Episode 86- Andrew Corbett

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Hi and welcome to EntreEd Talk Podcast. I'm Laura McCall, and today I'm joined by Dr. Andrew Corbett, PhD, PhD. Andrew is the Paul T. Babson Distinguished Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies and Division Chair at Babson College in Wellesley, Massachusetts. He also serves as a visiting professor of entrepreneurship at Nord University Business School and Bode, Norway. Andrew is a distinguished researcher earning recognition as one of the top 25 entrepreneurship researchers in the world. His primary areas of expertise are corporate entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship learning and cognition, and entrepreneurship education. His research has appeared in countless journeys— journals, including the Harvard Business Review and the Journal of Management Studies. As a part of his research, Andrew serves as the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor US team, which recently released its report entitled Diagnosing COVID-19 Impacts on Entrepreneurship: Exploring Policy and Remedies for Recovery. He is a McGraw-Hill Innovation Entrepreneurship Pedagogy Award winner, and prior to his academia, he spent 10 years in marketing and strategic management in the media and publication industry. Welcome, Andrew. So happy to have you here.

No, it's great to be here. I don't, I don't know what to say about that. I'm sorry you had to read all that stuff, but I guess I've done a couple of things that I'm, I'm, I'm proud of, so that's great. But it's great to be with you today, Laura. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you.

Thank you. We've been having fun before this. We'll get into the seriousness of the, of the podcast. I consider you've had such a distinguished career, Andrew, and, and a fun, I would say, entrepreneurial path the man of many talents. Can you tell our audience a little bit more about your career journey?

Yeah, sure. I think, Laura, I think like most of us, you know, when we're— I'm sure you are— when we advise young folks and we talk to them and they want some advice on their career and their journey and their path, I think many of us say things like, oh well, don't follow me because mine went all over the place. And I think what we find over time is that's, uh, that's what happens to most people, right? I think it's few of us that, you know, wake up as a, you know, a high schooler or college and go, I know I want to be a doctor, I know I want to be a, you know, whatever. And so my path, you know, took turns as most do. You know, when I got out of college, I did work, as you noted, in the media and publishing industry at that time, during a time in the, you know, in the '90s and into the aughts when the internet was coming in. So that was fun. There was a lot of crazy stuff going on. When I finished my MBA, I had the opportunity though, I moved to a new company and I was doing some strategy and M&A work. And I had the opportunity when I finished my MBA, I was doing that part-time while I was running part of this company, I had the opportunity to teach. They said, "Hey, we like what you're, you know, you answered questions kind of like a doctoral student. Have you ever thought about research? Have you thought?" And I was like, "Yeah, I have, but, you know, it's nothing I really, you know, in the top of my mind." But what happened was I taught an evening class, you know, while I was working during the day. I like to write. I was always interested not just in running businesses, but how they work, how they tick, what goes on, organizations and people and how they interact. And I started to think about that more, that the question my professor asked me. So essentially what I did at one point is I liked the teaching, I realized I like to— maybe might be interested in research, and I decided to chuck it all. And, you know, I, I left, went and got my PhD. This was in like my mid-30s. Um, at the University of Colorado, which at the time and still is one of the best places to get a PhD if you're interested in entrepreneurship. So along the way, I worked with some large companies doing corporate entrepreneurship. I was involved in some startups. And then today I do a whole lot of that teaching at Babson and a lot of advising and mentoring towards students and their startups and other folks, not just students, but people out in the real world, for lack of a better You know, I agree with you that I think most entrepreneurs have a winding path.

I like that you said you, you know, you were approached by someone who knew your work, your professor, and it gave you maybe an aha moment that I think as entrepreneurs, we, you know, if you listen, and entrepreneurs are always looking for opportunities, and it sounded like, you know, you heard something you liked and decided to follow that path. And you're right, I think that is often what, you know, a true entrepreneur does. Um, I want to dive into your research on entrepreneurship and, and mention again that you were recently named one of the top 25 researchers in the world. That's really impressive. Um, can you expand upon your work in particularly entrepreneurial learning and cognition and how it affects today's students?

Uh, yeah, sure. Um, I've always found this work I did early in my dissertation around learning and cognition, you know, I, I When I was first thinking about doing this, I thought to myself, here's an interesting question, because this is what they ask us on the research side to do. You've got to figure out what an interesting question is. As many of your listeners probably know, unfortunately, they see these research reports and they go, why is someone studying this arcane, really weird thing? We should be asking questions that are important to entrepreneurs, important to business leaders. I was experiencing in an organization that I'd start— I was asked to start a new business within the company. And when it was me and one other guy, and then we added a couple of women to the team, another guy, and we're still very entrepreneurial. But as it grew and it became 20 people and it became 40 people and got bigger, you started to have to put systems in. And I was thinking to myself, well, that's a question. At what point in time by size does an organization stop being entrepreneurial and start being sort of bureaucratic, large or whatever? You know, I came to learn, you know, that's a good question to initially ask until the professors say to you, that's not a good question. Because I think as everyone listening to this probably knows, entrepreneurship and being entrepreneurial has little to do with size. You can find small companies, 1 or 2 person operations that aren't entrepreneurial at all, and you can find large organizations that are entrepreneurial. And so that was the question that got me started. But then once I was in my doctoral program and for the first 10 years of my career doing research as a professor, It was this issue of learning and cognition because I was finding that— we're finding the way that we learn, how we think, and people have different default learning styles, all of us. I could match that up to, as you talked about earlier, this opportunity seeking and opportunity recognition. So my work has always been on, or started with, how do people think, learn, make sense of things? What are their default learning styles and how does that help them be entrepreneurial, find opportunities, and develop opportunities. So, you know, that's where that came from. And what it is, is, you know, as learners, again, people have a default— there are basically, I'll just say this, Lauren, there are 4 default learning styles, right? And people tend to learn from watching, if we simplify it, by watching, by doing, by thinking, or by feeling. And to be an active and complete learner, you have to cycle through all of them, but we all have a default that we kind of go to. And so my work looked at how do entrepreneurs leverage those different default learning styles. Is there one default? I was initially, again, naively thinking maybe one of these learning styles is better than another, and that's not the case. But they all contribute to it. So that's what I look at is how people learn and make sense and how that helps them or hinders them in certain situations to find opportunities to be entrepreneurial.

You're right, yeah, I like you use the word opportunity recognition because certainly one of the tenets of entrepreneurship. Do you have a tendency, do you feel like for one of those things? And if you have a tendency, and student feels they get locked into their own tendencies, how do you help them discover the rest of them.

Yeah, that's great. If we transfer to an education, you know, to how I use this educationally, I actually do that. Um, for me, you know, not that anyone cares, I'm probably more of a doer than anything else, right? And I fall on that. And, and those are the words we use again for practice, right, to make it just more meaning for us as laypeople. Like, there's this, you know, when we do the research, it's about abstract conceptualization and concrete, you know, all this other stuff that you know, I don't want to bore us with, but yeah, I'm more of a doer, right? I'm a doer and a bit of a thinker and a what— when I fall on it. But what I do with students, because I think this is really relevant, in my— in a couple of my courses where we begin with trying to develop opportunities, ideas, and feasibility studies, I have them take this short scale that can give them some sense of what, you know, what their default learning style is. I have them do it, but I have them do that after I take—

let—

get them out of the classroom, take them downtown, right? And when I was, you know, working in my previous place prior to Babson, we'd go downtown. I'd tell them to just go look for opportunities, come back to the classroom, and think about it. And between giving them that scale and then having them do that, I would then have them— you can map on a 2x2, right? That's where each of these learning styles fall. And I would then have people map themselves like on the board, right? Right. Or electronically. And you'd see where everybody falls, you know, anonymously or not, we could get a sense. And then I would talk about how, if you're one of these learning styles, right? Think about people who learn differently from you. Think and understand, maybe that's why you don't communicate so well. Maybe you don't get, because you have this different style. Think about if you're diametrically opposed, like, to someone. And then what I tell them is, you know, so, and how we could come together then as a team to find opportunities. But what really gets them interested is when I say, you know, and I tell them where I fall on this scale, right? I'm here, and many of them could be like in the other quadrant, so far away from me. And then I tell them and I say, What's interesting to know also is that your default learning style is also your default teaching style. And they get kind of like, ah, because then, you know, if they're diametrically opposed, they're going, oh, Andrew's going to be teaching to me in this way that I'm not comfortable with. But then I explain to them, and what I do in every class that I teach is I make assignments and exercises and everything we do to make sure that they tap into everybody's default learning style. So Some assignments tap into if you fall here, some assignments tap in if you fall here. And that way, it's fair, for lack of a better— that I'm not always teaching the same way. I'm sure I default to it, but I try not to. But that's what the learning and cognition work is all about.

What strikes me about that— I love one. I think from what I know about Babson— we'll get back to this in a minute— it's very entrepreneurial in terms of a college in general and its mindset. You reminded me of in my corporate world, we did the same sort of quadrant in marketing and sales. And maybe some of that's coming from your marketing sales background is it matters, yes, where you come from, but it matters more where the other person's coming from. And Seth Godin talks about who is your customer. And if we don't understand the customer as entrepreneurs, then, you know, we've got an issue, right?

Yep. Yep.

What about, you know, you've researched, you have published in numerous scholarly journals. Is there any one study that stuck out for you or you just, you had your own aha moments or one that was more fun than the others?

Yeah, actually, I think there's one that really is fun recently, and that connects more to, you know, education and teaching and teaching students that I found to be— it was really fun to do, which sometimes our research work— well, let me see, it's always fun, but there's, there's often drudgery along the way when you're, you know, doing data analysis and these things. But this was a different take. So Yeah, there was. It was 2 years ago, I published a study with my colleague Heidi Neck at Babson, and we were looking at entrepreneurship education. There are a lot of things that we talk about in entrepreneurship education that I'm not sure— and when I say we, I'm talking about colleges, universities, and departments that teach entrepreneurship at the collegiate level. There are things we talk about, hmm, that I'm not sure we have completely researched and really know, right? So for instance, I'm sure you know the term, we'll hear people say things like entrepreneurial mindset, and you'll hear colleges and schools and universities talk about, well, what do you do there? And we're guilty of this at Babson sometimes. So what do you do? Well, we change their mindset. You know, they come here and we give them an entrepreneurial mindset. Well, fact of the matter is that's really ill-defined. No one knows exactly what it is. A lot of schools don't know what we're doing. And quite frankly, this is becoming more and more important for colleges and universities, particularly private colleges and universities that tend to cost a lot of money. And parents like you and I are looking for outcomes on the other side. And we want to know, well, you're telling me that you're going to change my son or daughter's mindset, make them have an entrepreneurial mindset. Can you show me some data on that? Really? Do you do that? And a lot of— I know we do it at Babson. But we didn't really have the data to back it up. So this was part of a first step to do that. So we're trying to look into what that is and how it was. So what we did is we convened an expert panel, and in the research world, we call this a Delphi panel, where we asked them a series of questions to help them define these constructs so we can get some sense of what these things mean. So, you know, what we learned in that is, you know, here is what we mean by mindset. Here is what's important in entrepreneurship education. And the things that came out of that were, you know, how some schools teach, what they're doing today and now, where they're moving towards. But really the thing that came up, there was one of the things came up that was most important was the point about practice, right? This can't be theoretical. You need to practice, you need to engage. I mean, it's what we've always done at Babson. But you need to practice and engage and engage and delight your students. Um, you know, so we really sort of broke this down into 5 things and talked about, you know, what's your sort of educational instructional approach? What's the role of the educator in the classroom? Then what's the role of the student? Where's that center of learning? And what's the real entrepreneurial outcome? So like in the old days, quotes, I'll say like back in the early 2000s or in the '90s, it was very much old school where it was like, it was a pedagogical approach, right? You would have a lecture and I would be like, we refer to as the, or you would be the sage on the stage. You just get up there and pontificate and talk to them. But that puts the student in a very passive role. They're just sitting there taking this information. And the center of learning in that case was, you know, really about me, the educator, right? I'm in the front of the room. I'm telling you all this stuff I know. And it was, in that case, it was really about just telling students about what entrepreneurship was, and we really weren't doing much. I don't think there are any schools and universities that do a whole lot of that anymore. What's more likely today is that there's this move from pedagogy to what, you know, gets referred to as andragogy, because pedagogy, right, "peda" means child, and these students, at least, you know, at the high school level it might be different, and sometimes there's they're still childlike in the college, right? But, you know, andragogy, which is really about teaching adults, right? And so if you're going to teach them, you need to recognize I'm not just lecturing to them. You need to be more of a coach, right? And that the, the student's role is not just to be passive, but to be, you know, stimulating and involved. And that the center of learning isn't just about me as the teacher, but it's about both of us. So it's a shared sort of center of leaning, learning. And then the outcome is really more about mindset and learning how to do this. And in the research, Heidi and I then said, well, the next thing out on the continuum and the ideal, right, would follow this thing of what's called hootagogy, which is a next level sort of, you know, adult learning that really puts them at the center. And in that case, we as educators are just facilitators, and it's about them doing, right, not just simulating. So instead of doing simulations, they're really trying to start businesses in your class, and the center of learning is all focused on the student and what he or she needs. And the outcome isn't just learning about it, or isn't just changing your mindset, but the outcome is actually starting a real startup. Now, I don't think that's ideal, right? I think that's an option. I should— we should have renamed it something else because It depends on what the readiness to learn is and the motivation of your students. And not everyone's ready, you know, at 20 to start a business and really do it. So it matters. But that was, you know, that was really exciting to me. That was fun because it helped us really learn some things that I thought was important about how we should be teaching entrepreneurship to students.

I love that you gathered the panel. I think, you know, you're right. Sometimes we go down a path and like you said, we used to teach the sage on the stage, love that term. And to truly be a coach, I think you're right. We have to understand others and respect how others are doing things and bringing students along. We often talk about, we feel like some of the best teachers are the ones who allow a little chaos in the classroom where they really allow the student to question, right? And like you said, not everybody's ready to learn at the same point, but the questioning process is huge.

Yeah. So I think, I mean, I think all of those determinants, right? It's like you, Way back, I don't know, before, some time ago, I wrote an article about the importance of those of us at colleges or schools of not trying to be MIT or Stanford. We learn the best from all these other places, but then you need to adapt it to your local environment and what makes sense for you. And I think this is the same, right? I should have known better to call something an ideal way. There was a mistake in this piece of research. It's really like recognizing who's in front of you, who are your students, and what are their goals. Are they just starting to learn about entrepreneurship, or do they know about it a bit and we're really trying to work with them? So in that case, we're going to do some simulations and help them feel what it's really about, but it's not real yet. We're not really starting stuff, um, you know, all of that. So it's a sense of who the students are, and I've found that at different colleges I've worked at— Babson's a unique place, right? Everybody there is ready to go for the most part, but at other schools I always felt that the undergrads, you know, at least at the beginning, they're not really going to start a business right away. And the fact of the matter is, I'll tell you, Laura, we're known as one of the best places in the world to learn entrepreneurship. What do you think— so here we go, I'm going to talk, this is going to be just like class.

So now we're throwing a curveball at me.

Yes, I am. What do you think the percentage of Babson students are upon graduation, what percentage start their own business?

I'm gonna say it's low. I'm gonna say 20%. Yeah, even though it's the School of Entrepreneurship, and I did not research that.

That's right. No, you're right, it's absolutely low, but it's half that. It's roughly about 10% every year. Now, okay, if people said, oh my God, you guys are failing, or you're like the top entrepreneurship school and 90% of your students aren't starting businesses. But, you know, look, and I know we're going to talk about this later, that's not the goal for Babson, right? I mean, it's one of the goals. It's a nice outcome, but We look at entrepreneurship education a little more broadly, um, a little more broadly than that, than just starting business.

Well, I think, you know, you and I were talking about parenting before we got on the show, and I think as a parent, you want to, you want to see your kid come home from Thanksgiving break and ask the questions. You want to see some maturity. And I think that's what you're talking about. You're leading your students toward their, their own discoveries, their own maturity. And I think that is as good a goal as any, whether or not they start their own business.

Yeah, absolutely. And so at Babson, again, like, I think about is we use the vehicle of starting a startup and starting a business as a way to teach them other things and broader things, right? So I believe that, you know, so we teach entrepreneurial leadership and we have a perspective called on ET&A, Entrepreneurial Thought and Action. But, you know, I've always thought that— I believe that entrepreneurship is the most powerful good in this, in this world, right? It's the most powerful force in this universe to do good. And so we teach our students that. The reason why I say that, just as an aside, is if you look across economies, anywhere that you look where people are not free, right? So this is some relatively serious stuff here. Any regions where people, where you see people who are not free, you introduce entrepreneurship and freedom follows. And any place where you introduce freedom, entrepreneurship follows. Now, I can't tell you the causality, which way that arrow goes. I actually think it goes both ways, as I just said, but that's really true. And I really believe that. It's a phenomenon to do good. And what we're teaching, and that's why you can do it not just in a startup, but corporations, government, you know, nonprofit organizations. I see it, and I had a former student who did this in, refugee camps where they taught entrepreneurship and do things. Because sadly, if I asked you— here's another one. All right, Laura, I got another question for you. What's the average time somebody spends in a refugee camp when they're displaced because of war or all the things, horrible things we see going on?

I'm going to say years. I'm going to say 3 to 5 years.

Yeah, it's like 17. People are born and grow up in there. And so this is a powerful force in that environment to help them. They build communities within there and be entrepreneurial, but hopefully to get out. And so I do see it as one of the powerful forces. But, you know, back to Babson on that, what I believe and what we teach and why it's broader is we teach entrepreneurial leadership in many ways. That's how we term it, right? It's being an entrepreneurial leader. So what we're really doing is taking the vehicle of entrepreneurship, having people simulate, but then also try to do startups and learn from that. And so that they can apply it anywhere in their life. We, we as a community of researchers are researching entrepreneurs and successful entrepreneurs, and we're not just taking what we learn from them to help people start businesses. We're taking their managerial, entrepreneurial, creative lessons and learn and translating them back to people of all types so that they can be better in whatever they do. Entrepreneurial leadership and all these skills of entrepreneurship are hugely useful to you in this world, no matter what you choose to do. It's a way to look at the world, and it's a way to solve problems. And it's a, it's a proactive way to look at the world and solve problems, not to sit back and go, oop, there's a problem here. No, you look at it and go, ooh, there's a problem there, let me figure out how to fix it. I don't see a problem there, as a matter of fact, it's an opportunity, not a problem, right? So that's where that mindset comes in, and that's how I see it a bit more broadly.

No, I love that because you're right. Not everybody wants to start their own business, but it's, um, it's given the student, the person, the individual again, to think as an individual, to ask the questions that anything can be improved by just looking at the issues, the opportunities, and, and they can be a catalyst for growing an organization, whether or not they started it or, um, you know, jump on board with others. You're right.

It's—

yeah. I want to— you know, you mentioned the global piece. And so I want to get back to— you are on the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor USA team. I want you to tell us a little bit about that and the study you guys have just released on COVID-19.

Yeah, a quick study— quick background on GEM, as we call it, the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor. And if any of the listeners are interested, you can go to gemconsortium.org. Or if you just— you know, if you just put Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, you know, Google that, you'll find it. And actually, for the teachers and educators out there, it's great because what you'll find is 20 years of all the reports each year from the US team, but also from teams across the globe. At its height, it varies from each year, but we have anywhere from 50 to 60, in some years 80. And what we do is all the researchers are asking the same questions in their economy, some little differences, right, but in their countries. And so it gets pulled together, you'll see a global report as well, and you can do comparisons and contrast what's going on in different regions of the world with respect to entrepreneurship. And what we do fundamentally is we do surveys and panels and gather data each year to see what the total entrepreneurial activity is that's going on in each country, right? All sorts of various other things of whether or not these people, these entrepreneurs are seeking out an opportunity, or in some cases they're forced into it, right? There are no other options. There are a lot of entrepreneurs across the globe and even in our own country that have no other options. They have no job prospects where they are, there's nothing going on. They just got fired, say it's in the US, they can't do it, so this is their option. In other parts of the world that might be even less developed, you can imagine that it's like, "Well, I'm growing this food and I take it to market and sell it, and that's how I'm making money," right? So there are differences across everything, but this is an annual study that was started by Babson a little over 20 years ago now. And it examines exactly that, the total entrepreneurial activity in a country. So for us in the US, I can tell you that it varies, but it's usually somewhere around 12% to 13%. And what that means is— it's broken down a little more, but what that means is at any one time in this country, roughly 12 to 13% of people are either in the process of trying to start a business or within the last 36 months they have started a business. So that's what goes on in GEM. So what did we— you want to talk a little bit about COVID in this, the other report there?

We might as well. It's pretty current today. We're learning about the president being, uh, positive. But yeah, I do think that that study is very important because it's obviously not going to go away. And I wasn't aware you could meet the author moments. I was not aware that Babson started that, um, but in, in the ongoing research, but I, I do think it's important for students and all of us to hear where we're going with this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I mean, I'll just say, I will say again for the educators on there, I think it's a great place for information that you can then share and create exercises around with your students. Simple things, say like go grab this country and that country and make a comparison about them because all that— so it's really fun stuff that's up there.

That's an awesome lesson idea.

All that, all So all of that's up there, all that data's up there. But, you know, with respect to COVID, so each year, like I said, all of the countries across the globe try to track this same information. But additionally, you know, we'll do some special topic questions each year, and each of the countries do that. So sometimes what we'll do is, in the US, is, you know, one year we did special extra questions on corporate entrepreneurship. One year we did special extra questions on gender and women's entrepreneurship, right? Minority entrepreneurship. And so this year, of course, with what's going on, the extra work we put in was around COVID and what's going on there. And to no one's surprise, you know, the results, you know, we see things that are distressing, right? I mean, you know, at one time there was about 43% of businesses had either temporarily closed or were going to close. You know, so we're seeing that a lot of industries were really hit harder, and some of these are becoming permanent in some industries because they're really at risk. So, you know, an important part of that is to also look at ecosystems and how that matters. So if you think about the entrepreneurial ecosystem, so just say, for instance, all the kids are at home now, and daycares are closed in a lot of states, or they were at a time. And that affects, you know, that individual entrepreneur who's going to work. So all of a sudden, you know, you're a guy or a woman who was running your own business, and you've got all these pressures, but then the ecosystem falls apart as well. Now, you know, you can't send your kids to school, or you can't send your kids to daycare. And that has, you know, another effect on your ability to do what you're doing. So, so that's difficult, you know, so I think we all know that There have been changes, and it's been tough, and our numbers show that. But what's also interesting is there's been a positive side to this too. There's always a silver lining, and some industries around the PPE stuff, of course, protective gear and that, things like that, some industries like that have— it's been there have been some positives for industries like that, and they've been able to do well. So it's not all doom and gloom, but for most entrepreneurs, it's not. And, you know, it's interesting, beyond what's happened with COVID and the report we did in GEM, I did write an article last week— last week— last month for Entrepreneur Magazine, and in there I talked about, you know, some of the positive things that happen and that we need entrepreneurs and we need entrepreneurial leadership. And sort of, I gave 5 steps about what successful entrepreneurs are doing and how they're pivoting at this time to be successful. So there are positives, and I think that savvy, smart entrepreneurs always trying to find a way for that new opportunity and to innovate and change what they're doing, right?

No, that's true. I mean, I live in a place with a lot of small businesses. I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, And some have really risen to the occasion. They took this opportunity to expand while they couldn't open up. They expanded restaurant space and outdoor space, and I've seen a lot more art pop up during this time. So there are— I always look for the silver lining, and there are— there is some hope to it. I hope you guys will do a follow-up study though on that particular issue in a year from now, and hopefully we have better news.

Oh yeah, no, I— we will, and I hope that we will. And a lot of us outside of even the in the GEM study are certainly going to be looking at that. I mean, for me, like you say, it was— what I think about is like, this is a test for so many people in our country and across the globe who are being tested during this horrific time. But when we look into this little narrow snippet of it with entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship, I believe the mindset that I just talked about, the entrepreneurial mindset, and being an entrepreneurial leader, and trying to recognize opportunities and do things are critical. I think that mindset is what we need at this time to lead us out of this, right? And I see that from small companies that I work with and how they've pivoted to large companies and what airlines and hotels are trying to do in this difficult time. And, you know, what I really come down to, one of the things I think about is that I think about entrepreneurial leadership and having that mindset. Entrepreneurial leadership was once a competitive advantage for people and companies, but now it's a necessary capability, right? Entrepreneurial leadership once was that competitive advantage, but now it's a necessary capability. If you don't have that in your toolkit, you're probably not going to survive very long anyway, because competition will come along. You might be riding high, competitor will come along,. And if you're not ready to move and react and be entrepreneurial, you're not gonna survive, you know, in the long term. So like I said, in that Entrepreneurship, uh, Entrepreneurship Magazine article or Entrepreneur Magazine article, I, I'll spell out those sort of, you know, what I see as like 5 steps to help people do that.

Let me go look that up. I, it sounds like a great article.

I can send it to you. You can post a link here.

I think we'd love to do that.

We'll post it with the podcast listeners as well. Sure.

Great, thank you. So we've talked a lot about Babson and the philosophy of Babson, and if you could, you know, because we're winding down toward our time, but I would love to hear your advice for educators and at any level, K through 12, what we focus on, and at the college level. What do you say to your peer educators?

Yeah, the first thing I would say is, is like I think the best teachers always do, experiment and practice, right? Do small little experiments. You know, we don't change our curriculum each year wholly and completely, but you change things on the margins. You know, I often think about it as like, you know, the produce section at the supermarket. If it's more than, you know, X amount old, you don't want to touch it. And so like, if I look at my, you know, syllabus, like if something's more than 3 years and I haven't done much with it, it's time to do something. So I think for all of us, it's experiment and practice, right? And don't be afraid to, right? If you're not going to throw out your entire curriculum, right? I encourage people to take pieces of it and find something wild, something new, something in, you know, informative and different. And try that. And if it doesn't work, that's fine. You know, you're a good teacher, just try it. If it doesn't work out one time, yeah, you just roll with it. And But it will, you know, it will. And I would say to that, there's a good resource. I put a plug in. I mentioned my colleague Heidi Neck, but she is coming out with— she edited a new volume with our other colleague Candy Brush and another one, Patty Green. The three of them have this book called Teaching Entrepreneurship, and the second edition is coming out in, um, in January, I believe. But it's, you know, it's It's geared towards college and university professors, but high school folks use it as well, and you could bring it down even lower than that. And in that book, what we take is, you know, there's some work up front explaining how you teach entrepreneurship, and so the ideas, um, the, the sort of how you practice it and how you be creative and how you, you know, play in the classroom, right? You do certain things, but then the real meat is the the last half of the book, where it's just short chapter after chapter, which is an in-class experience or exercise that you can do in entrepreneurship, taken from all the folks at Babson. So we take the best that we've done at Babson. You want to talk about opportunity recognition, you got a little finance thing, a little marketing thing, here's an in-class exercise you can do, here's all the materials you need, here's what you have to have, here's what you do, here's the lesson plan for 30 minutes or 60 minutes. Try this out, see if it works in your classroom. And there's, you know, the first edition had, I don't know, 40 of those things or something in it, and the second edition is going to do that as well. Um, so that's awesome.

When will it come out, Andrew?

I think in January, but in January, but the other one exists now, and, you know, it's probably a good time both. Again, it's called Teaching Entrepreneurship. The first author-editor on it is NEC, N-E-C-K, my friend Heidi, and I think that's a great resource for anybody who's teaching But my overall philosophy is that, is like, just try new stuff. And you know, you gotta try it. Get your students out of the typical environment so they're creative. Get them out of the classroom if you can, outside looking at different things. You know, that's, you know, change it up for them too. So it keeps their world fresh. And then you have to, I always say, I'm a professor of entrepreneurship, but it's more important for me to be an entrepreneurial professor. And there are two distinctly different things, right? I can profess all day about entrepreneurship, but what I really need to be doing is be entrepreneurial about how I teach. And so that's what I would tell everyone to do.

I love it. I love it. You know, I started the conversation by saying I think you've had a fun career, and I— your enthusiasm is just, um, beyond reproach. You know, I love you use the words wild and new and play and, and delight.

Yeah, well, delight, that's it. I think that's a good word for us educators, for all of us to remember at the end. It's not We're educating, to be sure, but you should be delighting your students every day when you go in there, right? To keep them engaged. Um, you know, but yeah, I, I really feel fortunate. I mean, I'm fortunate to just chat here for you with a half hour. I'd love to talk about this stuff, but I also feel fortunate when you asked me about my career at the start. I mean, if you asked me 25 years ago what I'd be doing, I don't think I could have told you this, but I couldn't be happier. I'm one of those people who's fortunate to have found what you know, he really wants to do. And I love my work and I love doing it. So it's, it's just so much fun. Um, I can't tell the people at Babson, I wouldn't say I'd do it for free.

They might lower your salary.

Yeah, right. Um, but I, I'm really fortunate to do what I do. Um, and not only do what I do, but to do it, um, at a great institution like Babson. I'm really thrilled and I'm really, I'm really happy with the opportunity to share with you and your listeners today.

Thank you. This has been so much fun. You've given us a lot of resources, Andrew, and I really appreciate it. I've got some of the things I've written down and will go research myself and share with others. What's the best way for folks to get in touch with you if they have questions about any things you mentioned or want to say hello?

Sure. Easiest thing, real simple, is just to email me at Babson, and my email address is acorbett@babson.edu. And that's simple, right? A for Andrew, A-C-O-R-B-E-T-T at Babson.edu. And you can certainly post that up with this as well.

Great, thank you. This has been just such a pleasure. I really do appreciate it, and hopefully we'll circle back around and talk to you again in the future.

Yeah, I'd love that. Super fun for me too. Thanks so much, Laura.

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