

Right.

Maybe I have other gifts and talents an expertise that I can bring to the table and use in another way and help somebody else to be of service in another, in another way.

Right. We get stuck in the gilded cage.

Yes, we do.

The paycheck or the whatever the career path is gets us stuck. I know so many of my colleagues who are now retiring and they're all burned out husks and I'm just getting started.

And I still feel like there's more for me to do.

That's right. I couldn't have, if I had stayed in the practice of law, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Right.

And so leaving the practice of law and becoming a peacemaker has been life-changing. But to your point, it's the road not taken or the road less taken, right?

The road less traveled. Yeah.

Road less traveled. And it becomes a little, it can be a little intimidating at times. I wanna pivot just to a second. You are a great listener. You have to be from the moment you started studying music. You can't do music unless you can listen, right? How did you learn how to listen?

I think some of it is innate from the standpoint that as a journalist, let me use that as an example. I was a very good student of human nature, and that meant using my brain and my ears to listen. Okay? It's not just your ears.

Right.

It's your eyes and it's your brain to listen. And it's being fully present in the moment. And I think that is the biggest difference that people have who are good listeners and who are not good listeners. It's about being present. And the thing is, most people don't think they're bad listeners. Most people don't.

I have to tell you a story about that. Yeah, you're right.

Most people don't think they're bad listeners. But every one of us, from at some point in time, you just meet somebody and 30 seconds later, what was their name? It's how do you teach? You pay attention. Ah, Doug, nice to meet you. Doug, tell me about the work that you're doing with the Peace Project and the prisoners. And it was really amazing. Doug, tell me. Use their name. Okay. But it really comes down to just being so self-aware and being an effective listener is engaging both your brain, your eyes, and your ears. It's all of that. And that's where you start.

How did you learn that?

I think by being an interviewer. As a journalist, I have no choice but to do so. Because if I were to interrupt somebody, I might miss that golden nugget. I might miss that golden— if I only had 3 or 4 minutes or 5 minutes with somebody to do an interview, I had to be very concise and succinct with my questions. I had to be very strategic about it, but I also had to just wait and listen and let them speak. And what— this is a little trick that I had. There is to say, but it works. If I would ask a question, sometimes people say, oh, I don't really want to talk about X. Okay, so I ask a question, why? And what do they do?

They talk.

They start with why, and then I wait and I listen, and then they talk about X.

Yeah, I've done that.

So teaching people just— yeah, teaching people just to be self-aware and be present in the moment just stop what you're doing. Focus, focus, focus. Be present. Look the person in the eye, or look them in the screen. Or when you're on the phone, don't be also checking your email or your text. Really listen. It's a habit. It's a habit.

There you go. It, it is. It's a skill. And it's really hard for people because I think that we have— we're living in a culture today that has a very short attention span. All you got to do is spend 2 minutes on TikTok and you can get that.

Oh my gosh, I know.

And so it's very difficult for people to stay focused, and we have an educational system that does not prioritize that kind of discipline, focus, listening, paying attention stuff. And so I think it's really difficult for people to be effective listeners.

If you think about it, we are bombarded with information. And let's just use, for example, I don't know if anybody was watching the inauguration, but okay, we heard the speakers, whoever was talking on the screen, we saw crawls on the bottom with new information. There's just information coming at you all over the place. And so what do you focus on? And then that becomes the challenge of, am I listening to the person or am I reading the crawl on the bottom of the screen?

What's emotionally salient? Yeah, exactly. What's emotionally salient for me right now?

Exactly. Exactly. And one of the things, this is just a tip for your audience. When I'm working with clients who have to do a presentation, sometimes because of the industries that I'm working in, there is so much information on a slide. I'm like, I can't even digest it all. And I say, use an animation or use a build or something because your eyes and your ears can't do both at the same time. And if you're talking about something that is at the top of the screen, guess what people are going to do? They're going to look to the bottom or they're going to go all the way to the right. So bring them along. What do you want them to be paying attention to? That's right.

I learned that rule as a trial lawyer many years ago.

Yeah, I bet you did.

It's a slow reveal.

Yes.

In those days, high technology was having Harvard graphics slides on an overhead projector in a courtroom. That was super high technology.

Oh, I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was.

And even my first trial, in my first, in the first years, we didn't even have that technology. It was all Flip charts and blowups. And then we didn't even have that. We didn't even have blowups. The, the stuff, of course today it's crazy, but no, you're right. I, when it started with Harvard Graphics and then PowerPoint and that sort of thing, and there was a great book or article or some guy wrote about the Zen of PowerPoint. And he said, if you got more than 3 words on your slide, you're making a mistake.

My slides are very simple bullet points, more graphics sometimes, or images. Just a couple of words.

You evoke emotion because memory is associated with emotion.

That's right.

You can't learn without having emotion. So you evoke the emotion in the slide and what you're saying will land and be remembered.

One of my favorite quotes from Maya Angelou, who I had the pleasure and honor of interviewing many years ago before her passing, and I'm sure your audience knows this quote, people may not remember what you said. People may not remember what you did. But they will remember how you made them feel.

That's right.

And that's what communication is about. Being a good communicator is knowing how to listen. And those two things go hand in hand.

Exactly. Exactly. One more question for you. I know you're busy and I don't wanna take up too much of your time. What is one thing, Liz, about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

Some people might know this because I've revealed it along the way. I love ballroom dancing.

Really? I would not know.

Really. And when I was on television, I had the wonderful pleasure of doing a story with Tony Dovolani, who was one of the pros on Dancing with the Stars, which happens to be my favorite show, one of my favorite shows. And I vowed that day after dancing with him and learning a 30-second tango, I'm going to take ballroom dance lessons at some point in time in my life. And about 3 years ago, I did. And I danced for about 18 months to 2 years, and then I had to stop for a myriad of reasons. But it truly was one of those special moments for me. And I love the movement. I love the freedom. I love the expression. I love the journey that one takes in that transformation.

Wow.

And it's hard. Okay, can I just tell you, it is so hard. I'm just looking fine, and it's hard. And so in fact, I was just thinking about my instructor, Andrei Vitenko. And I was like, I need to reach out to André. I might have to get back into it cuz I, I do miss it. So that's something people may not know about me.

That's really cool. This has been a great conversation, Liz. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been absolutely wonderful.

Thank you so much for having me. A pleasure to connect with you and, and all the great work that you're doing out in the world. Thank you for what you bring to the table.

Oh, you're welcome. Take care. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.