89 - Empowering Low-Income Students with an Innovative Approach to Entrepreneurship with NFTE's J.D. LaRock

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

JD LaRock, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO and president of the Network for Teaching Entrepreneurship, found at nfte.com. I guess you call it nifty, huh?

We do, we do. Thanks. Appreciate the opportunity to be with you.

Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about your backstory.

You're like me, you're a lawyer. Well, trained as a lawyer, J.D., but you also have a doctorate in education. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, well, I'm a native of Queens, New York, and very much identify as a native New Yorker. And I would say that, you know, growing up and all throughout my life, I was always interested in the intersection of politics and policy and education. I come from a family of educators. My mother and father were both teachers. They became principals, ultimately administrators. I have a younger brother who is 15 years into being an elementary school teacher in Corona, Queens. So education has been the family vocation, but I took it in a slightly different direction in that I was always interested in learning how policy and practice could make education better for students in the country and around the world. And that's ultimately what led me to NIFTY. Long story before then, I started working for, started my career working as a spokesperson for the New York City school system and then kind of switched sides and became a television reporter for the local news reporting on the very schools chancellor whom I had served, which was an interesting, It was a great job, I'm sure you can imagine. And then after going to get my doctorate, I began working for political leaders. So I spent several years working for the late Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts, helping him advance student loan legislation and laws to help students pay for college. And then went to work for the administration of Governor Deval Patrick of Massachusetts. And then right before NIFTY, Governor Charlie Baker. So it's been a great career and has led me to do what I'm doing now.

Wow.

Well, you, you know, I know that from your, from the interview I did with you from, with Authority Magazine, that you went to law school to become a legislative lawyer. Tell us about that.

Yeah. You know, not many people know about this. So I really had no interest in being a courtroom lawyer. I didn't want to be a prosecutor. I was very fascinated by the language of legislation and I sought out a law school, in this case Georgetown, that taught that. Not many, not many schools do, but I had the wonderful opportunity opportunity to be taught by a man named Blair Crownover, who at the time was the head of the U.S. Senate's legislative drafting office. And he taught me and my colleagues, you know, really how to write a law in good ways. And it's a niche skill that has served me well at various points in my career. You can imagine working for all the politicians I have, my main job has been to write laws, and I've been, you know, formally educated into knowing how to do so.

That's really interesting. Um, I— my career was, uh, started off as a civil trial lawyer for 22 years, and then I went back to school and got my master's degree and became a peacemaker. And, uh, so it's a little different. But, but when I was in law school, we—

our law—

I was on the law review, and our law review reviewed California legislation every year. And so that's, that's where I learned about legislative intent and legislative history, but I didn't have the kind of schooling that you had. Really interesting.

It is really interesting. And you learn about things like how the placement of a comma matters and how one word as opposed to another can make a real difference. And, you know, you read cases that go through the Supreme Court these days that focus in on these very, very minute things. They can have big consequences. So, you know, particularly at the federal level, when you're dealing with bills that are moving literally billions and billions of dollars, how you structure the legislation really matters. Now, of course, You have help, so it's not just, not, not just yourself drafting, but, uh, but those baseline skills was, uh, were really great to have.

So tell us a little bit about Nifty, the Network for Teaching Entrepreneurship.

Now, Nifty was founded in 1987 by a Bronx school teacher named Steve Mariotti, and he recognized in his students that they had an entrepreneurial drive that wasn't really being, um, nurtured. In the type of education that they were receiving. And so he founded the organization. And these days, 37 years later, uh, we are in 30 states and in 24 countries around the world. And our mission is to educate students on the ins and outs of how to start a business. And we focus exclusively on communities in need, so low-income communities, communities where the type of business education that others might get through their families, through their networks, through the colleges they go to, but that those opportunities don't exist in the neighborhoods that we serve. And some of our alumni, some of our program graduates are heads of companies that you would know. So I'll name just one, Robert Refkin, who's the founder and CEO of the real estate platform Compass, which is a national and global company. He got his start at a Nifty Biz Camp in Oakland about 20 years ago. And we can— I could take all our time describing, uh, small business owners who have gone through our program, but, um, I'll say one more word and is that our programs typically are offered as formal classes within the school day. And so our staff trains teachers, public school teachers largely, how to offer our curriculum. And we also provide a lot of support from our own staff and from the companies that help fund our mission.

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. How does the model work? So, so, so do, do teachers come to you in Massachusetts? So for workshops, or do you send trainers out? How does— how is the knowledge dispensed?

It's both ways. So we just had a big educator summit in Florida where we do a lot of work. We have more than 20,000 students in Florida alone. And we also have staff members who visit the schools or who do online sessions to train and support the teachers and the students. And like I said, our model is funded by philanthropy largely. We're a 501, we're a charity. And, and so the companies that we work with— EY, Mary Kay, SAP, Goldman Sachs, Intuit— I could go on and on— PayPal— they will provide grant funding, but they'll also make their employees available to serve as mentors and coaches and competition judges. Every NIFTY program culminates with a pitch competition that starts at the local level and goes to the regional level., and then goes on up to the national and now the global level. So it's a wonderful, wonderful sequence of events. Our student competitors really love it. The teachers love it, and students can win money to help fund their businesses.

That's amazing. How many students do you typically engage in a year?

This year we've served— this past school year we've served about 43,000 students in the US and another 10,000 globally.

That's pretty significant. And you're in 30 states?

30 states, that's correct.

Wow, that's an amazing impact. I, um, you must get up in the morning saying, oh boy, I'm getting to do good today, more good today.

I do. I really, I really love it. And I'll tell you, I, um, I'll tell you why I came to NIFTY. When I had been working for Governor Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, one of the things our organization did— I was the head of the Workforce Development Authority— one of our, the things that we did was we ran education for the juvenile justice system. So we were providing education to students who were incarcerated. The signature program, the most successful program, was an entrepreneurship program. And I saw young people who were serving time, they were incarcerated, but they were also actively running businesses from behind the wall— culinary businesses or shoe repair businesses or artistic ventures. And I was really touched by the fact that entrepreneurship sparked something that really gave a sense of self and a sense of self-efficacy to those young learners. And I thought I thought to myself, if that is the case in this kind of setting, which is a tough setting, then imagine what it can do for students in different communities as a course in the course of the normal school day. And that's exactly what we find. I mean, students and teachers say all the time, what you do, what NIFTY does, what entrepreneurship education is, it looks and feels and plays out so differently than the other classes that they take or that they teach. And I think in addition to being something fun and something that helps students develop develop financial literacy and actual literacy and numeracy. It's also just a great way to learn. And I think that we are ultimately at the cusp of a movement to inform how American education and education globally could be, because every time I go out to a school, I get the same comment. I wish I had this when I was a young person. There needs to be more of this. And so that's what we're trying to do.

I gotta tell you, JD, you're sending shivers up and down my back. Um, I am the co-founder of Prison of Peace, and we go into maximum security prisons for the last 13 years training murderers how to be peacemakers to stop prison violence. And we had exactly the same experience you're talking about, teaching incarcerated people. We've worked in juvenile too, but mostly with adults, both in men and women's prisons, teaching them the fundamental skills it takes to be a peacemaker to stop violence. And number one, I, we always got the same thing. If I, if I had learned these skills 20 years ago, I wouldn't be in prison today. And number two, we finally learned that we need to take the skills outside of prison. And that's what I do today is, is, is teach these skills outside. And as we were talking before we recorded, I've worked in, I've worked in schools teaching teachers and administrators how to de-escalate angry parents and, and students to, and it's a, it's just miraculous to see what happens. But it's the same thing. And it's so gratifying. I can just see the glow in you and the gratification you get from this work. And I know it myself because I've experienced it. And it's just so cool to be in a place where you know you're really making a big difference.

Yeah, absolutely. And we have a great team supporting us. So we have staff members who are placed throughout the country who are organized as 7 domestic regions. And so we have teams in Massachusetts and New York and Florida and Illinois and Texas and California and lots of other places. These are very dedicated staff members, largely educators who have been classroom teachers and administrators and who, like me and like you, understand the difference that this type of education can make.

Wow. So what is it that's unique that you bring to the table?

Huh. Thanks for asking. You know, I guess, I guess that It ultimately connects back to what we were just talking about, which is that we're of course interested in enrolling more students each year and running a high-quality organization and showing the value proposition that we provide both in terms of academic learning, but also in helping students start businesses. But I would say two things. Number one, I'm also ultimately interested in connecting the dots between this current role and my former roles where I was working on policies to make American schools better. And I do think that entrepreneurship education is a missing element in much of education. You know, you see this in the public discourse on education today. About 12 or 15 states now over the past several years have passed bills encouraging financial literacy. Well, what is entrepreneurship? Entrepreneurship is another built-out form of financial literacy. So we're starting to see a groundswell where policymakers and educators and people at large are recognizing that for all of the good things that happen in US education, there have been some things that are missing. And part of my call and campaign, part of my motivation is to bring that message to policymakers because they can really embed entrepreneurship into laws and policies and funding streams that can help it to grow. That's number one. The second thing is, goes back to our mission, which again is focused on underserved communities. Entrepreneurship As we can see from who is represented in the ranks of CEOs, it has not always been for everybody, but we think entrepreneurship should be for everybody. And so we, we spend a lot of time building the next generation of diverse entrepreneurs. We, I will often say that our mission is to build the next generation of diverse entrepreneurs, and I think we're doing just that, and that makes us unique.

Wow, that's amazing. Um, I do think that people in underserved areas, low-income areas, have a latent entrepreneurial streak. I mean, I can think of so many people that I've trained in prison who had that streak in them, and just because of bad choices, they end up behind bars. But, uh, you know, you hear their stories and there's this spirit that these people have that, you know, drives them to do what they can even though they have extremely limited resources. And what, what you're doing is taking that drive that I— that latent drive that I know is there and allowing it to blossom, which I think is phenomenal.

And do you want to know why that drive is there? It, it's precisely because of the circumstances that these folks in these communities find themselves in. And you see this in immigrant communities as well. When you don't have embedded systems and pathways to economic opportunity or to privilege. All you have is yourself and your own creativity. And I saw a very poignant definition one time of entrepreneurship, and the definition was entrepreneurship is the ability to carry forward and create something irrespective of resources.

Oh, I love that.

I thought that was great because I see our learners doing that all the time. So it's not just a latent talent, it's because of those circumstances that young people in deprived communities or immigrant communities who don't have access to the embedded social structures of our society, it's why they become entrepreneurs. And to our society's benefit, you know, the US was founded on the idea of free enterprise, on individual achievement. And our young entrepreneurs are, I think, living out the ideals of our country in some very powerful ways.

That's really wonderful. So this podcast is called Listening with Leaders because I believe that listening is kind of a foundational skill of life. How important have you found listening to be in your career?

I think listening is critical. I, again, I heard— I can't remember what leader said it, but some years ago, I saw a placard that said that leadership is mostly about listening. And I would say that that's true. And, you know, in leading NIFTY, in leading the other organizations where I've been CEO, I've learned that leadership is not about the leader coming forth with a vision that's fully formed, you know, like Pallas Athena springing fully formed from Zeus's head, and it's all perfect. It's really about eliciting from your team what it is they think should be done and how to do it. And that process of listening and drawing out insights from your team is crucial because number one, you get bet— more and better ideas when you're open to hearing what people have to say and acknowledging that they have a point of view and an expertise that you might not have. But number two, it's crucial to the process of buy-in. You can't get anywhere without a team that's behind you. I was just in a meeting before this, we're recording this podcast, where I was saying just this to a couple of my team members, that what we do as an organization, my quote unquote successes or failures really rest on what the organization does or doesn't do. I will remember who said this quote, because I love this quote, former Speaker of the House John Boehner. Said, you know, you got to have followers. A leader without followers is just a guy taking a walk. And so, don't you love that? I love that.

Yeah, that's great.

And again, I think it speaks to the necessity of really listening to the people around you so that they have buy-in, so that they can make their voices heard, and that they can walk a path with you instead of pulling people in a place where they may or may not want to go.

Yes, I found that— I found that, to your point, that when people feel validated and they feel deeply heard, they will— they will be intensely loyal to you and follow you, even though they may disagree with the decision you might make. They will still so deeply have so much gratitude for you because you take the time to listen them into existence that they don't care. And the leaders that engage in that old command and control style, and they're angry and they're tempestuous and, you know, try to control by ego, those people don't do well these days. The leaders that take the time to truly listen, again, to your point, are the ones that people will follow.

Yeah, you know, to your point, I've told you I've worked for a variety of high-profile leaders and politicians, and without naming names, I will say that I've encountered leaders over the years who have sought to lead by, by fear or by force. And I will say that in the short term, that can be effective, but it doesn't engender loyalty. It doesn't engender good feelings. It's not a long-term leadership strategy and ultimately is not effective. One current US leader who I very much admire is Senator Sherrod Brown. Of Ohio, who is— he's a professor by, by background, so he's an educator. So I think he's very well schooled in the idea of understanding how to draw insights from the people around him, and his comportment couldn't be better. Can I tell you a story about him?

Absolutely.

Something that really, really made an impact on me like 20 years later. So You mentioned listening to people and really seeing them and acknowledging that they exist. So at the time I was working for Senator Kennedy, and I was so impressed by the fact— we were negotiating a bill, and I was so impressed by the fact that Senator Brown knew me by name. I hadn't talked to him, but his staffer had said, oh, JD is Senator Kennedy's staffer. He's the one in charge of these negotiations. And when I had occasion to meet Senator Brown, he said, oh, JD. It's really good to meet you. And I can't tell you what that— how much that little gesture meant to me, because it meant that he saw me, he respected me, he acknowledged my role in the process, and it made me like him. And unlike some other unnamed politicians that I could mention, I just thought that that was a fantastic way of being a leader.

Yeah, that's amazing. So how much of this, uh, of these— I noticed that when I was looking at the website the NIFTY website, I was kind of trying to get a sense of the curriculum, and I saw some, some references to communication and collaboration. What exactly is the curriculum that you use that teaches that to your, to your students?

So our curriculum is centered around what we call the 8 domains of the entrepreneurial mindset, and some are skill sets that everybody will know, like communication and collaboration, critical thinking, problem solving. But it's also some skills that people don't necessarily think of, like opportunity recognition, the ability to manage risk, the ability to have an orientation toward the future. So there are 8 skills in all, and really the curriculum is meant to do 2 things at the same time. One is to walk learners through the mechanics of building a business plan. So taking the kernel of an idea, figuring out how to develop it, beginning to put it on paper, beginning to understand who your market is, what your— who your competition is, how to finance the business, practical things like that. But equally important is the development of those entrepreneurial mindset domains. And so our programs really have two endgames. One is we hope that each learner who goes through our program comes out the other end with a high-quality business plan that they can use to actually launch a business. And many NIFTY learners do as high school students, even as middle school students. But beyond that, we also test students on the development of these entrepreneurial mindset domains. So we have exams, um, tests that pre and post measure where they were in terms of communication, collaboration, future orientation, and where they are after the NIFTY program. And I'm very pleased to report that, you know, far and away students develop all of these skills after being in our programs. Typical NIFTY program is a year-long program, although we do it in semester, we do intensive summer camps, there are various iterations of it, but students make very big gains. And contrary to stereotypes, women outperform young men.

Well, I have no doubt.

Almost all of these domains.

I have no doubt.

Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that because, you know, it's— there is this persistent stereotype that women are not as interested in being business owners as men, or they don't necessarily have the the personality for it. We actually see quite the opposite, that young women have all of those skills and then some and regularly outperform the boys in terms of where they start and where they end up after the program.

We're seeing this in formal education too. I'm the chair of the board of trustees of our local law school, and these days we see— first of all, we see that it's a highly diverse— I live in the Central Valley of California, Central California, so extremely diverse, very poor. But, but 75% of our students are women.

Yeah, you know, we have so many similarities. I'm the chair of the board of trustees of my local community college here.

Well, there you go.

And similarly, about 68% of our students are women. Women, women these days are really leading when it comes to persistence in education and educational attainment. And like I said, entrepreneurship too.

Right. So I want to cycle back for a few minutes So are you— do you have formal courses in communication and collaboration, or are those skills that are just learned kind of as the kids are doing projects and working on teams and doing that sort of stuff?

They're units and modules in the course, and so they are explicitly and, you know, named and developed, and it's both direct and contextualized.

Okay. Interesting, huh? And I'm just sort of blown away by the whole thing, to tell you the truth. It's such a cool project. I mean, I just— I'm sort of floored. I'm kind of speechless about it. I'm just thinking about the impact that you're having, that NIFTY is having, and that you leading the organization is having. Um, I'm just struck by what a unique and powerful way of teaching this is, because the kids are not only learning entrepreneurial skills but all the formal stuff that they're learning— how to write, how to think, how to solve problems, learning some— learning how to apply, you know, even basic arithmetic to financial statements, that sort of thing.

Yeah, and it's practical knowledge. Sometimes we talk about it as like stealth education because we actually, you know, we're— you know, a student may not be interested in a math class as it's typically delivered because they can't see how it's relevant to their day-to-day life. But if you tell them, you know, you need to learn this because it's going to help you develop this idea and this passion that you have, and by the way, you can make money by pursuing this, that usually gets students' attention. I often start out gatherings of students by asking them, how do people like to make money here? How many people like money? Of course, every hand goes up, particularly young people. And so what we provide really taps into those motivations and those skills. I'm glad, I'm glad for your speechlessness because I really do think we're beginning to get the recognition for the value of what we provide. Recently, one particular program we have called the World Series of Innovation, which is kind of like a shorter program, an on-ramp to deeper NIFTY programs, it was recognized by the World Economic Forum as a so-called education lighthouse. So a banner program really, along with maybe about a dozen other programs around the world that are seen as providing education and skill building that is special and that the model is unique and different. I think the model is unique and different, and I encourage your listeners to reach out to us if they are piqued by what we've been talking about.

Yeah, nft.com. One more question, we're kind of at the end of the half hour. What is it— what's one thing about yourself that we would not even know about unless you revealed it to us?

Hmm. Oh, there's so many things, uh, but, but probably because it's not a work thing, that I, um, that I am on a quest, uh, to visit all 30 Major League Baseball stadiums.

Oh my God.

And I'm up to 21.

Wow.

And so I've got I've got 9 to go, and I was just talking to my wife about whether she could see her way clear to a little Midwest sprint where we could knock out about 6 of them in short order. So there's, you know, everybody, everybody needs a hobby and a passion. I like baseball. It's a, you know, I'm very patriotic. It's, it's, it's an American sport. It's, it's special. I love I love the atmosphere. I actually don't watch a lot of baseball on TV, but I love being at the ballgame. And so I've been to 18 games so far this year, and I probably will do about 20, 22, or 25 before the season is up. So there you go.

All right.

Well, this has been a really amazing conversation, JD.

Thank you so much for your time today.

Oh, you're welcome, Doug, and thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. And again, I would love to encourage anyone who's listening to go to our website, www.nfte.com. Nifty.com. That's nifty.com. And, and check us out. And we would love to work with you if you are interested. So thanks again.

You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnoll.com.

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