Judy Gaman - Neurofeedback: A Game Changer for Cognitive Wellness | Ep.292

Welcome to the Gladden longevity podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, where our passion is helping you to become an AJ hacker. On this show, we want to help you optimize your life energy, longevity, health and human performance with impactful and actionable information by answering four questions. How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? And how do we live young for a lifetime? Now here's today's episode of the Gladden Longevity Podcast.

Welcome everybody to this edition of the Glad Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden. And as always, we're answering life's big questions here. How good can we be? Global question. How do we make 100 to new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? How do we live young for a lifetime? Youthful, vigorous, vivacious. At the same time, how do we develop a 303,000 year old mind? And today I'm going to be speaking with. She's the CEO of Executive Medical Texas. Her name is Judy Gammon. And we had a really lovely conversation about what's going on in her clinic. Some of the technical technologies that they're using to actually map brains, help people. Because of that, and combining it with neurofeedback, some of the impact that red light and air, infrared light are having not just on optimizing health, but on actually rescuing people from various disorders. I think you're going to find, even though this is a fairly short conversation, I think you're going to find it interesting and enlightening. Welcome everybody to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden. Today I'm joined by Judy Gammon, who's the CEO of Executive Health. And Judy is going to be discussing with us some interesting things that she's been working on with regards to executive health, if you will. But really having to do with brain optimization, which is a topic near and dear to us, we think that pretty much all of life comes down to optimizing the nervous system, if you will. So this is going to be kind of right up that alley. So, Judy, welcome to the. Welcome to the show.

Well, thank you so much. And Executive health is definitely something that we focus on at Executive Medicine of Texas. I'm excited to be on and to be talking about these topics. I mean, they're, they're great and they're timely. Who doesn't want to have their brain working better and 100%. Yeah, yeah.

So tell us a little bit about it. So I think you well, let me ask you, how did you come to be involved with this and how did you come to be the CEO of this company? Was this just give us a little bit of a running start on, on how you got here?

Yeah, I think it's interesting to even see how executive medicine even came to be. And that was two of our founders were literally just feeling like they were hand tied by what was going on in medicine.

Maybe you can walk us through a little bit about what it is you're talking about here with brain mapping.

Yeah. So for us, how we even started to get into to brain mapping is we started seeing a few things. You know, we do cognitive assessments on all of our patients as part of their executive physicals and we would listen to, you know, what are they complaining of, what's going on? A lot of times we're seeing athletes, you know, that have had traumatic brain injuries. We see people that have gone through grief processes. We've seen all of these things. But really how we got to the point that we said we want to map brains was a very interesting path because we're often approached by different companies and different people saying, hey, you should offer this or will you look into this equipment or this technology? And over time it's, you know, it's a lot of times we're like, it's not something that, that we want to do because there's nothing we're going to do with the results. So I actually went to a neurologist office because they wanted us to test this equipment and it was for brain mapping. I'm like, okay. I was a little skeptical, to be honest. And I was like, okay. Well, I went through the process and, and during that time there's like a cap that goes on your head and they connect the thing. So you were talking about an eeg. It's very much an eeg, but you're also doing things. So it's a functional EEG and it's tracking your responses during these comm.

And so like an evoked eeg.

So you're basically, it's different than in a vogue. It's a lot more in depth than an evoke. The system we use is called wabi. And for this particular test, when I got done with it, the neurologist said, you know, I want to show your results. Give me about an hour. And then we sat down at a table and I looked up at the screen and I said, what are all those red spots? And he said, well, green is good, red is dead. That's kind of the Theory. And, and he's. And then he, he asked me something very interesting. He said, judy, you know what I see on your brain right here tells me that, did you have like a traumatic event or something, like real recent? And I had not told him anything. And of course, I burst into tears and I said, yeah, two weeks ago, my sister died tragically. He said, yeah, and this is what's going on in your brain? He said, this is the grief center. And he explained to me. He's like, are you having trouble, like, remembering things? And he was asking me very pointed questions. And I'm like, yes, every yes to all the things you just said. He said, well, that's exactly the part of your brain that, that tries to compensate when you have grief. And he showed me what my brain was doing, which completely correlated with what I was feeling and the circumstances I was in. So in that moment, I was, I was like, oh, my gosh, we could have so many uses for this. This is something we need to bring into the practice. But then my very next question was, well, okay, great, but now what am I going to do about it? You know, it's good to know I have this, but what I'm going to do is we can go through some neurofeedback. And this was just fascinating to me. And so basically with neurofeedback, what we do is we put some clips on the ears, we put some things on the head, and we listen to music through the earbuds and the music will skip. And depending on where you at and you're at in the stage of, of what needs to be repaired in your brain, your, your brain will hear it, or maybe your brain doesn't hear it consciously, but maybe subconsciously. And what happens when you get in the car and, and the radio station doesn't come. Come on or statically, you're, you're automatically. You want to turn the radio off because nobody likes the sound of static.

Yeah.

So there's these little static blips. And when my brain hears that, it really tries to reconnect those synapses and, and then it just. You go through these processes. I, I went through. I think I went through six weeks and I think I did three times a week for six weeks. And it was a game changer for me. It was absolute game changer.

Nice. Yeah, that's great. So this is called the, the EEG you're doing is called a wabi.

A wabi.

Okay. W A B I. Yeah, I think, I think it's W A V I Avi Wabi. Okay, got it. Um, and, yeah, neurofeedback. I have some experience with neurofeedback as well. I've done a number of sessions and things like that. So. Yeah, very interesting. So you're doing this probably. Well, you're doing it based on somebody's symptoms or some of the other preliminary findings. But it's interesting. If you were to do this on everybody that walked through the door, you'd almost find something. Quite honestly, it seems like almost everybody's brain has something going on. So how is it that you're. That you're actually using this? Are you. Do you have particular criteria for the people that you test or.

You know, we've had. We have some people that. That actually request it. You know, we'll do. If they request it. But generally we're looking for things, you know, are they coming in complaining of ADHD type, you know, adult ADD or ADHD type things? Are they an athlete that has some concussions? Do we have somebody who's just having even some. Some mild mood changes? But we've already checked into their hormones or doing certain things? You know, there are reasons that. That we may do it, and it may be that somebody just says, I want to have it done. And we have. We have scanned brains on people that. That have said, I just want to have dash. Want to see what it looks like. You know, I. Brain map.

Sure.

They're good. You know, they're good. So we don't find something on. On everybody. Not everybody needs neurofeedback.

No, that's true. That's true.

But even if we find. Even if we say you're good, we say, this is great because now we have a baseline. So if you should develop something or you're in a car, God forbid, or anything happens to happen, we know what your brain is capable of. We know what's the normal point at this stage. So we know where to. Where to look from here.

Nice. Okay. And so you do the neurofeedback and that becomes your primary intervention. It sounds like. Just explain neurofeedback to people in terms of the number of sessions it might take or the frequency or things like that.

Yeah, it really matters on what the goal is. You know, we do this a lot for, like, insomnia, and that might be a shorter session. It might be that we're going to do it twice a week or. Or maybe three times a week, and we're going to do it for three weeks. We get something like grief. We might go to six Weeks, we get something that is like a traumatic brain injury. Maybe they were a football player and, or a professional athlete or even, gosh, even high school these days. And they've got some issues. And we're kind of working through that. It may be that we do a round of six weeks and then we say, okay, we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back and repeat this. In a month, we do another roundup. But it's really provider specific. There's so many things that go into that because that's not all that we do. It may be that we're looking at micronutrients and other things. There's a slew of things that we do. So we want to get the big picture. What's going on? Are the hormones balanced? Are your micronutrients getting into the cells? Where are we at on the bigger picture? And then how does this fit into the treatment plan?

Yeah, I think that's really important in brain health. We find that thyroid is really critical. And so one of the things that we do is we look at resting metabolic rates on everybody because we found that testing blood thyroid hormone levels is not really adequate to understand what's happening. The other thing we do is we look at genetics to see if somebody can convert T4 to T3 in the brain with a DIO2 gene. And so if we know they're challenged there and with the resting metabolic rate, if we see they're on the low end of what would be considered normal. Yeah, then we, then we tend to optimize that people are hovering around the. The, you know, let's call it 100 with 85 to 115 on a resting metabolic rate would be in the first standard deviation or would be considered normal. You know, if they're at 86%, we're gonna work on that. We're going to look at iodine levels. We're going to maybe even prescribe thyroid. At that point in time, we don't really. At that point, we don't care what the thyroid numbers show because we know the gold standard is really the resting metabolic rate. But that's interesting. If you're listening to this, you should know that the resting metabolic rate is only looking at general global systemic respiration, not the brain specifically. And that's where that DIO2 gene becomes important because the brain's separate from the rest of the body. And when you can't convert inactive T4 to active T3 in the brain, then it's. You're guaranteed to actually need T3 in combination with T4, even T3 alone. We had a woman come in as very high functioning, in her 50s, with a concussion that she suffered on a bike accident. Worked in medical device sales and was at a major medical center here in Dallas that everybody knows, and was in their concussion clinic for I think two and a half months. Not making any progress, you know, like worried that she might lose her job. Right. And, and so we tested her resting metabolic rate and it was normal. All her thyroid numbers looked normal. We tested her DIO2 gene and she was homozygous for inability to make T3 from T4 in the brain. The only thing we did was give her a small dose of T3 Cytomel because she wasn't hypothyroid and she graduated from the concussion clinic in a week.

Wow.

Right.

So you changed your life, Dr. Lynn. I mean that's, yeah, that's. It's all about the pieces of the puzzle.

That's right. It's all about the deconstruction, I think deconstructing it thoroughly enough to actually understand where are the entry points, what's actually going to help this person.

Yeah, you know, I, I love to hear you really looking at the science and looking at the brain and finding ways to, to really get to the root of the problem. I do think in the medical industry and specifically in this, this space of, of, you know, private pay medical, you see a lot of these like weight loss clinics and different places that are just prescribing blindly. Thyroid.

That's right.

And it's, it's so dangerous and it's, it's so worrisome. So when I, I hear you and I, I just applaud you for, for really going that extra mile. And how many people would have looked at that woman and, and I, I feel like this is so unfortunate this happens. But looked at her and said, oh, you need antidepressants, you know, or maybe there's something going on psychologically. Rarely do people need antidepressants. They're just so over prescribed.

Yeah, they are. And I think what we find is that a lot of people are quick to jump to a therapy, not knowing really if the therapy is indicated or not, or whether it's the only therapy that's indicated. Right. So to your point, I like the fact that you're checking micronutrients and doing other things because there are many things that contribute to brain health. Certainly hormone optimization is massive. Right. Particularly if you've got ApoE4 genes. I mean, you have to have estrogen in the brain, or male or female, it doesn't matter. Or your brain is really not going to do well over time. So we're testing many, many, many things here. Plasmalogen levels, EEGs, you know, all kinds of things. Right. Because it's really like, how do you actually find the entry point to optimize the brain? It's so critical for everyone.

Yeah, it's so critical. And you know, one of the things that we've seen, I don't know if you're seeing this on your side. Especially post vaccine and post Covid, we're seeing a lot of adult Epstein Barr infections and they're, they're really unleashing, unfortunately, things like Ms. If they've had Lyme disease before.

Yep.

We just, we just recently had a case of, of an Epstein Barr reinfection. And the crazy thing is this particular patient had the, the herpes zoster, the shingles reactivated in their body and they got shingles on their cornea. So no rash to the face, no rash to the eye, to the head. But the visual changes. And then of course, going through, the ophthalmologist realized that there were shingles on the cornea. So it's really getting to the bottom of that. You know, what is the real cause? What's really going on here? That's right, the patient.

Yeah. And then having therapies where you can actually decrease the viral load. You know, you can use things like eboo, plasmapheresis, you can do things that will actually improve mitochondrial function for people with all the long haul symptoms. Many things that we were able to take care of once you actually deconstruct it and actually understand what's happening. So, yeah, I think this is the path forward. I think this is really, medicine's path forward is deeper understanding before prescribing and realizing that a medical test is really. The way I describe it to clients is that medical testing is kind of like a particular lens. Right. So humans have one lens in each eye. Right. So we have stereoscopic vision. But a fly, a fly has many lenses in their eyes, Right. So they have a compound eye. And medical testing is kind of like looking at things through a compound eye. One test will give you one perspective, but you've got to combine it with another test to give you. So here you got anatomy, here you got physiology, here you got function in another way. And it's piecing those together so you get a clear picture of actually what's happening. So it's impossible to say, well, I had a CT scan done and it looked okay. Well, okay, that's one lens. But we need more lenses to actually see this thing clearly. Right. And I think that's what, that's what you're, what you're in the middle of doing as well. So. Really important. Yeah.

Well, I, I, I love hearing you talk about that, that we're going to use that, I hope you don't mind. And we're going to adopt that fly lens. That's a great analogy. I think a lot of people can, can understand. But, you know, it's not something that, that the usual I call the HMO treadmill. You know that the HMO treadmill allows for, it doesn't allow the doctor enough time or enough tools in the, in the insurance type practice to really get to the root of these problems. And I feel like there's too many band aids.

That's right.

A lot of times the band aids are the wrong band aid, so.

Well, yeah, when you're on a treadmill and you only have 10 minutes to talk to somebody or whatever, I mean, it's very difficult to actually deconstruct a problem effectively. So you're basically. A lot of times, unfortunately, people are shooting from the hip, God bless them. They're trying to do the best they can, but they just don't have the tools because they're handcuffed to the payers. And the payers aren't going to pay for this test. And then they're handcuffed to the therapies because only this therapy is approved. And you know, the next thing, you know, it's like you're, you're, I don't know, you're a captive. Right. Even if you want to do the right thing, you can't do the right thing. So that's difficult. Yeah, very difficult. Yeah. Very cool. So tell us a little bit more about some of the red light stuff that you're doing. You're doing some things with red light. We know that actually laser and red light can also be very therapeutic for the brain.

Yeah. So absolutely. You know, there's, there's a few things that, that we do. We have a, a platform where, where it's a vibration plate, but it, it's a rocking vibration plate. And that, that tends to, if we use that and then we put the patient after that into, to red light therapy and we have these big panels and I know red light's a little bit different in different places, but the way we've set ours up is we have two, like full Body panels. And they're, they're fairly close together so that when you're in the center of them, you're about 12 inches away from either side. And then we have them on a grounding mat. And then we also use a little bit of therapeutic music in there. We call this. Yeah, we call this bio waves. So we know. And you know, you probably talked about this on your podcast before that the, the red light near infrared light works really well in the mitochondria. So, you know, some of our patients are like, oh, I love it. I look so young, my hair is growing and all of that. But the, for us, it's, it's about, let's get your immune system back in check. Let's heal some of these things from, from the inside. And you know, now we don't use it for this, but there's been some recent studies that this high dose red light near infrared light on the, even on the scalp and even the front of the head has worked really well for some of these degenerative diseases like Parkinson's and such. So, yeah, we're seeing a lot of great things happening with red light, near infrared light. It works a lot for athletes. You know, there's a great performance, people that have, you know, their muscles hurt and all of that, but there's, there's just so many uses for it and there's, you know, the side effects just aren't there, you know, so that's.

Right.

One of those things that you can step in and you're gonna feel better. We, I don't know if you've seen this with red light with your patients, but we see people say they've never slept so good. They, they sleep really well after.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah, we use red light here to some extent. We use laser as well. So we have different modalities of light, but light is really critical and the brain really loves light, quite honestly. So even shining, if you had a laser and you shined it, shown it basically just on your head for five minutes, the brain reacts well to that. Right. And then there we have a red light cap where you can wear it in. Yeah, right.

So these, like a Capulous. Capulous or something similar.

Similar to that. Yeah. And so. And then we're doing transcranial magnetic stimulation here also for rebuilding grades. Right. Things like that. And then peptides and stem cells and other stuff. But, but yeah, all of it, all of it can fit together, particularly if you've done a deconstruction properly to actually know what, what is the issue here. Right. So, yeah, very, very.

And that. And that's the thing. And not pigeonholing the patients. Every patient's got to be different. And every. And if you take the pieces of the puzzle and you put them together and everyone's like a mosaic. Right?

That's right.

If you can kind of look at what does their picture look like? And it's. They're all different. And then what's the best path forward? And then what are their goals? Because some people have, you know, different goals. We may look at a patient say, okay, if we didn't ask them, we might think their goal is they want to lose weight or they wanted this, or, you know, whatever they are. But the more they talk to you about their goals, the more you really can understand what they're not able to achieve. Because this is interesting when you have somebody that says, I just want to go up a flight of stairs and not get short of breath, and you're like, how long you been short of breath when you go up a flight of stairs? You know, because then you start thinking, this could be a cardiac issue. You know, let's get to the bottom of what's really going on and why is this your goal? And why was there a sudden change?

No, that's right. The other interesting thing about that is, you know, as people get better, their goals change. Right. So if you get them to the point where they can walk up the stairs, it's like, well, you know, now I'd like to be able to play with my grandkids, or now I want to, you know, be able to walk the golf course or whatever it is. Right. So I think as a, as a practitioner, it's always important to kind of look at that bigger picture. We always try to take people's aspirations completely into account because we want them to attain those. But in our minds, sometimes we're looking beyond those aspirations into, okay, well, if we hit that, then what's next for them kind of thing. Right?

So, yeah, yeah, it's so true. Do you do telomere testing where you are? Yeah, we do too. I think sometimes that's a good wake up call for, for the patient. We're like, okay, let's see, let's see what's going on with your, your telomeres. And let's get a little bit of a biological age on you. And. And then it, yeah, it's a wake up call.

Yeah, lots of really, really interesting things. The other thing for the audience to understand is that a lot of these therapies alone will have an impact. But when you kind of lace them together or sequence them together in particular ways, you can have a compounded effect that can be really quite dramatic. You know, like, you fix the thyroid, you fix the hormones. You're, you know, you're doing the neurofeedback now you're doing the red light. You know, you, you get the sequence and you get the, the integration of these technologies together, and all of a sudden you make progress that much faster or that much further than you might have. You know, if you just fix this or that. Right. Or just use this.

So true. And like you mentioned earlier, you add peptides, and, you know, there, there are a lot of peptides we'd like to use. Some of those have been pulled back. And we all know big pharma usually is behind when peptides come back because they're so effective. And we've just seen so many great things happen with patients and peptides.

I agree, agree.

But, you know, even with the ones that we can use right now, I mean, we use them in conjunction, like you mentioned, with other things, and it is about like a multifaceted prescription, if you will.

Yeah.

That doesn't come in a bottle, like a little tiny pill bottle, so.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Very, very cool. So what's on the, what's on the horizon for you? What are you most excited about at this point in time?

Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of things, but I would, I would say from a, from an overall standpoint, not just a scientific standpoint, but if we just look at the shift that's going on in America, people are waking up and they, they want to take ownership of their health. And I think when that happens and, and now we have a lot of people talking about this and we're past the whole odd thing that was going on with. I don't know if you caught wind of this, but there was, I don't know, like, two years ago, I was like, patients don't want to be weighed anymore because it's oppressive. If you weigh them and tell them their way, we're like, what. What is happening? You know, but, but I think, you know, just as an overall, I'm really excited about the shift in, in people realizing that if they're going to get better and they're going to get healthy, they got to have a dog in the hunt and they've got to kind of understand what's going on from a, you know, scientific standpoint. We just got this new technology, so I Probably don't want to get too deep into because I don't understand it quite as well. It hasn't been shipped to us, but we just sent some dogs for some training on something called, called stem wave. And I love about. I don't know if you're familiar with stem wave, but the one thing I love about it is we can treat some of these things like plantar fasciitis and Achilles tendonitis and, you know, even hip issues and such without having to use steroids. And we really want to not use steroids if we can do it this way. And, you know, these radio waves and being able to break up that scar tissue and get the blood flow going back and.

Right.

It just makes such a big difference. Carpal tunnel. There's. There's so many uses for it that'll keep patients out of the operating room and then keep them off of, you know, things that are going to do more damage than good.

Yeah, no, that's, that's wonderful. Yeah, that's great stuff. Yeah. Very, very cool. Well, it's, it's fun chatting with you. I think you're right. I think what's interesting to me is to see how the conversation, like the term longevity or health optimization or things like that has really kind of made it into the vernacular. Whereas when I started doing this in 2012, it was, you know, it was a little bit like, what are you even talking about? Right. So. But it's interesting to see that there's so much swell of enthusiasm for this. And I think, I believe. And then I'm going to give a lecture here. I mentioned to you shortly this afternoon, and I'm telling people that I really think aging is going to be cracked in the next three to five years. And the reason for that is because, number one, we're doing so many things already, they're having a dramatic impact. And number two, when you start to layer in the effects of quantum AI.

Absolutely.

And its ability to optimize systems and, and, and biology itself. I mean, the power of these chips are just phenomenal. Like, if you, I don't know if you've been tracking, like, the Maharana chip or the Willow chip out of Google, and what they're figuring out, you know, when they combine it with, you know, Voyager 1 or the JWST telescope or some of the, you know, the data, what they're basically finding is that these quantum chips can find signal inside the noise that was completely missed by supercomputers. Right. So all of a sudden you're learning things about the cosmos, about what's out there that you, I mean, everything you thought you knew about physics. Think again. It's really, it's completely, really being completely rewritten. And what's exciting is I think we've had such a Newtonian concept of biology and medicine. You know, we think it's like a receptor and a molecule, and this is how it works. But there's so much going on really in the quantum, quantum level inside cells and being able to talk about, really deconstruct and reconstruct things. I think there's going to be a lot more leverage on the system to actually be able to turn back the clock for people. So I, I'm super excited about that.

Yeah, I completely agree. I completely agree. And the, the use of AI within the systems that we'll use in the, in the office, you know, in, within the technology that we bring in, being able to assess things. You know, there was some, something we looked into about three, four years ago, and the technology wasn't quite there, but I think it'll be there this year. And it literally was a posture analysis that it, it basically scans, you know, does a video of you while you do these particular movements. And in that, it can tell you the exact areas which muscles are weak, which whatever. And it really goes into the neuro. Like we have a neuromuscular therapist here. It really would make that job so much easier because we. Okay, here's, here's the prescription, you know, because you can find it that easily because it's been fed all this information. You know, people with rotator cuff tears or things, not necessarily a full tear, but partial tears and different things are fed into it. So when they can't do particular exercises or they lean a certain way or they move a certain way, or they don't have balance a certain way, it's just immediately spitting out what the best, you know, the best modalities are going forward.

Yeah, no, it's fantastic. Really, it's fantastic. You know, I just saw something on Pompeii yesterday where they had used the Maharana chip, right. Microsoft's quantum chip. And they were actually able to reconstruct, using the chip, the eruption of Mount Vesuvius.

Wow.

And they were able to rebuild the city and they were able to track how people were moving in response to the volcano and the pyroclastic flows. And they discovered that the Stoics and the people that were kind of in the religious centers were actually staying behind to help people and that other people were fleeing and family systems broke down. It was kind of like every man, about 60% was every man for themselves. Other people were trying to help other people. And then you had sort of the spiritual leaders that were kind of staying behind, so to speak. And of course, they were killed, of course. But. But it was really interesting to actually be able to reconstruct even the frescoes, even from fragments of things. The AI could rebuild the city. And. And when you think about the. The power of that and you think about applying that sort of technology to biology. Right. I mean, oh, my gosh, I think maybe three years is too long before we actually get some.

It's going to happen super fast, right? Fast.

Yeah.

I don't know. Did you. Did you see this? I thought this is fascinating because you mentioned that we've kind of had these beliefs about the human body for so long, and, and we've told ourselves these things for so long, and now we're finding new things out. And I don't know if you saw this in the news, but I found this fascinating that forever, like when an egg was fertilized, they've always said, you know, it was the same sperm that, that swam the fastest that did this. You saw it. What they've. They've decided or what they figured out. And I don't know exactly how they did it, but they, they released a study and now know from microscopic level and from a biological level that what happens is the female egg chooses which one.

Okay.

Opens long enough for that one. It shuts down and shuts the others down.

That's fascinating.

It's so fascinating.

Yeah, it's actually. And then signaling going on, right? I mean, obviously there's signaling going on. That's saying, this is the right one. She's saying this is the right one. Right. And amazing, right?

It's fascinating to me.

Yeah, There you go. And that's why we're all here. So.

That's right.

One egg and one serve said hello, and there we are.

So all the mothers can tell their children, I did choose you.

There you go. Well, we do have Father's Day coming up, so there's something to be said, but. Well, great. Judy, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks so much. Thank you. Great stuff. Okay.

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