85 - Strategies for Enhancing Organizational Impact and Success with Zen Media's Joel LeBendig

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional, and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Joel Levendig, you are the Chief Sales Officer for Zen Media, found at ZenMedia.com. Welcome to Listening with Leaders.

Thank you, Doug. Appreciate it.

So I know from interviewing you on Authority Magazine that you've got, had a really interesting backstory in terms of all the different companies you worked for. Why don't you give our listeners just a quick summary of your professional background?

Absolutely. Would be happy to. Yeah, I, geez, I started outside of, when I came outta college selling credit cards for MBNA Bank at a call center. Here in King of Prussia and proceeded to move into bigger roles there as a trainer, a sales manager, recruiter, and ultimately moved into positions with greater authority, not only there but at Euler Hermes ACI, which is based out of Paris, and then from there into the positions I've held at both Assurant and Community Company and now Zen Media. So it's been a steady progression of building teams that just outperform goals and do really, really well at hitting the mark for the companies I've worked for.

Tell us what the business of Zen Media is.

Zen Media is the go-to marketing and PR agency for B2B tech firms that are typically working with 7 and 8-figure companies.

Hmm. And what kind of services does it provide?

So we handle everything from a marketing and PR perspective. Really, it's about connecting the dots for our clients between marketing and sales, generating demand gen, increasing sales, filling that pipeline, and creating, uh, developing thought leadership for our clients' leaders at the top of their organization.

And, and in your role as Chief Sales Officer, uh, that seems self-explanatory, but tell us what your responsibilities are.

So my responsibility is to, to work both internally and externally, uh, internally with our teams to ensure that we've got the right processes systems and plans in place to give us rails to run on as we are working with those clients on the outside externally to ensure that we onboard them correctly, bring them, you know, work to attract them into the organization. And then once they've— we've begun a conversation, doing it the right way in a very consultative, strategic manner in order to help solve some of their pains and onboard them and continue to keep them successfully for years to come.

And so you have— do you have a sales team that works, works, uh, under you?

We do, yeah. We've got a few folks here that are part of the sales organization, um, both from a supportive role and an outreach role.

And, and you're the guy that's on top of that?

Yes, that's right.

Um, so tell me what gets you excited in the morning to get up and go to work.

What makes my heart beat faster is figuring out how to be better, how to do better, and to do that in such a way that it's impactful to the bottom line of the organization. What gets me excited— oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah, go ahead, keep going.

Oh, what gets me excited, I think, the most is trying to figure out the puzzle without having the lid to the puzzle box.

Not seeing the picture. You give it a bunch of pieces and you got to figure out how to put them together.

That's exactly right.

Yeah. Um, I know, I know that in our interview, um, you spoke a lot about emotional intelligence, which I'm very big about. And I'm just wondering, what are the things in life that brought you to the conclusion that about the emotional intelligence in leadership? I'm—

so what are the things? I'm sorry, ask me.

I was just wondering what What in your professional life as you developed brought— got you to the point where you recognized how important emotional intelligence is in, in terms of leadership?

So I think that, you know, working with different organizations that were organized very differently, right, from organizations like that have been very matrixed where you're working across different silos within the organization that don't seem to talk to one another, to working for traditional, traditionally organized organizations where you've got your traditional hierarchy. You learn pretty quickly that people that you are working with, that you're working for, and that are working for you are the key every single time to the success of that organization. And as such, you've got to have the intelligence and the patience to be able to realize that without those people, the business isn't the business that it is, regardless of the software, regardless of the IP, regardless of the thing that they patented, created, or do better than anyone else. Without the people, it doesn't work. And I think I figured that out very early on, on a phone selling credit cards to people across the country at 22 years old, that every, you know, each person we come in contact with ticks differently. Number 1. And number 2, oftentimes you do not have the insight into what's happening in that person's life at that moment in time. Whether you're at work and it's 3 o'clock and you're in a conference room with 10 other people, or you're on a phone call with a potential new prospect, you don't know what's going on in that person's personal life. And so you got to tread carefully, lightly, but again, have that understanding that there's more to what's going on than what's going on at that moment in time.

Tip of the iceberg, right?

That's exactly right. Tip of the iceberg.

10% of the top and above the water, and 90% below the water.

It's the truth.

And if you're not looking below the water, you're going to miss a lot.

That's right.

Maybe even wreck your ship.

Exactly right. Especially when you're full speed ahead despite the warning signs, right? Assuming that what's happening in your world is happening in everyone's world. You get this spotlight effect. And unfortunately, you know, without the right people in the right seats and paying attention to the right things in those people's lives, you can miss it.

So, so what is it that's unique about you that you bring to the table?

I think what's unique about me is that I'm high energy, passionate about what I do, what I bring to the table. And I'm not only ambitious, but I'm committed to the cause, right? Being ambitious and hungry is one thing, but being committed to do what it takes is another. And I think that separates me from 98% of the people that are in a similar role. And I think that's why I've been able to have success, right? I compare myself to the little cars that kids get that you pull back, pull back, pull back, and you set them down and let them go. That's me, right? To some extent, in that, that energy, well-directed, produces in many cases phenomenal results.

How do you measure success in your life?

So I think it's, it's a balance, um, because success is different in different, in the different aspects of our lives. Uh, at work, in the boardroom, in the meeting room, whatever you want to call it, is one thing. But success outside of your life, your personal life, um, in your relationship with your partner, your relationship with your family, your children, I think you've got to have balance there. And success is going to be different for each and every person. But I think that if you really broke it down, having balance among all those different things is really what equates to being successful.

A lot of people struggle with that balance. They get consumed by their work, or they get consumed by their ambition, and so they get out of balance. What would you say to them?

I'd say that you need to Sometimes take a step back and take a breath, not only figuratively, but literally. And that may mean walking away from the computer, walking away from the office. It could be as simple as— I used to work in New York and you have those moments where you just, okay, I need 10 minutes. I need to go around the block 1 or 2 or 3 times or whatever it takes just to collect my thoughts, right? And that's from a work perspective, but I think the same applies in your personal life. And for a lot of people, obviously they can get onto social media or turn on the TV, but sometimes it's just, it's shutting all of that down and having some one-on-one time with yourself or your creator and, and having a conversation about what you need to regain that balance and reset it.

Yeah, I think that's good advice. I think that there are a lot of people that, uh, you know, they suffer from imbalance in their lives and they compensate with it in with, with activities or behaviors or thoughts that are probably not, not healthy for them. But it's really hard when, when the cultural stereotype mandates one kind of behavior, but balance and health mandates something completely opposite of that, and you've got to fight against the cultural stereotype.

You do, and you do, and you have to fight against the cultural stereotype that you've got it all together all the time.

That's right.

You don't have to have it all together all the time to be successful. It's okay to have areas or times in your life when it's like, okay, I can't figure it out, but let me— let's see if I can find someone to come alongside and help me figure it out, right?

I think that's really important too, is That's, that's being authentic and vulnerable, I think, is being willing to recognize, um, your strengths and work your strengths and understand where you— what your limitations are and find other people to support your limitations.

Yeah, 100%, right? I think that everyone should have someone in their life that they can go to, and sometimes it's multiple people for different aspects of your life, right? In my life, it might be my father that I can go to to bounce ideas off of when it comes to raising my children. But in work life, I have a mentor and a coach that I can go to with ideas, with questions, with thoughts, and, and feel that I can be vulnerable and open and not judged in any way by asking for help when I think I need it.

When you're, when you're looking at to recruit somebody into your sales organization, what do you How do you— what are you looking for in a person?

I've been asked this question so many times.

I'm not surprised.

And it's, it's hard. It's a— it's— there are some very— there are some tangible things, right? And energy and presentation and experience all speak volumes for sure. But I think there are intangibles in that you can pick up on, uh, nonverbal cues, um, and you can, you can push and press them, right? I'm looking for someone who's hungry for sure, um, so they're ambitious, um, but I want to know that they're committed in the sense that they want to hone their own skill set, right? If someone's in a sales position, I feel that they should be— that's their craft. You should be honing that craft, right? Just like a doctor has to go every year to get continuing education and learn and grow new developments, new techniques, new processes. I think you need to be pressing in as consistently and as regularly as you can to grow and to sharpen those skills if you're truly committed to doing that in a career role. So to answer the question, It takes— what I look for is that hunger, the ambition for sure, but the commitment to knowing, hey, I'm working on my craft. I'm not perfect. I'm not the end-all be-all, but I'm working on it so that I can be better each and every day, each and every week, month, quarter, and year. And so that's what I'm trying to nail down and find when I sit across from a candidate. That I'm going to bring on the team.

That sounds like you're looking for people with a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset, and they, they've demonstrated that by their lifelong learning.

Absolutely, yeah. And past success speaks to that, but past success, as we know, doesn't guarantee future success, right? But it can increase the likelihood of future success for sure.

Interesting.

So tell me how important listening is. In your work?

Listening is critical. It's, it's, it's so important when we're talking with prospective clients. And it's important too when we're talking, just communicating internally. I think there's things that can be picked up on. We learned very early, I learned very early on in that call center, 20-something, 26 years ago now, that it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say what you say. And that comes through. We use that. We use those listening skills, speak listening for the tone and the things that are unsaid in what they say every time we talk to a client. We have the advantage today where we We are, you know, we can video chat so we can look and see some of the nonverbal cues that go with it. But oftentimes you, you don't have that advantage when you're just on a phone call with someone. So listening's critical because it'll tell you things. And so I think I'm a big believer in validating what you hear. Well, Mr. Customer, I, I, I think this is what I'm hearing, but could you validate this for me?

Right?

And, um, and going through that exercise. Uh, Chris Voss, um, is a believer in labeling it. Call it out for what it is and, and label it. It sounds like that makes you uncomfortable. Is that what I'm hearing? Whatever the case may be. So listening is critical both internally and externally with the clients that we're talking to on an everyday basis.

What's really interesting is you mentioned Chris Voss. I developed a deep set of emotional listening skills about a decade and a half before he did. Based on— I actually developed the skills before the Lieberman study came out, and he cites the Lieberman study in his book. But when you look at it, it's just so interesting to see the application of this work, his work as an FBI hostage negotiator, and my work as a lawyer turned peacemaker. And teaching people how to listen to emotions instead of to words. It's really interesting. And also what's interesting is to see how the difference in phraseology. For example, I never teach people to— the only time I tell people to use an I statement is when you're asserting your own emotions. I'm angry. Yeah. But if I'm reflecting you, Joel, I might say, hey Joel, man, you're really frustrated and you're pissed off. Yeah. And you're really anxious and concerned. So it's a direct use statement. And it's interesting to see the power of these different kinds of listening tools and how they work, especially in sales. I've done sales training, teaching my listening techniques to sales teams. And the first thing I tell them, tell the groups that engage me to come in, and I say, for the first 4 minutes, do not ask a question, do not say anything. Just listen and reflect and only ignore their words and reflect their feelings and watch what happens.

Yeah, that's very good.

Yeah, I like that. Really powerful stuff.

Because people—

my experience is— I'm curious about your experiences. My experience is that most people have never been deeply validated or heard.

I, I believe that's true, and I, and I believe in validating my people and my— and, and understanding. We do that at Zen Media in the sense that, um, we go through this, the, the print personality exercise to understand, um, the different aspects of each person's personality and, and what they respond to and how they respond and, and try to reinforce that as we're talking with them or working shoulder to shoulder with them on a daily basis. So I think it's incredibly important. To validate them and, and that they feel that they're heard and validated.

That's right. I, I, I, I— every time I teach and every time I practice these skills, and whether I'm working as a professional peacemaker or mediator or whatever, or I'm teaching people how to do this, I, I am always impressed at how powerful an effect you can have on another person if you just take the time to listen them into existence.

Oh yeah, 100%.

I mean, to me, and it's such a simple skill to learn and master, and it costs you nothing to do it.

Oh no.

And yet nobody, very few people think about it.

It's, it's, um, it's interesting. You can, you can change a person's day or their life. Yeah, or their life. And it's, um, it's interesting, uh, the, the psychology behind it all. And, um, but how it, it really knocks walls down, right? Because we all go through life, especially in this day and age, with our guards up all the time. Um, and what do we let in? But sometimes you— those— that guard can naturally come down when done correct— thoughtfully, correctly, right? Thoughtfully is probably the better word. Yeah. As it pertains to, and can I help them feel validated in any way? Even little things, it doesn't take a lot of effort or time to your point.

Right.

But doing it, being aware of it is important.

Yeah, that you're talking about putting your guard up. One of the things that I teach is how to have a calm conversation with the politically polarized. And my process is it's, first of all, never have a conversation with the politically polarized if you need to persuade, if you need to be right.

Yeah, there you go.

That's, that is not, that's not going to be a conversation, that's going to be a dogfight.

Yeah.

Um, but really, I get, I tell people, and it's a great exercise in learning how to listen, ask 4 questions. The first question is, what are all the things that happen in your life that led you to have the beliefs that you have today?

Yeah.

Second question is, how do your beliefs serve you in your everyday decision-making? The third question is, how do you deal with people who disagree with you and have different beliefs? And the fourth question, my favorite, is, how should our society be organized to deal with all of these different beliefs that at times seem to be really at odds with each other?

Yeah, they are. It's interesting, you know, our— my family is one that politically is divided politically, yet we can all come together, right, and enjoy one another's company and there's no issue, right? And we know where the guardrails are, if you will, as it pertains to this political party or political topic or not. So yeah, I think it's for sure something that's important when it comes to knowing for sure that you can sow into someone's life positively by being thoughtful about their point of view, their perspective, their life experience, and how that plays a role and shapes them into the person that they are today.

That's right.

Understand that. I think it helps you work together even better.

Absolutely.

Productive.

Yep, absolutely. My experience is If you have a conversation asking these 4 questions, you find out that you have far more in common with this person who appears to be politically polarized than you have in disagreement. And you share a lot of—

I like those questions. That's great. Yeah.

And all you have to do is take the time and be patient and listen, and you'll find out that you— there's a lot in common. And that political polarization, you realize, is a— it's a false front.

There you go.

That's been created not because of us people, but it's been created by politicians who get votes and money based on fear and tribalism and making polarization a thing. But when we take the time to listen, we can— the polarization no longer matters. Yep.

Isn't that something?

It's crazy, isn't it?

It's wild. It really is.

That's why I tell people— people say, well, who do you vote for? I'm politically, I'm an independent, but I say I vote for the people who lead me to the light, not into the darkness. There you go.

That's a good way to put it.

I like that. I don't care what political party they are. Yep.

Yep. And I think everybody would really agree with that.

Right.

Right.

But too often we have too many people who are leading us into darkness for their own reasons. Sure.

Yeah, that's the truth.

So where, where's your life go from here, Joel? Where does— what does— what's Joel look like in 10 or 15 years?

Oh geez, 10 or 15 years, that's not even an interview question. Um, so, you know, my kids are getting— my— I have one who's graduated high school, moving on to college, uh, one who's just 2 years away from college, or a year and a half away from college at this point. And so really in the short term, right? I'm thinking about them and how I'm ensured I'm, I'm doing the best I can to ensure that they are set up for the best possible future they can have. And outside of that, when it comes to work, it's, I want to make sure that every single day I'm contributing in the best way I can to the future success of this organization, future being tomorrow, future being 10 years from now. And if I can do that on a daily basis, that I know in 10 years, in 20 years, that I can rest easy knowing that I made an impact to that organization and its future. And that really is what's important to me.

Leave things better than when you found them.

Exactly right. Yes, sir.

Yeah, no, I get that. Totally get that. All right, I got one more question for you. What's one thing about you, Joel, that we would never know unless you reveal it to us?

One thing about me that you would never know unless I revealed it to you? That's a tough question. I think that, I think that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty much an open book. So there's not a lot that, um, I haven't— I, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. I'm pretty, I'm, I'm pretty much an open book beginning to end. But I think it would have to be— I don't know. I don't know that I can answer that question right now without a lot of thought.

That's interesting. Like, you would never know that I play jazz and blues violin.

There you go. See, that's interesting. Um, I don't know. I don't— I think I wear my, uh, my life pretty out in the open and wear my emotions on my sleeve most of the time. And wow, transparent about that. I don't think that there's anything people wouldn't know. I'm getting remarried in Italy in September.

That's exciting.

Yeah, I don't know if some people might know that, but I mean, I've been pretty open and verbal about that as well. Um, so that is exciting, but, uh, I don't know that I can think of something else.

All right, well, great. Well, as you can tell, we've come to the end of the half an hour, and it went fast as always. Thank you so much for taking your time out of your busy day, Joel, to be with us. Really appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thank you so much, sir. It was good meeting you and, uh, good meeting the audience as well.

Thank you.

Take care.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this share this episode on social media. Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.