333 - Embracing Vulnerability: Why Authentic Leadership Matters More Than Ever with Joe Davis

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Joe Davis, welcome to Listening with Leaders. I was so intrigued when you learned about me and wanted to be on my podcast because you just retired. After 37 years at Boston Consulting. And I think most people listening know that Boston Consulting is one of the largest international consulting firms on the planet, and you have done everything. So I'm working at— we don't have a lot of time to talk, but I think you're the kind of guy I could talk to for hours. Let's just start off with backstory. How did— how do you get into consulting? And I think you said you did some sales for a while out of college, but let's just start at the beginning.

Oh my, because, okay, I'm just going to be direct and truthful, which is what I am. To get into consulting is, first off, really hard because it's a little bit of luck. Of course, I got in through HBS. I think it's almost a lot easier coming out of HBS. You gotta— I hate to say this— you gotta come out of one of these schools.

I know, I'm a Dartmouth graduate, so I understand.

Okay, I hate to say that, but although I went to Whitman College, which is a great school, but not— I hadn't gone to HBS, I wouldn't have found it. But at HBS, they have a This is 40 years ago, as you pointed out. Black Saturday was the day where all the investment banks and consulting firms came. And literally you'd have, you just sign up for as much as you want. You have interviews on Saturday, you get calls for second round on Sunday and offers on, this is for summer job offers on Sunday night.

Wow.

So on Monday morning, nobody would talk about what happened cuz you didn't know if the guy sitting next to you got a job. You didn't wanna be embarrassed with each other. So to be honest, somehow I personally, you asked how did one get in, but I got, obviously something clicked. It's also a little bit of luck. But I will tell you a couple stories. This was 37 years ago when BCG was really a strategy consulting firm in the pure 8-week studies, smart as hell people, leave the slide deck behind. No one else, that's exaggeration a bit, but not everyone could grasp it all. After my summer, my, the per— two comments. One, an HBS professor just said, Joe, you'll never survive there. You're not smart enough. Oh, okay. You ask what forms a person? A little bit of, little bit of motivating someone through negative energy. And when I got the full-time offer, the partner said, this is really great, Joe, because we use big words and all kinds of stuff and you talk with the client in a way they can engage with, which is also maybe a compliment, but maybe a put down. But I, okay, I got my strengths, I'll use them.

Absolutely. So you started out right outta business school, outta Harvard, working for them. And tell me the trajectory of a 37-year career at a massive consulting firm. That took you all over the country and all over the world.

All over the world. Yeah. There's a lot of trajectories, obviously. But everybody, I will say, to be fair to my firm, you are a consultant and I was a consultant serving clients the bulk of my time, most of my career until I became the head of North America. Then it was mostly management and leadership with, but still having a client. Yeah. I had a heck of a fun career. I, a couple years in, actually a piece of paper came around those days. It was paper. What office would you like to work in? If you wanted to transfer. And I checked every office on the list, including Moscow.

Wow.

The head of the office said, Joe, and I was a second year, said, Joe, he called me and said, Joe, you were a discussion topic at the executive committee meeting. I don't know what, I'm just some second year who's, he said, you're the only person in the world that checks Moscow. Really? He said, do you really want to take, I had two children, two little girls, and you're, you really want to go to my, this was pre-The Wall, everything.

Right.

Did you really want to go there? I said, no, I just was checking. I said, maybe you better erase it. I said, okay, let's erase it. But I did have an opportunity to go to Australia for a couple years, which is a little bit uncommon in consulting, but it was an incredible opportunity to just work outside my own market, get to know new people. My mentor, which we can talk about, important mentorship, said, you want to come and open the Washington office? I was in Boston. You stick with your mentor unless it's really inconvenient. And two, I thought it'd be fun to open an office. And that led to consulting plus leadership or management. I eventually ran that office, ran the Northeast system. Started a public sector practice, a lot of different twists and turns along the way, and then eventually led North America.

So how do you make the shift from being a producer as a consultant to being a leader, which is a totally— Yeah, not, it's not producing. It's a very different set skillset.

I hope all my colleagues don't listen to this. I mean, one thing I will, just to be fair, you have to be a producer almost the entire time. I ran the Northeast system, which was the largest system in the world. I still was 60%. Consulting and clients. My number target may be a little bit less because of the management, but it was still there. But to your point, it is really different because consultants are typically not managers. No offense to all my friends. They're not true, not leaders. They're very analytical, very smart. They know how to work well with people. They're usually pretty good listeners. One of your important points, but that's different from motivating, inspiring people. And I, I can't, So the, I guess the thing for me at least, and probably for anybody, first off, there's experience along the way that help grow you, but also getting thrust into a role. But in the consulting world, if you're really good commercially, that's when you, it's kind of, wait, through everywhere for some reason. For some reason, why are we having you now manage? Why don't you get back out there and sell?

Yeah. There's this myth that if you're really good at producing, that means you're going to be a really good leader of people who are producing, which is a totally false it's totally false.

Yeah.

Leadership is a completely different set of skills.

Especially leadership. You might be able to go manage an office, which is okay. And managing BCGers is maybe not as hard as managing a son because it's all up or out. They're hard to get promoted or I quit and go do something else. But there are also maybe a lot of egos involved. You gotta deal with that or some damn smart people. But you're right. A lot of, I don't think a lot of consultants, and I know you were an ex-lawyer, I don't think a lot of The purpose— persons that got thrust into leadership roles became real leaders. They could manage, they could run the office, they can make that work, which is great. But leading, leading, inspiring, and all that might be a little different. And you know where I really— I'll let you ask questions, but when— and I'll jump— when COVID hit, that was a time for leaders. Oh, that was not a time— managers are important, right? That time where all the traits of inspiring, connecting, engaging, listening, being vulnerable, but all packaged up. And I think it exposed the best leaders. Leaders and not exposed, but helped us identify. Yes.

People, the best people rose to the top because that's when it was most challenging. You learn these skills from being there.

Yeah. Oh yes, of course. But I had experienced experiences and I, one, I had an incredible mentor. I will say I've had an incredible mentor. He's the one that opened the Washington office. I was a junior guy, opened with him and he just spent a lot of time teaching, training, et cetera, all the consulting craft. And he happened to be a good manager and pretty good leader and the leadership craft. So a mentor is essential. The The other thing I'll say though is if you learn from mistakes and experiences, and can I, I'll try to make, I'll tell a quick story. When I was at Procter Gamble, I got promoted when I was 24 or 25 after 2 years. And now I had sales reps I was leading and they, there were a couple of 'em were career salespeople. They were 45 years old to me. They were like, oh my gosh, shit, I'm 24. I'm scared to death. I ride with them 2 weeks. I never gave any feedback because who am I to give this guy feedback? Then at the end of the year, I did the annual review and I wrote down all the things he needed to work on from what I saw, really based on my reading of the manual and my 2 years of work. And I started launching into the review and this guy, Rich was his name, he said about 2 minutes in, he said, wait a minute, Joe, you ride with me every 2 weeks and you've never said any of this. What the blank is going on here? What the— and I just was mortified and oh my gosh. And of course I said, yeah, but I was afraid to tell you. And who am I to train a 4— and my, after I walked out, after he walked out, we finished, my manager her boss at the time said, you never write a review again where you haven't— where all the words on that piece of paper they haven't heard before you get in that year interview. It's moments like that, right, where you learn how to be a leader. And now you have to learn from them. If you just ignore it, then shame on you. But if you capture those moments, say, wow, I am never going to forget that one, no matter how hard it is to tell people what they need to work on, you, whatever. Experiences, to your point, and mentorship are two.

So what's it like leading some of the smartest people in the world who think, who not only are they the smartest people in the world, they know it and they're not afraid to tell you.

Yeah. But I guess a couple of points, you almost have to be smart about leadership because you could say, go jump off that cliff and they'll go jump off. Not literally, but they will because they want to deliver. They really have drive. And I think the main one, you just gotta make sure you've got, which goes with anything, the right people in the right role with the right— don't have the least analytical who's, but still pretty darn good, but really good with clients doing the hardest analytical piece. Let the most— oh no, but he is gotta learn. Wait a minute. Let the most analytical person do that. Put 'em in, put 'em out of their comfort zone. That's the one thing people put people in the where they can best deliver, which is smart people don't care as long as they have a chance. I do think though, just to your point, just 'cause they're smart, everyone has a lot to learn. They don't know how to necessarily learn, engage with people. They may not be very good listeners 'cause they think you have a lot of I already have all the answers. So there is still all the normal training that one has to do. One thing you do have to do though, we used to, you know, I've, you've probably heard of the strength-based training type of deal. Oh yeah.

Outta Gallup.

We used to have these piece of paper, two sides, what you need, what you're good at, what you need to work at, work on. And it was an upper-out place. So what you need to work on was all black, all ink, cuz if you didn't work on it, you'd lose your job. So it was almost like, that's nice to do, but people will say, wait a minute, you're just beating me up. Isn't there anything over here? We actually, And, but the point is, yes, there's things over here and they'll help you be good at that over there. We weren't good at that 25, 30 years ago. We changed. So that's the other thing. When they're highly talented, like anything, figure out what they're best at and help them use that to get better at the things they need to, to work on. The last thing I'll say is don't be, be direct in feedback cuz they're darn smart. Everyone can spin everything. So I think the more clear you are, the more direct, might be painful, but if you really come from a place of caring and their growth, it's okay.

So you survived in this consulting world for 37 years. What is it that got you up in the morning and got you excited to go to work?

Two things really. I did, I did in the early days, I'd really love trying to make a difference with the client. And for me, and thank heavens consulting shifted from that 8-week thing to we like to be there a full year and help get it implemented and all that, not doing, but make sure it really gets done. That inspired me to get it. Done. If it had just been 8-week study after 8-week study, I wouldn't have survived. I would've quit. That's just me. Other people would've been fine. But for me, I think back on that and it was really even then the people, the client people, not the client institution that I really got inspired. I like friend, had friends. And then the other thing for me for 37 years is I love, I did leading and managing. So I loved leading teams, leading BCG, helping to grow.

Satisfying to see young people come in and watch them develop their potential.

Yeah. And I, when I ran North America, you can believe this, 70% of the staff were under 29.

Wow.

Well, it's a young person game, as you said. And yeah, but that's pretty inspiring to get up and be around 29-year-olds when you're 60+. It's pretty inspiring. Or at least you stay awake and on your feet.

Exactly. Exactly. So Joe, what do you think it is about you personally that made your whole career so successful? What did you bring to the table that nobody else had that allowed you to be successful?

I think, I think two things. One that my mentor always point out to me is I was quite good at knowing what I don't know and knowing what skills I didn't have. And then along the way, the humbleness to acknowledge that and then surround myself with people who were really good at those things and then collaborate very well. Where I learned how to collaborate, that was probably just a lot of experiences. I didn't wake up one day and say, oh, That was for sure my main superpower, as they say, highly collaborative and understanding. And I don't get everything. The other thing I think worked well for me is I had experience and I'm very sorry, this is a little bit about me, but I'm rather authentic and I could even be vulnerable. And I had experience along the way. My parents got divorced at 8, really bummed me out. My, I cried through my wedding and it was interesting too. I cried through my vows. I was so embarrassed, 23-year-old guy who cries at your— but the number of people that came up to me afterwards, oh, that was so wonderful. The love in that church was amazing. I didn't process then, but what was going through, what happened is authenticity inspired people. Then my mom died when I was 30, and I of course cried through the entire, with the 3 sons through a shiitake, and I cried the whole time. And there the priest said, Joe, tears are the fountains of love, so it's okay. And I got the same feedback. All these people come up, oh, that was so wonderful. So here I was embarrassed both times, and I didn't process at the moment.. But the message was, wow, now you can cry at a wedding. Don't cry all the— or cry at it. But wow, if you bring your authentic self and show emotion, people wanna follow you. They're inspired.

And I, it's so interesting that you're saying this cuz first of all, I completely agree with you. And second, I'm working on my fifth book on leadership empathy.

Oh, well, there you go. Okay.

And I'm talking about, I just was editing a chapter yesterday talking about how to be authentic and vulnerable. Without being weak and kumbaya, right? Yeah. And so there, and there are ways to do that, which I talk about in the book. And obviously you mastered it. And I agree with you. Most people don't know that I was born with severe disabilities. I talk about that. I, I didn't used to talk about it, but I talk about it now. And people can relate when you're able to share stuff that you've been through, the pain, and suffering and discomfort that we all go through. And we've been trained by culture not to show it because it makes us weak. Actually, it actually makes us strong.

Yeah. And we've been trained by the old culture, Jack Welch. And Jack's a fine guy, but with the Jack Welch culture, or even more, no, that's the worst. Or the IBM, you're just a cog. IBM's a better company now. It's changed. Remember white shirt, blue suit? Uh-huh.

I remember.

Those days are gone. They are gone. Now, doesn't mean go cry every minute, but your point about bringing your humanity is so essential.

So one of the things I noticed, I think maybe it was in your LinkedIn profile, is that you were really, you really did a lot of diversity and equity and inclusion work at BCG, which I think is fantastic. I'm curious about what your take is on the rooster in Washington.

Yeah. Well, no, that would be—

No, that's exactly what I would say. Don't get me started.

Yeah. Yeah, I just think if we wanna really go there, I think we're, it's an interesting state in our country that I keep every morning I wake up and say, sorry, I'm gonna go to this. What can I do? And I've started writing every congressman and senator in any places I have an address, cuz they won't let you write to 'em if you're not a natural, or my kids live and everything. But it does, you got, of course you could donate money to causes that align with what you might believe. But it's a tricky question. Now on the diversity thing. It's just stupid.

Sorry.

It's stupid because you—

I agree. Don't, you don't apologize to me.

All the data says the most diverse team performs better. All the investment—

That's right. And all the evidence shows that. There's a whole bunch of different reasons.

Yeah. And bankers proved it. So these aren't like nice, they're nice people. They said it drives better numbers. And the reality is it's a diverse set of work humans that are going to do the work for you. There ain't enough white males, if that's what you're into, or black females, if that's what you're into. There's not enough of anything to make it work.

Right.

So the data says it's great. So I think the thing that's— what I try to do with your question is there's a lot of noise over there and there's some unfortunate to very unfortunate to sickening things happening. Same time, if you're in an organization, you know, you need diverse team. You need them to feel like they belong there. You need them to grow and develop. You can do that in spite of all the rhetoric over here. And you can hire the people you need to hire in spite of all the rhetoric over here. You might— I know some people are changing some labels and maybe you have to, you're not getting attacked constantly. But I don't think the real, I don't think the good companies are changing what's going on inside. I agree. They can't. And I don't think, I think the good ones actually wouldn't.

I teach a course at Pepperdine, graduate course called Decision Making Under Stress and Uncertainty. And one of the, we talk about how do you make good decisions under stress and uncertainty and incomplete data.

Yeah.

And where the out, the stakes are extraordinarily high.. And one of the things that, one of the steps is to make sure that you have as many diverse viewpoints talking about the problem as you possibly can. If you look around the room and everybody looks like you, you got problems. You got problems. And I just can't, people that don't understand that is that it's, they shouldn't be in charge.

Yeah, I know. And the second piece of that, which I should in your class. I have two other pieces in my mind. One is even when you build the diverse team in your room, then make sure you ask questions of all of them.

That's right. Don't let anybody not talk.

Yeah. And listen to what they say. Don't say, oh no, I already know the answer. So whatever.

That gets— that's exactly right.

And that's pretty damn easy to do. We know as leaders, I got the answer.

And right. No, no, you've gotta, you've gotta— everybody has to have an opportunity to talk and you, and as I'm teaching in this book that I'm writing, it's how you ask the question. One of the things that I teach by example is never use an I statement.

Yeah.

Never say I, always say you. Yeah. And focus on the other people.

But that's so funny because I remember over the years there'd be leaders or people would say, and I just would instantly turn off. And why don't you just say we? That's right. It's not that hard to say we.

Exactly.

Turn off.

It'd be even better you.

Yeah. But if it's a team doing things, hey, how are we gonna get there? That's okay. But if you're not high, how am I gonna get you there?

Right, exactly.

The other thing on your class, you probably say, is of course when it's that intense, you never have to make an— it might be times you have to if you're in a war or something. You don't have to make a decision on the spot. I had one friend said, Joe, try— if it's really tough, just sleep on it overnight. One, it may go away. Two, a good answer may emerge. Or three, then you start suddenly. And that's hard to remember. So I got the answer, you just wanna whip off the thing.

Well, and the problem here goes to a basic problem. People feel an urgency to make a decision because they're not managing their own unconscious anxiety.

That's interesting. Yeah.

And because they're— they'll do anything to get out of their anxiety. They'd rather make a bad decision and get rid of the anxiety than rest, sit with their anxiety, and make a good decision.

Yeah.

So part of what I teach is how do we manage— how do we manage our internal emotional state around difficult decisions. We got a few minutes left. Talk to me about listening. You're obviously an excellent listener. How'd you learn how to listen?

You have a good mentor, beats it into you over and over. Wait, because he would always be so good at, you'd say, did you ask this? Oh shit, I didn't ask that. Do you know this? Oh no, I don't know that. You know, that was a very good lesson. I can tell you a couple of thoughts. One thing, one thing I used to say to my teams, engage the skeptics and uncover the nos, which is a version of what we said about And cuz usually the knowologists, 1 out of 1,000 might be a pain in the neck. I don't even know if that's true. They all know something. It might be this little, but that thing is critical to the best answer. And if you don't find it out, shame on you. That's one thing is just always be probing the people that, hey, that's not a good idea. Oh, why? The other thing, and then I just think it takes some humbleness is, but I'll actually, it's just nobody has all the data and all the information. And I've never met a single leader that actually believes they do. They might make decisions faster than other ones in the amount of data they collect. But as long as you remember that, which is not easy if you think you have all the answers. And then, but I think the other thing you said is you got a great set of people. The other thing to do is think about, okay, who's in the room? Who am I with today? And where are they coming from? And I know that takes a little bit of time, but think fast. You're a smart person.

Right.

And then probe on, hey, you're in finance. What is the finance team thinking about such and such thing? Or, hey, you grew up in California and I'm in New York. What do the Californians think about? I don't know. Find something about their lived experience or their background and just probe. It's— and then, as Alex— I'm sorry, Alex Gorsky once said, it's not your job as a leader to have the best answer in the room, it's your job to get the best answer out of the room.

Exactly correct.

That was a nice simple thing to remember. No, all I care about is the best answer coming out today. Whoever has it, more power to them. Absolutely. Wow.

Well, we're about out of time. One more question, Joan, I'll let you go. I know you got a busy day in your summer home up there in Minnesota. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

I like to meditate. I'll pick that.

There you go. I started meditating when I was 18 years old.

I started later than that, but it is quite good. Not many people think regular old white males, 60-plus years old, meditate. So that's probably— except for my friends, no.

No, no, I mean that the contemplative practice is something that's very important for providing balance. And whether it's meditation, or I'm a I was a martial artist for many years, secondary black belt, tai chi master, doing tai chi as a contemplative practice or meditation. I think it, it's a, it provides a balance to the fast-paced cognitive process that you experienced as a consultant. And I certainly experienced as a trial lawyer for over two decades.

I agree. Well, yeah, when you, I was going to say, when you were saying about make the whole decision-making process and The anxiety. I thought everyone just meditated. They'd be able to work through that.

Well, I think, and part of the job of a leader is to recognize that anxiety and manage the anxiety of the group.

Of themselves and the group. Yeah.

Heifetz. Do you ever run into Joe Heifetz at Harvard? He wrote Leadership Without Easy Answers back in the mid-'90s. Talked about—

Yeah, I remember the name. I didn't run, I don't know him though.

Yeah. So he talks about the three functions of leadership: focus, direction, and safety. Those are the 3 psychological functions of leadership. And part of that is all managing group anxiety. So really interesting stuff. I could talk to you for hours, Joe.

I know we could go on. You get my brain processing.

I really appreciate our time today, and I know that my audiences just love you too. So thank you so much.

Thanks, Doug. This is a lot of fun.

Absolutely. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.