326 - Beyond the Metrics: A Sales Leader’s Story of Growth Through Empathy with Alleyoop's Gabe Lullo

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Hey, BluLo, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You're the CEO of a company called Alyoop out of Buffalo, New York. And you're into everything sales.

Um, yes.

Tell us a little bit about your background.

Yeah. Thank you, Doug. I appreciate the time and a huge fan of what you do and what you stand for. So I'm really appreciative of the time and being on the show. Um, what we do and what we stand for, is that what you're looking for?

Let's start with you. What's your background? What's your backstory?

Yeah. Yeah. So I started off in recruitment and staffing right out of school, started my own recruitment and staffing business with a colleague of mine. And it was exciting. We found an opportunity, a niche in the marketplace in my hometown. We were able to recruit, specialize in sales, revenue drivers, and marketing professionals. Spun off a sales training industry and it really kept me on the road a lot. And my daughter was just born at the time when I was really evaluating like what I wanted to do next in my next chapter after 10 years of doing that. And I found this company called Alayoupe. And it was at a time and in a place where the company itself was looking to really grow and expand. So my recruitment background was valuable to them. So we sat down and, and we started really diving deep in a new role called the SDR, Sales Development Rep. This is right when tech and data companies started realizing that it may make sense to add a new division or new step in the sales process. And so we specialize on that role in itself. And created a managed service offering to companies. And we've been doing that now for over 11 years. I did leave at the time because I wasn't owning the company at that point. I wasn't the CEO at that point, but I left to go run two software companies and I was lured back by the founder and CEO to come back and take over. He can retire. He has 5 kids, so he was excited to put his feet up a little bit. And that's what I've been doing.

And that's a real compliment to you that he would call you back and say, hey, come be the boss and run the company. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, I was honored and grateful to get that call. We always remained close after I left. And yeah, it was absolutely awesome. And we really focused on growth and business itself has just metamorphosed multiple ways over the years. But yeah.

So describe for us what Aliyub does. What does it provide for companies?

Sure. So half of our business is enterprise. We have clients like Ingram Micro, Peloton, ZoomInfo, uh, and then the other half are startups. Usually CEOs are who our point of contact is, and they're, they're starting their business. And we have two different offerings that allow for us to do the appointment setting, the prospecting, the lead generation for their sellers, whether it's a founder-led sales and CEO-driven sales business, or whether it's a large enterprise. We focus on prospecting through cold calls, email, LinkedIn, all business to generate interest and see if it's a valuable conversation to have with their sales team.

And so basically you're doing the upfront lead generation stuff. And then once a lead's generated, it goes over to the client to nurture the lead and eventually close.

Yep. We have 110 sellers, sales development reps on our sales force. We're making about 11 million prospecting calls a year. So it's a high volume, high— it's a big operation for sure. But it's a simple— it's very difficult. I have a podcast too called Do Hard Things. Sales is hard. But it's a simple ask. We're just trying to see if we can get two people like you and me in a room together to see if it makes sense to do business together. And that's what we're trying to do. We're professional introducers.

Uh-huh. Yeah. It's really hard. It sounds like it's a numbers game.

Yeah, I would say sales is math, right? You can have a great attitude, you can have a great skill set, you can know how to talk to people, you can have a great script and an objection handling guide next to you, but if you don't pick up the phone and actually get a batting average in place, it doesn't really matter. So it's definitely math for sure.

And people have to— I guess people just have to get used to a lot of nos for the occasional yes.

Speaking of batting average, yes, like baseball, you can bat .300 in baseball You're a starter, but you're out 7 times out of 10. So yeah, it is definitely more nos to the yes, but that is sales and it's not about attaching yourself to the no. It's about learning from it and knowing what to say when someone says something and being prepared and working the numbers.

There you go. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm, I work with a guy in Winnipeg, Canada named Joe Marcoux. Who, um, has SOS Dojo. I'm one of his black belts teaching people how to have that buyer's conversation and handle objections and stuff like that. It's really interesting. You've been doing this for a while now. What is it that gets you excited to go to work every day, especially with a remote company like you guys?

Yeah, we're fully remote, but we really gravitate to video. It's funny, I have an employee on my team, we worked together for 3 years and never met, and I got invited to their I got invited to their wedding was the first time I met them. So it was a pretty nice invitation, but we were able to build a relationship across the country on a video call for 3 years. And that's usually the case in our remote world these days. But going back to people, she's a great example because what gets me passionate and fired up and excited is that we are in the people business. We don't have a widget. I don't ship any products. I don't have an algorithm or a patent. You know, we're a professional service company. So people— you gotta like people to do this, right? And I really seen individuals get started with us wanting get into the sales career maybe for the first time. They come to here to start that and then they move on. We call them AlluAlumni. We have people leading as senior vice presidents and CROs of massive companies that started their first sales job here. So being able to do this for as long as we have, it's been great to see people mature and grow their career and, and be in a sliver or a little piece of that influencing them to get to that level. It has been nice.

What kind of people do you look for when you're hiring?

It's funny, it's not on the resume, right? It's difficult when you're looking for salespeople, it's not on the resume, right? Education and skillset and experience, yes, important, but the number one thing we look for is grit and tenacity, right? Like to your point, hearing the word no more times than the word yes comes with a lot of persistence, perseverance, consistency, and grit that you must have. We try to seek to understand if those are the things that resonate with the individual when we're interviewing them.

Wow. And you recruit from all over the world?

We do. About 70% of our business is US and then 30% is global. So we tie the reps who are associated with those accounts to who they're prospecting into. So if they're prospecting into EMEA or Europe, we're having reps that live there. If they're prospecting into Latin America or into the US and Canada, we try to have our reps live there and for nuances, cultural time zones, all those things.

Wow. How do you manage all that?

Yeah, it's a lot. We have technology that really helps us in a big way. There's some really amazing tech partners out there that build tools and tech for a remote sales force and a physical sales force that is not the company. And we focus on using technology to drive Expectations, training, and support, accountability.

So what is it about yourself? You've been in business probably 20 years now. What is it that you bring to the table that's made you personally successful?

What's funny, I feel like I'm humble enough to get out of people's way. I'm a recruiter at heart. So in the people business, I think that is paramount because I have this ability to find people. Find smart people that are much smarter than me in many cases, and then put them in, in a place where they can shine and thrive. My sellers, for instance, I talk to them all the time. I said, listen, you're building your own business within this business. And so if we can get out of your way and support you and give you the tools and tech you need, just let me know what it is, I'll buy it for you. And so we try to find people that really know how to do their job very well and then not upstage them in any way. So I think that is something I've been able to figure out, and I think it's super important.

How many employees do you have now?

We have right now about 145 employees, 150 employees.

And of those, how many people are doing the sales work?

About 110. So the rest is operations and enablement.

Wow. So you got a huge sales force out there.

Yeah, we're like the third largest in our space right now. Number 1 and 2 are at 200 and 400 respectively, but there's thousands of companies that are in this space. They're just much smaller. Been able to get to a level where it's a pretty big beast of its own.

So in, in addition to your ability to hire people and get out of their way, what else is it about you that makes you successful?

I think I've lived every role in this company. When I started, I wasn't, like I said, a CEO. I started off in the sales management role. I moved into recruiting, I moved into enablement. So I've lived in different spaces within the company. And so I, I feel I could hop into almost every person's role. There's a couple exceptions. I'm not an IT developer, I'm not a software developer. So the technical start of the technical pieces get me sometimes. But again, that's why we hire smarter people to know how to do those things. But I feel like when I'm hiring somebody, especially a leader on our team, it's a let me go do it and show you how to do it and then you go do it. In my absence is how we bring and onboard people. And so it's a lead from the, you know, if some, even if an SDR or somebody who is on the sales floor is having a bad day, I'd be as accessible as humanly possible. And we get on a call and we figure it out and go from there.

Wow. I'm going to pivot a second to listening. I teach people how to listen. That's not a skill that we learn. We're not taught how to listen. And most people pick it up by osmosis. But in, in looking at your website and some of the videos you've done, you've turned out to be a, I think, an amazing listener. How did you learn how to listen?

I was raised in an Italian family of a lot of talkers. My dad passed away when I was really young. Let's get like really into it if you don't mind. Like my dad dies when I'm really, really young. I had to grow up very fast. I'm the oldest. And my mom was always working two jobs. So my grandfather's a big influence in my life. And he was one of those very, you know, entrepreneur, very business-minded people. People. And he was a talker. And I just gravitated, I really looked up to him. And he just captivated a room. He could control a conversation. He was well respected. And so I just listened to everything he said. And it just, for some reason, it just, you know, clicked for me. My grandmother at a young age always said, "Gabe, ask questions or you're not going to know anything." And so my cousins would always make fun of me for being the weird one who asked all the questions all the time. "Stop asking questions." I got made fun of. All the time, but now it's, I'm really happy that she encouraged me to do that because that's where we, that's where we learn. And in sales, I think listening is so important because we're listening to calls, we're listening to, and it's about this mimicking, right? It's about hearing what other people are saying and then trying to intimidate, not intimidate, imitate that. And I think that's really, a lot of salespeople gravitate to listening to how people do things because it's a voice type of role as opposed to more of a reading, studying, researching type of role.

Yeah, I agree. In the sales organization that I teach in, we teach people how to listen to emotions. This is what I contribute to the thing. And so we're not listening to words, we're listening to how people are feeling. And when you can understand what they're feeling and validate those feelings, you can build that instant loyalty and trust. And people feel like you really understand what they're saying and it makes them more likely to listen to the solution that you're offering them. It, it's a critical skill that very few people really have. How do you, the other thing I, that struck me since I'm writing a book about it is you mentioned empathy and the importance of empathy in the culture of your company. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah. When you look at reports all day, every day of people, whether you, when you're talking about numbers or you're talking math, like you can look at reports, but at the end of the day, these are people behind it. And usually I see, when I see a blip in a report, there's something wrong. And we take a look at what it is that may be wrong. Is it data? Is it tools? Is it, are we not messaging? It's something there. So we look at those things first, but 9 times out of 10, the reason why our rep is having an issue and the blip is in the reporting is something personal is going on in their life. You know what I mean? And, and it's— and we find that out. So we try to get to know our team, myself included, as humanly possible. And so all of our managers have to know what we call their why. So we have— you have to know every single why on your team. Manager has about 10 people on their team, so they're literally studying this each and every single day, and they're determining, okay, what is their why? What makes them tick? Why are they here? Why are they wanting a paycheck? Why are they putting in 40, 50 hours a week away from their family? What is it? And if you understand what that is, then you could be empathetic to the scenarios that come up if they're having a bad day and we can get people on track and we can give them the tools, the support, the runway they need. And usually it comes back to help you in a big way.

How well do the managers take to that idea?

Oh, they love it. They love it. Usually we love to promote within. It's very rare where we're gonna be promoting a manager from outside. We're growing, so sometimes we have to do that, but we really like to promote our SDRs into management to get that career path. So they're used to it, right? They're used to having that type of conversation with their manager and then really actually anticipating doing it on the other side of the aisle, if you will. But they really do love it because they feel like that's the biggest impact and that's what, you know, that's the biggest amount of, uh, solutions and, and results are in the numbers for sure.

How do you transition somebody from an SDR to a manager? It's a completely different job, different mindset. Anything more different than being a leader than from being a producer?

Well, it's interesting. I have this phrase where like, not every top producer is a manager.

That's right.

But every manager needs to be a top producer. And so how I look at it is you want to, again, to that showing and tell. So if you're a top producer and you move into management, it's It's a totally different skill set, but to have the respect of the team because they know you're good, right? To have the knowledge to teach and tell them, hey, I heard this 1,000 times. This is what you want to do. It's almost like if you could advise, again, it's like a team captain, again, basketball, right? The team captain is usually the best player on the team and they're the ones telling them, hey, this is what I used to do when I was in your seat. This is what you should be doing. And it's more of a coach as a manager and especially in sales. But I've seen people, we had a situation years ago where there is this, the number one producer on the entire sales floor was just a jerk. He would show up late. He didn't care. Like he had this like chip on his shoulder. He wasn't fun to work with. And I let him go. And people thought I was nuts to let go our number one money producer on the sales floor. But it was just a culture problem. And that negativity, no matter how good you are, it doesn't balance out. So you don't have to be great. I'm sorry, you do have to be great to be a manager, but even if you're a great producer doesn't mean you're management material.

You got to, you've got to be willing to learn a whole new set of skills.

Yeah, exactly. And we pour in personal development and, and books. And my favorite gift for Christmas and birthdays for company presents is books, or, and opportunities for people to learn or get better. And again, I think it was John Maxwell that said leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less, right? So if you can influence people, what's the definition of influence? Sales. Sales is influence, right? Getting people to say yes to something is influence, right? So there's a lot of similarities there and a lot of overlap for sure.

Where do you see Aliyub going in the next 10 years?

We doubled in the last 2, and so we say we, we were really proud of that, and we're looking to absolutely do that again in the next 18 months. We're looking at really not just growing at all costs or growing at the expense of of quality, but growing in a way where it is not going to break. And we're still providing a high-valued offering to our clients, but still offering more people opportunities to get into this space because it is growing. There's more jobs, racks open for this role than ever before. And so we're definitely following suit in the marketplace.

Scaling in your business sounds like finding, just finding more people. Who are really good at what they do or can be trained to be really good at what they do.

Yes. There's two sides of it, right? We need to find clients who are excited about growing their businesses, and then we have to find people who are a great match for them and then managing it. We're not a staffing firm, but there's a lot of staffing involved in it because we're managing that program. But you'll see right now, it's interesting, and I know you have a lot of CEOs listening, The SDR function, the appointment setting function, or breaking up the sales journey, if you will, really started in the software SaaS tech space, but now it's grown into so many other industries. We have golf simulator companies, we have Peloton, we have staffing firms, we have financial analysts, we have podcasters. So there's a lot of different industries that are now starting to realize, hey, you know what, I don't want to be prospecting all day every day. I should probably hire someone to do that and let me all the sales, you know what I mean?

Wow.

Sounds really cool. You're doubling every 18 months. You can't do that forever, but you can probably do it for a while. What, is there a lot of demand for the services that you provide?

There is. And to the point I was just mentioning, there's a lot of industries that are really gravitating to it. There was a shakeup, right, over the last couple of years in the SaaS and tech space. A lot of companies are not getting the investments. And VC firms are not investing as much as they used to be. But because of that, those VPs of sales who used to work in SaaS and tech are going into other industries and they're firstly saying, hey, where are my SDR teams? Where are all my appointment setters? And like, what's an appointment setter? So we are realizing that we're following our point of contacts at other companies in a lot of industries. So we're opening up a lot of new spaces for what we do.

That's pretty cool. Where's AI gonna take you guys?

Yeah, so we use AI at almost every turn right now, um, but not in ways that some people are thinking. It's, of course, some people are saying it's going to replace everything in sales. I don't see it that way. I see it as it's an add-on. I see AI, what we're doing with it, is a lot of training and enablement and a lot of research. So we're researching ideal client profiles, we're researching companies, we're researching accounts and prospects.. And we're saving a ton of time in doing that. And then we're also using it as ways for training our reps much more effectively. We have an AI bot literally going back and forth doing role plays with our reps to get them conditioned and excited and ready to go and sharpen the axe, if you will. And then also we analyze, we're analyzing calls, we're analyzing responses, we're analyzing different types of messaging. Using AI to enable and enhance those.

Yeah, I agree. It's a huge time saver. I'm using it. As I said, I'm writing, working on my 5th book now on leadership empathy. And AI has been a lifesaver. My 5th book, I thought I was pretty fast. I got it done in 16 weeks. And this book, I'm in the final editing and the whole thing has taken me 6 weeks to write using AI.

That's incredible. That's incredible.

For the research. It is amazing. One more question, Gabe, and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself That we would never know about unless you revealed it to us.

Ooh, like a fun fact?

Yeah, like a fun fact.

Totally random, but if you see on my video, I know this is, could be audio, I have juggling pins and juggling knives over there.

You're a juggler.

I actually, yeah, I used to be literally a professional juggler.

Really?

So I, I would make money to juggle. So I had a partner and it was juggling a whole act and it was, it was pretty fun, but totally random of a question, of course.

Is that how we got through college?

Be having a juggle?

Yeah.

Really?

Yep. That's, yep. That's what I was doing. More people were working or, or partying. I was juggling on the weekends.

So that is really funny. Good for you. It's been really great talking to you and meeting you. You have an amazing company and an amazing story. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you so much, Doug.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media, to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team.

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