343 - Unlocking the Power of Deep Listening: A Journey to Connection with Emily Kasriel

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Emily Casriel, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You're not my normal kind of guest, but I got fascinated by your work. And so I just had to have you on the podcast. You are the author of a new book. It came out in May in the UK and June here in the US called Deep Listening. And since you are an expert in listening, you have a background in broadcast journalism and some academic stuff, I just thought it would be fascinating to learn more about your work. So thanks for taking time out of your day. I know in the UK it's the end of the day for you and welcome.

Thank you so much. Delighted to be here, Doug.

Great. Let's start off with a little bit about who you are. Your background and what led you into listening, and then we can talk a little bit about your book and get into the stuff that you teach.

Okay. So I have been at the BBC for many years as a reporter, editor, media exec, and I led a big season across the whole of the BBC radio, TV, online, English, 40 languages, sports, education, kids, documentaries, news, all about getting my colleagues to tell stories of engaging across difference. And it was through that I became interested in deep listening. On the side, I've also been an executive coach and also a workplace mediator, an exec coach accredited for over a decade. So it was all of that made me become more interested in finding out about listening, and I started doing research first at LSE and then at King's College London. And then I wrote this book with HarperCollins, Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationship with Family, Friends, and Foes, in order to share the work more widely and try and get everyone to listen more deeply, not only to the people most intimately connected with them and their colleagues, but also with strangers, even if they disagree.

Absolutely. That's why I got so interested, because my fourth book is called De-Escalate: How to Calm an Angry Person in 90 Seconds or Less. And my fifth book, which will be coming out next year, is all about leadership empathy, all around listening. So why the term deep listening as opposed to just listening?

I think the way that most of us listen, we are actually performing the act of listening rather than truly deeply listening. And actually what we're doing is we're preloading our verbal gun with ammunition ready to fire, to use a term coined by a theologian. We're looking, waiting to interrupt and to tell the person why they're wrong or to solve their problem that we think they're telling us about, or to cheer them up, or to just assert our dominance in a conversation. And that's the way we normally listen. And so I use the term deep listening in order to distinguish a very much more profound way of listening and connecting.

So when— let's just dive into it. When you are teaching people how to engage in deep listening as opposed to every other kind of listening— actually, before I do that, So this is very close to what I talk about. I talk about Type 1 listening and Type 2 listening. Type 1 listening is what you just described. Type 2 listening is reflective listening, where the agenda, the listener's agenda, is to make sure that the speaker feels heard and validated from the speaker's frame of reference. And to do that, I teach reflective listening, and there are 3 types of reflective listening: mirroring, perforate, Let's see, now the three that I teach are paraphrasing, core messaging, and affect labeling. So I'm curious, tell us a little bit about your deep listening skills that you've developed and that you teach.

We have come up with an 8-step methodology that I outline in 8 separate chapters of the book, and that is after I lay out why we need deep listening both as individuals and for society, and the traps that stop us from deeply listening, as well as actually showcasing an example of deep listening in So the 8 steps are, first of all, create the space and think about the environment which makes the person feel psychologically safe, physically more able to listen, both light and sound, and also even cherished. And I've done a lot of research with Japanese tea ceremony practitioners and other places in the world in order to create that. Think, think very carefully about the perfect place. To have a conversation that matters. And I should emphasize that deep listening is not for every conversation. If I was to ask you if you wanted a cup of tea and then you were to reflect really profoundly on that, I'd probably throw the tea in your face. Deep listening is for conversations that really matter, whether at work, at home, or in our communities, or outside. So step 2 is about listening to yourself first, because you can't really be in a place to listen to someone else unless you've had some time to acknowledge what's really going on. What is your unnamed agenda? What are the shadows which leap up from your mental basement and overcome you? Because what we do, of course, is if we find somebody particularly irritated— irritating or threatening, it's often because we're projecting either another individual on that other person, somebody we've had a difficult relationship with, that's often in our childhood, or parts of ourselves that we don't find acceptable. Maybe the other person is not very generous, and it's actually an attribute of ourselves that we don't feel comfortable with. So if we see it in another person, we get angry with them. Step 3 is about being present, because so often we're distracted, of course, by our mobiles, who just allure us with that shiny black screen, even if notifications are off, but also by the stuff going on inside our own mind. Am I going to be able to get home in time to watch the big game, huh? Step 4 is about curiosity, is about assuming we don't already know what the speaker is going to say, because we're all in the process of becoming. Your speaker is not the person they were last year, last week, or perhaps even last night. So imagining that we don't already know what they're going to have to say allows us to be curious, and from curiosity we can develop empathy and then respect. And also all the time being aware of our judgments that we're making about the speaker the speaker and then temporarily putting them aside. We can never not judge. We are instinctively— have evolved to judge in order to keep ourselves safe. But becoming aware gives us choices and options. And step 5 is about the gaze, because there's so much research around the power of looking somebody in the eye, but not actually face to face. Face to face is why, in our call that we're recording this podcast, is actually great if we want to fight or kiss, which is not for every occasion. So face to face, not ideal. 60 degrees, far better. But the gaze is important, and then there's a lot about reading the body language of the person speaking. Actually, gestures, not that efficient. Facial expressions, pretty bad. You might be smiling, but that's not because you're happy about something I've said. You're about to nab that last doughnut from the plate, so that's why you look so happy. Tone of voice, far more reliable, says the evidence. Step 6 is about the power of silence, and it's not a kind of horrific, cold, extractive silence, surprise It's about a warm empathetic silence that allows a person to think thoughts they've never thought before, and also allows you the listener to make sense of what the person has said. And that's important for step 7, which is the reflective practice, to reflect back what the person said. Now it's not just the words, it's also the notes between the words, the noise in the room that you feel is actually, actually what the person is thinking and so critically their emotions, because I know you've done this in your research, that's evidence that unless people feel their emotions reflected back, they don't feel heard. And it's fine if you get these things wrong, you offer them iteratively for the person to dig deeper. And that's why step 8 is about be going deeper, to try and uncover the person's deeper narrative, their needs, their motivations, and their values.

Okay, 8 steps. So let's pivot to empathy for a second. Do you have a definition for empathy that you use?

I don't have a strict definition, but I consider empathy about imagining for a moment the way that the other person sees, feels, and experiences the world. And This is always a— we can never be someone else, we can never truly know what it feels like, but we can imagine what it feels like in order to connect with them. But we need to do this with boundaries, and I write— I have a whole chapter in my book about the ethics of deep listening, both to protect us and the other person, because the other person might share more than they actually had originally intended, and we might hear more than we can comfortably bear. So having boundaries and knowing when it is safe and not safe to deeply listen, it is critical.

Let, let me give you my very specific definition of empathy and see how it lands with you. So I define empathy as the learned ability to assimilate, interpret, and reflect back the emotional experience of another human being.

I think that's a really interesting definition and certainly encompasses a lot of what I imagine to be empathy. But I think we can also be empathetic without actually reflecting back. I think we can use empathy in lots of different ways. So that's why I perhaps wouldn't use empathy in quite that way.

Interesting. The reason that I have that definition is because without a specific definition of empathy, it's one of those words that people float around and throw out without really understanding what it is they're talking about. So another example is social justice. There's a word that people throw around, but if you ask them to give you a definition of social justice, they're absolutely incapable of doing it because social justice does not have a definition. In the, in my, I come from the legal background and social justice does not fit in any of the 12 categories definitions of justice. And it's just a word out there, a phrase out there that people use. And empathy is the same thing. So I teach people how to de-escalate. Anger by listening to emotions. And when you engage in that process, you engage in, in cogni— what is known as cognitive empathy. And then that leads you to develop automatically affective empathy, which is what you're talking about. I would describe the ability to feel the emotions of another person as affective empathy. And some people are highly sensitive and they can already do it automatically. In fact, it overwhelms them. And other people, it's a skill that is just developed with practice as they practice cognitive empathy.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that people can develop, and a lot of people are hesitant to go down this avenue because they don't feel that comfortable talking about emotions. They might not be that in touch with their own emotions, let alone someone else's. So encouraging people— and I've got lots of tips in my books of particular things to look out for when they're reflecting back, to include the unexpressed feelings. When I train people, and I've trained over thousands of people in over 100 countries, I find that often when they reflect back, they begin by just encompassing the spoken words before trying. They need more practice to encompass also the meaning, both expressed and unexpressed, and the emotions. It does take time. I completely agree.

I can actually teach people to master the 3 types of reflective listening in about 8 weeks, an hour a week for 8 weeks. We, I've got, I started really, I discovered all this stuff in 2005. Lieberman's study came out in 2007, and then I began the Prison of Peace Project with my colleague Laurel Kaufer in 2010. And from 2010 until 2020, I spent time in maximum security prisons training life and long-term inmates how to stop prison violence. And the foundational skill was listening. And ultimately we trained them to be mediators. And we found that we could make it— these people who had no skill at all, that's why they're in prison, could actually master listening in about, in about 8 weeks of practice.

That's really exciting.

And that's been my experience on the outside too. Uh, when I— Michael Meitz typically can master these skills. Everybody thinks it's really hard. It's a little hard in the beginning because it's counterintuitive and counter-normative, but once you get it, It's really easy. And it's just a matter of doing it enough to get over the hump. So you can start to practice it. How do you help people develop the discipline to do all 8 steps that you're talking about? Because that does take a lot of discipline to be—

Yeah, I mean, I, when, you know, and I think it's helpful, actually being able to read it in a book because you can touch back and forth, but I'm very non-prescriptive. I don't believe that anybody, everybody has to do all 8 steps all the time. I want people to play. I want people people to have a much more playful relationship with deep listening, and they experiment with using different steps in different situations, and then go back and try something else. And when you can train people over a period of time, like you did with the prisoners, I find it's very effective because they can try stuff. I set challenges, but it gives them the opportunity to try different things and to give feedback and to be open. And trying to set a— and it's really important for me that for listeners who are trying deep listening, that they don't feel this is a prescriptive 8 step complex thing. It's more about different avenues that they can explore in order to have deeper listening engagement.

I like that a lot. And that's it, you play with it and practice with it. That's the most— it's pretty easy to describe for people how to engage in good listening. It's not so easy for them to go out and practice it.

Yeah. And that's why whenever I train people, in a way you say, how do you convince people? It's about being listened to themselves. And that's what's one of the things I've recommended in the book is read the book and then lend it to a friend so you two can be deep listening buddies and practice together.

I do the same thing.

Yeah, it's an opportunity to practice deep listening with somebody else, which is fantastic if you're trying to think through challenges or even prepare yourself to have difficult conversations and let the other person act as the person you're frightened or angry to talk to. And that allows you to really practice a difficult conversation earlier if you can train a deep listening buddy or they can read the book as well. And that can be very effective. Effective and powerful.

Do you find that when you're teaching deep listening, that this is a process that has to take— go over a period of time? It's not like you can walk into and do an 8-hour workshop on deep listening and expect—

yeah, I mean, I think you're quite right. But what I have found is, even because I've talked to a lot of conferences around the world, for example, and even in an hour and a half session, as long as people can get a bit of practice in there You can say one or two things that start to awaken someone's mind and to realize the possibility that they can listen in a very different way. It's almost the, one of the most important kind of breakthrough insights I think for many people that I've trained is the idea that if they listen, they don't have to agree.

That's exactly it.

Because many people associate listening with agreeing or with obeying. And therefore, because they don't want to agree or obey abhorrent thoughts or practices, they stay away. And I encourage them to break the link between these two ideas. And so it is safe to listen to whoever. Now, I've also got a whole thing, as I said, on the ethics and the provisos of when you don't want to deep listen to somebody, if they want to manipulate you, if they want to put on social media. There's a whole host of things where you don't want to do it. But in principle, I believe that we can deeply listen to anyone as long as the conditions are right.

I agree with that. And I particularly agree with what you just said, which is to say that that if we take the time to really listen to each other, we don't have to agree. The need— most people's need is to be heard and validated, not to be agreed with. And here in the US, of course, we're going through this massive mess in politics. And I tell people, if we can just learn how to listen to each other, we'll find that we have far more in common than we have in indifference. Take away the power of the politicians who gain power by dividing us through fear and manipulation and take the time to listen. And we don't have to agree. I teach a practice on how to have a calm conversation with a politically polarized, 4 questions that you ask. And the whole point of that is not to try to persuade somebody else that they're wrong. It's to listen, to understand why they have the beliefs they have. And when you do that, you find out that you may not completely agree with what they say, but you value what they— you value their values are oftentimes can be very similar to your values, just expressed in a different way.

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

So let's— I'd like to, I'd like to do a demo here. So how would we go about demonstrating?

So let me ask you, Doug, let me ask you a question. What food reminds you of home?

What food reminds me of home? Are you talking about when in childhood, or are you talking about now? Anything, wide open. The food that reminds me of home is— because I'm the cook in the family— is beautifully prepared and presented food of all different types from all over the world. That's organic and natural and flavorful and cooked by my own hands and served with love to my friends and family.

So I'm hearing quite a lot of pride in the food that you yourself have chosen from organic ingredients and beautifully prepared and presented and served to your friends and family. It's— that is the home the values that are important for you to create and share?

Yes, exactly. It's a way of— for me, cooking is a way of getting instant gratification. So much of my work, I don't see the end results, right? So when I can do something like cooking, a couple hours, and I can see the results of my labors, and that's very satisfying. And then to have other people enjoy the results of my labors too is even more satisfying.

And so I'm sensing it's a sense that it's immediate gratification. You do it then and there. You're— it's very creative for you, what you are physically doing with your hands and creating the mixtures and the cut and the image and everything together. And then there's the second stage of having a a sense of pride of people around you partaking in your creation, which really gives you a lift.

I think that— I don't think it's so much pride. I think it's being satisfied when people start eating and they say, wow, this is really amazing, that I'm happy that they're happy. I don't feel so much pride in myself for what I've done. I feel satisfied that I'm help— we're sharing an event that is making them happy and content and connected.

And so you don't feel so good to be associated with Pride. It feels a little selfish and self-inclined for your understanding of yourself, but more this is about other people and their enjoyment, and you're taking joy in their enjoyment. That's important for you.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say that my cooking is something that generates pride in— there are other things that I do that generate pride inside of myself, but cooking is not one of them. Cooking is an expression of connection with friends and family and love that, and when I see people connecting because of the food in front of them and the wine and everything, that, that gives me a deep sense of contentment and satisfaction.

And so it's less about achievement and pride in achievement, which you might have in other parts of your life, but more about creating something which allows, creates connection, creates the conditions for other people to enjoy and connect with the food and with each other around your table. And that's, and that's in a way you communicating your love for them.

Yeah, exactly. Very good.

Yeah.

So tell us what you were doing or what you were thinking about, what you're processing through all of that. I know what you were doing and you were very good at it, but for those who are not like us, skilled in this sort of thing, what was going through your head as you were listening?

I was only asking one question, what food reminds you of home, rather than as a journalist, I've got loads of questions. I could have said, you've come up with lots of generic things. What actually, tell me something in particular. 'Where is your home?' or 'How many people do you have around for dinner?' or 'Do you have a family?' or 'Is this friends?' or— there are a lot of questions that I could have asked, and had I done so, I would have taken you down my track rather than leave you to go down what's important for you. So I didn't ask questions, I just authentically tried to use my third ear, my unconscious, to tap into what was going on for you, and I got it wrong. At one point because I said pride, but that's okay because I offered it with humility. I didn't say, so you feel proud on this, in which case you go, no, I don't, and get annoyed with me. But instead, I offered it with humility for you to say, it's not this, but it is that. And it wasn't pride, it was more love, and it was different from your other sorts of achievements. So I had made an assumption which was wrong, and that's okay. And I was trying to sense-make. We really use my third ear, just sense make what was going on for you as you prepare and share this food with others? And what is, you know, what, yeah, what's important for you there? And I offered that back and it allowed you and the feelings that you have around that and allowed you to express yourself with silence, giving you time to unpack your thoughts and also for just the what you said and the way you are being with me, even though it's virtual, to allow to unpack and make sense and offer that back as a gift for you to go deeper or make more sense of it.

That's exactly right. I would— and I'm reflecting on the fact that you exemplified my definition of empathy extremely well. You were able to read, assimilate, interpret, and reflect back my experiences from my frame of reference. And that is pure empathy, what you were doing. And for those that weren't watching, Emily did not ask any questions other than the first question. All she did was reflect on what I was talking about and what was really underneath my experience. While you were not doing direct ethic labeling, you did a little bit, not ethic labeling in the way that I teach, I still felt that you were really listening to me. And at one point I said, exactly, which is one of the, that's one of the neuroindicators that you've been heard. There are 4 autonomic relaxation responses that people engage in when they've been heard. And that first verbal response is That's the first indication that somebody's really been listened to. Really interesting. Good job. Nice. So if people want to reach out to you, how do they go buy the book, Deep Listening, buy it, HarperCollins. So I imagine it's available everywhere, bookstores, booksellers of all types, including Amazon and Barnes Noble and everybody else. If people want to reach out to you to learn more about your work, how do they find you?

They can follow me on LinkedIn. They can go to my website, which is my name, emilykazriel.com.

That's K-A-Z-R-I-E-L.com.

S for Sierra, R-I-E-L for Lima, emilycasriel.com. And they follow me on LinkedIn. And I've got a lot of articles on my website about deep listening in different contexts and about journalism as well, because that's my, one of my backgrounds. And I'm excited for people to read the book and to practice it. If people only read the book and don't practice it, that's a waste of time. They need to really embody it and practice and play with it in their own lives. And what's so great is that they really can transform their relationships. With their kids, with their partners, with their parents, and with all sorts of people in their community and at work, of course. And it's not so hard. I think I have a lot— I talk to a lot of artists and a lot of really inspiring individuals, as well as stories of when I saw President Mandela listen, or when I failed to listen when I went to interview the president of Ethiopia and he just cut short the interview early. So a lot of times when I've got it right and I've got it wrong, and a lot of great insight from fantastic thinkers, psychologists, academics, lawyers, and all sorts of people. So I hope it's a great read. And I also illustrated it.

Good for you. You have a beautiful website. So I encourage everybody to go to Emily's website, emilycasriel.com. And thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it, Emily.

You're very welcome, Doug Noll. Lovely to meet you and to listen and to talk with you.

Thank you. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.