91 - The Power of the Small Decisions you Make with Richard Moran

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes.

So let's get started. Richard Moran, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are a man of many talents and many skills. You've been a CEO, consultant, advisor. Um, today you— I think you operate your own independent company, and you can be found at richardmoran.com. Tell us a little bit about your backstory.

Well, the way you described it, it sounded like a checkered past, Doug.

So, well, I mean, you do advertise that you exceeded the expectations of your mother.

I'm, I'm the first in my family to go to college, and my mom thought because I was an English major in college that being a postal carrier would be a good career for me. Get a lot of exercise and read all day.

I was an English major too at Dartmouth, so I know what you're—

Oh yeah, so well, so yeah, so, um, I have been a CEO. Uh, in fact, uh, a recruiter from one of the big search firms called me recently and he said, you know, we have 12 million people in our database and you are the only one who's been a college president a CEO, a venture capitalist, and a big-time consultant. So good for you. I have a set of one. That doesn't make me, that doesn't make me special. It, you know what it means? It means that, um, when I don't like something, I change it. That's what it means.

I'm just thinking about that, that recruiter's filtering. They must have a client who's really looking for somebody unique. I know if they're setting that kind of a filter.

Well, then he went on to say, but the job is not for you.

I know that already.

And that's fine. I, I get that.

I, I like that attitude that, that if it's not working out for you, move on. I mean, I mean, that's— I've adopted that philosophy too, and it's led me to some really wonderful places. Um, let's talk about your work as a CEO. Um, how long were you engaged in that work?

I was a CEO of, uh, for, for a company called Creative Solutions, which ended up being sold to Resources Global. It's a company of about, uh, 1,200 people, about $150 million in revenue. And, uh, and I actually loved that job. And it was, it was interesting in, in a lot of ways because it was, uh, the company was 70% women. And yeah, and, um, which, uh, was not, not a challenge at all. It was just, you know, um, how can I put this? It was Uh, very— it was a very flexible organization, and, and I, and I like that. Um, one of the things I did there that I think you might appreciate is, um, the systems in the company were very up to date, very, very technical. And there were 10 different offices, each one had very complex systems, and there were pivot tables and complex spreadsheets and performance indicators and flux capacitors. Who knows what else there was involved here.

A lot of jargon.

A lot of stuff. And finally, I said, you know, what I want every week is a magic number. I know every— that at the end of the week, if our revenue hits $6 million, I'm gonna have a good weekend. If it didn't, we have to have a large— a different conversation on Monday. So it was a good example for me of how business— I'm proud that one of the skills I have as a CEO or a leader is I try to clarify things and simplify things. And I've done that in every role I've had. And in the book that we're going to talk about later, it's all about clarifying and simplifying. And I think sometimes we, we as leaders make things a little too complicated.

I agree. I teach a course at Pepperdine called Decision Making Under Stress and Uncertainty, and I emphasize the critical nature of keeping it simple because you can get overwhelmed by data and it doesn't improve your decision making.

No.

So you've been a college president. Tell us about that.

I have. Well, it's not for the faint-hearted.

I don't think so.

It's a wildly fascinating and interesting job. The number of stakeholders that a college president needs to satisfy is limitless. And that's what makes the job so difficult because lots of times the needs of those stakeholders are at each other's— are at odds with each other. So because of that, it's a job that's hard to keep everyone happy. But the best part about the job for any of your leaders out there who are considering it— well, actually, you should call me before you take any of those jobs.

But the best part of it it is the students.

I'm, I'm still a firm believer that in, in a person's life, uh, there's sort of a BC and an AD in their life, and that is typically college. That's where you learn a lot about yourself. You learn about where you fit in in the world, uh, you learn about your aspirations and, uh, ambitions. And, uh, so what the best part of being a college president was a, uh, was dealing with the students. I made a lot of changes as a college president, which is something that is never popular.

So I can't think of an institution that is more fragmented and bureaucratic than a, than a college or a university.

A quick story is, uh, the college had 3 departments that were sort of redundant. It was English, Communications, Public Relations. It's all sort of It's sort of close. And so I said, we need to break down these silos to the faculty. And one of the faculty members said, these are not silos, these are cylinders of excellence. And I said, it doesn't matter whether it's a silo or a cylinder, we're going to break them down.

That's funny.

Yeah, but that's— it's hard to make changes at a at a college. Being a college president is more like being a mayor than it is like— than being a CEO.

Got it. Huh. So you did that for a while. You've also been a big-time consultant. Tell us about that.

Yeah, I love that job. I was a partner at Andersen Consulting, which became Accenture. And, um, I love— you know, there, there's a— there's, there can be sort of a heroic element to being a consultant. You know, if the client could figure it out themselves, they'd do it. They wouldn't bring in expensive consultants. But Uh, so I liked that. I liked the variety. I liked, um, working with clients and making them more successful. I like building teams, um, and, uh, my clients were some of the biggest companies in the world. And, uh, and there is a, uh, a skill that I have that I know we're going to talk about, and that is listening. There are two kinds of consultants: those that yell at you for how screwed up you are, and those who listen to what the situation is and then make recommendations. And I was definitely in that second category.

And it's the second category is going to move the needle the largest, I think.

Yeah, it is. No one likes to be yelled at. And, you know, consultants get accused of, you know, borrowing a watch and then saying what time it was. But nonetheless, sometimes you look at the watch differently. Sometimes listening Listening to, again, the stakeholders and helping leaders clarify what the options are is a good way to help them make decisions.

Exactly. So, so all of this vast experience over many, many years has led to a new book. Tell us about that.

Yeah, um, we've been flirting with the book in our entire conversation so far. Um, the name of the book, the title of the book is Never Say Whatever.

Never. Whatever.

Yeah, well, that's, that's, to me, that was just like putting a fingernail on a blackboard. It just is, it's just an ear— such an irritating word. And, and I wrote the book for, for two reasons. One is a lot of people say it, and if they don't say the word, you know, it could be, you know, you roll your eyes or you shrug your shoulders or you give somebody the finger. It could be, could be expressed in a lot of different ways. Um, but two things happen when you say the word. One is that you send out the signal that you're a slacker or stoner, you don't care, you're a loser, you're wishy-washy. That's, that's bad enough. But the second thing that happens when you say whatever is you don't make a decision. And, and it's the small decisions that make for a successful career or a successful life or a successful leader. I did— there's been some research done at Cornell that I love, and it's all about decision-making. As a decision-making guy, you know probably about this, because sometimes I'll, I'll say, you know, about the book, I'll say, "Never say whatever," and they'll say, "Well, I only say whatever when it comes to a small decision." Well, they're almost all small decisions. Cornell has— these researchers discovered that we make about 35,000 decisions a day.

I believe that.

A thousand, you know, right? Real time. I had to decide with you, uh, A, am I going to do this? B, am I going to comb my hair? See, you know, what's the background? You know, I mean, just think, in the last 5 minutes, you and I have made hundreds of small decisions.

That's right.

And every time we said whatever, something— we weren't going to get what we might have wanted. So So that's what the book is about. And it's not—

it's—

there's hundreds of books written about decision-making, as you well know. This is not about pivot tables and complex design. This is about the— you know, the whole book is in the title. If you stop saying whatever, better things will happen.

Pay attention to what's going on in your life. Don't dismiss stuff because you're lazy or you're ignorant.

Yeah. Simple as that.

And take and make concrete.

I love it.

It makes total sense for me. If you make, if you make in every moment of your life, make the best decision you can make, you're going to lead a good life.

Yeah, it is that.

It's that simple.

I mean, it's just, you know, I've been talking about the book quite a while, and one of the stories that came up was a woman said, um, told me that sometimes, uh, her husband will come home for dinner and she'll say, what do you want for dinner? And he'll say, whatever. And she said she just wants to slap him because it's dismissive. That's right, it's dismissive. And he just may not care, but— and, or he may not, you know, if he, he should get what he wants, or she— he should get what they both want. Not— it shouldn't— it's a dismissive word among other things. So it's not, it's not benign, uh, it is, it is toxic, and it has so many uses, right?

And how do you think the, the word evolved into our modern vocabulary over the last, what, 30 years?

Yeah, well, some people point to the movie Clueless. Remember Alicia Silverstone would, you know, she'd make the W with her friends like loser, whatever, right? It's been around for a while, but I think COVID and, you know, the situation in the world can lead to apathy and people feel helpless. But so I think it has been— I also think that decision-making is hard and there's a lot of them to make, you know, when they pile up. I mean, think of your email this morning when you tested it. You were making hundreds of little decisions. The easy ones were the delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. And there's a whole bucket of others you really have to make some decisions about. Sometimes you just get weary of making the decisions, but you still need to make them. And, and I think one of the, one of the things I do in the book is talk about just simple tools that we can use to help make small decisions, even small decisions.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And, and when you get to bigger decisions, the, the principle I teach is, oh, you go through your whole analysis, pick, get your data, look at all your options, all that, all the usual stuff. But at the end, always ask, what if I'm wrong?

Yeah, well, for the big decisions, we, we need to pay attention to those in a different way. But again, the research has found that in our lives there's only about 12 big decisions. There's not A lot of them. It's your career, it's where you live, who you— your relationships, it's your faith, it's children, it's whether or not to get a dog. I mean, I, I challenge people to name more than 10 big decisions and they can't in their personal lives, right? Yeah. And, and even in their careers, you know. So, so those decisions require, you know, looking at the data, you know, listening to people, narrowing your options, and then using skills, whatever they might be, to make the big decision. But it's the little ones are the ones that I focus on, because you're— the textbooks that you use are all about the big decisions, right?

Yeah, it is. And we get into, um, we get into actual how the decision-making process actually occurs in the brain. Yeah, start studying neuroeconomics, which is really fascinating, that fascinating new field. All right, well, let's, let's pivot to my favorite topic, listening. Yours too.

Yeah, it's one of them.

Tell me about listening from your perspective.

Well, I've already alluded to the fact that I'm, I am a listening, uh, consultant. So I, and I love listening to people at all levels in an organization because people will tell you the truth. People, I have always found when I work with organizations, whether large or small, tech or not, as you, as I do focus groups or interview people, people tell you what's on mind. They want to talk to someone about what's going on in an organization. So I pride myself on being able to listen carefully and distill the information that I hear and then put it into packages so that people can make decisions. Um, so I am an avid— I took some counseling classes in graduate school which were actually very helpful in, in developing some listening skills, asking the right questions and so on.

So in my business, I'm, you know, a lawyer turned peacemaker. I have a law degree and a master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies, and I walk into organizational conflicts and help people sort it out. What I find important, as opposed to when I was a trial lawyer where listening was all about gathering information, today in my work, listening is about validating other people. Yeah, I call it listing them into existence.

Yeah.

And what I found is when we are able to do that, people become very loyal, they become very motivated, and they will, they will become, they will follow you as a leader that everyone wants to follow.

Yeah. One of the things I discovered, it's a, one of the highlights of the book, I think. I interviewed a woman, her name is Leila Lance. She's a very effective leader. And when she hears the word whatever, when someone talks to her and says whatever, she listens and she says, tell me what that means. Oh, tell me what you mean when you say that. And it really puts people into a spot where they, where they try to express themselves and explain themselves, that she can listen about what they're really saying and, and work on it. And It's just a classic case of a simple act of listening can help get rid of whatever.

That's right. And get them to really— sometimes people are saying whatever because they don't want to confront whatever it is that they have to deal with.

Well, yeah.

And asking the right question and listening in the right way can help people uncover their insecurity or their fear or their anxiety.

Well, I learned this as a consultant. Sometimes whatever means you make the decision for me and I'll blame you later, which happened more than once.

I can believe that.

Yeah, but it can mean you make the decision for me and I'll blame you later, which, you know, may not— I mean, it can be like, I have a burrito here, do you want to split it? Whatever. Well, when they eat the whole burrito, you're not going to be happy, right? I mean, it's simple. Again, simple. But listening— I love this, you know, listening is— you learn a lot.

Absolutely. I'm looking at all the books in your bookcase there. What's, what's the, what's the theme that runs through all the books?

Um, well, these, the books are everything from fiction to Tom Peters to business and management, Peter Drucker. Um, I am not a, uh, uh, I don't want to say the theme is listening, but I'm not science fiction. I'm not, you know, monsters and mysteries. I'm more sensitive. I'm more of a, I'm more of a story guy. I like, just like you learn in children's books, I like stories that have, that start with once upon a time, and then in the middle there's a page that says, 'One day.' It's a key, key page, and then it has an ending. So I like stories that have an arc— beginning, a middle, and an end. And that's what a lot of these books are.

Oh, great. Excellent. I know, because I, I have a lot of books too, and it's— I always contemplate in my life, where do all these books come from? A lot of the books, a lot of the books are, are resource books for in my work.

But it breaks my heart today that people— well, A, a lot of people don't read, and B, that people throw away books. They're heavy, nobody wants to move them. And you know what, so if anybody, any of your listeners have books they don't want, call me.

I, I see books as sacred. Yeah, I've always felt— maybe that's our English literature background, I don't know.

Well, well, as an author, I mean, you, you know how hard it is to write a book.

Just a second, editors, take this out. That phone should have come off. Okay. Fortunately, we get to edit that. Oh, come on. Is that, is your pacemaker overheating or, uh, no, those are, that's a second line that no one ever calls. So those are all probably junk calls. Calls coming in.

Yeah, we get those too.

Drives me nuts. Yeah, I should unplug the phone, but I don't. I forget, to be truthful, I forget.

Well, you know, but hey, it's such an example. You could have, you know, you could have said, whatever, nobody will hear that, I hope Moran doesn't hear it, let's just keep going. But you didn't. It's a— it will be a better podcast because you didn't just say whatever, right?

Well, no, I'm not going to say— I don't say whatever. I mean, I think part of— I'm interested in your take on this. I think from my personal perspective as an educator and as an author and as a lawyer and peacemaker, I think I feel that our educational system has been in a really deep decline for many, many years. I'm the chair of the board of our local law school, and we're watching students come into law school who are functionally illiterate. And I'm wondering if the whatever movement isn't part of a function of the, the, the loss of critical thinking skills, the inability to deal with complexity and, and, and, and think your way through difficult problems. What do you think?

Yes, I, I think that's true. I also think that people who, uh, I once had a professor tell me, uh, I'm going to pass this kid because I won't have him in my class again next year. Yeah, even though— so I mean, it's whatever, you know, let's move them on. So I think that Part of what the people who don't say whatever know, that they're accountable for their own careers, for their own actions, and they don't say whatever.

I like that.

The leaders that I talk to, and I think, you know, you're a good example of this, the leaders that I spoke to are very clear about their intentions. And if your intentions are clear, then your decisions are easy. So if you— if your intent is to lose weight, you decide to act like you're on a diet. If your intent is to stay in shape, your decision is to take the stairs, not the elevator. If your decision is to build a customer-driven organization, or if your intent is to build a customer-driven— all the decisions follow, right? And, and the leaders that I talked to were so consistent in saying that intentions are what make decisions easy. That's—

I've never heard it phrased that way, but, but as you, as you explain it, it makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

Now maybe setting the intention is a little more difficult.

That's the hard part, because that's a decision in and of itself. It is. But the intent— I mean, so we're not talking about, you know, IBM or Apple. It could be your intent when you wake up in the morning Could be to have a good day, to accomplish one thing.

Yeah.

So you'd make decisions accordingly.

Yeah.

As opposed to having a whatever day where whatever happens, whatever happens, whatever comes across your, your mind is what you do. That's a whatever day. Nothing good happens in a whatever day.

And the title of the book again is Never Say Whatever. Never Say Whatever. I presume you can get it all the usual places.

All the usual places. And, uh, and I'm active on LinkedIn. And, uh, my— you— my website is richardmoran.com. I have fun with, with people. I stay involved.

Absolutely. One more question before I let you go, Richard. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know unless you revealed it to us?

Um, our family owns a winery in Napa. And, um, and I am living, uh, the dream that a lot of people have.

Wow, good for you.

Yeah, and I love the dirt.

You love the dirt. And so you, so you have both a winery and a vineyard?

Yeah.

And it's all estate bottled?

Yes.

Oh, that's wonderful. What kind of wine?

It's, it's red wine. Uh, and we're just outside of Calistoga, and it's a, you know, it's a, uh, spot where, uh, as you know, our lives are often driven by screen time and travel, right, and, uh, meetings. And this is exactly the opposite of all of that. And so I have a great balance.

Yeah, I was going to say, from where you live in Northern California to Calistoga, what's an hour, hour and a half maybe?

Yeah, yeah.

Terrific. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to visit with me.

Yeah, thank you, Doug.

You bet.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com. Com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.