86 - Scaling your Business with Effective Online Growth Tactics with Porters Company's Michael Campanaro

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Michael Campanaro, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder of Porters.io. Or Porters, I guess we call it, and it can be found at porters.io. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for taking time out to join us.

Yeah, me too. Absolutely. I'm happy, happy to be on, on your show.

So tell us, first of all, tell us a little bit about your backstory.

Sure. I think really my, where I'm at today really started right out of college when I started my first business. I graduated from the Savannah College of Art and Design with a degree in sound design, actually. Um, but as I graduated, I decided I would, um, go forward with a hobby of mine. Uh, and I was involved in kiteboarding at the time. And so I started teaching the sport while I was in school, and then that started to evolve into a business where I was, uh, charging people for lessons. And then I realized I needed a website and, uh, a location and a retail store. And I started out of the back of a van and then moved into a retail space on Tybee Island, Georgia, where I learned a lot about business really quickly. I grew that business with a friend of mine and co-founded, and we grew it from like with, with nothing to pretty quickly being like the place to go for kiteboards. And as I kept learning, I kept growing. We became a North American distributor for a kiteboarding company from Poland or from Spain too. And we're distributing to retailers in the United States, to different businesses inside of the kiteboarding and surf industry. So that really elevated, I mean, got me started. I did that for 6 years, but I found a love for e-commerce and marketing. And I wanted to take on that as a career and learn more. So I up and left and moved to New York. I ran my business remotely, actually a bit for a while, but moved to New York and started working for companies and brands there, where I then kept moving forward in that career path and landed into director of marketing positions, e-commerce director positions, operations in a, in a development agency. And that's really, yeah, that's kind of my story and how I got started in my career too.

Kitesurfing to marketing, branding. Yeah. Who would ever guess?

Yeah.

And kitesurfing is, I've never tried it. I've done a lot of crazy things in my life, but that's not one of them.

I never would've expected it. I was sitting on the beach one day and I saw someone, I was living in Georgia where I, I couldn't snowboard and I grew up snowboarding and I like surfing as well, but there were also no waves in Georgia and there was no snow. I saw someone doing the sport on the water and I saw it and that same exact day I walked into a local shop and I asked where to do it and I got out on that day on a lesson and that changed my whole life really. This, it allowed me to travel the world and allowed me to meet so many people and learn so much about, uh, business and also how not to do business. So it was a great learning experience.

I don't want to get too much into kitesurfing, but, but I mean, it looks— I mean, I watch people do it here on our West Coast. I live in California, and on our West Coast, man, it looks like it takes a lot of skill. Uh, yeah, those guys are screaming.

Yeah, it's a lot of time, uh, a lot of, uh, water in your face, and, uh, Yeah, but it's the payoff is you have a kind of a 360 view of the ocean and you can go all over the place and it's like sailing, but you're on a board.

Yeah, I've done a lot of sailing, raced sailboats, but— Oh, wow. Kitesurfing looks like it's a whole different thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So tell us about Porters.io. What is the company? What's it doing? Why did you find—

with it.

Yeah, so Porters.io is a marketing and consulting company that's focused on helping brands scale their businesses online with strategy and e-commerce like tactics and planning. But in a, in an easier way to explain it, we act as an external partner to brands at any stage of their company for when they're lacking resources or lacking leadership that they need. We've worked with companies that are ground up, like don't even have a website or fulfillment center. Like we come, we've gone, gone in very early with some brands to working with really well-established companies that have been around for, for years, and they're looking to kind of scale to the next level. But in all cases, it's mostly with places or teams that are at a loss of what they should do for e-commerce. Like the sales online is still confusing to them. Maybe they've been focused a lot on wholesale, but they're all lacking like the resources and team and then they don't know how to maybe hire or make the internal hires to grow that. So I started this like idea and or not idea, but in 2014 I had the idea to like break away from working for brands and start this company. And I, I had the name picked out, I had a website picked out. The idea was the same to really be like a resource for people to really help them like navigate through a lot of the maybe mistakes that I had made in the past too. But in 2014, I then had an offer and I knew the offer was gonna allow me to learn more and be better for my clients in the future. So I took that offer and it led to a few other positions. And, and right before COVID or right after, I think it was right after COVID, I was with a brand that ended up getting acquired and I wasn't interested in staying there and I was ready to kind of take the leap. And at that point, I knew the timing was right and I had been consulting on that as well. So I knew it was just right and took the jump and it's been rolling ever since. And it's, it's amazing to have like, this is my third business now. So coming after running two, like interesting businesses that might have been a bit of a struggle to then starting Porters, which has really just taken off and been just, it's felt like really rewarding to be able to help people get through these like growing pains too.

And you guys are totally remote, right?

Yeah, that even back in '14, like before COVID that was the goal. Like I wanted my whole team to be remote. I wanted to be able to work globally if that option was to pop up or like if I want to hire someone in another country or like I just wanted flexibility to think more globally. And that's ultimately like where I am growing to be. And I've worked with some brands in Spain as well as Norway. UK, so I'd like to really expand that. But right now our base is in the US, but fully remote for anybody who works with us.

How are you finding managing your remote people?

For me, it's been, it was very natural because I had, I had personally worked remote for a company for 3 years and that company actually was hesitant to hire me because I was remote. And they didn't know how it was gonna work, but I, I remember saying when they hired me, they had questioned that. And I remember saying, well, I think in 10 years from now, everybody's gonna be remote. And now it's so funny. I didn't expect COVID to happen. Uh, but everyone is remote now. So, um, but that allowed me some practice before like coming in here. And in that position, I actually did go to the office once a week, uh, or once a month. And what I found was I had like somewhat less productivity across my whole team during that week, cuz we had been in so many meetings all of the time. So what it allowed me to do is really like focus on how I communicate with people in like different ways of project management and what tools we can use to like better that communication. And that's, that's really how I handle like being remote is making sure that our communication, even though it may not be in person, but making sure that we're always communicating. And face-to-face even is still important, I think. Like, so I always am like a camera-on person. I like to make eye contact or see who I'm talking to. And I think like from a management standpoint of managing your team, it's very important to hop on a call, uh, even just to have a conversation about their day or Like it doesn't have to be work-focused, but keeping that relationship like communicative is very important.

And you still, your team's still small enough that you can stay in touch with just about everyone. What do you have, about 15 people on your team?

Yeah, we're about like 10 right now. So yeah. So yes, it's a small team. I do think though, like, because I've, because I work with other companies too that also have teams and then I'll work like sometimes I might work with an agency too that has a team as well. And then they have other teams. There's like a lot of layers to it as well. So we end up communicating with quite a lot of people on a regular basis. So it actually feels like we're working with so many teams because we all have like 8 or 10 clients at a time. And it's like we're, we're able to kind of think of them all as a big company in a way too.

What is it that gets you excited in the morning? It gets you out of bed and say, oh boy, another day. How fun.

Yeah. Uh, I think it's the motivation to see these brands grow. Honestly, I, I, I really feel like I'm helping people even, even sometimes, like I've had some clients be like, they'd get off a call with me and be like, wow, that was kind of like a therapy, uh, like call. And I'm, I'm like, I'm just happy I can kind of help them through those growing pains. So when I, especially when I get a new client, that's like really in a way emotionally struggling with the growth. Like I really love that I can draw from my experience of being there and like help them move past it or help like the anxiety of like racing thoughts of all their priorities and just like help them focus on what's in front of them at that time. So that really gets me motivated. So if I have a call on a day with a client that's, um, that's kind of in those shoes that Definitely motivates me.

Wow. Neat. What about, what do you think it is that, that's unique about you that you bring to the table that nobody else can do?

I would definitely say it's just the like amount of things I've had my hands on and how much experience I can draw from. I think when people first start working with me, I think they think of me as like a, maybe like the marketers they've worked with before. And don't necessarily realize that I actually have like hands-on experience with things like website development. I'm a designer as well. Like I can create whatever they need, like in Photoshop, I could edit video. And then like the previous ownership of a business too has like really helped me, like I think differentiate me from a lot of people. Who they've worked with before. They've also, a lot of the times too, like, so my company, we are, we're, we call ourselves a company, not an agency. And I think that it comes down to who people are working with. And I, and they're working with somebody who has been on the brand side and worked with agencies and have always felt like there's a little bit of a disconnect because the people I'm working with haven't really been in my shoes before. Like they haven't been running a brand or owning a brand or a company. And they really don't necessarily understand like the priorities or like what is running through my head and in terms of like goals and all of that. And that's helped to tremendously create this really like trust relationship between my clients and I, because I think I've, I've worn their shoes before in most Mostly all cases too.

The ability to relate to all of their anxiety because you've been there yourself.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, now I'm even— this is— I'm 3 years in. We're just hitting our 3-year anniversary and, um, I'm— I still go through like the roller coasters of growing a business, but because I've done this 2 other times, I'm now, uh, like pretty prepared for it. So it's, it's— it wasn't a shock to me that like what was ahead of me when I started this.

Exactly. So this show is called Listening with Leaders because, as you probably know, I'm all about listening. Tell me about the importance of listening from your perspective as a founder and CEO of a, of the, of the company that you operate.

I mean, I would say it's everything when it comes to, um, how I even just start working with someone, whether it be an employee or, um, it be a client. I think that By listening, you're able to really understand what drives that person. From a client standpoint, I can understand their priorities pretty quickly if I can just sort of be, be quiet, ask the right questions, and let them really guide me into like asking more questions. But without listening, I'm not able to have that deeper conversation to really understand what drives them and what like goals they're really after. I can quickly hear in it in mostly a lot of calls by listening, I can hear, uh, like what's gonna be the winning thing for this client or what's gonna be the number one thing that we should focus on, um, in our work too, that's gonna help not only them grow, but their brand too. It's a lot about listening for their brand. Um, and then from a team's perspective, um, I think Listening comes with trust. So building the trust to allow them to talk and open up to you is really, really important. And so, like, I've grown a lot in the way that I have, like, allowed myself to listen and even stop talking so much so I can listen. And maybe now I'm actually like the type of person that will take some bullet points of things I want to say to allow them to talk and to allow myself to listen. So I'm not like interrupting someone and jumping in with my thoughts and then like running into a huge circle in a conversation. I think it's really great if you can have some silence and listen and then think about really like a thoughtful response for each time we're responding.

I love your idea of just putting what you wanna say into 2 or 3 bullet points. And then holding onto that and not feeling like you're the guy that has to be out there doing all the talking.

Exactly. Sometimes the, what I write will be answered. And then if I just like interrupted to say something, I, I mean, I got the answer to the question anyways, so it would, would've been sort of a, I could have got them off their train of thought and led them in the wrong direction. So.

Oh no, I mean, that's great. And in any conversation, if you're, as you point out, if you're thoughtful about your listening, you can always make your points. And sometimes you can make your points without having to say anything. Other people will make them for you. Yeah. Yeah. And that's even the more powerful way of communicating, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Silence has been a practice of mine, even on a lot of calls. I'll, I'll, um, I will practice that in my head, like remind myself to do that as well.

You can get a lot of information by keeping your mouth shut.

Yeah, exactly. My, my mother was a guidance counselor and so, and a social worker, and I feel like some of it was like training with her as well and like how to listen. And it was, it's always about listening when it comes to that too. So it's so interesting. To see how my life has sort of like come, how it's grown from all of that too.

Well, you're playing a consultative role. So in that role, you know, listening to the problems and the anxieties and the fears and all the feelings that your clients have becomes critical to understanding where they're coming from right now and in understanding what do they really need important, because sometimes what they think they need is not what they really need.

Yeah, yes, exactly.

And then understand what they really need, and then taking the time to gently explain to them, well, you're feeling this and experiencing this, you might want to consider doing Y instead.

Yeah, the validation is very important, I think, when you're speaking to people, to allow them to understand that you You did hear them, but here's like what I sort of like my perspective from an outside perspective too. But the validation is really important, I think, in any leadership or conversation because I think people want to be listened to as well. So it's important. Yeah.

My experience as a lawyer turned peacemaker is that very few people feel deeply heard. And when you can hear them in a deep way, and using the word— the word I like to use too is validation— where they feel deeply validated, they will calm down and follow you anywhere, right? I mean, that's really the huge secret of listening.

Yeah. And actually, like, when I think about it from a consulting perspective, I need, um, you need like your clients to gain that trust too. And then, 'cause they ultimately like need to gain that in order for them to kind of follow your strategy or follow what you wanna do with a brand. And like, so without that, a lot of the times they don't feel like they were part of that, like got kind of that equation. And in some ways you're sort of helping them see that like, we've gotten to this point, but now I sort of need to be a, be a, like a follower in some cases.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, trust follows listening. When people feel heard and validated, they're gonna trust you and then you can help them. I mean, that's why the company's called Porters, right? You're the Sherpa, you're the guide leading.

Exactly. I'm glad you caught onto that.

You know where the mountain lions are, you know where the, this trail's collapsed, but this trail we can work on.

And, and the interesting thing about Porters is they'll typically like scale a mountain prior to, prior to an excursion and like map it out before actually like guiding someone. So that's sort of like the, the concept of strategy and guidance.

Yeah, that's a great metaphor. I use, I use the same metaphor when I'm training people, uh, as peacemakers and mediators. I said we're Sherpas, you know, we don't carry anybody's load for them. We just, we, we're guides and and we guide them. They kind of show us where they want to go and we guide them there in the most efficient way possible. And this sounds very similar to what they kind of—

Yeah, I also had a, I mean, the vision originally for my company was to work with outdoor brands a lot too. We had an opportunity to work with Patagonia recently, which was like a huge win for me from a, just like a little bit of an obsession with with, uh, their owner and, and their company. But yeah, yeah, um, uh, and yeah, I really enjoy him as a leader too. But I, uh, um, yeah, I always had a vision for it being like outdoor sports because of my background too. It's obviously like evolved from there, but, uh, initially like in 2014 I had like, um, like mountains of like logo designs that I was working on that were more like to lean into Porter's, but I stripped it all away and right now it's, we're working with a lot of different brands.

What kind of company, what kind of, what kind of niches are your clients in?

We have, I mean, it runs, runs a pretty broad spectrum, but we, we tend to work with more like forward-thinking minimalist style brands that are in luxury spaces. But we, We definitely have worked with some that are more traditional businesses too. So for example, in, in Norway, we worked with a really amazing doormat company that's like creating a really elevated mat that's in the design space, and their focus is on sustainability, but as well as like really beautiful design. And they're a growing company, like, like they sell on Design Within Reach and Design Milk and some really well-known placements for their company. And the other company also like we're working with, or kind of like niche of markets is the clean skincare companies or like luxury skincare that's been kind of coming up like on, in terms of like newer clients that we've been getting, it's been in skincare. But we definitely have worked with like, like kids, like soap brands. We work with a national fulfillment company. We've done, we're working with a company in Maine for a, like a golf cart sales company. So we are all over with our focus. But we do, we do really a lot of the times, like, I mean, we're working with Shopify brands that are, or companies that are looking to convert their site from like WordPress or somewhere else to Shopify. And we're Shopify experts and partners and will help brands like grow on the platform. And so that tends to be more like the kind of— that's why like a lot of brands on skincare, a lot of brands like who are coming with consumer product goods are selling on Shopify. So that tends to be the area that we are focused on.

Are these companies all pure e-commerce or are they brick and mortar too?

A lot of them are actually, yeah, not brick and mortar, but they're selling on other channels. A lot of them will come to us with wholesale and Amazon. That's typically like where they'll be at. And then they're looking to like, they've had a website, but they do not, they don't know how to scale it. And then they'll come to us and they're looking to grow their e-com because they realize like margins are going to be better if they're selling direct. And if they cut, they're sort of able to kind of balance things out across their channels. And not put all their eggs in one basket, they can ultimately like see revenue growth like with that in conjunction to the other things they're doing too.

Yeah, it sounds like what's really nice about what you're doing is you can, unlike a lot of branding agencies, you can, from the work that you guys do for your clients, you can have a direct link to ROI. You can say you pay, you pay us this and you're gonna see this kind of ROI.

Yeah, exactly. We can, I mean, we're, we're, we're not always involved in, in every channel for our clients, For example, like we're not always involved in advertising, but we want to be, or we move to that. So it really varies depending on the client because some people will just come to us also for web development and look for expertise in design and development. And then some will be like, we need literally everything, we have nothing. And then it's great because we can really drive the needle for how we think we can essentially like grow the revenue for their business. That's great.

One more question. I'll let you go. What's, what's one thing about you, Michael, that we would not know anything about unless you revealed it to us?

I'm a 4-time Ironman triathlete that for, I think, I mean, it might say it on my LinkedIn profile, so you might have figured it out, but I think that that would be so maybe an unexpected thing. So I'm a, passionate cyclist and I have been working with a, a nonprofit called the Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation since my mom passed away from that, from multiple myeloma cancer and have been raising awareness and, and, and, and been riding really for that organization and doing different events since she passed away too. So that's like a big, big part of my life is triathlon and I mean, I was up at 5 o'clock yesterday on a, on a group ride. And, uh, so it's like, yeah, it's, and I have 4 children. I have 4 kids. That's also something that would be kind of unexpected based on like how much other stuff I have going on too.

You've got a full plate.

They have a full plate.

Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Michael.

It's been a joy.

Yeah.

Thank you too, Doug. I really appreciate it. Absolutely.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.