339 - Designing Success: The Intersection of Creativity and Leadership in the Hardware Industry with Hapny Home's Priya Vij

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Priya Vij, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder of a company called Hapni Home.

Yes.

That's spelled H-A-P-N-Y. And the website of course is hapnyhome.com. I'm really fascinated about your journey. And so I'd like you to just take a few minutes and give us your backstory.

Yeah.

We'll get into what makes you tick. Cool.

Sounds great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to chat today.

Of course.

A little background about me. So I am from Houston. I went to undergrad in New York and pursued journalism and economics, and then I worked in fashion for a little bit, and then I went and got my business graduate degree in Austin, went and worked at Nike, and just did a whole different bag of things moving around the country, exploring different roles and functions. And then right before COVID hit, I started to toy with this idea of starting my own business. And I actually grew up with my dad owning his own cabinet hardware company, and that company turns 40 this year, so it's very much been part of my life. Ever since the very beginning and actively avoided doing anything with that for as long as I possibly could until late 2019 when I started to think about hardware a little bit more seriously and started to form this idea of starting my own brand and company in the space.

And that's how it started. Yeah. So you had a journey of being in corporate for a long time.

Yes.

And lots of different roles in corporate. I know you were with Nike for what, 5 or 6 years?

Yeah, about 5 years.

Yeah. And some other companies as well. What'd you learn in corporate that kind of motivated you to go out on your own?

Yeah, it sucks working for someone else, honestly. I think it, it's just really hard. I think what it comes down to and what it really pushed me over the edge that I'm sure is not unique to a lot of people who end up then doing their own thing is just wanting more control over my day-to-day, both in terms of how I structure my hours for my personal life. Also how I structure my hours for my work life, but then also those micro details of control of just having more autonomy and understanding why I'm doing things, why I'm prioritizing things. What are the things I'm prioritizing? What's the bigger picture? Why is this a fire drill? Why is this not a fire drill? There's like little day-to-day things and I worked at incredible companies, but they are huge. So I was like very much part of this larger hierarchy of a big workforce. And so a lot of those smaller details just weren't necessarily something that I had visibility to. And over time that just started to chip away at what am I actually doing? How important is what I'm doing? I don't understand what's going on. And just wanting to explore that deeper and having this ability to just call the shots a little bit more across all aspects of my life. And that feeling just kept growing and then ultimately pushed me over the edge.

And, and you became an entrepreneur.

Right.

So you picked a really good time to start a business, huh? 2019. I know.

I know.

The only other time that could have been better was 2008.

True. True. So we don't know. And right now it seems like a really questionable time as well. So there's never a good time, but I think that's also a really big learning that will just continue to rear its head.

Exactly. Tell us a little bit about your company, Hapny Home.

Yeah, I'd love to. So Hapny, the name actually comes from Houston, Austin, Portland, New York. So it's the cities. That I've lived in and rented apartments in. And as I mentioned, I grew up around hardware, but a lot of when I was renting apartments and I was moving around in these different cities, I never really thought about hardware. I never looked at my cabinets as a renter and was like, oh, this is such an easy fix, which is— this is such an easy upgrade that even renters can do, which it is. But no one was really speaking to me in that world. And that's what I started to tap into more and more was this understanding of I actually have access to all this industry knowledge and information, and I have access in a really unique way to a lot of these products, but they're not really serving up anything that was that interesting to me. And so I started to look into that a little bit more, and I wanted to create this company that had a fun brand, had a personality behind it. A lot of hardware is really functionally sold and presented, and it's this very tactical detail. But, and it's also just a lot of really big companies that are super successful, but these sort of legacy brands that over time and over getting so large just lost a lot of the emotion and personality behind it. And being at a place like Nike, which is such a like emotionally storytelling focused type company, that's what I really started to dig into more. And I felt like there is this opportunity in the market specifically where there's super bespoke luxury hardware that's very well made, beautifully designed, but a really crazy price point, especially when you're thinking about having to buy multiple pulls and knobs for your space. And then there was a lot of builder-grade hardware out there, or like this more mass market hardware that wasn't as cute, it wasn't as design-focused, but it was a good price point, really functional, sometimes really questionable quality. And I felt like there was this great opportunity to serve that middle market where it's something that is really well and thoughtfully designed, looks pretty, feels nice, is good quality, good materials, and also not a price point that feels totally out of reach and inaccessible. Wow.

I'm— as you're talking, I'm thinking about the times in my life where choosing poles was really tough.

Yeah, it's very overwhelming.

And it is overwhelming. And trying to find something that's really— that, to your point, is— looks really nice, is durable and is reasonable was, I recall it being really difficult when I built my first house.

I'm trying to serve you, Doug.

That was a long time ago. Perfect. The perfect customer. So who are your customers?

Yeah, so I sell, I'm fortunate enough to be in over 200 showrooms, brick and mortar showrooms across the country, which is amazing. Continuing to grow that list every day. So a lot of those showrooms They serve designers, builders, architects. They also serve just the end homeowner that goes in there, because most of them do offer hardware as well as plumbing and lighting.

Right.

So if you ever find yourself doing some sort of major house renovation, chances are you're going to go into one of these showrooms. I also sell on similar online marketplaces that serve that same customer. I'm definitely seeing more interest from the trade, so designers, builders, and architects through those channels. Also just reaching out directly. I would say I definitely reach the end consumer, and that of course is my goal as well. But there's also a huge part of my customer that is just the trade.

And how's your growth been since you started the company?

It's been great. Knock on wood. It's been going really well. Thank you.

Got through COVID okay?

Yes. Yeah. And luckily hardware is one of those things where if you can't afford a full renovation and project, like when economic uncertainty hits, hardware actually ends up then being one of those more like budget projects you can do where it really does make an impact. So in some way we're protected just by the nature of what it is and how it serves. So we're lucky in that way. But I do think the industry itself, I launched at a, a tough time in the world, but an interesting time in the space where in the last couple of years I've seen a growing number of smaller hardware companies pop up, more bespoke hardware companies, designers making their own hardware lines. So I think it was just really timely for the space as well. There's this growing desire for something other than these huge legacy brands that have just existed for a really long time.

So are— do you do any design work yourself, or do you— or are you just source stuff from other designers and manufacturers?

So I actually design all of the products myself. So they're all— there you go. Yeah. And that's the intention behind it, is I continue to design everything. I have a partner at my factory who is much more technical, so it's a really great fit. I send them all of my word vomit and brain ideas and, and he helps me turn it into something really functional and technically sound that feels well. Yeah. But yeah, so they're all my designs.

Good for you. So how do you, huh? Such a, almost, I'm not gonna say paradox, but you're, here's a, a young woman who's very bright, was in corporate, has her MBA from UT, Undergraduate from NYU, obviously very intelligent and analytical.

Thank you.

Where'd the creative streak come from?

I have always had it. I think it was always simmering and I, it's funny to think about my life backwards in that way cuz I never really tapped into it other than in more of my free time or like a personal, personal exploration, I guess I would say. Being in New York for college and a few years after was really pivotal to just exploring that more. I think that's what helped me understand, just like being— having access to those museums and the art scene and the community and the culture there just really helped me realize that's something that I care about and I pay a lot of attention to. And so I think it's been this undercurrent of my life, just in the background all the time. And then especially as I was thinking about— I was hitting my limit in corporate and like exploring professionally what I would want to do. That's when I started to realize that I had this thing that I could tap into that didn't have to just be professional, but could also touch this like creative side of me personally that has always been there.

Wow. Exciting.

Yeah.

For you.

Thank you.

What is it that gets you up in the morning now and gets you excited to go to work? Ooh.

Honestly, I feel part of it is stress. Like I can no longer afford to not get out of bed, to be completely frank. That's like the one thing is who do I put on my out of office? There's no one. So like that luxury of corporate world for better and for worse is gone. So whether I wanna get up in the morning or not, I get up in the morning, but I thankfully have really wanted to lately. I think there's just this general— I'm working so much more than I ever did in corporate, no surprise. And the stakes are also so much higher and really daunting and scary. And that's always just this kick in the butt that I have there. But I don't feel anywhere near as burnt out as I did when I was working in corporate and that in and of itself is enough. I'm not— there are days where it's really hard to get out of bed, but just as like a human and in life, like, it's not like it's fully rosy. And there are days that are really scary and I'm stressed and there's a lot of heavy stuff going on that I'm balancing. But I just think I feel— I really believe in what I'm doing, not to sound cheesy, but I love what I'm doing. It's super fun. It's tapping into these different aspects of my life that just feel really right. And I feel like I'm on a path that just feels good. And so that, that helps. That's what gets me up.

Wow. Good for you.

Thank you.

So what do you think it is about you personally that makes you so successful at what you do?

One thing that, if I may call it my superpower, that I've always been told in corporate, that I've always felt that I think just really helps me today in this role is that I am always a person first. Life always comes before work. And so I, I'm not one of those people that kind of— there's people who compartmentalize and who they are at work is someone different than who they are in life, and they set the boundaries and they show up differently. I've never been that way. There are things that help me because of that, then there are definitely things that hurt me because of that. But that's just always consistently been true about me, is that I'm the person first. We hang out, We shoot the shit, like we talk and then we get to work. And that's something that I still carry through today, even in my own company. And I think through that, I just naturally have such deep connections with the people that I work with across all different aspects of my work. And that doesn't translate directly to, oh, that leads to this percentage increase in sales or this, I can't directly tie that to a business metric per se, but I just think it makes the work feel a lot more authentic and it makes every interaction, like if I email someone, I'm going to get a response. Like we know each other on that deeper level. So a lot of the just like deep connection truly exists there. And I think there's just so many immeasurable ways that then pays off over time. And it just feels a lot better when you're talking to people that you like, and it just makes the work a little less like work. And so I think that ability to do that in a really authentic way, cuz again, I'm not trying to do that on purpose. It's not like a strategic move. That's just really the only way that I know how to operate, I think has helped pay off more than I expected it to.

Is your company remote, hybrid, in-person? How are you?

It is so part— I'm based out of Houston right now. Okay. And I'm actually using, I'm sharing my dad's warehouse. So that was a huge reason that we came back to Texas. Was to operate out of the warehouse. So we have that space and that's where my inventory is. So I go to the office every day. That's where I'm pulling and packing the orders. We have a couple of guys that also help in the warehouse that are incredible. So working with them and then I have to split my time either in person at the office or a lot of my time is actually on the road traveling, meeting these showrooms, talking to the sales teams, pitching new accounts. So it's a little bit of everything.

And when do you have time to do design work?

All the in-between. So design work happens everywhere. You'll catch me at like a restaurant fondling the hardware at the entrance. I'm like always, that's the fun thing about hardware and the overwhelming thing sometimes is just that hardware at the end of the day really can be kind of anything. Like you can put together whatever you want for all intents and purposes and just stick it on a cabinet. So there's endless inspiration. So I, a lot of the travel, just being out in different spaces, of course, being in the showroom. Room, seeing what's going on in adjacent categories like lighting, furniture, all of that. There's a lot of inspiration there. And just constantly, like, I have my sticky notes with me at all times and my pen, and I'm just constantly, like, drawing things. I'm taking pictures with my phone. The design work happens pretty much all the time.

Always, always on.

Yeah, it's exhausting, but it's fun.

Huh. Let's pivot to listening for a moment. This show is called Listen with Leaders. I don't know how much you know about me. I'm a lawyer turned peacemaker, and I teach listening as the foundational skill of life and of leadership.

Yeah.

In fact, my next book's coming out next year on leadership empathy. I'm excited about that.

It's a very important topic, and I fully agree with your point of view. So I love it.

Tell me how you became a good listener.

I think I became a good listener by learning from people who were not good listeners.

That's a good way to learn.

Completely.

The hard way.

Yes. So I think a lot of, again, I've worked in corporate, I've been in different types of large companies. I've been exposed to lots of different stakeholders and types of leaders. And I just think people leadership is something that is, to be really frank, sorely lacking. And I can, I worry getting worse. And so I think that just general, like people leadership, empathy, listening, there's a lot of that just has room for opportunity. And so I think. Feeling really low in my corporate environments has led to me trying to— I'm constantly trying to self-reflect, and that's like a big part of my life as well, is just like thinking a lot and overthinking a lot. And so I'm always trying to reflect on why I feel a certain way or why an interaction made me feel a certain way. And so I do think slowly over time, exposure to just situations that sucked, honestly, and didn't feel good and didn't feel right have helped me. Understand then how I would want to show up differently. And now I have this cool opportunity to actually do that and put it into practice.

And how's it working for you when you being conscious—

Yeah.

—aware of how you're presenting yourself and how you're leading people and how you're listening and all these different skills that make for great leadership, how are you seeing people respond to that compared to what your experience was in corporate?

I get positive feedback that makes me feel like I'm on to something that feels good. And so I think in my role, I work with a lot of men and I work with a lot of older men. I'm generally young for the people that I'm interacting with in this industry. And so there is a bit of proving myself that I need to do in these situations. And I also think sometimes people don't take me as seriously. I'm very bubbly. I'm very— I talk with my hands. I'm very like out there and fun. And so I put that personality out there. And so I think there's a lot of just of that, like expectation setting and just trying to understand how people are perceiving me and then how we're gonna go into a business interaction. But I just think that I've gotten feedback from men who I work with who are like older, like a couple years, a couple decades older than me, who have just said that working with me is really fun and makes them excited to go to work and makes them like look forward to doing this job. And again, this isn't necessarily like you've helped increase our sales in the area over X%, but that to me is really meaningful feedback to where I'm like, okay, we're connecting again on the human level, whether it's through listening, whether it's just through seeing each other. And again, like building that relationship, I think they're all related, but just getting feedback of, oh, you make working really fun and I'm in my 60s or my 70s even, and I'm saying that this is like re-energizing me, that's really positive validation. The guys at the warehouse, we like joke a lot. I don't— they don't necessarily like joke with other people, but then when I'm there, we're like cracking jokes with each other. We just have— there's like this element of just comfort and fun and showing our personality, and we're not sitting in these square boxes of like boss and employee or sales rep or showroom manager. That I think the blurring of those lines is positive feedback to me that The way that I'm showing up is helping people also show up in a more honest, authentic way.

I think that's amazing. How do we bottle you? How do I feel this way every day?

I'm saying all this knowing that's my pinnacle, that's my North Star, and I try to do that as much as possible. But of course there's some days that are just off. But that, of course, that is like the— that's the best feeling. And I'm just being able to do that.

And what you're talking about is exactly what I wrote— I've been writing about in my next book. And that is that we The job of the leader is to motivate, inspire people to be their very best. Yeah. That's the end of the game. And you do that through a whole bunch of different things, create psychological safety, listen to others into existence. There are a whole bunch of things you have to do that most leaders don't even think about. And I'm curious, you've had a lot of experience in corporate. Why do you think it is in corporate that the kind of attitude that you've developed, learning in corporate, this really sucks, they're coming out. Why is it— why do you think it is that you don't see leaders in corporate embracing the kind of things that you've learned and that you're living now?

It's a really good question. And I wonder it too, because I do think there has to be— part of me wonders if there's something about size, like size of corporation obviously has to play a role. I think this can only exist for so long in the stages of growth. And so I've gone into companies really late in the game in terms of their growth journey and just like revenue journey and everything. But then I see it at small companies too. So I always wonder because the stories that you hear in the news are always the bad ones and the bad culture and you find out all these things and everything's awful, but I don't feel like there's as much coverage of good companies. So I'm trying to understand how it happens and I really don't know. I think it's a really good— I think that there's part of it too. That I think, again, this is not specific to just how we show up as leaders, but just how we show up generally, that going through hardship, it sounds cheesy, but I do think like just having that perspective and going through hardship in any capacity, whether it's in your personal life, whatever that actually looks like, but going through something that then gives you the perspective to put, at the end of the day, this is a job. Like I even still feel that way about my own company. At the end of the day, these are just pieces of metal that we're selling to people to to put in their homes. If I want to strip it down to its bare bones, that's all we're doing. So therefore, everything else in life, everything in your personal life, everything should trump that within reason. But that's a scary thing to admit as like a business owner, because that's like a scary business philosophy to carry, because then of course people can take advantage of that. And as when I'm looking, when I'm wearing my business hat, the business should come first. But kind of what you're saying, the business falls apart if the people within it don't feel inspired or don't feel connected or don't wanna show up. And I've been that person too, where I'm like, if I'm getting bullied by my leader, like bully type leadership, I think completely backfires when people are there to be scared. But that's like the wrong type of incentive. So I just come in with that. I've been through stuff in my personal life that really just at the end of the day, my family comes first. My personal life comes first, even as a business owner. And I don't know that everyone has experienced that. And sometimes I do just feel depending on the person that gets into that leadership role, and you also don't know what they're dealing with from above them, right? I'm interacting with my boss. My boss has 3 bosses above them. And that boss at the very top, I'm sure is feeling so much pressure that I can't even begin to touch on. And everything is so important and everything's on the line and it, then it just feels like an impossible task. Like, I don't blame them. I don't blame the person feeling the pressure and then that trickling down.

And I don't know, it seems to me, it seems to me that if, if you're grading on your, on performance, even on analytical metrics, KPI, like sales or production or whatever it might be, whatever your quantifiable production is, that if you focus on your people The people are gonna— the people are gonna produce because they wanna produce because they're happy. And they following the— you're a leader that everyone wants to follow. They're gonna just naturally excel. And I, and, and just a lot of leaders, I just don't think that— I don't think they get that.

But I also think what you're touching on is really interesting and true is that no, that's not like a KPI. And I think it can't be a KPI because inherently that betrays the spirit behind it. That's right. But I think because it's not a KPI, then it's It's just not a pri— it's too easy. Not important. Yeah.

You go back to that. Yeah. You go back to the old management theories of the 1970s and '80s. Yeah. If you can't measure it, if you can't measure it, you can't fix it.

Yeah. It's too fluffy for a ri— for the rigorous analytical business metric. And it's, even though I do think it's more important than all of them, and I do agree.

And that's not to say that the rigorous analytics aren't important. They are. Absolutely. Absolutely. Having said that, we're working with human beings. And today, here we are in the 21st century, we're living through a really chaotic time right now. Absolutely. And personal relationships become more important than anything else. And I think that the hardest job of any CEO or leader is instigating human behavioral change. And, and you just can't tell people to change. You've got to motivate them and inspire them in the way you do. By coming up, by being present and authentic and not taking yourself too seriously, but having the critical analysis and the quantitative analysis, everything you need to run a business and find that balance. And I'm, I'm, as I consult with people and I just don't see much of that going on.

And it, it's sad in a way. Yeah. It's sad. And I also get it because again, like, I'm like, I don't, it's, I'm very, I feel very lucky that I have the space to so consciously show up and do it. I know that there is a future, hopefully, where if I continue to grow, and I'm already starting to see it versus when I started a couple years ago to now, I'm busier. There's more on my plate. I feel more urgency. I'm already starting to see how I'm starting to show up a little less frequently, say. And so then I can only imagine once it starts multiplying, like it's, you're, it's a losing game. But you're scaling.

And so the secret to scaling is finding really good people. Yeah. Who are super smart and do follow, have your values. And yeah, here, this is your job. You take it over and get stuff off your plate.

It's hard to find those people though.

I know. See, or you find them and you, you have to develop them.

Yeah, absolutely.

You find people with the right attitude and maybe they don't have the skillset and you have to develop the skillset. Yeah. But every single person I've talked to on this show that talked about successful scaling talked about finding really good people. And let it— they're smarter than you are. Yeah. Do their job. Totally. And then that allows you to be your natural self and you have less on your plate that you're concerned about cuz other people are handling it and you're just watching over the whole thing and you're still creative and you're still bubbly and you're still authentic and show up as a great leader. Yeah. That's the secret.

That's so true. That is, that's a good secret. That's the truth. I think the people— I remember at Nike we used to have, I think that I resonated with was one of the biggest questions that you would consider when you're interviewing someone is, would you sit down and have a beer with them? And I think some people take that the wrong way as like, why is that even important? But I, it speaks to this spirit of like soft skills and that personality. That's something that you can't really teach. And at this point isn't gonna change. Hard skills anyone can learn.

You'd be surprised how many soft skills you can learn. That's true. Do you know where that term came from?

That's very true. Yeah.

You know where soft skills came from? Where? United States Army Training Command in the 19th century.

Really? I never knew that actually.

They don't. I write about, I have a whole chapter about it in my book that there was a guy by the name of Franklin, General Franklin, and he was tasked with trying to understand what made a battlefield commander successful in the battle space. Mm-hmm. He was able to identify hard skills like driving a tank or shooting a rifle versus soft skills, which are all the leadership skills we've been talking about, emotional intelligence. Being able to listen, motivating people, all that stuff, everything we're talking about. And he coined, he called, he did, he called, he made the term soft skills to differentiate it from hard skills. And the, the military is the absolute best place to learn leadership. They, whatever branch you're in, they start from the time you walk in through the door, you're learning how to lead. Totally. Corporate is not that way at all. And they, because of a whole bunch of reasons that I talk about, soft skills is a pejorative in business. And And yet those skills can be learned. The military teaches them and they can be taught. Yeah. Just like listening. And so the whole thing is just really crazy. Yeah. I think the problem—

You're totally right. You're totally right. They can be learned. They just require prioritizing. That's right. Yeah.

You need— And courage because to be authentic and to be vulnerable and to be present requires a certain self-esteem, self-worth, courage. To be who you are. Yeah. And not to be worried about the slings and arrows that might be coming towards you.

Absolutely.

And that's a hard thing for people to accept because they've been told since childhood emotions are bad, emotions make you weak, be the rugged individual. So all this crap. Totally. It gets in the way. One more question. I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself, Priya, that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

I don't know if you maybe would pick up on it, but this is always, it catches people off guard, is that kind of what you're saying. I like to be be very authentic and vulnerable and be honest and put myself out there. But I am very sensitive and I'm like a little bit self-conscious and I overthink. And as much as I have my exterior that feels very confident and be yourself and just put yourself out there and everything's okay, I am like the first person to get offended and overthink and shut down in a room sometimes too.

Are you an introvert?

I am absolutely an introvert. Yeah. I describe myself as an extroverted introvert. That I think is the best. Yeah.

I am, I'm an introvert. Yeah. I would say that 98% of the leaders that I've interviewed on this show, which is now well over 3, almost 350, 98, 90, 95% at least. I can't even think of who were extroverts. They're all introverts. Interesting. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah, that is really interesting actually. Yeah. Because I think stereotypically, if I were to guess, you would expect it to be an extrovert. Not the people that I've interviewed.

Hmm. And the people that show up on this podcast, almost everybody is— I'm an introvert. I'm very successful in my career.

Totally. Because you're very successful.

But don't— introversion means that I find energy from inside myself. Yeah. And at the end of the day, the last thing I wanna go at is to go out to a party in a bar and party. And totally. I hate that. But an extrovert would say, hey, let's go. Yeah.

I can't, I can't. No. And I think that's where I catch myself being like, if I was more extrovert, like the networking events and— Right, exactly. And it's so important, especially for the stage of the business that I'm in, I really need to be doing that, but draining. It's so draining and daunting and I show, and then I like, you're an introvert. I know. And then I'm like, I don't even wanna be here. This is actually hurting my brand because I'm not showing up. I'm gonna go home. Exactly.

You got it. You got it. There you go. Don't feel bad about it. It's great. Take advantage of it.

It's a good— thank you. Thank you for the validation.

All right. This has been a really great conversation for you. Thank you so much for taking time.

You, I love talking about this. I can't wait to read your new book.

All right, we'll talk soon.

Take care. Thanks.

Bye. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnoell.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.