88 - Reaping the Rewards of Empowering Underserved Communities with Dotted Lines' Kelly Smith

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Kelly Smith, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the co-founder of Dotted Lines, which can be found at dottedlines.co. .com. Thank you so much for your time today.

Hi, Doug. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast today. It's wonderful getting to talk to you.

Thank you. What, what really impressed me, uh, when I interviewed you for Authority Magazine is you're like me. Uh, you're, you're, you're a lawyer. You were a transactional lawyer, not a, a trial lawyer like I was, but, and you had the courage to break out of the big firm lifestyle and form your own firm. So tell us a little bit about the backstory on that.

Yeah, I'd love to share more about that. So I went to law school. I'm from the Dallas, Texas area, went to law school at SMU here in Dallas, had a wonderful experience there. And, you know, during law school, it was really sold that the dream was to get this, this big firm attorney job. That was kind of the pinnacle. And so, you worked really hard in law school to get those qualifying grades, to get that big firm job, and was so grateful for the opportunity. And I do have to say, starting my career there, absolutely no regrets. I mean, you get very sophisticated work. You know, I learned from some of the most intelligent, smart people, great clients. So very, very glad for the opportunity to start my career there. But, you know, a few years in, I started realizing that I just didn't feel like, as I looked at my life as a whole, that staying there forever was going to be the most fulfilling thing for me. I've always had a very entrepreneurial spirit, really since I was a young girl. I can remember being as young as 5 or 6 and coming up with the different businesses I would be trying to run out of like our front yard and sell stuff to our neighbors. I mean, it was kind of odd. So I've always had this draw inside of me, wanted to pursue that. And so I left the firm actually to go work for a serial, a very successful serial entrepreneur. And it was really through working with him that I got exposed to this world of building businesses, how they get built, seeing the impacts that they really have on communities and realized, okay, I do love this, but I still didn't have, I was closer to, that entrepreneurialism, but I did still didn't have the ownership. It still wasn't my company. So when my co-founder Kristin came to me with this idea of providing access to legal education, well-drafted contract templates, and supporting startup entrepreneurs who might not otherwise either know where to find an attorney or couldn't afford a traditional attorney, I latched onto the idea, absolutely loved it. And so told her I'm in. And it was really at that point that we came together and used our, our experience and our backgrounds to form Dotted Lines and provide this education to other and legal templates to other entrepreneurs.

So tell us about Dotted Lines. What is it? It's a— it's, it's obviously online. What, what services does it provide?

So we have a couple different service lines right now, and we're always looking to expand. But right now there's kind of two, two groups we're serving. So the first group is health, wellness, nutrition professionals, and we have really tailored contracts available for that group. And then we also serve business coaches, career coaches, mindset coaches, life coaches. That's another segment we have. And so we've developed contract templates to support those entrepreneurs. And then I think one thing that's unique about what we offer, as opposed to if you were to go to— obviously LegalZoom exists if you want legal templates. But I think what makes us more unique is one, we're really tailored down to these niches. We really understand them. And so the templates are much more tailored to the needs of the niche. Second, we do tutorial videos with all of our contract templates to really walk our customers through exactly what the provisions mean so that they really feel empowered with these contracts. And, you know, they know what's inside of them. And to the extent they need to be— there's some blanks that need to be completed, they feel really confident when doing that. And then I think the third difference, and one I'm really the most excited about, is there's an educational component to it. So We have a signature program that includes over 40 educational videos, kind of everything you need to start and run a business. So a lot of those simple questions that, well, they appear simple to us because we've done this for so long, but can be difficult if it's your first time. So questions about how do I form an entity, where do I go, what kind of entity? Yeah, what kind of entity? Tax, some tax questions. How do I get an EIN? And then questions about, you know, day-to-day things that come up when you're operating a business. Like, what if someone steals my content? What if I have a bad client relationship and I need to terminate it? How do I handle that? Refund requests, kind of the very common things that come up for business owners. We want, we wanted to contemplate all of that and then create these educational lessons that could be made available for those who need it.

That's pretty cool. And how long is— how long has Dotted Lines been up?

So about, about a year now. So we're still relatively new. And so we've got all of our content there and now we're just working on, you know, continuing to, to penetrate the market and, and make it known that, that we exist. We've had incredible feedback from our customers so far, which is really, really satisfying. You know, you pour your heart and soul into something, and I feel like you really do become vulnerable to put yourself out there in, in the world, and you want it to be successful. Um, you're kind of holding your breath until you get those, those first, um, comments and testimonials in, and As we've seen such positive feedback, it really has been so fulfilling to know that we, the mission we set out to accomplish, we are achieving.

So, so what's it like to, to now be an entrepreneur and have a, basically a startup that is involved in providing unbundled legal services compared to when you were working at a big firm doing client work?

You know, I think that it's It's definitely very different, but it's, it's really rewarding because I think I'm able to see that we're serving an entirely different audience and what would traditionally be a really underserved community. I think that it's tough because I feel so really just blessed that I have this legal education and I want to be able to share it with as many people as possible. And I think that the legal system is a bit of a dinosaur and that there are barriers to access that are really holding people back that don't need to be there. So the way we've designed this model where it's, you know, educational pre-recorded lessons and a template model, it makes it much more affordable, accessible. And to me, that is so exciting because I feel like we are empowering individuals to, to start and businesses that they might not otherwise feel confident to start at all. Or what we've seen a lot of times too is that— and I was guilty of this myself— is that you kind of intentionally stay small because, you know, maybe you're not doing things right, or you feel like if I stay smaller, I have less risk because I don't know that I'm protected from my risk, so I'll just stay small. Um, so what I love about it is we're able to bring this education to many people that about how to protect risk. And then it kind of gets rid of that, whether it's conscious or a lot of times it's even subconscious that, you know, you got to stay small because you're worried about risk exposure and you don't know what you're doing.

And from the legal side of things, how do you think AI is going to affect your business? I'm sure you guys have talked about that.

That's a great question. And we've definitely talked about it. And had conversations about it. And I think it's not just our business, but the legal industry as a whole. And I think that it's something I'm ready to embrace because again, kind of the statement I made earlier about just feeling like there is a failure in how legal services are delivered to communities right now. I do think AI is great because I think it will continue to bring that access to the, to more people. But, you know, you know, as we all know, there are limitations with AI as well. And so I think that through dotted lines, we're going to be able to bridge that gap of still having very tailored contracts to, you know, these specific industries. And then also, there's that educational component as well that it's going to be more difficult to get through AI. I also just think that at this point, and, you know, I can't talk way down the line, right? Like, who— I'm sure AI will get so powerful, who knows, right? But, you know, in the near future, I do think AI is not replacing this human connection of knowing that, like, hey, there are real people on the other side of this that, um, you know, although we don't provide legal advice through Dotted Lines, like, there are real people that we're here to, you know, provide guidance, answer questions, um, assist. I think that's really irreplaceable.

So— I just had the thought, for what it's worth, is that when we think about something like ChatGPT, you could do a whole video segment on what kind of prompts to use in order to get a legal document, a good legal document.

Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think when you mentioned that, so we recently did one of our educational videos. It's not quite uploaded yet. We've almost got it ready. It'll be up soon. Is on ChatGPT and how it affects intellectual property rights and kind of the ins and outs of if you use ChatGPT to generate content, what, you know, how does that impact intellectual property rights? Yeah. And then in addition to that, actually, I learned through researching and preparing for this topic that in ChatGPT's terms and conditions and publishing requirements, there's certain disclosures you have to make if you're using ChatGPT and, you know, incorporating it into your own content. So this video that we recorded, it has more information about the disclosure requirements as well. We also wrote a blog post on it that's out there if anybody's interested in learning more, because I was fascinated as I dug in such novel issues.

I think it's going to be a real game changer as it evolves. It's going to It's going to streamline the practice of law in many ways, and it's going to— but it's also probably going to eliminate a lot of jobs.

Yeah.

Or lower-level jobs in law firms, because, I mean, once you understand how to do prompts and it gets sophisticated enough, you can draft a contract in seconds.

Yeah. And even, I mean, I've demoed some of the software that's out there right now that to review contracts, it can be very powerful. You know, I know it can review very basic NDAs, things like that, that are coming through. And it is very powerful and I'm sure will just continue to increase what it can do.

So what is it that gets you excited every morning, gets you out of bed and gets you, oh boy, another day, how exciting, how much fun am I gonna have today?

That's a great question. You know, It's a few different things. Um, I do think that feeling like I'm— one of the reasons I love working on Dotted Lines is I feel like it's the opportunity to show up every day and continue working and building something. And to me, that's exciting. Um, because every day I, I feel like I get to, to really think strategically of You know, how are we gonna grow our audience? How are we gonna get our name out there? How are we gonna continue to deliver more value to people? And so that excites me so much. And it's just, when you're an entrepreneur, it, it's never ending, right? Like I have so many ideas and thoughts and things I wanna chase down and there's really only so much time in the day. But so that's really exciting. And I think secondly, it's just really having, knowing what's important to you and being able to align with that mission. So, you know, for example, through Dotted Lines, I really believe that we are helping people. I believe in entrepreneurship. I see how, what it's done for our society, how, you know, entrepreneurs, what they've been able to come up with, what they've delivered to our society, how it helps, you know, themselves, their own families, their employees. Whole communities. It's huge. And so being able to be just a small part of that is very exciting and gets me up in the morning.

Good for you. And what is it that you think is unique about what you bring to the table?

That's a good question too.

I like to ask good questions.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think that one unique piece of my personality would be that I do feel like I've always been, you know, people, when I hear other people, what they would say about me is that I'm a very down-to-earth person. And I feel like I've always been very relatable. And, you know, I have a somewhat diverse background, and I feel like that has been able to help me relate to, you know, broader groups of people. And just having that kind of emotional intelligence and being able to really connect with people on that level, that's something that I feel like I've always had a gift of. And I'm just so thankful for it. Like, I love— people are what I love. Relationships are what I love. So how did you—

how did you develop that? That's unusual in a lawyer, I must say.

I don't— it is, it is unusual in a lawyer, and I think that, that has been— that was a challenge for me at, you know, at the law firm, because I will say that that's not always, um, the case. And I know you have a background as a litigator. I did. So I split my summer between a transactional group, my summer internship between a transactional group and a litigation group. So I quickly found that given my personality, I did not like all of the contention that comes with litigation. You know, I will say at least transactional is a better fit because it's mostly deal-making and, and trying to get people to come together. So at least I was able to get that. I mean, you're still fighting over deal points, but at the end of the day, you share a common goal. So that was important to me. And I think I just looked for— I've always looked for ways to, you know, connect people within the communities I'm in. So, you know, back at the law firm, I was highly involved in our summer recruiting efforts and taking on mentees through that. And, you know, it might— after that, when I left to, to work for the serial entrepreneur I mentioned, I kind of got nicknamed the social chair because I was always the one to kind of coordinate social outings and, and connect our team and our group together. So I think finding those ways, you know, even maybe outside of my normal typical job duties, has always been very fulfilling and important to me.

I, I have to say that I think you've got a powerful combination going for you. Um, if you combine emotional competency, which you have, with obviously a legal education, a lot of really good experience, I mean, that's a combination that's so rare and it's so powerful. So good for you. I mean, I'm trying to teach people the skills that you're talking about. That's what I do now. I teach people how to become emotionally competent. Which gets me to my next question. I teach them, people learn how to be emotionally competent by learning how to listen, strangely enough. And I mean, it's quite powerful the way it works. So let me ask you, how powerful is listening in everything that you do, your entrepreneurial work, your legal work?

Oh, I think it's absolutely essential and critical. It's, Yeah, you've got to be able to listen. And a lot of times listening isn't just, you know, hearing the initial words. You got to kind of dig deeper a lot of the times and look beyond. And, you know, I've learned one thing I learned very early on in my legal career as far as, you know, how to be an effective lawyer was you've got to be able to ask questions. And I think as a new lawyer, I was hesitant, I was scared. I didn't want to ask a dumb question. And I think as you build that confidence and learn like, no, I do know what I'm doing and asking questions is just really a part of this job and digging in. I'm much more comfortable with it now, but at the start it was, I didn't realize that that was kind of a given that you had to do. Maybe it seems obvious, but it took me a little bit to latch onto that.

Yeah, asking questions is a big part of being a lawyer, asking good questions and knowing how to ask questions and then knowing what to listen for. So for example, today I teach people, if we're dealing with emotions, I tell people ignore the words. But I teach people how to listen to words, how to listen for intended meaning, and how to listen for emotions. And when you put all three of those together, you gain so much more information than you would if you just listened to words. And as lawyers, we're trained to listen to words. We're not trained to listen to meaning or emotions. Yeah. So, and I think that's a, that's a, that's a big, big deficit. I wish I, I wish I had the skills that I have today. I wish I had them back when I was a trial lawyer. It would've made a big difference. Yeah.

A lot.

Yeah.

Well, and it's just something, I mean, I'm sure I learned so much from you because it is a skill that you can just continue to always be building upon and getting better at.

That's right. So that's right.

How have you—

Oh, go ahead.

Yeah. I was just gonna ask as far as listening and going beyond the words, you know, One thing that stood out to me is that I do feel like when you're in person, you can really glean from the body language, um, how, you know, how a person's reacting, and it kind of allows you to, to dig to that next level. But I was just curious your thoughts on, you know, in, in recent days and kind of post-pandemic world, so much has moved to virtual interactions, and if you found that.

I find that being on a Zoom call like this or doing recordings, or I do mediations and arbitrations on Zoom now for the most part, I find it's actually easier to read people's emotions virtually than it is in person because there are less distractions. We see people's faces close up, so we can see the micro movements in the facial expressions. Much easier than we can in a live setting. And so I found it to be even easier virtually than in person, which is really, really interesting. A lot of people didn't think that. A lot of mediators felt that doing virtual mediations, you'd miss the body language and all the unconscious communication, which is 94% of all communication is non-verbal. Yeah, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

That's interesting. Yeah, I was just curious that— that—

yeah, and that's why I, I think all of my mediator colleagues that I know of have essentially abandoned in-person mediations and, and are now doing virtual mediations. And there's good reason for it. I mean, I had a mediation a month ago involving Peruvian avocados. And I had a lawyer in Paris. I had her client from Peru was in, at the moment in Toronto. The defense lawyer was in Temecula, California, down in Southern California. And his client, his, I'm sorry, he was in Florida. The defense lawyer was in Florida, Naples, Florida, and his client was in Temecula. And we did a mediation on Zoom and, you know, we got the case settled, you know, 2, 3, or 4 hours. And that was, that would've been unheard of 4 years ago.

Right.

Unheard of.

That's great.

And, you know, yesterday I had a mediation where I had a lawyer in Southern California and the defense team was here in Central California. Again, he didn't have to travel. I didn't have to drive an hour down to Tulare and we didn't get the case settled. But the point is that we can bring people in from all over the world via Zoom and it's very effective. Um, so, and, and I, as I understand, because I'm a student of communication and listening and understanding how this all works through neuroscience, you know, I, I find that, um, like I said, the ability to pick up on cues is even easier than it would be when we're in person once you're trained. Now it takes training, it's not just something we naturally do, but once you're trained in how to do it it's really effective.

So that makes sense. Well, thanks for sharing that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really goes, it really goes back to evolutionary biology. Very, very briefly, because it is so interesting to me. Now you got me started on it.

I love it.

We learned as hominids, we started developing the ability to have vocabulary and speak 230,000 years ago. And that ability developed over about a 25,000-year period as we mastered fire, we could now render animal fat and meat, which increased, dramatically increased calorie intake. And that caused a massive expansion in our brain and particularly an expansion of the hypoglossal nerve and muscle that controls our larynx. So now we have the physical ability to actually create language. And so over a long period of time, started with proto-language and then language, and that got us into abstract thinking and you know, and that's what led to the development of civilization. But for millions of years before that, hominids did not have the ability to speak. How did they communicate? They communicated nonverbally. And so our brains are hardwired to read the nonverbal communication. There was a very famous study done by a guy by the name of Albert Mehrabian back in the 1960s that showed that 94% of all communication is nonverbal and only Only 6% is verbal words. So that's why when I'm training people how to de-escalate angry people, I can say ignore the words. Yeah, you don't need to listen to the words. Pay attention to everything else.

That's a really interesting statistic. I, I would have never thought it was so much, but I mean, it makes total sense, and especially in light of all the history you explained.

Right.

None of that.

So yeah, there's a neuroscientist by the name of Simon Baron-Cohen in London who has studied— he's He's basically studying autism, and he's developed what's known as the Reading Mind and Emotions Test, which is sort of the gold standard for checking out people on the autistic spectrum. And now it's that test— that test is now being used to test people for emotional intelligence because basically you're shown 37 different faces and you have to associate emotions with the facial expressions. How well can you read? How well can you read emotions in people's faces. Obviously, if you score low, that's an indicator that you might be suffering somewhere along the autistic spectrum. For people who could also be alexithymic, I teach with that tool. I have my students go through it. It's always interesting to look at. Anyways, one more question for you and I'll let you go because I know you're a busy woman. What is one thing about yourself, Kelly, that's unique that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us? I love asking this question.

I know. I feel like that's a tough one. What do I have that's unique about me?

You wouldn't know about.

That you wouldn't know about.

Unless you reveal it to us, we would never guess.

Well, so one, like, this is kind of a fun fact, is as a child, we took a trip to Universal Studios, and I appeared on one of those Nickelodeon game shows and actually won, like, won that particular contest. I don't know if anybody recalls, you know, watching those challenges as children, but that was kind of—

that's pretty, pretty interesting and pretty different.

A pinnacle childhood moment appearing on that.

So I suppose, I suppose you were probably pretty competitive as a kid.

I was, I was, I was definitely competitive. So winning that challenge was exciting. Um, unfortunately, the prize was, you know, not $100,000 or anything like that. It was some glow-in-the-dark sports balls. So I was disappointed by my prize, but at least, you know, I had a short-term claim to fame. There you go. But I don't think many people at this point in my life would know about that anymore. And I think the videos are fortunately also long lost.

Well, thank you so much for your time today. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

I did as well. Thank you, Doug. Thank you so much for having me today.

You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes. Go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team.

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