Heart Rate Variability: The Key to Stress Management - Episode 297

Welcome to the Gladden longevity podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, where our passion is helping you to become an AJ hacker. On this show, we want to help you optimize your life energy, longevity, health and human performance with impactful and actionable information by answering four questions. How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? And how do we live young for a lifetime? Now, here's today's episode of the Gladden Longevity Podcast.

Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, and as always, we're here answering the big questions. How good can you be? How do you make 100 to new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? How do we live young for a lifetime? And how do we develop a 300-year-old mind? And today, I'm being joined by a physician, an emergency room physician, Dr. Torkel Ferro. That's spelled T O R K I L. His last name is F A E R O. And he's going to be coming to us from Norway, actually, and he's very, very intrigued by heart rate varia stress. He's written a book on this that's become a bestseller and translated into a number of different languages. And this becomes a very interesting conversation where we. We talk about hrv, hrv, but we also branch out into lots of different permutations with regards to stress and health and ways to counteract it. And it's a really nice exchange of ideas. I think you're really going to enjoy this podcast. Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, and I'm here with Torque Lafero, who's Dr. Torque El Ferro, who's coming to us from the west coast of Northern Norway. Right? Is that.

That's right. That's right.

I once got up to Bergen, which I thought was a long ways up there. He said he's further north than that, so I don't know. He's somewhere up in the Arctic Circle. It almost sounds like. Or starting to bump into it. Anyway. Well, welcome to the show, doctor. Yeah.

Thank you, Dr. Jeffrey. Thank you, Jim. Nice to be here.

Yeah. Excellent. So tell us a little bit about your journey into being focused on heart rate variability and stress and things like that. You didn't start off that way, of course. You were probably trained like most of us in more traditional forms of medicine, if you will. But, but how did you. How did you navigate to that? How did you migrate to that?

It's a bit of a long story, but I'm trained as a normal physician and knowing about all the diseases, I still make my livelihood from treating patients the way that I'm expected to be as a normal doctor. But some 12 years ago, my father died at 73. And I took a look at myself in the mirror. I could see I started to look like my patients. And I started looking around to see how can I be more healthy so I can reach an age far beyond 73. And I understood that there was so much knowledge about this, and I understood I had to change my life totally around starting exercising, starting to focus on sleep, nutrition, you know, stress management, and all of these things that we never learned much about in medical school. So I kind of had to start my own private medical study 2.0 by myself in my free time. And somewhere along here, I understood that the autonomic nervous system is such a vital part of staying healthy.

Yeah.

And that we now have heart rate variability as a measure of the state of this autonomic nervous system. So I just got intrigued by that. For a couple of years I used an ECG based monitor strapped to my chest until I realized that we actually have this biometric in the watches that almost, at least in Norway, almost everybody already uses. And so I just dove into that and wrote the book called the Post Cure, which has been, you know, translated into nine languages, just been a continuing bestseller in Norway and has completely changed my life around from being a normal one to one doctor to becoming a public speaker and the bestselling author and everything that comes with that. So. And I'm still, I'm still absolutely using the numbers and results I get from my, from my Garmin watch, from my aura ring, from my whoop band and.

Okay.

To guide my. Under these stressful circumstances, you know, keep my head above water and, and still be, you know, productive and keeping my health.

Oh, that's. Yeah, that's great. So let me ask you this. When you were, when you were young, were you an athlete? I kind of have this image that everybody in Norway is either cross country skiing or doing something.

So yes, I was. So I actually was on the national team in kayaking, in canoeing, maybe it's called in the States, also doing, of course, cross country skiing and other sports as well. But for like five years, I was, you know, athlete, athlete, training every single day, being all the way focused on that. And that made it kind of strange that I just let myself, I don't Know, for like, many years, not doing any exercise or taking any care about my own health.

When did you step away from exercise, do you think?

I just. When I understood that I'm not going to be a world champion or, okay, come in the Olympics, I just quit. I just focused my attention anywhere else I was doing, because I've been. I've been traveling. So I've been mainly focused on traveling, doing adventures both alone and with my family, traveling around the world. We have been sailing halfway around the world for years. So my focus was on that I didn't really care about my own health through the medical study. I didn't have much. I think we thought that if I did everything right, I may live four or five years longer maybe. And of course, doing that would require sleeping more, exercising a lot, doing, you know, the cooking from, from, you know, a lot more cooking. And that would take, you know, four to five years during a lifetime to do that. So I thought that, you know, the, the gains are not much more than the effort. So. So why bother? You may not even get that reward at the end. So. So. But now, of course, studying these subjects understand that you can have a couple of decades more. And now that I've been a doctor for 26 years, I can also see that in the patients that if you do most of the things wrong, then you'd be lucky to get into your 70s. If you do everything right, you have a fair chance of reaching your 90s and still being vital and having a good life. So that's what I'm aiming for, and that's what I'm trying to help people understand themselves. And of course, now that we have these watches, we have heart rate variability to guide us. It's so much easier to manage, to be able to judge how the sleep quality is, the nutrition quality, if we are actually resting when we thought we were, and these kind of things. So I think that's part of the success in Norway that has been helping people, you know, towards taking control of their own health.

So tell me about your dad. Your father passed away at a fairly young age, at 73, I believe you said. What, what, what caught up to him was that lifestyle choice. Did he end up with a disease?

Yeah, so. So he got cancer, gallbladder cancer, you know, which is, you know, like most cancers that we now know, related to our lifestyles. In my medical school, we were taught that it was genetic or just pure accident. And now, of course, we know that the lifestyle has so much to say, and my father just had a normal lifestyle, didn't exercise too much. You know, the indoor life that most people have these days. I know Americans live Indoors, you know, 95% of the time he was probably sleeping and eating normally, but it's now normal to get these kind of diseases. So it wasn't, it wasn't un, directly unhealthy in any way, but it wasn't healthy either, you know, with, you know, you know, 30 pounds overweight or so, and I was 40 pounds overweight, so, so that was, so a normal standard European, western US way of life is not healthy. So you have, so you have to take more effort, put some more effort into it than that.

You know, one of the big, one of the big drivers of aging and also cancer risk is insulin resistance. And as you know, when people are carrying extra weight around, they have a much higher chance of being insulin resistant. In the clinic over here, we're basically doing two hour glucose tolerance tests with insulin curves on everybody that comes through. And the reason is because we've found that so many people that have a hemoglobin A1C in the US terms of, you know, 5.2 or 5.3 or something like that, and fasting blood sugar of, you know, 90 or 93 or whatever, when we, when we stress them with 75 grams of glucose, it's just remarkable what happens. Like their fasting insulin could even be five. Let's say we, ideally we'd like it at two, but let's say it's five. Their blood sugar might go up to 185 at one hour, their insulin might go up to 70, which it shouldn't go up more than say five times. So if it's five, maybe 25 would be considered normal. We'd like to keep that one hour number less than 130, 135. And so people who are not obese, maybe carry a little bit of abdominal fat and exercise on a regular basis, can still have significant insulin resistance when they're eating or exposed to sugar, so to speak. So it's really, it's fairly insidious is my point. There are the people that are obviously not the picture of health. And then even in people that are the picture of health, so to speak, or close to it, there's kind of hidden risk there as well. So it is interesting that I think we need to be a lot more vigilant in terms of how we care for the people. You know, like another thing we do is measure all the toxic burden in individuals. We just had a 38 year old woman Here who was diagnosed with breast cancer on an MRI scan that she got. She just kind of went out and got A full body MRI scan found stage one breast cancer. Three young children, 38 years old. Right. Why does she get that? No genetic predisposition, no family history. She's full of mold. Oh my gosh. Full of toxins, environmental toxins. And so it's really, if you're listening to this, the point is that even though you're exercising, eating well, things like that, there are other levels of this that need to be looked at, like what is your metabolic status, do you have insulin resistance, what is the toxic burden, what's the quality of the air and the water that you're breathing, things like that. Because that stuff can, can really sneak up on any of us, quite honestly. So, yeah, anyway, just to.

Yeah, absolutely. And of course my father was, yeah, my father was of course advised, you know, to eat fat free diet.

Right.

That was the, the advice from most doctors. And I took a test myself and I found that I was pre diabetic and used CGM then. And then continuously. Yeah. And managed to change what I was eating and how I was eating, the, the sequence of what I'm eating and so on. So, so now I have a good ACA 1C. Absolutely. And it's interesting also with the, the breast cancer that even if you have the BRC1 gene, then if you're sleeping enough, you know, you avoid getting the cancer. If you don't sleep enough, for example, the chances of contracting a breast cancer is larger with the same genetic background.

Yeah, I think that's really good insight. You know, the BRCA gene, really the problem with it is it's a diminished ability to repair your DNA is kind of what it boils down to. And so most of the repair processes in the body occur during slow wave sleep, deep sleep. And to your point, you can, even if you have genetic predispositions that you know of or family history, ensuring that you get good quality sleep, which is. Back to your comments about the wearables, can help give you some insight. So you know when you were talking about the whoop, the aura ring and the garment you're actually wearing, the. The audience can't see us, but he's wearing all, all three of these. Right. So he's, he's kind of a, a walking billboard for, for wearables, if you will. I'm just curious, what's the correlation that you find between wearing all three of them? Do you find that they contradict each other or correct Correlate quite well.

They correlate well. They may stress different kinds of metrics in their reports. So they would show a lit. They would show your health from a little different standpoint, so to speak. They would have some pros and cons. I would say Garmin is by far the best when it comes to micromanaging your stress levels, you know, hour by hour, minute by minute, if you want that. It's much more precise. It probably has kind of a bigger engine, so to speak. While the Oura ring would be smaller, easier for many people who would not like a screen, who may just need to, you know, change their lifestyle a bit. It would be better in regarding sleep, for example, while the blue pad would be better when it you're writing a morning report every morning or you don't write it, but you check some different things you have been doing the day before and you will get a weekly and monthly report. And I think that whoop is probably better when it comes to artificial intelligence and collecting data and conveying that data to the person. So they're all bit different. I've been using maybe 10 or 15 different variables and I keep sticking to these three. So nice Garmin being by far the best one. And also of course use them because. To show that I'm not, you know, affiliated with one of them and now that I'm, I'm, you know, not have my integrity, so to speak.

Sure. Right.

So.

You know, there are a number of things that we've noticed with the wearables. And one is that if you drink alcohol, it really has a big impact on sleep quality and slow wave sleep course. I think a lot of people feel like they will drink alcohol to relax and that they'll get sleepy and fall asleep. The interesting thing is that of course it. And you know this from, from wearing it and seeing patients, I'm sure that it really disrupts sleep in a big way. Which gets back to this idea of repair and recovery. Right. And one of the things I enjoyed about the whoop when I was wearing it was that the recovery score, it would give me an idea of not only the strain score when I was out mountain biking or something, but it would give me the recovery score, which I would then utilize to give myself an idea of what level of exercise I should engage in on this particular day. Is this a day to go all out or is it a day to kind of do a recovery kind of protocol? I think there's a lot of wisdom in that too, because I think people can get focused on I'm going to exercise every day. And they're trying to hit a personal record almost every day, and it's really counterproductive. I think it's really about trying to match your exercise intensity to the quality of your recovery. And if you kind of marry those two up, then that becomes a sustainable kind of way to exercise, so.

Absolutely. And when I was training, you know, for the national team, we were going all in every day, you know. Right, right to the maximum every day. And of course, now we know that it's when you recover that you build yourself stronger. So if you push yourself to the max every day, you're. You're just, you know, wearing yourself down. You're not allowing your body to build itself stronger. And this is why whoop and whoop as is, as you say, you can measure the strain and you'll see how recovered you are. And if these, you know, metrics are. Are matching. So. So I think particularly also for. For women with their menstrual cycle, when they see that the week before menstruation, they have so much less physiological power to do the exercise.

Yeah.

So I think particularly for those women, it's really, really important because it comes as a surprise, just as the surprise with alcohol that it really. Because I used to drink two glasses of wine every day, believing it. It used to be the doctor's advice. Right, sure. And I even felt calmer. So even after a busy shift at the er, before I went to bed, I would have two glasses of wine to wind down, thinking it was useful. Right, right. And according to whoop, you know, that. That collects the data from the users. I'll call this the worst stressor of all. And I don't think I've met anyone starting to use a wearable that has not cut down on their alcohol consumption. So we don't really. We're really poor at judging the consequences of the different things we do. We're not equipped to do that. But the heart rate will demonstrate, just like the needle on your speedometer, the intensity that is put upon you or you put upon yourself or from. From mold or alcohol or other. Other factors.

Yeah, I think. I think that's a really wise statement that you just made, which is that, you know, we can be well intended, but we don't really understand the consequences of what we're doing, even if we think we're doing something healthy, like exercise, like getting sunlight, like having a glass of wine, like, you know, whatever it might be. Even eating certain. Eating certain foods, you know, are not healthy for Every individual. Right. It's really, it's about getting the foods that are right for your system. Right. Right for your gut, your biome, your immune system, these kinds of things. Right. So if you're listening to this, it really does become a custom fit. And, and you want to have the ability to tease that out. You know what, what is it that you're doing to optimize your, your autonomic nervous system?

I'm making sure I sleep enough. That's number one. That I get those seven to eight hours of high quality sleep. That will often mean, by the way, that I stop eating maybe four hours before I go to bed.

Okay.

That is what also most people find. And then I'm having a restricted feeding window, maybe six to eight hours. And the rest of the time I don't eat. I've cut alcohol more or less totally. I think I drink maybe 10 drinks a year just to reconfirm that I shouldn't do it. I exercise. Been running today. Running maybe three times a week. Also doing some strength training. I ran the New York marathon last year and the only training with light training. I only trained for 30 minutes in the Zone 2 twice a week just to see if can I run a marathon with that background. And I hadn't run earlier, so I was training for a year for that. I'm making sure that I have a good stress balance, that I'm able to calm myself down with breath. Work mostly. Can also do with a cold shower, cold exposure. Also use a lot, of course, mostly during the winter. Yeah. And with nutrition, I stay away from food. With chili that I react very, very strongly to. I had no idea before I started with the wearables. I also tolerate. And that's food, milk and gluten poorly. What's that?

Did you say chili?

Chili. Chili, yeah. Like chili peppers.

Yeah.

Interesting that they put in everything. Yeah. Without noticing because there's. People are not allergic to it, so they don't have to put it on the allergy list. So. So you have to ask, you know, and as long as I eat it, if I eat it for lunch, it's okay. But if I eat it for dinner, it will ruin my night almost as bad as, as alcohol.

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, that's very. That's very interesting. The beauty of this is that if you're wearing these is you get lots of insight. And when you start to combine it with CGM and you can watch what your glucose is doing, that's a, that's a really powerful combination. I think so even if you're not diabetic. I would almost encourage everybody listening to get a CGM and wear it for six weeks or eight weeks. You'll learn so much about which foods and in which sequence you eat them, what the impact is on your, on your blood sugar. And unfortunately we don't have a, a CGM that can actually measure insulin. I wish we did because the insulin really goes unnoticed and we've seen people that control their blood sugars beautifully with a two hour glucose tolerance test. But oh my gosh, our insulin levels go super high. And so it's another form of milder insulin resistance, if you will. So there's just a ton of information there, if we can, if we can get that.

So then you, for example, you find that pizza is like the worst of all. When you get those curves after a late night pizza that will go for like seven hours, bouncing up and down. And then you can also see on your wearable monitor that your stress levels follow that sequence quite a lot.

That's right, yeah. One of the insights that I had a while ago was that, you know, we think of, well, there was some interesting data in the study that basically showed that people that eat one meal a day versus people that eat three meals a day or two meals a day, they had an 80% increase risk of cardiovascular events and death if they ate one meal a day. And the question was, why is that? If intermittent fasting is good, why wouldn't one meal a day be good? Because I've gone to meetings and people will sort of almost braggadociously say, you know, I only eat one meal a day. It's like, oh, really? Okay, so, but I think what you're highlighting and, and what we sort of figured out as well is that eating is actually stressful. It's metabolically stressful. We think it's a sort of, you know, regenerative or even rejuvenating restorative. But in many respects it's actually very stressful. And particularly if you get the wrong foods, the chili peppers, the gluten, the, you know, dairy, things like that. So if we're gonna, when we're counseling people to eat, if they're gonna eat in a six hour, eight hour window, whatever they wanna do, we have them eat four or five meals in that, in that space so that they're never getting that big metabolic load, allowing their body to adapt to it. And anyway, that's, that's one thing that we've kind of adopted over here, anyway. So.

Yeah, and so many people, they struggle with symptoms from their intestines, they have pain, bloating, and when they get that long time without the eat. That's right. A lot of them get better.

That's right. Yeah. We've become big fans of the five day fast mimicking diet and that in that regard to kind of reset.

Yeah, yeah, I've done that too. And then you can see on your wearable that it's actually relaxing for your system. Yeah, for many people at least. And we used to think that. And that was a surprise to me. The first time I skipped breakfast, I was feeling hungry, expecting to see stress on my monitor and saw just calm. So when you're fasting you get this both calm and adrenaline. So it's an interesting also to watch what happens to your body and to be able to monitor it.

Yeah, that is interesting. One of the things I've started doing recently is taking spermidine in the morning when I'm fasting. Because spermidine as you know. Well, actually, spermidine is a beautiful molecule in that it addresses almost every hallmark of aging on some level. But of course it really enhances autophagy. And so if you're going to be fasting and you're going to be standing on the ampk side of the mtor ampk teeter totter, which is, you know, the regenerative side, the restorative side, we're dropping in spermidine on that side of it to kind of enhance that as well.

So too bad it's so expensive.

What's that?

Too bad it's so expensive.

Yeah, well, that's a. It's getting sick is expensive. That's the fastest.

Yeah, I know, I know. And you can also, as you're fasting, when you exercise while fasting, you can increase your autophagy as well.

That's right.

Another way you can do it.

That's right. I take spermidine again, then go exercise.

So. Yeah. Yeah.

All good. Yeah. Very interesting. So it sounds like you've developed some breath work practices. Do you do any actual meditation per se? Have you. Have you tapped into that or is.

It predominantly breath work or how it's predominantly breath work. I think I'm kind of a meditative person. I don't have a stress problem. So I don't feel the need often to do so much meditation. For me it's often enough just to watch nature, to be outside walking, to go running.

Nice.

And I'm not. But for people who are stressed, you know, and many people are, you know, emotionally stressed, then I know it's a good way to calm down. And what's interesting also, when you have the wearable, particularly the garmin, then when you can see how your heart rate reacts. So for many people when they are meditating, they actually become more stressed, which does not mean that they shouldn't do it, but maybe they really need to do it, you know, when it's so stressful for them. But at least it's interesting to know that what you did that you thought you could check out as calming down was not calm. It actually stressed you in some way.

That's a good point. That's a good point. If you're. If you're trying to meditate and you're kind of caught in this space of, I don't think I'm doing it right, but I'm trying, you know, that can be stressful, of course. Right. Meditation is really more about simply being present and not being attached to anything, outcomes or whatever else. Right. So it's really. It's kind of almost like not only a sacred space in many respects, but it's also just a very cool, quiet, calm, sort of stepping out of the flow of life, going by kind of space, which is ultimately very calming if you can get there. But trying to get there, I suppose, can be stressful. We use a device here called Braintap. I'm not sure if you've heard of that, but it's maybe.

Is it a kind of muse? I use the muse too, which is kind of neurofeedback.

Yeah, muses, Neurofeedback. This is actually utilizing binaural beats with either music or just binaural beats in conjunction with photobiomodulation. So you have lights coming through your eyes and through the blood vessels in the ears, and you can actually pick which waveform you want to go into. So you can go to theta, which is a deep meditation. You can put yourself in alpha. You can go to gamma for flow. You can put yourself in delta to help you fall asleep. And we find that it's a very healthy tool for people. And here also, we measure vagal nerve power on everybody that comes into the clinic every time they come in. We can actually measure the power inside the autonomic nervous system in the higher. What's that?

How do you do that?

We do it with a. It's a. It's a computerized program that runs along with the brain tap. It's called NeuroCheck, and it's a few thousand dollars for the computer, but you just put clips on somebody's Wrist and they sit there for five minutes and you get a. You get a lot of things that are read out. But one of the things is you can look at the. Not only the balance inside the autonomic nervous system, but you can look at the power. And what we find is that the people that have more power in the autonomic nervous system are able to control their state much better. So we have people that come in. Normal power would be like, let's say 2500 to 4500 within the units that are being measured. And we have people come in at 400, 600, 800, and we know that they've got a lot of work to do. On the other hand, we have people that are at 6,000, 8,000, 10, 14,000. Right. Who usually do a lot of cardio and also meditative work. And by using the brain tap twice a day for just 11 minutes, we can build power in the autonomic nervous system, which is very cool. They come back, they've done it for two months, and oh, my gosh, they've, you know, they've gone from 800 to, you know, 3,000. And it's like, oh, this is good, we're making.

I need to. Need to check that out.

Yeah, yeah, you should check that out.

So that's so interesting. And I can find that when you have probably, like you say that they measure 400 on this particular scale, that I see that people with a very low heart rate variability, with a lot of stress, it can take a long time to get back into some normal situation. And it has taken a long time for them to get into that situation. And they are often the ones who are easily frustrated, who are often impatient and wants results right away.

That's right.

And they need to change that mindset almost in the first place, that this will take time and you have to take one step at a time and.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. One of the things we like about the brain tap is that even for people that would struggle to meditate, it can actually. It's like. It's like riding a bike with training wheels. It just, it helps you get there. Right. And once you get there, once you felt that, once you felt that meditative state, it's like riding a bike, you can get back to it, but if you've never felt it, it's hard to know where you're trying to get to. Right. So we use it that way and then it's just a good, good training tool, quite honestly. So, yeah.

Anyway, I will check it out. I've been using Muse too. There's just this kind of neurofeedback which, you know, you can listen to the sounds of the jungle and if you calm your mind, the sounds will be calmer and so on. Using eeg. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, that's. Yeah. The neurofeedback is interesting too. I've used those as well. I found that this one seems to work better for most people to just take them there. Like we have everybody try it that comes into the office after we test them and people just like, oh my gosh, I love this thing.

Right.

Because for the first time they were just able to go into a theta state, let's say, or that kind of thing. Right. So it's. It's very cool that way. Yeah. Well, cool. What's on the horizon for you? What that is? Sun.

Sun. Sunlight. So I'm. I'm currently writing a book on sun exposure. Been diving into it for sun exposure, sunlight, photo. Photo biomodulation, but. But mostly from the sunlight. So we have really been. And that is hard to understand how we could put people inside 95 of the time and not even be looking for what we lose. And of course, now we know that the, the sunlight will create so much healthy.

That's right.

You know, things in our bodies with melatonin, with of course vitamin D, but also, you know, with nitric oxide, with the hormones, testosterone, the other sex hormones as well. So there's so many benefits from sunlight that we have scared people away from for what it seems. No reason. It doesn't seem like the sun exposure is that connected to melanoma as we have been taught. So I'm still half a year away from publishing that book, but it's just enormously interesting subject. And what's also interesting is that you can see it in the heart rate variability. And it's almost funny because when Norwegians going from the north, people often go for one or two weeks sun vacation down to Spain or the Canary Islands or even the Caribbean and so on, and their heart rate variability doubles and suddenly their symptoms go away. So I think I was interested in that because I could see such a clear result on the variables, uh, and which probably has something to do with. With anitric oxide. With that, it goes into the cytochrome C oxidase in the electron transport chain, improving the ATP production. So there's so many things happening in the body. So that's.

It changes our mood also. Right. I mean, we just feel better, we feel happier, we feel more kind of alive than if we're kind of in the dark all the time, so to speak.

So, yeah, we feel more energy. And when you feel more energy, it's because you have more energy in my mind.

That's right. That's right.

So many of the diseases that we are treating is really mitochondrial dysfunction thing. The energy production is too low and there are so many things that can affect it.

That's right. Yeah. When we think about sunlight, we always think about. Really, if you had to pick one time a day to go out, it would be in the morning before, like 9:30 in the morning, at least in this latitude, or 10:00 clock in the morning when you're getting the early morning sun. Right. It's stimulated melatonin production through your eyes and it's actually calming to your nervous system, kind of activating, you know, all the good things that happen with hormone release. And. And you're not really exposing yourself to skin damage at that point in time because, I mean, skin damage from sunlight is real. I mean, you know, you've seen people that have been kind of torn up by it. But yeah. So anyway, we love sunlight. Well, that would be. Interesting book.

Yeah. Yeah, that is really interesting. And also when you see the morning light, because when I'm out running, I see all the runners, they have sunglasses, and then you lose a lot of that.

That's right.

That power from the sun, the. The regulation of the hormones, you know, in your. In your brain.

That's right. That's right. Well, very cool. Well, Torkill, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. It sounds like you're doing some good work over there. And yeah, check out the brain tap. And maybe next time I see you, you'll have another wearable around your. Around your head. I don't know. Who knows?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, thanks so much.

Thank you for having me.

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