344 - Building Trust: The Key to Successful Succession Planning in Family Businesses with BlueRoots' Tammy Buss

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional, and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Cami Buss, welcome to Listening with Leaders. I've been on your podcast a couple of times and now I get to reciprocate. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks for the invite. It's odd to be sitting on the other end of the mic.

There you go. You, you're from Canada. And we kind of work in the same basic fields, working with family businesses. Tell us a little bit about your background.

So my background is actually in the financial services industry. So I worked with businesses for the past 35 years, helping them with their employee benefits, making sure their shareholder agreements were funded, saving for retirement, for education. So all the financial elements. And as my clients were aging, my career was changing that the help was more around Okay, how do you prepare for exit? And so the last 10 years I've really been focusing on helping my clients plan their exit from the business and their succession to the next generation or to a third party, to their employees. It was really about what to do. And so when I looked at my own issues, that I looked, I said, geez, in business, not to grow a business, but basically to pay the bills. And then lo and behold, I look back and I'm like, I've got this business now that I need to figure out. And I hadn't really talked to my family about it because it wasn't— I didn't really consider it a family business. And that was my aha moment to go back and get a little more education on the family, the dynamics and complexities of family businesses. So the last 10 years I've been really focusing on helping them plan their exit, had them all ready financially. I've got the trust and estate stuff down pat, but what I didn't have was to help them have that, those soft conversations. Financially, they're all set. But when I look back now, I'm thinking, yeah, we had it set financially, but we didn't have the emotional set, right? And that was— and when I went through it myself, which is when I said, wow, there's really nothing out there to help us first generations.

That's right. It's amazing. So for how long have you been working with family businesses now?

I started my career back in 1985, and what I started with was individuals who were self-employed. They were young like me. And so, I can say my whole career, but we didn't think of ourselves as family businesses. In fact, we probably didn't think of ourselves as family businesses till we're in our mid-50s. But I've been working with self-employed individuals who ended up having employees and then actually growing businesses that so started out as one person that fast forward, some of them are hundreds and hundreds of employees. Some of them are still 10 or 20.

Wow.

So I can say my whole career, really.

Yeah. And you've grown up with these people, all grown up with you, and you've grown up with them.

Absolutely. And I think that is the part that I morphed with them. So back when I was in my 40s, my clients were in their 40s. They were going through divorces. So I went back to school and got a degree in financial divorce specialist. Not that I could be the financial divorce specialist, but but so that I could work with their advisors because I've always been very collaborative and I had a lane. And if I was going to talk to their advisor, their lawyers, or their accountants, then I need to be able to talk the lingo and to understand why they needed what they needed. It's always changed and morphed. So I'm an exit planning— I got an exit planning degree and it's— I'm not an exit planner. I'm not going to get your company ready, but I just know when you're talking to M&A companies, when they're asking for things, I can help you understand why they're asking for that.

So you've been doing it, you mean you've been working since '85. That's a long time.

I know, I know. And I'm so young.

I know. I've been practicing law for 47 years.

It's scary stuff, right? I look back and I go, holy moly, I'm too young to be this old.

Exactly.

And obviously you have a lot of energy. What is it that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to do your work?

Can I say that old cliché is that if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life?

Absolutely. Because that's the way.

And that's really what happened. But I can say it wasn't always like that. I can tell you when it started. It started just after I went into the insurance industry and I actually had 2 death claims and they were about 18 months after I started in the industry. And when I started policy peddling and I was just there to make money, I was not there for a career. The company I worked for went bankrupt and I just needed to pay my bills. But I had these two death claims early on, and one was a 25-year-old in a car accident with no kids, and his beneficiary was a sister, and she became a pharmacist without a student loan. The second one was in their 30s, early 30s, jumped out of their boat just from not far from shore in the spring and died of hypothermia and didn't have enough insurance because I policy peddled. I said, here's $25,000 sold the policy, not the need. And then I immediately went to need selling. And after that, it was something I loved and loved to do. But what I found as I was growing in age and stage, that my focus changed. And because I was going through it at the same time, I was very passionate about it. So when I transitioned my own company, the first one, I was the same. I was the same thing. I was like, I need help. And so I'm very passionate about it because I actually drink my own Kool-Aid. Yeah, I'm there to help. So when I'm struggling, excuse me, when I'm struggling, I know that other people like me are struggling.

And so how can you help them?

Exactly. I've got the relationships that have been many years, and I've always worked on referrals only. So I'm not out marketing saying, hey, we're the best, because I think if you do a good job and you love what you do, it comes across that you're there to help.

Absolutely.

And people then gravitate to you because you're there to help. You're not there to sell. You're not a one and done. You're not gone. In fact, this morning I had breakfast with a client I've had for 32 years.

Wow.

And I said, I've been there. I've been longer than any other female in his life. In fact, because I'm much older than his daughter.

Oh, okay. There you go. That's funny.

I like to tell people, families, you've got me now. I'm your family peacemaker for life, right? Yes.

Yes. And so because I've been there from early on and it was on the financial side, they had the, I guess, the trust in me early on to help guide them and again, work with other advisors. And so financial isn't just investing or insurance, it's planning, it's budgeting, it's looking at businesses, it's all sorts of things. Anything that had a number attached, I was there for, and I'm still there. The knowledge doesn't go away, although my time is now spent with, okay, let's have these conversations because I know how hard they were to have with my own kids because I hadn't done it. But once you're in a second or third generation, it's expected that you're talking about a family business. Most of my clients don't even think of themselves as a family business. And I'm sure it's the same with you.

I'm a sole practitioner, so I don't even think of myself as having a business. I provide, I teach and I help people and Sometimes I get paid for it and sometimes I don't, and it's all okay. The most important thing is that I'm helping people stop fights and arguments in their lives forever. And that, that's what keeps, that's what keeps me going. Tammy, I'm curious, when you look back on 30, 40 years of work, very successful, what is it about yourself you think that's allowed you to grow and mature and evolve and be as successful as you are today in helping other people?

I think it goes back to the fact that I want— what I'm providing is what I want myself. I want someone to care. I don't care how much money somebody has at the beginning. Like, I dealt with people who had $50 to invest because I wanted to be treated— there's a potential here. I wanted people to help me regardless of who I was. So that's how I started my career, was helping. You're self-employed, I can help. You got no money, I understand, I have no money either. And then it becomes really just continuing to help them and that they deserve the best that they can get. And when you're dealing with large organizations, they'll have their own rules and guidelines that as an employee you can't get around. I can get around whatever I want because I'm my own boss, like you. I can take on a client, I can say no to a client, and I really spent my time working with people who wanted help and would follow the advice. Because if you don't want— I don't— I'm not like a bank or a large company that someone walks in, I have to take them on as a client. I wanted to actually like you as a person. And let's— how can I help you? And if we have to change gears many times to get it right, no problem. But we're there in it together, and I'm not going away. So, it's not like your banker that you walk in and there's a new person there and you got to tell your story over again. So, it's really just, I just want to do what I would expect. And I find that service has dwindled over the last 40 years. It's all about sales and not about keeping the client, working with the client, developing relationships that are long-lasting past one generation.

Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, I don't know what's happened. I think technology is part of the problem, but we could get into a long discussion about that.

Yeah.

So let's pivot, pivot to my passion, which is listening. How you learn to become a good listener?

You know what, at the beginning I probably wasn't because I was really just peddling policies. I was selling. But once I had those death claims, and again, this is a long time ago, it shifted me to really start listening to what the client was saying, what their true needs were, not providing the solution before I knew what their problem was. So I think listening was, again, not something that I would have considered as listening. I would have really looked at it as solving a need, but it really comes down to listening. And I'm talking not just listening, but hearing what they're saying because people can listen and not hear.

Right. Oh, absolutely. Or they can hear and not listen.

Yes. It's really a combination. And I think that was, that was the, that was, I think, the big turning point for me. And I, and that's why I think my role as an advisor And then the evolution to family business advisor was listening and hearing that they're struggling with this side and there's really nobody to help because lawyers come at it from a protection, trying to mitigate risk. Accountants come at it from a tax perspective. And other advisors don't have the time or the training to spend talking to the client and understanding what they're trying to get at. So like you, I'm trying to just get them aligned and I'm trying to listen to all these different people in the room and try to get an idea of really what they're trying to accomplish and get them on the same page so that you can then talk to your other advisors about, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Yes, nobody wants to pay tax, nobody, but sometimes you're going to have to pay a little bit of tax and give up maybe some control in order to get what the entire family wants. But if you don't explain that to the other advisors and come up with a solution, you're going to get the same old, don't do that, it's going to cost you money. Don't do that because you're going to give up, you know, you're not going to have control. But what is it you really want? And that's why I think that a lot of my clients were caught in the middle, that their advisors were butting heads. One was saying one, one was saying another. So they did nothing.

Yeah, they got stuck.

They got stuck.

So when you listen, when you're listening to your clients, what are you listening for? Multiple levels of listening. What are all the different levels that you're operating at when you're listening?

That's a very complicated, very deep question, isn't it?

Hey, look who you're talking to.

So it's really not just about the words and or ticking a box and saying, do you, yes or no? Yes. It's about really sitting in front of them, looking at them, seeing their body language, their pitch, their tone, the words they use. The words are very minor. Could people go, "Oh yeah, it's fine. It's just fine. Fine." But you could just go without saying anything. There's so many things that become part of that. And it's not just the person you're talking to in the room, it's really looking around the room because you can see the eye roll, you can see the slump. So it's almost like you have to have eyes, you know, be like a fly with those big eyes that go all around the room. You need to see everything because you can't just say you're listening or you're watching. It's honestly, you have a bazillion things going on. And you have to be really mindful because if you get a few people sitting back, okay, now we got to take a pause and say, okay, let's just take a step back and is there something you need to say? So, one of the tools I use, and I don't know how you do, but one of the tools that, or I really, I guess we call them housekeeping or ground rules.

There you go.

What are— how are we going to have these conversations? How are we going to— we're going to go around the room and let everybody have their piece, like, nobody— how do you want to do this? Because everybody's a little bit different, but I don't want people jumping over top of each other. One person speaks at a time and then go around, whether you're holding the baton or whatever. Everybody gets to have their piece. Once everybody gets to say their piece, then you can start to have more of a discussion again, but you're holding the baton or whatever it is that you want, the pencil, the marker or your hands or whatever it happens to be. And I found that is the best way to do it from my perspective. If there was another way, I'd love to do it, but I just try to keep them from not talking over each other and that everybody has a say and everybody can be heard. Again, you might not be listening, but let's talk about what the different opinion was on that topic.

Yeah, let me give you, let me give you one thing you can add to that. You got the great, you got the process down perfect. Listen, call it a listening circle. In order to talk next, you have to earn your turn, and you do that by summarizing and reflecting back what the previous speaker just said.

Oh, I love that. I love that.

You have to earn your turn.

Turn your turn. I love that.

It's really powerful. And you can do it, you can do it, you can go as deep as you want. It could be just paraphrasing. What do they say with their words? But you could also have them validate emotions. What were the emotions that were being experienced by the speaker when this— and that's the affect labeling part. And when you're dealing in more intense conversations, that's when this really pays off. I love that because it slows everything down. Everybody has to listen and everybody feels heard.

I love that. That is a really— I'm going to use that immediately.

Of course.

Immediately. I love it. I love— that's a good thing because we do go around the table and they do figure out how, and they do decide if they wanna do one by one or hand goes up and everybody gets a chance. But I think that is an amazing way. So let me dig a little bit deeper into that. Let me be the one on the other side.

That's okay.

So you can earn your turn. So you are validating or paraphrasing, summarizing the person who spoke, summarizing whatever the person— it was just the person before you?

Yep.

Okay, so if you're 5 in, you're not doing the whole conversation, that you're just doing the person who spoke before you.

You just make sure, sure that the person who just spoke feels heard and validated, and every— the whole room hears it, right? Everybody?

Yeah, yeah.

So it becomes powerfully reinforcing.

That is an amazing tip. Thank you so much.

Of course. So this is a great process when you've gotta have, when the topic is more difficult.

Yes.

And you wanna slow, you got the key in conflict is to slow everything down, slow the conversation down. And so the ground rules I use, by the way, in these situations, number one, one person speaks at a time without interruption.

Yeah.

Do you agree to summarize back and earn your turn?

Oh, I love that.

Both the words and the feelings of the person who spoke before you. 3, you agree to speak your own truth from your heart and your mind. 4, you agree that you're going to be respectful. The words you use, your body language, and your tone of voice are all going to be respectful to the room, to everybody. And 5, the process is going to be fair. If anytime you feel like there's something wrong, it's not feeling fair, you bring it up immediately. And we'll deal with it because what would be really unfair is for us to have this conversation today and for me to leave and walk down the street and somebody say, you know, that guy Doug Noll, he was pretty unfair. That would be unfair to me.

Mm-hmm.

So that's, those are the 5 ground rules that I use in these situations.

I love that. My ground rules are a lot like, okay, cell phones off, off the table, like completely. Because again, you can, if it's not your turn, you're not speaking, I don't want someone glancing at their phone because that way you're not listening or being heard. And that's the hardest thing, like the hardest thing, I don't know about you, but it's the very first meeting. After the first meeting, it's fine. The first meeting is like negotiating.

That's right.

When the first break is.

That's right.

And how long a break do they get?

Right. I don't negotiate that. I dictate it.

Yeah. Oh, me too. Me too. But it's okay. So can we have a break after? I'm like, here's what we're doing. Exactly. You can have a 10-minute break. Go to the washroom, get a drink, do whatever you need to do, stretch your legs, check your phone, but they're off when you come back in.

Exactly.

And then now it's so funny because they'll go, Tammy, I didn't print out the material. Can I open my computer and have it on the screen?

I know. Uh, so one of the things that, as I'm listening to you and how you're processing with groups, one of the things that you're doing, and I don't know whether you're consciously aware of this, is you're creating emotional safety. Do you ever think about how do I create safety in the room for people to feel emotionally safe?

No, I don't. I don't. But I have had the comment many times that the families like me because I don't take sides and I'm not— so I'm not there to like what mom or dad or whoever, whoever brought me in. It's not like I'm on their side and I never really noticed. I don't know what I do, but I just know that I've had that comment before and I'm like, that's nice because that is my point. I'm neutral. I'm the neutral part. I don't care what your outcome is on what you decide to do. I'm just trying to get you aligned and on the same page. Because if you don't discuss it, and let's say it's a business that you are— the biggest issue might be the who's taking over, or owners versus not owners in the business, not in the business. And you do something that you didn't tell anybody, you can't fix it after you've passed. So even if they don't agree with what you're doing, you're explaining it now. So that you're not tearing your family apart after.

Yeah. And that's a really, that's probably the most profound advice you can give any business owner is don't screw this up because you won't care, but your family will.

And the, and you know, it's, people go, oh no, the kids are fine. They'll get, they get along. I don't care if it's $50 when you're not the person, you're the anchor, the glue, the anchor. Then who's the anchor? Yeah, we talk about that from a succession plan. There's a succession within the family. Who's going to take over? Because, you know, when Grandma passed, who, what aunt or uncle took over and kept the family together?

Who becomes the new leader?

Who's going to be that there? What about the succession within the business? That's an easy one. Who's going to take over if someone leaves? But then what does that look like from an ownership perspective and share perspective? So, each one of those circles has their own succession. And it's just as important to look at the family succession. Who's carrying on the traditions? Who gets the coveted recipe book that nobody knows the ingredients to? Go— some people like, it died with Aunt Flo because she never— Florence never told us anything. She always kept a, kept an ingredient out so it would never be as good as hers and— right, that type of thing. And so it's important to have the family understand that because you want that family. You're— no, no matriarch or patriarch wants their legacy to be that they blew the family apart.

One more question, I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself, Tammy, that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

So if you know me, I'm always dressed up, I'm always in heels, I'm always— but I am— I can my own food. I, I'm a knitter.

Huh.

So I'm— yeah. And a cyclist.

And a cyclist.

Wow.

Road biking?

Road biking.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

You just get out and pound out the miles, huh?

Get out and pound out the miles. I was up at 5:30 this morning.

Wow.

Yep.

Of course it's time to get to work.

So people think of me, they go, okay, so, you know, here's this woman who's always, always dressed up. From grade 9, I wore heels. Always in a suit, dress, like always professional looking. Nobody thinks that I can my own food. Nobody thinks I'm a baker. I'm a cook. You know, that I knit constantly. I'm like an old grandma. In fact, my son just bought me this best grandma pin and it's knitting needles and a ball of wool. Because I'm like the old grandma, always with a bag of knitting. And when I'm not knitting, I'm not working, I'm on my bike.

There you go.

So there's 3 things.

There you go. Thank you so much for your time today, Tammy. It's been really fun talking with you.

Thank you. This was fun. I appreciate it. You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.