352 - Rewiring Leadership: How Neuroscience and Emotional Intelligence Drive Real Change with Kristen Boss

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Kristin Boss, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You've had an interesting career background. Why don't you— we'll just start off with a little bit about your backstory. We both, before we started recording, we both were both Southern California kids.

Yeah.

And you went, you grew up in Northridge, went to Cal State Northridge. Yep. And now live in Colorado Springs. There is a story there.

Yes, there is a lot of story there. Thanks so much for having me on your show. I'm excited to be here.

Absolutely.

Yeah, there's a, there's a lot to my story, but I can, I'll keep it in bullet notes as much as I can.

Reader's Digest version.

Yeah. Reader's Digest version. I actually started as a hairstylist for 15 years.

Wow.

And I loved it, but I loved people. And when you are, I joke that hairstylists, I'm surprised we're not subpoenaed for all the information we know, the things we know, the things we know. But really what it is is 15 years of listening to people process and how they're making decisions in their life and those things. And I loved the people part of my job, love the creativity part of my job, but I also didn't love that I only made money when people were sitting in the chair. And I was, I was a nerd and I loved reading about marketing. I was, I I find marketing to be incredibly fascinating because I find it's where psychology and creativity meet. And turns out that was hair as well. That was psychology and creativity. I ended up generating a business where I was like, I wanna, I wanna teach people how to market in a way that doesn't feel gross to them, and I wanna help them do it from a, a psychology perspective. And so I just, I started sharing that and I looked at markets where I felt that were underserved. And so I saw the people that were underserved were people that were people trying to sell a product for work from home. There were a lot of stay-at-home moms that were just trying to make ends meet. And so I'm like, this market, a lot of them are retired, like former teachers, nurses, and they didn't go to school for marketing. And that was what, you know, at CSUN, that's what I studied there, business. And so I was like, how can I make marketing approachable for the everyday person who can't go back to school, but they need to understand the psychology of marketing and not look like a fool online? And so I decided to teach that and it took off and I built this online program and it grew and And from there was speaking on stages, wrote a book, and went from being this person that was like, hey, I can help you, to suddenly— I never ever in a million years would've said what I wanna do is I wanna run a company someday. But from the dream to— oh yeah, to reality is, man, it went from me being a solopreneur to suddenly I had 15 people on my team. I had to worry about profit margins and meeting our projections and all those things. And I'm like, I just wanted to help people. I didn't— a CEO. And I'll never forget one day when I woke up and they're like, how— I was talking to Dr. Benjamin Hardy and he's like, how you liking that? I was like, I feel like I'm playing the infinite game of whack-a-mole. Every day is a new problem and it's never one problem up at a time, it's 5, and some of them are on fire and I have to decide which ones I have to whack first.

That sounds about right.

So I feel like I— going— owning a company became a trial by fire. It wasn't something I set out to do. And I also saw a real Again, in my working with people and seeing so many people that I had taught strategy, I actually saw something else. And it was, I was being brought on to consult larger companies as I was working closely with the field and people in sales. And I was noticing that there was a common pattern with everyone I worked with. And it was essentially, I wanted to get to the root of why people had the inability to take action, necessary action towards their goals.

Procrastination.

Yes, exactly. Or analysis paralysis, overthinking, perfectionism, those things. And I'd be like, why do even the smartest people, can they be handled— handed a winning strategy, but they have the inability to act? Why is that? And then I started really understanding, bringing in neuroscience, human behavior, and essentially how we process emotions became the key to sustainable performance in the workplace.

You're talking my language.

I know, that's why I'm so excited to talk to you.

I know. Yeah, the Exactly. The, and what did you discover?

So I found out that most people are symptomatically treating the behaviors. They're go, we're very focused on behavior modification. So it's, oh, you procrastinate, just be better at time management. And they get organizers and planners and it's poor time management is the symptom of actually what's going on at the root. We have to understand like, what is your driver? What's at the core behavior? And so a lot of it is what I looked at was the nervous system response. It's like someone could be in a fight flight response in their everyday work environment.

So I was just like, threat responses. Absolutely.

Exactly. So I'm like, oh, this makes so much sense. We often think of fight-flight or the adrenaline-based response based in an emergency, but we don't think of like microaggressors on our nervous system. The email that comes in today at the end of the day, or an employee that's underperforming, or deadlines that aren't being met. Most people don't realize like that they're in a chronic fight-flight response in the workplace. And this happens huge with leadership. It's why they overstep, don't delegate. Those—

they don't— people don't understand that the brain responds to a social threat exactly the same way it responds to a physical threat, and we're not aware of that.

Precisely. Most people have no clue. So when I tell them, I was like, hey, your fear of rejection or being misunderstood, your brain receives, registers that pain, the emotional pain of that, in the same part of your brain that registers you touching a hot stove. So of course your brain's gonna be like, don't, do not do that, avoid risk. And so this is why we— and so I got really tired of watching people trying to symptomatically treat these things, or they try to be like, just do positive mindset and positive affirmations. You can't use logic to treat what's happening in your nervous system.

And that goes to a very important point: there is no such thing as rationality.

Correct.

We're 100% emotional. Everything we do is emotional— behavior, decision— it's all emotional. Rationality is a big lie that's been perpetrated on us for 3,000 years. We got to abandon that idea.

Yeah. And it's fun, I think it's because we have socially acceptable emotions.

Emotions are evil. Emotions are sinful. Emotions make us weak. For a man, emotions make you feminine. This is all a cultural bias that goes back all the way back to Plato, and it got filtered into the church through Augustine. So emotions are sinful, and we carry all that stuff today. And I think I'm really trying to change that trajectory of thinking. That's my next book on leadership empathy is all about this. But you're right. You're exactly right. And so how do you help people First of all, how do you get people to see the light? You— we see the light, but it's—

I'm not gonna lie to you, it's a tough sell. It's a tough sell in today's world where everybody is too busy, in a world addicted to chaos, right? People tend to want more chaos, and also we are addicted to fast fixes.

That's right, microwave society.

We are a microwave society, and learning to pause and slow down and regulate your nervous system, that's not something that leaders want to do, nor is it something that they're looking for. They're just looking for, I want to perform better, have better results, adults, everything's fast. And so when I actually teach them like, hey, in order to do this, we actually have to teach you to slow down, which in and of itself triggers a fight-flight response, right, for high performers.

They're like, I'm a secondary black belt martial artist and a tai chi master. And what's the first thing you learn when you study martial arts? Go slow to go fast.

Exactly. I'm like, fast is slow and slow is fast.

Go slow, go slow to go fast. Slow is fast. Slow is fast. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Smooth kills, but you gotta go slow to go smooth.

Yeah. And so in order to— I find what I'm doing now is this idea of bringing in nervous system intelligence and emotions into the high performance and leadership space. Like I said, it's, it requires a lot of education to get people on board, to get them to buy into it. And I find the people that are finally receptive to it are the ones that have had some sort of crisis blow up where the tools that they have resorted to no longer work, or let— they're not effective anymore.

And they're desperate.

They're desperate, unfortunately. And I even talked to a few, a few experts in this. I'm like, how do we get people before the desperation, before the crisis? And she's, welcome to the world of therapy, we don't know. And I was like, oh great. I was like, so how do— so there has to be some pain. But so a lot of education and then helping them understand, like, why you have to help them understand, like, hey, here's the symptoms, what's the root cause? And you really have to educate them about how the brain works. And so once you can get them on board and you help them spot their patterns— so we have the external stimulus, and Stephen Covey says this— between stimulus and resp— and, and response, we have a pause. We have the ability to pause. And teaching people to pause between stimulus and response—

we got about a half second.

Exactly. And helping people, A, spot their patterns, because a lot of times all of this is happening on the subconscious level.

That's right. So this is all programming, really good.

It's all wiring, correct? It's all wiring, and it's all— it was all formed from our childhood and our upbringing. And so it's wiring we've kept that has ensured our survival, but that very wiring is what limits us to our next level.

It's maladaptive now, correct?

So what used to be functioning— it's— I like to say there's healthy functioning, high function, and then there's over-functioning. It's when we take our— a healthy skill and we over-function, over- direct beyond our healthy boundaries. So it's helping people spot patterns. And then when we say, hey, what's the definition of insanity?

That's like doing the same thing over and over again, over and over again, expecting a different result.

So it's okay if you— by all means, if you want to stay in the cycle of insanity and keep buying leadership certifications, leadership training courses that all it does is adds to your logic and your insight, but your brain will never default to logic and insight in a crisis or stressful moment.

Exactly.

It goes— it defaults to your wiring, it defaults to your survival.

Exactly.

I'm still like, it's You and I, we've got our work cut out for us.

I know. I know. The thing that is so gratifying to me, and I'm sure it is to you, when people get it.

Oh, man.

And they understand, in my case, I teach people how to affect label, how to listen to emotions rather than to words as a foundational skill. When they get it, they say, "Oh my God, how come I didn't have this 25 years ago?" Because no one talked about it 25 years ago. Because nobody talked about it 25 years ago. But it completely changes their lives. I've transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, from people in prison to Congressional Budget Office analysts, where I've taught the whole possible continuum of people you can think of. And it's amazing to watch the transformation. I bet you've seen the same thing.

It's so rewarding and so fulfilling because what brings them to the work might be their leadership is at stake or their job is on the line or performance. That's might what brings them to the work. But it— how we do one thing is how we do everything in life. And so you become a more regulated, self-aware, emotionally aware, and emotionally literate person.

That's right.

This isn't just individual work. This is generational work.

That's right.

This impacts your children and their big time. It's big work. And, and especially if you were the first in your family to do this. Buckle up, man.

There are ways of— the way I introduce this is it's incremental, but actually I can teach people how to do the skills that I teach and then go and develop that emotional self-awareness, self-regulation, and cognitive empathy in about 8 weeks. It doesn't take long if you do the work.

Correct.

And you learn it. You got to do the work. It's like riding a bicycle. You can read about riding a bicycle all you want, but until you get up and get on that bike and fall off a couple of times, it ain't gonna happen.

This is— and this— okay, this— I'm so glad you're bringing this up, and that 8 work— 8 weeks is short, but you got to do the work, and it's highly possible. And this is why there's such great hope for everyone.

Absolutely.

Like, I don't care how old you are. I've had people that are 75, 80 years old come in and do this work, and they're like, I wish I had this 30, 40 years ago. I'm like, but you have it now. What a gift.

How do I— exactly, how do I turn a murderer into a peacemaker? I did it for 10 years. You can absolutely change.

There's this amazing thing called neuroelasticity where your brain can be rewired. It's the most There's hope. There's great hope. Like no one has known.

Not only that, but there's evidence. We have over 800 of our students that we trained over 10 years in Prison Appease in California, Connecticut prisons who were in for life, released on parole, zero recidivism. Not one of them has reoffended.

That just gave me— that's okay. Can we like, can you send something to Congress? Have you put in a bill?

That's beautiful. People don't believe it. They're like, we, they just can't believe it. They can't wrap their arms around, around the idea. That with a couple of counterintuitive shifts of mindset shifts, abandon rationality, abandon reasoning. They're tools. That's not the way we are. Correct. I'm not saying that there aren't tools there that we have to use, but it's not who we are. Get in your head that we're emotional beings. Everything we do is emotional, and then everything falls into place from there.

It's that— it's like that saying, you are not your thoughts, you are the thinker of your thoughts.

That's right.

And so once— but man, once you grasp around that simple thing, you're like, Oh, once I create a little distance from between my thoughts and myself and I'm able to assess those from a calm state, everything can change. And but like you said, you have to put in the reps. Rome wasn't built in a day. And this is a life— this is a lifetime of wiring and programming.

It's not that hard. I'm not asking people— I'm not— I'm asking people— I'm asking people in my clients, I say, you're going to work with me for an hour a week for 8 weeks, and then you're going to go out and practice for an hour during an hour a week for these 8 weeks. That's all, 2 hours a week. But you gotta do the work.

Yeah. And but the returns on it is the dividends on it for, are for life. Yeah. The clients we've worked with as well, they're like, everything is different. People from the most hopeless situations, they're like, I had no idea that this— I was like, man, this is the best work in the world.

Like, no doubt about it.

Yeah.

And it's—

and I will say also, like, this work has been— and I'm so glad how you talk about this because I feel like the emotional literacy, nervous system intelligence, that has been relegated to the, or isolated to the therapeutic circles. Like that's therapy, that's emotional work, that's those things where it's like bringing it into the high performance space is, we're still this pioneering work.

What's really amazing is this is not in the therapy place. My niece just got her PsyD a couple of years ago. Very established school. And I asked her, what are you learning about this, about neuroscience and about, to your point, neural intelligence? Nothing.

What?

Nothing.

Wow.

They're still doing stuff based on theories that are 30 and 40 and 50 years old that are scientifically unsupportable. I just shake my head. So part of it is there's just not enough of you and me out there. Talking about this stuff and getting people to recognize how important and how transformative this knowledge is. And the other thing is that neuroscience is pretty inaccessible. I got, I was tutored, lucky for me, I was tutored by John Allman at Caltech for a number of years on how to, as a lay person, how to understand brain scanning studies and all that stuff. And so I can read these journal articles and understand them. Most people can't. It's pretty dense stuff.

It is, but I could read it all day. I'm a nerd. It fascinates me.

I know. So it's up to you and I to study the science, figure out, okay, what does this mean? How do we put this into practical effect?

Exactly. And how do we make this, how do we translate this into plain language that is compelling for the everyday person?

That's right. Neuroscientists, they don't care about that.

No.

You could talk to a Matthew Lieberman, who's just a friggin' genius at UCLA, And the practical applications of what he has done in social intelligence is, it's mind-boggling. But you don't hear these guys out there applying their findings to practical real-life situations. It's up to people like you and me to do that.

Exactly. And I feel like there's so many places that's like scratching the surface. Like I, I love reading Harvard Business Review and I was reading about their psychological and emotional safety and they scratching the surface.

Oh yeah. Amy Evans and stuff. So I got a whole, this new, my book is called The Empathy Edge, How to Lead with Emotions for Transformative Change in Your Business. And I got it.

That's disruptive.

I've got, it is. And I blew up the theory, a myth of rationality, and I blow up active listening. I have a whole chapter on why never use an I statement when you're listening and blow up the whole active listening thing. It's pretty interesting book, but you're right. You listen to these people. And a lot of them talk about, this is what we found, but they don't talk about, this is how we change it. Or this is exactly how do you create psychological safety as a leader?

Or they're too busy giving— yeah, and they're too busy giving— again, I'm going to call them like symptom behavior modification frameworks that only speak to the logical prefrontal cortex of the brain.

Cognitive behavioral therapy, it's probably work there. There's actually a better process called dialectical behavior therapy, which is more along the lines of what we're talking about, developed by women up in Seattle. But we— Descartes was wrong. I think, therefore I am? No, I feel, therefore I am.

Yes.

It's our feelings that create meaning and reality for it. We can't make a decision without emotion, because ultimately, how do we know what's good or bad? Only by what emotions tell us is good or bad. It's emotions drive all our decision-making.

It's amazing how much resistance people have to this truth. And I'm like, it takes a little bit of— it's like, it's scary.

It's scary for them because I'm tethering 3,000 years of Western culture and we're just saying, nope, burn it up, go, it's no good, throw it away. And now, okay, so what is there? All right, we've got, we've gotten— this is where we have to start learning some new tools and some new ideas and some new ways of thinking. There's a whole other radical area And that's the whole concept of free will. And neuroscience, you talk to Sapolsky and all these guys, there's no such thing as free will. We're deterministic creatures. But tell that to people.

I'm like, that brain, that doesn't even support brain science.

It is totally supported by brain science, but it's, I guess the lesson is that science is telling us that we're not what we think we are. Science is telling us that we're something very different than what our subject, subjective experiences. We have a subjective experience of free will, but the reality is every decision we make is made 750 milliseconds before we're consciously aware that we've made the decision.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

And so we're not controlling our decisions. We think we are, but our decisions are being shaped by a myriad of— all of our programming, all of our wiring, programming, what's going on in the environment, all kinds of stuff. We think we're making choices, but we're not. And the beauty of this, and this something for you to think about. When you've got a client who's procrastinating, can't make a decision, is stalled out, change the environmental variables. Yes, change the environment, you change the behavior. It's not internal, it's external. So what do you have to do? What externalities have to change to get you off dead center? And maybe, for example, you stop responding to emails. Maybe you turn off your phone. Maybe you don't do all the Zoom calls. Maybe you just take a day off where you're going to just prioritize your work and do what you want to do and not get stimulated by all this other crap.

Oh man, isn't that the truth? It's like we're also an overstimulated society. We have less attention span than a goldfish.

That's right. I say a chipmunk, but it's the same thing, right?

Yeah, we have chaos, and you got—

and you've got all these young people addicted to social media, and it's just It's a mess.

Think about how— if you ever saw, what was it called, The Social Dilemma, or— can't remember what it was called, shoot. But it's just essentially how social media was wired to be a constant, never-ending dopamine feedback loop.

That's right, it was intended to be addictive. Yeah, Facebook has what— I don't know, they used to have— I heard somewhere, I don't know if it's true or not, but something like a whole floor of dedicated psychologists figuring out how to—

I'm not surprised by that at all. It's no different than— I think there was even a They still have this now, but they had, I remember Target, there being a psychologist, buyer psychologist talking about how they structured the front section of Target and how that dollar section actually increased their profits significantly because of psych— the psychology of the buyer. It's like leveraging psychology.

That's right.

Also, I'm like, okay, I have a big question to ask people.

Yeah.

I think this is okay in this having the responsibility of understanding like psychology, how people are wired, knowing how people purchase and buy. And oftentimes how business owners are like, the only way people buy is with urgency, scarcity. You have to have a formula. So like for me, I even just did a podcast episode called like the Moral Crisis of Marketing, being like, how do you, with people like you and I, understanding how the brain works, decide to serve the world more like ethically, by sharing your message without resorting to the— I'm going to call it like the marketing playbooks?

That's a really great question. And I'll answer it by saying that when Laurel and I were developing the curriculum for Prison of Peace, that was the exact question we asked. We're bringing very powerful skills into a prison population, mostly murderers in maximum security prisons. How do we know that what we're teaching won't be distorted and manipulated? And so we said, we don't know, but we have to do it because we know this is the only thing that works. And it turns out that at least in the skills that we teach, you can't do it unless you come from a place of authentic service. It will not work. And I think it's true in marketing too. I think that these skills, that listening other people into existence, learning how to listen to and reflect emotions, which are the basic skills that I teach. When you do this, a couple of things happen to you as a person. Number one, you grow emotionally yourself because you're developing your own emotional granularity. And number two, you're seeing the gratitude that people have when they feel so deeply heard and validated. And that gratitude puts you in a place of service. And so when you're— if you're in a business where you're It's not a sales conversation, it's a buyer's conversation. How can I serve you? You've got a problem, you're on a call with me, you've got something going on. How may I— how can I serve you? How can I help you solve your problem? How can I help you even define what your problem is to see whether or not there even is a solution? And when you come at it from that perspective, then the integrity problem doesn't arise.

That's so beautiful, I love that.

And if you come at it from a non-integrity, like all I want to do is make a sale, you'll make a quick couple of quick sales, but it's unsustainable. It's unsustainable for you and it's unsustainable for the clients. Yes.

I'm so glad you brought it to sustainability because that's why I tell people, I'm like, listen, unless you do it this way, everything—

Unless you're in integrity. That's right. It's not sustainable. You'll burn, you'll burn out and you'll, you're, the number of dupes you find out there will quickly shrink.

Yes. And I'm like, and say goodbye to your peaceful sleep at night. I wouldn't be able to sleep.

Me personally. That's right. That's right.

I can't do it.

That's right.

That's so good.

So where is your life taking you, Kristen?

My life is taking me—

oh man, where are you going? Where are you going from here?

Changing the world by helping people develop.

One person at a time.

That's one person at a time.

That's one person at a time.

It's just like one podcast episode at a time. I have, I have a, I have an online community, a membership where people can— it's for the everyday person that is okay, I'm seeing these patterns and I want to know sustainable ways to to—

where is your community? Is it on—

yeah, this is called— it's called Sondera. And so this is our new company that's about approaching high performance through nervous system intelligence and helping people.

How do people find that if they're looking for it?

Yeah, you can go to sonderalife.com and read more about us there. But what we've done is we've created a— essentially a nervous system mapping where it's like there's personality tests, but we actually help map how somebody defaults when they're experiencing stress. So we're like, this is where your nervous system defaults to, right? We have 10 different types so that people can understand Oh, these are my cues. This is how it shows up for me. Because you can't—

once you recognize your patterns, you can change them.

That's correct.

But if you don't recognize them, they're operating unconsciously and you're a slave to your programming.

Precisely. And then every person understanding their wiring, now we can give them tools that match their wiring. Because somebody that's prone to a fight-flight response or a fight response, they're going to use a, like, one tool, they'll run with it. But someone that has a— that's prone to a more freeze response They're not gonna, they're gonna look at the, a fight, somebody I would, a tool I would hand to a fight type and they would completely shut down.

That's right.

So it's okay. Everyone is wired differently. So therefore, how do we create a community that isn't a one-size-fits-all that helps people grab tools? And so it's not, I was like, the last thing people need is a course. The last thing that, because again, we're just adding, we're just adding knowledge that they can't implement. So I'm like, how do we create a membership where it's like, how do we help people take all the information and the insights they have? Giving them pattern awareness, but then we help them integrate that and implement that sustainably by doing it through nervous system intelligence and emotional intelligence.

Oh, how cool.

So that's our work and I love it and it's probably the great work of my life.

Good. Yeah, I know. And isn't that what's really most important is leaving a legacy of change and transformation?

Yeah. Otherwise, what's the point?

Exactly.

I built my first company really big and we could have gone off and bought land and chickens and been fine. And really we could have. And apparently, I don't know, when you you have a greater calling on your life, you can't do it.

Although I will tell you, I do have land, 10 acres, and I do have 6 chickens.

I'm like, still, we're still like in— this is newer, so we're still in like the startup era. So I'm like, oh Lord.

But you know, you can have— you can do service work and still have chickens.

There you go. Right now it's paint by numbers. That's how I'm regulating.

There you go.

Oh my gosh, this is so great. I— this conversation has been so amazing. I'm gonna have to have you on my podcast. I feel like episode 300-something, I think. So just, I just really appreciate that there, there is a strong man's voice speaking about this work. Cause I, I'll, man, when I was trying to talk to a few C-suite and founders about this, like the amount of resistance that came up to even the word stress. I was like, you have a stress response. And he's, I don't like stress. You can use pressure. Don't tell me stress. I was like, what? How, why do you think? I was like, you're a millennial. We are born stressed. What are you talking about? And he's, emotion, weakness. I just appreciate that there's more, that there's your voice out there helping create a safe, healthy conversation about that. This is, this has nothing to do with your masculinity. Absolutely nothing.

It has nothing to do with absolutely nothing. It has nothing to do with gender. It has nothing to do with gender.

Yeah.

It's all, it's, we're humans, we're hardwired for this. And we've unfortunately been, I can see for other reasons why this all developed the way it is, but we're past the need. To say emotions are bad. We're at a place now in our evolution where we have to start accepting that we are emotional beings, otherwise we're going to destroy ourselves. And we're way past living the rational life, way past that. Rationality's done nothing but evil for us. Anyways, thanks for the great conversation.

Oh, this was so great. I can't wait to have you on my, on my podcast.

Okay, Kristen, and if people want to reach out to you, where they find you?

They can find me on Instagram @thechristenboss, or they can check out sonderalife.com.

Perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast. Doug Noll, DougNoll.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. Suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.