320 - Blueprints of Leadership: Rethinking Architecture When Adversity Strikes with MCTIGUE Architecture Planning and Design's Andrew Pedrick

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Drew Pedrick, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder of an architectural firm formerly in Pacific Palisades, now a refugee of the fire, unfortunately. Called McTeague Architects. And you've been doing this for over 40 years. This will be an interesting conversation. Welcome.

Thank you so much, Doug. It's really, it's wonderful to be here. We've been talking for some time about doing this and everything changed on January 7th, January 8th.

You lived in the Palisades. I was teaching at Pepperdine, my graduate class at Pepperdine, and I saw the fire at about 11:50 in the morning on Tuesday, blow out over northern Santa Monica Bay. And I said, holy crap, that's the Pacific North Coast that was going up. And it was just horrible.

It was a shocking moment in so many ways from so many people describe it, uh, differently. But when you think about our work in architecture, everything became, uh, devastation with people wondering if they could even go back to the Palisades ever.. And so it wasn't just someone lost their home or thousands of people lost their homes. It was that the communities are, are gone. Gone. The churches, the grocery stores, the restaurants, the places where you go get a massage or get your nails done or buy a shirt, all zero.

I know. And as we were talking, I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley in Santa Marina, and Altadena is gone.

It's gone.

And my mom, before she passed away last year, lived up there and My brother, my youngest brother's home in Sierra Madre, fortunately didn't burn, but terrible internal smoke damage that has to be cleaned out. It's just awful.

Yes.

Oh, it's gonna be quite a recovery. And I guess you're working on that on a daily basis.

Oh, we are. We, we did two things. Let's say three. I'm gonna put aside that we had to evacuate and take care of ourselves. So let's put that aside for the moment that we had to, we make sure that we were okay. But the business, McTigue did two things immediately. And the first one was, and we're, by the way, we're, I'll explain more, but we're in different locations around the world. And so we're an agile, a virtual structure of business. I'm in Los Angeles. Others are as well. We were okay. We had to evacuate. We're okay. First thing we did business-wise is we sent an email out to all of our clients And everyone related to that and talked about the continuity of our own business because we have people's buildings, homes, restaurants, but in our computers, right? And in our, in our cabinets and drawings, rolled up drawings and all that. Of course, a lot of drawings are no longer, but all the virtuals, all the, all the files are intact. Our operations were intact. And we basically had no loss of continuity at all, not because we were really smart and figured a fire would come and take everything away one day. We were not planning for that. But we've been working on a resilient format of business since we began 13 years ago.

Wow.

And we didn't do that, as I said, we didn't do that on purpose from the point of view of thinking something's going to happen, but we did it on the basis that we wanted to structure ourselves so that we could do for people what maybe other formats of architecture studios could not do quite so well. Aside from creativity, aside from all the people that are part of McTeague, how we did it became very important 13 years ago. And I've worked for large, very large firms, like 55,000 people. And I've worked for very tiny firms that had 20 or 14. And you realize it's the right 8 people having the right— so doesn't matter if there are 54,500 other people. It's so— it's those people. And then the structures you have in place and the communication and processes and how well that can be described and described to others so that they can come into the business, do the work, move on. And so we're really fortunate, um, in a lot of ways.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to be a long recovery, unfortunately. Yeah.

And then the second thing we did was we, we set up a structure for how people could rebuild and we figured out there are about 7 different ways that people can rebuild their homes or offices or whatever.

And in the power— yeah.

In the past days, we're in the, we're in the eat and fire with all— it's, it's a whole dialogue I'm sure we could have about whether you need to rebuild really fast and really very inexpensively, or we're talking to people who want to do a new home. Because they were going to anyway. And so there's nothing left. So let's just, let's do something wonderful with what we can.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. And what's interesting is there were some homes in the Palisades that survived, and I don't know whether it was partly luck, but partly they were fire-hardened in, in ways that other homes weren't, which I thought was really interesting.

Uh, yeah.

I'm sure that when you start thinking about designing new homes for people in the Palisades, that's gonna be something to really seriously think about.

We did two homes after the Woolsey Fire 6 years ago.

In the Malibu— the big Malibu fire.

In Malibu and Del Canyon. And the house is about 3,400 square feet. And that's about what the old house was. And these folks had a wonderful opportunity if they wanted to do 5,000 or 6,000 square feet, incredible views of the ocean and all sorts of things. But we, McTeague, we don't really want people to build bigger just to build bigger. We don't see there's a really good social reason to do that. If you want to personally, fine. But they didn't. And so we, we did a new design of their old house and several things came out of that. One was that they wanted exactly the same floor plan. They did not like, that's where my kitchen was. And that was the sizes and locations mattered so much because they were devastated by the whole thing and they wanted to rebuild. But we learned a lot about hardening and we learned a lot about process. It's very challenging to work through the agencies and get approvals and permits.

Oh yeah. Especially when you're along the coastline there. I don't know how far the Coastal Commission has jurisdiction in. I don't know, a mile or something like that. I don't know whatever it is, but it's, yeah, it's tough being on the coast.

It's tough. It's tougher in California than a lot of other states and it's toughest along the coast.

That's right.

Yeah.

Let's get back to you, Drew. Let's start with your backstory. Tell us a little bit about your backstory. How you, how did you end up in California? I know you were an East Coaster.

I, I ended up here because I, in 2000, year 2000, I started to do cruise ship terminals. And so very odd.

Those are massive. Those gotta be massive structures.

They're large.

Yeah.

They're very large. They're like a, they're like a train station with one train.

Right.

That's two or three sometimes. And doing some of those in Florida. And after you do 2 or 3 or 4 of them, you might feel like you know how to do it. And some might say, oh, you're, he's, they're an expert in cruise ship terminals. So I've done about 28 cruise terminal projects, mostly in the US, some overseas, did a massive one with some fantastic architects out of London we partnered on in Hong Kong. And that building is the tallest building in the world. On its side.

It's stretched out 500 meters or something.

It's half, it's a half a mile long.

Wow.

It's a half mile long, which is incredible. I, how do you imagine, try to visualize a half a mile of one building and, and it serves two of the largest cruise ships on the planet.

Wow.

Or four of the not so large cruise ships on the planet. So we did, I've been doing a lot of those. That got me to come out to Los Angeles. Ultimately, I moved out here and took a position in another firm based on that work and then helped to finish the Los Angeles Police Department headquarters across from City Hall, which was another massive project, very technically complex and politically complex because it was— it was the largest vertical construction the city had done in 50 years.

Wow.

And the one before that was the Parker Center, which was the old police headquarters. And if you know the movie L.A. Story, at the very end of that movie, the, the two leads walk into the nighttime talking about how it's a new era for the police department and all the corruption is now swept out and there'll be a new day in the new headquarters. So that movie marked 50 years almost to the month or the week before we opened the new Parker Center, the new headquarters. And I had the honor of actually being the, the lead of the design team. To do that work. And so that was my first project here in LA.

So how did McTigue Architecture come about?

It came about because I left that— I left the large firm and I left the large firm because really, as massive as they were and as international, all the things that we had that we were doing, architecture was a very tiny piece of it. And I wanted to get back to the core of architecture that I had grown up through. And to create a firm that did not need to have multiple offices and thousands of people, but what was really the essence of what an architecture studio could be and to do it in a new way without the studio space. So 13 years ago, long before this, long before COVID right? We were virtual.

Wow.

We did not have the pleasure of Zoom calls like this or other technology tools. In 2011, but we, we worked remotely and we figured out how to do that as an architecture practice where I still draw by hand with a pen and a roll of paper. The team uses CAD and 3D and all the sophisticated tools that are available to us. So we started out with that structure and we've been doing this now all these years.

And you still draw, you still draw by hand?

I sure do. Yeah. There's my pen.

There you go.

Wow.

We have other technological versions of the pen that we use.

Yeah.

That's right.

How many people do you have in, associated with the organization?

Associated, or as I call the McTeague family, is about 2 dozen people.

Okay. And they're all over the place.

We are in, we're in Los Angeles. We are in Mexico City. We are in Argentina. We're in Boise, Idaho, Houston, Texas. We, we're doing a project right now in Wilton, Connecticut. So we have relationships there. We have relationships in London and South Africa. And we, we just are, we've, we figured out that to do what we do is really, of course, all about the people. And when we can work with people in various parts of the world from various cultural, social, economic backgrounds, our work seems to be better, we think, or we appreciate it more.

You know what, what's really interesting about that statement is that I'm just working on finishing up my 5th book on leadership empathy. And one of the things that I write is anybody who rejects DEI is a fool.

Oh, yes.

Because there's no way you can make good decisions unless you've got diversity of experience and opinions and perspectives in the room. And it sounds like you've done a good job of leveraging diversity.

It's a challenging thing for any— in lots of businesses and for lots of people, I'm sure. But in the creative world, it can be very challenging. So we are very selective also about the team members because we have to share. We can't walk in the room with a big ego.

There you go.

We can't say, this is the way, it's my way. You have to work.

That's the other thing I talk about is the difference between collaboration and coordination and cooperation and competition and compromise.

Yes.

The 5 C's.

Yes.

And how you have to, as a leader, have to manage those 5 C's, the group dynamic, in any group dynamic situation. And you're the guy that kind of is the glue that holds it all together.

I, let me see, what's the name of the book? I don't, which I don't have anymore, but the, the E-Myth, The Entrepreneurial Myth, and that myth, which I've come to love. And that's, you're an entrepreneur, you're a manager, and you're a technician. And I really believe in this. Yes, I'm very entrepreneurial, but I also have to manage work and I also have to, understand technically how to do it. So I want to be the entrepreneur, but when things get busy, I also have to do all these other things. If I don't leverage that, which I learned fairly early on in this, if I don't leverage and be willing to give up some of the entrepreneurial part of it as well as the management and the technical, we're not going to get anywhere. And I'll be sitting at 2 in the morning on a Friday night drawing something, and that's not going to grow. Do much good.

No, you gotta learn how to leverage. So you've been doing that, you've been doing this for a long time, over 40 years. What is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work?

Creating something that, that people deeply attached to. And that's for us, it's almost always the place where they live or work or play, of course. Right. But we've done other things too, but it's working with a group of people, which include the client to arrive at something that just never existed before. Right. And that's, that never gets old. Creating something.

It strikes me that your work is very emotional.

Yeah.

And when you're talking about creating special spaces, there's a lot of emotionality around space and where people live, work, and play. And being tuned into that strikes me as being really important.

I think that's, I think the empathic perspective is really critical to understand or to, to understand what you're trying to understand. Sometimes we don't know. We got invited to do a cannabis facility years ago and we'd never done one before. And you go into it saying, okay, we know how to design, we know how to create, we know how to work with people to arrive at what their program is and take that. And we understood the process. We did. We had never done this thing before. But yeah, being able to look at the emotional side of it, even from the point of view of business, right? We're putting our hearts into it. And of course, homes and other things are more, they're much more emotional.

Absolutely.

Much deeper.

Yeah. I'm curious, do you think you're going to have much, get much work out of the rebuilding Pacific Palisades?

We're talking to a lot of people right now. And so we think the answer is definitely yes. And it's almost like to that emotional point. We have to give of ourselves as much as we can and make sure that we're all retaining the energy that it takes to do that. It is almost like triage.

It could be overwhelming.

Yeah. So we have to be very careful of that. But what we've done is to devise the process side of this to the— in a way that we can then— we know the process, we've got that really clearly set down. So now we can better engage with people. And on that side of it, what do you want?

What do you need?

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's hard.

What are the, so what kind of, what are the kind of typical, other than dealing with a disaster zone, what are the kind of projects that you guys typically work on?

We're across 5 or 6 different, we call typologies, types of buildings and projects. And we don't really focus on the typology first. What we really focus on is more and more how we can help people to be, to design and build more resiliently, to last better, to be less destructive to the planet, what we call conscious architecture, which is really looking at people and place and the planet. And we tend to want to say to people, honestly, the planet matters first, right? Because if we, if we haven't solved, if we haven't maintained the planet, What else is the point? What are we gonna do? But we focus on those 3 things. We, I'm sorry, ask me the question. Please again.

Oh, I'm just curious. As with any professionals, some, many professionals specialize, some generalize. You've obviously done some gigantic projects. When I think about those big cruise line terminals, those are massive projects. The police department in LA, massive project. So you probably, you're doing some of that plus you're working on in residential design. Is that what I'm hearing? That it's across the board?

Yeah, we are. Well, right now and over the last, let's say, year or two, we've been working on reimagining how buildings can live a new life. So offices that go to residential or offices that just need a major shift to meet a marketplace for today. So we don't do too much buildings ground up right now, but we do a lot of renovation work and some changes, change of use, things like that. We do tenant interiors work. We've got in Pasadena right now, we have the first modular heavy timber multi-level interior in a building, in an historic building, in fact. And it uses heavy timber out of Canada.

Really?

We create, you know, a tri-level, which gets this tenant, the ground level up to a mezzanine and up to a rooftop experience. And so by working with the landowner, the building owner, landlord, we've come up with how do you do that in a way that can be permitted, which it is permitted. And how does he then have an asset if and when that tenant moves on? All of this sits with the ownership of the building so they can dismantle it and put it up in a new way or take it to another location they own rather than throw it in the dump. Yeah. So we're working with people on modular office spaces now. And that's exciting because we don't want to throw things in the dump anymore.

The other cool thing if you're working, I know in Old Town there's a bunch of old historical structures and you can work inside those structures and the city is happy because the, the sod is preserved and probably strengthened.

Oh yeah. Which, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This building, we didn't do the work on the core, what we call the core and shell, the building itself. But the building has been upgraded for seismic code and that sort of thing. Years ago in Connecticut, I ran a practice and we did 22 historic buildings, the facade restoration on those buildings, and they're 3, 4, 5 stories tall. And it's, to us, it's great to do something new and fresh and different, different. But it's also really wonderful to take an old building that's from, you know, 1890-something and figure out why the water is getting in, figure out what the problems are with the windows and why is air flowing through it and create something that people then can use in a new way. And so we do, right now we do tenant interiors, we do building reimagining, we do something else that's, we've just recently named over the last 2 years and we call Blue Architecture. And so we're all very used to green architecture, sustainability and energy and materials and all that. But we've, over all the years of doing cruise work and other waterfront, I began to, to realize that the water levels are going up in most places along the coastline. And they're going down in other places like places in the middle of the US that are now drier than ever. So we have more water in some places and less water in others. So water and land is a huge aspect of how communities exist in the first place. How many cities are on the West Coast and on the East Coast compared to inland? So water is a big issue for all of us and it's changing.

It's going to be a lot bigger issue in the years to come.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the business has fashioned itself around things that are, are what we call conscious architecture and how we support different goals. And our structure, as I mentioned, the people we team with, we team with lots of— and other consultants. We like to team with a lot of people. We like to team with— one project we teamed with biologists.

Wow.

Because food growth was a big aspect of that project.

Huh.

Well, so Drew, what do you think it is about yourself, you personally, that makes you so successful?

I don't feel it for one thing. I feel very fortunate. I, I'll put it this way. I feel very fortunate about it. I don't wake up feeling successful. I wake up thinking about how we're gonna look at this week and do something even better this week with our work and with our processes. And amongst each other as people. And the work flows out of that. It really does. I, I don't really, we don't really look for projects. We're looking to help people with fire rebuilds today, but we don't look for projects. Typically we look for relationships and that's what we build. And so relationships seem to spawn, uh, the, the kind of work that we do and how we can help. So that's what gets me up in the morning. And what worries me at night is Am I bringing my best to the table?

So my sense is that when people meet you, they recognize they're in the presence of a very caring, passionate person.

Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

Yeah. And, and you're there to serve rather than to be idolatized, right? Yeah. No ego involved here. Just let, let's, how can I serve you? That's the sense that I get.

Yeah.

So the show's called Listening with Leaders because I, have learned that listening is probably the most underrated skill that human beings have. Most people never learn how to listen. You strike me as being a very good listener. Tell me about the journey of learning how to listen for you.

It's interesting how I think along the way I've learned how I wasn't listening. We've all had—

First step.

I've had examples.

Yeah.

I'll tell you a little quick story, but I began work in 1981 and I went to work for my grandfather's architecture practice in New York. He had long since passed away. The name had changed over and over again. But I ended up there and about a year in after we were, I was there, we were doing a law firm's offices and it was the law firm that was the firm's law firm, right? So they were both clients of each other. And that law firm kept telling the managing partners they were not listening. And as a kid, 24, 26 years old, listening to that, I was astounded because this was my grandfather's architecture firm. How could it be that we're not really the best? How could that, how could we not listen? And what I found through that process was nobody was listening to each other, the client, the architect, back and forth. And I began to think about that. You gotta really pay attention or you can really screw things up badly. And they're attorneys. So let's be careful. We had later on, I had a, a situation where we were doing a large interiors project. I was working for another firm and the massive copier, this is in the 1980s.

I remember.

Copier machines were enormous. They were like, they were like 10, 12 feet long, did not fit into the doorway to go into its room.

Somebody had not thought about that.

And so the salespeople blame the technical people, blame the salespeople. And we stood there going, we just listened to you guys and it doesn't fit. And the client looked at the managing partner of the firm I was with and said, this is on you. And I thought, no matter how great a design, if you don't listen to that, if you don't really pay attention to all of those things, a great project can feel like it was a loss. And so you have these situations throughout the course of a career that are defining and things not to do. And it just, I think for me, it's just been a feedback loop of a lot of projects. You know, you learn what works, what doesn't work, and you learn about working with people. 44 years, I've worked with a lot of different people.

You have a little gray hair, right?

A little gray hair. Yeah. Yes. Quite a lot of gray hair, but that's it. Listening, because listening is going to help you get the result that you want. So even from the sort of very selfish perspective, listening is a good thing.

But no, and I would say it's listening not just to what's said, but also to what's felt, emotions, and listening to what's not being said.

You do, especially probably in any kind of field, and you never— you've interviewed a lot of people, I'm sure. In, in our world, a lot of people will look at what we've drawn and nod like they understand it, and when you really scratch in, they don't read drawings. They don't understand the drawing because that's not their world. Of course, we do a lot of things in 3D because it's easier to present and represent to people. But yeah, you have to look for the cues, not just the words, right? Um, at the beginning of our process, we do something called ideation. And ideation for us oftentimes is a session of a lot of imagery. Ranging across the various aspects of a project. And we will go through that as quickly as the client's comfortable doing. And when you see them do that, you go, okay, pay attention, tag that photograph. And when they sit, so it's really like you said, it's looking for cues and then asking, following up on that. What, what was it about that? Not why did you like that, but what was it about What struck you? Or was it similar to something you had before? And can you tell a story about that? Yeah.

That's beautiful. That's exactly the kind of listening that I advocate. Tell me, describe for me, explain to me, get people and tell a story. Tell me the story behind what it is.

Yeah.

Why did you react that way?

Yeah. Yeah. With the Woolsey Fire, the clients in Malibu, oftentimes both the couple would be in tears in a meeting. And so in that very heavy emotional state, we would still want to find a way to kindly ask. And how do you do that with somebody who's just breaking down? First you care for them, right? And then you carefully suss out what was it that caused that? And you can't ask that directly, but you can find other ways to ask it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Amazing. One more question, Drew, and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

The first thing that comes to the top of my head is I'm actually quite dyslexic.

As an architect? And, and it does, that's interesting.

I think a lot of, I actually know a fair amount of people, creative people who are dyslexic. And I think that's somehow or other how, certainly it's how I managed my way through school. And probably strengthened visual skill sets and other things that were workarounds to it. I'm a terrible reader. Reading takes me a lot, but I've worked out how to do that. Dyslexia is an issue.

Yeah. My wife's dyslexic and she struggled for a long time, but I also think that the dyslexic people I've met are highly creative. They have to use—

for some reason—

a different kind of different part of their brain than the part of their brain that looks at—

yeah, unless I'm tired. If I'm tired, then all bets are off. I bet it all comes out. But I don't know, I don't— I'm probably a very private person in a lot of ways, but it doesn't— at 66, that doesn't do me a lot of good to keep things secret from people. So I'm— I try to be an open book. There you go. Whatever life is, it is.

You strike me as being an introvert. Would that be a fair description? So, well, I'm an introvert too. And what's interesting is I would say of the 340 people I've interviewed on this show over the last 2 or 2 and a half years, 99% of them have been introverts. Wow. Isn't that interesting?

Why, why is that, do you suppose? What, what did you—

I don't know. I don't know why. I suspect that we, as introverts, we go inside for our energy. We're not the kind of people that say, hey, I can hardly wait to go to the party. We're kind of, really, do I have to? Yeah. Don't take me there. Yes. And I think that as introverts, we tend to be more, a little more self-reflective, thinking a little bit deeper because we're internal, much more internal than extroverts. And I suspect that is a leadership quality that a lot of people don't appreciate, that you can sit and think about problems and ponder things and not need to be around a lot of people and a lot of churn and energy to figure things out. That's my guess.

It's so refreshing to hear you say that. It's, we have so many people who are forceful leaders, vocal leaders, feeling the need to stand up and speak over other people kind of leaders. And you are probably, I imagine, so far better to answer this than I could answer, but are we seeing a shift? Are we seeing this? Has it always been like this, but the noisy leaders just always have more presence or what's happening?

My thinking is that for many generations, there was this image of the leader as being the John Wayne macho, always in control, commanding people, telling people what to do. And there are historical times when that was really important to have that kind of leader. But if you think about it, in the last, in our generation, since we've been born, a few years older than you are, not a little, yeah, a little bit older.

Mm-hmm.

Our, the generations that came after us are the first generations in the history of the planet that never had to worry about food.

Mm-hmm.

Never had to worry about shelter. Really never had to worry about healthcare. Even as poor as they are, they can still get healthcare. Survival just was no longer an issue.

Yes.

And I think that the, the old models don't work for them.

Mm-hmm.

And people who are a little bit more introspective a little more introverted, who are— think a little more, I think are the people that are gonna be taking over. And I think what we're, for example, we're seeing in Washington, DC right now with Musk and Trump and everything else, I think it's the last gasp of that old style of leadership. It's gonna do a lot of damage, but I don't think it's gonna last very long.

Yeah.

And I think that we're gonna see a whole new way of it's not gonna be radical. It's so radical that we, it's gonna be gradual, but we're gonna see a radical shift in the way that people lead. And I just think it's been evolving over the last 70 years. So we'll see. We'll see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm, I'd say I'm sure. I imagine your family, you know, your parent, your dad, your mom, how they grew up, right? My dad was a traditional corporate guy and the way he had to, work was really alien to his personality. He's very much, he was very much extroverted introvert, so to speak.

He had to work in a hierarchy. Yeah. Layers. And there was a command structure and all of that stuff that sort of began to evolve in corporate America in the, at the turn of the century as the country industrialized. And that had its advantages, but it no longer does. This, I told you, I'm writing, working on my 5th book on leadership empathy. And I think one of the things I wanna talk about is this is the Anti-Musk Leadership Handbook.

Good.

It's how to lead in the 21st century, not the 19th century, like where Musk is at. And, and so we'll just see. It's just, it's really interesting me to, to see how this all unfolds.

Yeah. So it's a terrible analogy, but it's like the burning embers of the, of the old logs. Exactly. They're heading out. Exactly.

Yeah.

And they're, yeah, because they don't serve, they don't, We're not, we wouldn't be in this predicament environmentally if we had a different leadership structure for the last couple hundred years.

That's right.

If we had come through the Industrial Revolution of the 1700s with a non-egotistical, with a non-Robert Baron viewpoint on how to build and create, we would not be in the spot we're in.

But yeah, we are, we are.

But here we are. Yeah.

Anyways, great conversation, Drew. Thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you too, Doug. It was wonderful to talk with you. It's so great. I'm looking forward to your 5th book. Oh, absolutely. And all that, all more.

Thank you.

Thanks so much. Take good care.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.

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