The Art of Setting Healthy Boundaries - Episode 300

Welcome to the Gladden longevity podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, where our passion is helping you to become an AJ hacker. On this show, we want to help you optimize your life energy, longevity, health, and human performance with impactful and actionable information by answering four questions. How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? And how do we live young for a lifetime? Now here's today's episode of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. Welcome to the Gladden longevity podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, where our passion is helping you become an age hacker. On this show, we want to help you optimize your life energy, longevity, health, and human performance with impactful and actionable information by answering now five questions. How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? How do we live young for a lifetime? And Dr. Gladden, the fifth question.

Yeah. How do we develop a 300-year-old mind? Right.

A 300 year old mind. I need to actually add that to the.

And you know what? That concept of a 300 year old mind originated in the mind of our guest today.

Really well. Joining us is Mukti Devi, your partner and somebody who I absolutely adore. I think she's your better half, Dr. Gladden. I met her when you guys were here in town two years ago. And I think the absolute. You two are an absolutely adorable couple.

So thank you. Yeah, yeah, she's amazing, for sure. There's no doubt about it.

So, Steve, it's so great to see you again.

Always good to see you, my friend. It was two years ago you guys happened to be in town. I just saw the Facebook memory earlier this week. We went out for a hike, did Mount Cutler, then went out to dinner and played cards and just laughed and had a blast. And so, yeah, you guys got to get your ass back down here to Colorado Springs or I need to go up there to Boulder, Denver.

The next time you guys are here, come to California. That'd be good. I was out there, you know, reading the book for the audio portion of the 100 is a new 30. That's why we were in town at that point.

Yeah, it was great. I love Colorado Springs. It's so beautiful.

Yeah, we had a great time in your lives. The last handful of weeks and months. A topic has come up that our producer had reached out and said, Steve, you got to come on, because we want to talk about boundaries, boundaries in the professional and personal space. And so, yeah, let's talk about this because it's really important for our health.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting topic. Right. We talk a lot about our aspirations, we talk a lot about our activities, we talk about manifesting certain situations, we talk about manifesting relationships, we talk about developing great relationships and all these things. And yet one of the pieces that we never really focus on, we talk about the attributes of those relationships. One of the things that seems to not be brought up are what are the boundaries here? Right. Either professionally or personally or whatever. So we thought Mukti, with her now master's in psychology and doing her training now in ethogens, would be a good person to bring on to kind of chat with us about boundaries, maybe from her perspective as well. Do you mind sort of setting the stage a little bit on boundaries? Not to put you on the spot.

Or anything, but hi. Yes, happy to be here. Setting the stage. Well, I think boundaries. I think setting the stage. I want to go back to childhood, and I don't know that I was raised in a cult, a family culture that had a lot of emotional intelligence around boundaries. And it's. And I'm. I'm actually excited to see in the world of psychology and psychotherapy, at least, the things that cross my social media streams are more focused on establishing boundaries for children. And one of the ways this can show up, like a precise example, is how as a child, perhaps sometimes I was reluctant to hug strange Uncle Bob, who I would see once a year, who had a funny accent and, you know, wore a silly suit. And my, my instinct was to. Not to hug Uncle Bob. And the exact example of how our boundaries are overridden as children are when we're forced to hug relatives that we don't want to hug. That's a very more common example that I'm seeing in literature and anecdotally, just in memes and stuff. And how important it is to always have a sense of boundaries, to protect our sense of well being, to foster self respect, to be able to have agency and sovereignty over our unique bodies. And so that would be setting the stage, raising children who have a clear sense of naming and defending, so to speak, their boundaries, their personal boundaries. And then we talk about having boundaries in adulthood which show up in the interpersonal relationships, work relationships, family relationships, community relationships. Every relationship that we are engaged in, no matter the proximity, has some expression or lack of expression of boundaries.

Let me interrupt you for a second because it's a really interesting thing about childhood. I hadn't really thought about childhood Boundaries. And to your point, it's actually kind of a violation of a person's autonomy and self identity. Right. It kind of blurs the lines for them, like do I have. Do I have agency over myself or I don't. Right. Am I? And so it kind of undermines a sense of self at a fundamental level. And now we're. We're basically going beyond our instinctual boundary to please somebody else. And I think that can kind of become sort of a lifelong pattern. Right. Where we will sacrifice our boundary to please somebody else. And there can be a lot of negative repercussions from that, I think. For sure.

Absolutely. And well said. And that's a really classic example and not really meaning or trying to cast judgment on it because I think it's more common than uncommon and I understand the intention behind it, but it sends a different message to the nervous system of the child and to the psyche of the child.

Yeah. And it's well intended. Right. I mean, when Uncle Bob shows up, it's like, of course Uncle Bob wants us, you know, it'd be wonderful for him to experience a hug from his niece. Right. And so, yeah, so it's all well intended. I get that. Yeah. So that's interesting. So when we, when we're growing up, our boundaries have already been compromised to some extent in our family. Right. And then they can certainly be compromised by friends or at school or whatever else. So we're already kind of have shaky boundaries going into adolescence where they can get even shakier, essentially. Right. I guess. Or. Or firmer. I don't know. Tell us a little bit about the development of people's boundaries and their own identities and things like that. What's your, what's your take on that?

Yeah, I think it would be important to first clarify the different types of boundaries. The different types of boundaries. Let me ask you, what do you think of when you think of boundaries? What are you. What are you boundarying?

Yeah, well, for me, I would assume would be like the first one.

Physical boundaries. Yep, that's one.

That's one Time.

Time boundaries. Yep. That's another type. Emotional boundaries.

Emotional boundaries was came to mind for me in terms of, you know, whether or not I'm going to put myself in proximity to an energy that I don't resonate with. Right, sure. Probably in the. That's probably one of the biggest things. Am I really. Am I going to tolerate or am I being forced to tolerate. Energetic that I with. Or that even beyond that could represent harm to me or malicious intent or Something like that.

Right, absolutely. So yes, yes, absolutely. Protecting those emotional boundaries. Additional boundaries would include financial boundaries, especially as we raise young adults, all three of us raising young adults. So financial boundaries, sexual boundaries. This is a boundary, a type of boundary, and maybe a new type of boundary in the age that we're living now would be digital boundaries around needing, you know, boundaries around expectations to respond to an email to a text, to be online at certain hours at night. What, you know, clarifying and naming. What are your boundaries there?

Yeah.

So you can see there's a lot of ways that boundaries show up in our lives. Kind of like a typical wellness wheel. You could imagine all of these boundaries as domains on the wheel and start to ask for yourself which of these areas fell out of balance. For me, time is a really common boundary that gets blurred and mixed with feelings around duty and obligation. Right versus versus taking time for perhaps self care.

That's also true. I think there's also kind of a personal property boundary. Right. Where somebody comes over and borrows a lawnmower and, you know, you wonder if you're ever going to get it back kind of thing. You know, that. That sort of scenario too.

Yeah.

Or somebody borrows something and it comes back and it's broken, but they didn't take responsibility for, you know, bringing it back better than they.

Absolutely.

Right. So.

Absolutely.

So, you know, I think we kind of go through life in many respects a little bit on autopilot when it comes to boundaries. I don't know that we really. Sit down, Steve. Maybe you do, I don't know, but I don't, I don't. I haven't really sat down previously, quite honestly, and actually thought, what are my boundaries? They kind of, kind of show up ad hoc, I suppose. But is that something you've ever done?

Usually, like when I'm starting a relationship or over the course of my marriage, even those boundaries just kind of pop up and then you establish them. Okay, this is something like I remember specifically at work, my last job, that I had one of the producers there wanted me to be ready and checking my email every second of the day. So that way she'd get a response right away. And I'm like, no, I'm busy doing X, Y and Z. I'll check it a couple times during the day. But I'm not going to stop everything to try and answer your email. If you have something really important, come into my office and talk to me. And she had a really hard time with that. And it ended up being kind of one of those Catalysts for me ended up one of the many things that stacked up over me leaving. And so I found that in my life, when somebody does something, especially in a relationship, early on you can. Okay, hold on, Timeout. When you did this, I interpreted it this way. This is what happened. This is what. This is where it triggered me. And I'm not like, in the current relationship that I'm in. We're really great about that, about establishing, you know, hey, when you did this, this is what happened. Please don't ever do that again. Like, there was one time where she was out loading stuff in her car and I went up behind her and I scared her, and she was like, hold on. Please don't do that. Okay, no problem.

All right.

I won't ever do that again.

Yeah, no, it's just a good example.

It makes. It makes sense that if you don't set boundaries for yourself, they will be set for you by the people that you engage with, and they're set by default. And you just enable. Not just. We enable those default behaviors when we don't ever correct them or change them. And so there's an. There's a great lesson there, a great opportunity around doing it on purpose, Setting boundaries, asking yourself the questions like, what? Where is my relationship to time and commitments and scheduling? You know, asking yourself, what is my relationship to material things and my personal set of values around lending things to friends and then how I receive them back? But taking the time to do that inventory, that questioning for yourself is so important because the return on what that 10 to 20 to 30 minute meditative contemplative process might look like is that you're able to, in a moment, define to anyone else. That's not a yes for me. And to be able to say it with kindness, clarity, and confidence.

Yeah, you know, you've heard me say this many times before, but I think ambiguity is the thing that's always most difficult to deal with. Right. And so what you're talking about, Steve, is either in the moment or even a priori talking about situations to remove the ambiguity of what's, you know, where is the boundary? Right. What time do you go to bed would be one. Right. Or what time do you want to wake up? Or do you set an alarm or, you know, all those things are boundaries. Right. So because it feels like when. When the boundaries are just kind of being overrun that we're losing. There's a sense of kind of los. Integrity of our own border, so to speak. Right. We're no longer kind of our own person. We're being kind of run over by other people, and that's not a good feeling.

Well, Dr. Glad, a number of times you, on the podcast have talked about your relationship with Mukti, and one of the things that you've said is that you guys have had courageous conversations when, when you guys have hit. Hit a certain point, you guys would talk and you'd be open and be real. And early on, is this really going to be something. Is this something that we're going to be able to get through, or is this something we can compromise? Or. I would assume that compromise is also part of those boundaries where, yeah, I'm willing to go here to meet you if you're willing to come here to meet me. Right, Mukti?

I think, yes, compromise is part of it. And the model of nonviolent communication developed by Marshall Rosenberg, he doesn't play believe in compromise just to offer another perspective. He believes there is a way for everyone to get what they want, and he believes in the win, win. And, and I, and I. And when I first encountered that, I thought, well, that's intriguing. I mean, if nobody has to compromise, that sounds. That sounds fun and nice. I'm curious. And that actually brings me to. So just something else to consider. That's one way. What brings me. What I was going to add to that is, yes, compromising curiosity. Tell me more about your stance. Tell me more about what's happening in your inner world so I can appreciate what it is you're asking for and from what place you're asking. And ultimately, it's about uncovering the unmet need in the person standing across from me and listening for that need. And then, yeah, maybe compromise is called for. And maybe a curious conversation is called for.

Yeah, Muki and I got into this not too long ago where we were. We kind of ended up at odds with each other, not by intent, but just by some pre, preconceived notions, let's call it right. About what would happen or wouldn't happen. There was nothing wrong with the notions. It's just that when you tried to put them together, there was a. They weren't going together. It was oil and water. Right. So it led to some disharmony for us, which we, neither one of us were enjoying, basically. But we sat back and tried to deconstruct it. Like, you know, what just happened. Right. And so that was the courageous conversation which at the end of it led to us kind of talking. You know, there are courageous conversations where you're willing to bring something forward that you know, may risk the relationship, but you need to bring it forward. That's one thing. And that's actually honoring your own boundary, right. To have those courageous conversations. But then there's also curious conversations where it's like. And it's curious on both ends. Like, what was it about that that actually was triggering to me? Why did I get triggered by that? Or why did you get triggered by that? And digging into that, you know, the curiosity. And so I find that when you actually use that approach of curiosity along with loving care, right, like, you really want to know. It's not. It's not. You're. You're not searching for something so you can judge somebody by it and bash them over the head with it. It's like truly, you know, being curious to figure out, how can I understand the situation better? So we can either repair it or figure out how we're going to go forward. You get to a point of understanding where you don't have to compromise because now you feel understood and the other person understands and you understand them now. And now it's like, oh, okay, well, these are the boundaries now. And I see that. And if we start to bump into it, it's curiosity. So I don't know if that helps, but that's kind of was the experience.

So maybe we should talk about how to set a boundary.

Yeah, good idea.

Would that be helpful? Like the mechanics of setting a boundary?

I've got red cones in the garage.

Okay, so the first step is to identify a need. You know, you could Google a list of needs, needs, and feelings. There are worksheets on the Internet that are easily available, I know, specifically through nvc, Nonviolent communication facilitators have made these available. There are a lot of free psychology worksheets, probably where you could resource a list of needs and feelings. And so first, identify what your need is around a particular topic with a particular person. You know, this could be a boss at work, a supervisor. This could be someone you know below you at work that who you supervise. It could be an intimate relationship, a neighbor. It could really be anyone. But you identify a need that you have, and then you communicate it clearly. So a friend of mine uses the acronym kfc. It's kind, firm, and clear in our communication, but clear. And also you want to be consistent when you're setting your boundary. So if the boundary is for you, remember the boundary is for you. It's not for someone else. So you want to be consistent. And you also want to adjust your boundaries as needed so you're flexible to the moment and don't become overly rigid. Right. Because there's. There's a value in being able to adjust your boundaries as you evolve and you change.

That's an interesting point. I think people could, you know, go through the process, set a boundary, and then so somehow identify with that boundary to where they feel if they change the boundary or flex the boundary now, they're somehow compromising themselves. Right. Which is interesting. As opposed to a boundary being more like a softer cushion that has some give, depending on the circumstances. Well, I will still stay up later because the grandkids are in town or, you know, whatever it is. Right. So, yeah, so I think. I think adaptability and flexibility, quite honestly, I was just listening to a podcast on AI, and they were talking about two things to survive the future of AI, and one was learning how to prompt in a very intelligent way so that you're actually not asking questions which are actually teamed AI up to give you intelligent information. Right. So learning to prompt. The other was being incredibly adaptable because the future is changing so fast that you may have a boundary about something, and then the next thing you know, that's got to be, you know, rethought or reinvented or redone. Right. So I think there always has to be this element of flexibility. And. And it's interesting you brought that up.

Yeah. And that's a great. It's a great example. I mean, using the time of night that you go to bed, for example, just globe. You know, hypothetically, I was thinking of a. A similar example. Say, for example, I have a need. This is how it would play out in real life. So I named the steps, but these are actually. Here's. Here's like a play out of that is I have a need for personal space when I get home from work, about 15 minutes. I have a need to decompress in silence. So I'm. First, I'm in touch with the need of, like, oh, I have a need to not be overstimulated when I get home. I've been talking, engaging with people all day long, and I have a need for silence. Okay. And then I ask myself, well, how long? How long is that? All right? Because let's face it, we're coming home in the evening, and then there's the whole evening of activities that we do with our families, whatever those rituals are. So I identify. I need, one, I need some personal space and silence. Two, I need 10 to 15 minutes by myself when I get home, and then I'm going to communicate that clearly to my partner, we're going to sit down at a time when it's spacious for both of us, not when he's running out the door or I'm, you know, rushing off to a class or something like that. But when there's time, I'm going to ask for full attention and name what my need is. It's not a you. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone else. I have a need for some time to decompress and silence when I get home from work, before I'm ready to transition into the next part of my evening. So here's the communication. Clearly I'm requesting that for the first 15 minutes I'll come out, I'll go into my Zen den and decompress. And when I'm, when I'm feeling complete there, I'll join you in the kitchen in the common area. And then the consistency of coming in and doing that, the coming in every evening and going to do what I said my boundary was, and then adjusting it as necessary. So maybe I come in one evening and there's, yeah, the family's in town visiting and we're going right into dinner. I have the ability, the mental flexibility to say, I can pause that tonight and return to it tomorrow without it being completely destabilizing and, and not to diminish that for some people, certain boundaries and rituals are destabilizing to, to mitigate on even a daily basis. So many things are true at once. But I think you got the general gist of the example. Is that right? Does it feel like there's any questions?

No, I think you described it quite well. I'm thinking about certain people also that create boundaries that seem to be somewhat unreasonable to most of the people around them. Like the, the reaction is kind of over exaggerated or something. Right. And I think when that happens, my reflex now is not to judge that, but to actually get curious about it. Geez, I wonder where that's coming from. Right. I wonder what's underneath that. Right. And that's typically. It's this idea that for some reason this person is not feeling safe and so they're actually, you know, putting up a more forceful boundary or whatever that can be even repelling to the people around them. But it's typically because there's unresolved trauma there and they don't feel safe is kind of how I would come to understand it. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Yeah, it's a really great point that some people are not very skillful at Boundaries yet. They're just learning, perhaps, and they get overzealous and shoot a little high or something, so to speak. It's a great point about what are unhealthy boundaries? What do unhealthy boundaries look like? And some people have no boundaries. We all know those people. They will just walk in your front door without knocking and walking right into your kitchen and take your sugar cup out and fill it with sugar and walk back over to their house and call you two days later. And so that's. And I'm laughing because we love them. We love them, right? There's some people that just don't have boundaries. They've never been taught how. And there's some people who are learning about boundaries and they're, they're not getting it right quite yet. So just other ways to identify unhealthy boundaries as a piece of education public service announcement is those people who overshare with other people who they don't fully trust. Oversharing with people that you don't fully know or trust is an unhealthy boundary. It's not respecting someone else's boundaries. So when I see this happening, it's like, oh, that's interesting. My curiosity flag goes up there. Using guilt or pressure to get needs met, that's an unhealthy boundary. So if you've ever known anybody that uses guilt or pressure in order to get some of their personal needs met, they're manipulating boundaries. And yeah, I see Steve nodding his head. This is unfortunately so common. Here's one. Ignoring your own limits to avoid disappointing other people. And I certainly can relate to that boundary being crossed in myself where I was at the bottom of my cup and I just kept scraping it and scraping and scraping to like meet the approval of someone else and show them how good I was. And maybe it's just me, I'm an alien or something.

But no, we've all been there. I mean, certainly training, I scraped the bottle and when there was nothing there, I kept scraping, you know, until you literally burn out. I've gone through burnout before. So yeah, I do know this.

Being unable to say no or for fear of conflict or abandonment. So those of us who are really conflict avoidant or don't want to feel rejected will blur our own boundaries and give more of ourselves both time wise and resource wise than we have. And so you can see how unhealthy boundaries are. Unmet needs trying to be expressed different ways. And back to the point that you, you kind of led with, with curiosity is Instead of judging it, making it wrong, becoming curious about what's the need that this person is trying to get met and perhaps offering a constructive, positive way to have it met instead of making the, the not positive way wrong. If that. Does that make sense?

Yeah, makes perfect sense. I'm also thinking that if anybody's listening to this and they feel like their boundaries are being blurred, you know, curiously asking, you know, why am I allowing this to happen, right? What, what is it about the situation that makes me feel like I need to step over my boundary or actually move it to the side or ignore it or sacrifice it? What about the situation? Is it because if I don't do it, I'm going to be financially harmed or I'm not going to be lovable, or I'm not going to be safe in some way or. Because there are many things that go on here? And yet it's really interesting, I think, because when you kind of deconstruct it like that and you actually get your arms around yourself, it's like, if that boundary is actually really important to me, then I need to actually have the courage to bring it forward in a loving way, not in an attacking way. So let other people know that this for me is sacred ground. I actually need this. I need my 15 minutes when I come home from work, or I need, you know, whatever I need to do, right. I need to go play with my kids or whatever it is, right? So there's also, I think, a lot of boundary blurring by us not having the inner strength to actually claim what the boundary is and the courage to actually defend it, if you will. So I think that's interesting too. And then asking, well, why am I not defending it?

Yeah, I think, I think parts work is really helpful here. I really love ifs internal family systems and the approach of parts work and asking what part of me is resisting this or what part of me is needing this? Because we are truly a multiplicity of selves and. And there are protected parts, there are exiled parts of us that are. Can hardly make contact with. And ironically, I think one of this conversation came up in part, in part, pardon the pun, as a. As a result of a client and person that we know from another circle talking about, talking about this very thing, representing parts of themselves that were. Had been unattended to, almost simply unattended to. And so asking, like, what aspect of myself, right, is needing to have more defined, defined boundaries and protected boundaries and ultimately safety boundaries are not for other people. It's worth repeating again. And so as you mentioned, with people who take really hard stances on boundaries where they may be over overshooting it. Quite honestly, the beautiful thing is we live in a self correcting system because of equilibrium. Right. Nature is always seeking homeostasis or seeking balance. And so when people. The way that I like to view this at least is that when people overstep and get it wrong, it's going to correct itself in time. Part of the correction may be that it pushes friends away. And you may be one of those friends who say, you know what, that boundary is just way too much for me. It may push you away. And that's how the system corrects itself over time, just naturally. And then people learn like, oh, suddenly they wake up 18 months later and like, oh, my boundary is intact but I'm all alone. Maybe I need to refine that a little bit. Right. And so the system's always course correct.

Yeah, that's a good point. It is a good point. I think for me, this bound, you can, you can kind of combat this boundary conversation from almost a 360 degree sphere of perspectives. Right. We talk about a buckyball, which is a 60 sided sphere essentially. And you can be asking the questions and be curious about the boundary from every perspective. Where did it come from? Why am I attached to it? What makes it a boundary for me? What would happen if it, if you know, something were different? What is it actually doing for me? What is the consequence of me holding it, having on the people around me, you know, all these different, all these different elements that enable us to kind of go in and more fully understand not only what we need, but why we need it. And in some cases resolving what that need is to the point where we don't need that anymore. Right. I am safe. I'm safe in this situation. I don't need that particular boundary anymore.

So yeah, there's a really important point to mention here. Yeah, and I like that you, you said that about inquiring about the safety. There's an important point to be mentioned that, that shouldn't be lost here, which is around the disservice we do to other people when we don't hold boundaries for ourself appropriately.

There you go.

And I'll, and I'll say it another way, when I'm not holding my boundaries well for myself, it could ultimately harm you because it leads to that ambiguity and the uncertainty of not knowing where you stand with me and, and vice versa, if I'm continually holding boundaries as a way to keep you in the right Behavior that I like and approve of. I'm doing you a disservice by enabling that behavior. There is something to be said for. A lot to be said for trusting the wisdom of the other person that when you hold your boundary for yourself, they will figure out how to restructure and reconstitute around that. Trusting the wisdom of the other person to know what to do in response to your boundary. The lack of confidence in that inner wisdom is why a lot of us get boundaries wrong, I believe, because we're trying to caretake the other person at the expense of ourself.

There you go. And if somebody has a boundary and I find it difficult to understand why that boundary would exist, then, you know, there are. There's a whole host of reactions I could have. But the reaction that I. That I have actually is curiosity and, and I want to go into that boundary and understand how it came up. What was, you know, what was the background, what happened when you were three years old that, you know, you know, things on a birthday are a particular way and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, where you actually uncover the story of whatever is back there. And I'm just fabricating that. But whatever the story is, right, to actually get a hold of, and then you can sit with the person together now you can actually help the other person hold the boundary because you see the importance of that boundary. You understand why the boundary is there. It's like, oh, yeah, I want to. I want to be your not only advocate, but your ally in holding that boundary for you. I not only want to respect it, but I want to help you hold it right, because now I understand why it's there and how important it is.

So, yeah, yeah, I think that's a good distinction. You're making a really great distinction around how to explore boundaries and relationship. It sounds like specifically to me those are conversations with a relational partner, an intimate partner. I want to also, in addition to that, I want to share a message for those who are single in the audience, who don't have the process of unpacking boundaries that way, to know that you don't necessarily need to explain your boundaries to other people in order for them to be true and accurate for yourself. If you have a partner who's got a deep interest in knowing you and really knowing you and how you got to be you and all the juiciness that comes with that, that's a really rich conversation, right? How did this get to be a boundary for you? Tell me more. I'm so interested. Right? And then for those of us who are, who are solo right now and those who are not, those of us who are in relationships and of all different formats, you don't have to have necessarily partners who are wanting to know you at the deepest level in order to have a healthy boundary and to walk it well, just to give permission for it to be messy and out of the lines a little bit.

Yeah.

When is the best time to set a boundary? I would assume, Mukti, that is not in the middle with a partner, specifically in the middle of a heated argument, and tensions are high. You probably want to cool things down.

Yeah, that's a great question, Steve. You know, in therapy, in psychotherapy, we practice, for example, in somatic regulation, teaching people how to regulate their nervous system with the breath and various modalities. We teach people when they're calm, when they're in parasympathetic nervous system, when they're in that rest and digest state, because the memory has a better chance of locking it in, of wiring it in, so that in times of stress, you're able to recall it faster. So the same thing applies with hygiene practices, relational hygiene practices. We want to practice them when we're calm, cool, and collected. We're engaging a different part of our brain then, so that when we need to resource the strategy or the tool in the heat of the moment, it's much easier to resource. It's right there in our belt. And so Jeff and I, for example, have a hygiene practice. Like we have a weekly conversation called a review preview, where we review our past week, even if it's things that we've lived through together. We'll rename it Highlights, Low lights, and then we'll do a preview of what's to come. And within that, there are other points of hygiene, so to speak. But the overall point, the meta point, being that you're doing something to cultivate that with regularity, with consistency, with clarity. And you're building a tool belt of strategies so that, like, when it's hard, you can say, like, you get to. That's when you get to use the stretch, the strategies. Right. So have you ever tried to cram for a test and you're super panicked and stressed out? Like, how much information really sticks?

Yeah, like 2%. So you know what's interesting? As I'm, as I'm listening to this is what I really like. And I think this could transcend an intimate relationship also, I think it can actually go into a business workspace with, with working colleagues or even in client relationships when you, when you get to understand the other person and why they have a boundary that they do. You can actually, as I said earlier, you can actually help them uphold that boundary. But when you're, when you do that, the rapport that you build with that person to know that they've got somebody on their side who actually really understands why this is important and is there with them, standing with them, oh my gosh, that's like we're not alone anymore at that point. Right. And it's, it's so having a boundary that somebody else can participate in with you, it's really a wonderful thing. Right. So this curiosity can lead to a real breakthrough in intimacy and connection that I don't think most people think about when they think about boundaries. So that's kind of interesting.

Absolutely. At the highest octave of that expression. I love this example. It's that, I mean, in the highest octave of the expression that your beloved partner helps you hold the boundary in service of your need and, you know, your greatest well being. And that's such a beautiful scenario to imagine.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah. So when you, when you have that, the other thing about it is there may be a time when you're physically incapable of holding the boundary. Maybe you're sick, maybe you're this, maybe you're that, you know, and to know that somebody else kind of has your back, they understand you, they understand the boundary and they can be there representing you, taking, having your best interest at heart. If you're not willing to go through the work of, of deconstructing these boundaries and why. Why do I have the boundaries? I do. And so, and asking myself why? And then allowing somebody else to know that and maybe resolving some of those boundaries go away. Quite honestly, maybe I don't need that boundary anymore. But the ones that remain, having a partner that can stand with me on those boundaries and also reinforce them, if you will. Oh my gosh. I mean, that's, you know, I try that jacket on, it fits perfectly. That's pretty nice. Yeah.

That'S right. Yeah. There is a deep way to honor someone else having and helping them hold their boundaries when you understand what it means to them.

That's right.

For that particular, that particular topic, whatever that is. So being clear, being consistent, being compassionate, calm and confident. Those are the five Cs of healthy boundaries. And you know, just invoking my friend Colleen again, kfc, kind, firm and clear. If that's how we, if we can represent ourselves using I statements, I value some time to decompress when in silence, when I get home, I need. Right, you're speaking from the I. There's actually no. This is the beauty of nonviolent communication is that when we learn to speak from the I, we're not ever making anyone else wrong. There's nothing that they need to defend. There's nothing they can defend, even if they try to make it about themselves. You have used an I statement. So it's really over unovercomeable and it's, it's a finite position, and I love that. And so just being able to name what we need is the very beginning of naming a boundary and doing it with kindness for yourself. Kindness and firmness and clearness for yourself, which is a way to love the other person.

That's right. You know, when I look at the container of a relationship, and again, it could be professional, it could be friendship, it could be client, it could be colleague, it could be an intimate relationship. I think this idea of going into it realizing that you're not going to be the same person coming out of it that you were going into it because you're going to end up understanding things about yourself you didn't understand previously. You're going to understand things about someone else that they didn't understand previously, and you're going to change and adapt. And the boundaries that you thought were, you know, flags on top of Iwo Jima or something are no longer really necessary at certain points. Right. So going into this with the mental flexibility to say, you know what, we're actually here for growth. These are the current boundaries and there's the reason why. Well, let's, let's go into that. Right. And let's see where we go with that. Right. So I think if you, if you do it from the construct of this is a growth pattern, not a static, you know, walls around a city kind of conversation, then that's also kind of makes it interesting to me and sort of fun, if you will. So.

Absolutely. I think it's a great point. The, that's the. There's. There again is the flexibility, having flexibility with your boundaries, with yourself. Like, come on, we're, we're dynamic systems or not static systems. We're in flux, we're in flow. We have to be nimble to the environment or we will meet our demise. I mean, the nature of life is in flow and flux. And so as soon as we become rigid in our, our behaviors and our relational patterns, we're really setting ourselves up for failure.

That's right.

Because I'm not the same person I was this Morning.

No.

Or last week or a month ago. And so. And I certainly hope you're not either.

No, I'm not.

And we have to be willing to adapt and change. And some boundaries will get firmer over time, and some will become minimal unto none over time as. As we more. As we morph and change. And that's kind of the beauty. Thank God. Like nothing has to stay like it was a week ago or 10 years ago.

Yeah, exactly Right, Steve, how does that, how does all this strike you?

It's been a process for me over, I want to say, geez, the last 15 years, probably where I've started to kind of realize that, okay, I do need to start setting boundaries in certain areas and really been focusing on it as well. Mukti, I've got a question. What do you do when someone could be a work colleague, could be a boss, could be a friend, partner, a parent, sibling, whoever? What do you do when they don't want to honor that boundary?

Yeah, that's a hard one. It's challenging. I mean, it can bring us to the point of having to make really challenging decisions for ourselves, choosing ourselves, getting really clear on what we're saying yes to and what we're saying no to. And it, I mean, depending on the boundary and the impact of changing that boundary or altering it could definitely require the need to resource additional people who you trust, counselors, therapists, friends, pastors, depending on the size of the boundary and the issue. I've certainly, I personally have had the experience of having had to walk away from deep relationship over boundary boundaries that wouldn't be mutually regarded for both of our best interests. And at the end of the day, that's a defining feature for me of any relationship that I'm going to be engaged in willfully. And so it could be as somber as that, I suppose. And ultimately it begs a conversation around values. And that's like preliminary work in psychotherapy is getting clear on what are your values. And you can Google values worksheet and Brene Brown has a free one out there. And Russell Harris, of course, the creator of act, but getting really clear with yourself, what are your highest values? What are you in service of? And you know, for me, my highest value is truth. Well, love would be the guiding value of all. And beneath that is truthfulness. And from the spiritual path, I've been mostly informed by coming from India, it's. It's called Satya or truthfulness. And for me, all of the other values that I hold valuable, the litmus test is, am I being truthful enough to acknowledge that these other qualities. And so when we have a boundary that we're trying to enforce and, and the people especially closest to us, whether it's at work or familial or relationally, are not willing to acknowledge it. It's, it's a, it's a moment to take pause and do an inventory of your values and ask what are you, what are you in service of at the highest level? At the end of the day, it can bring forward some really ever deepening questions. But those are the right questions to be asking.

Yeah, I agree. I think one of the things if I bump into something like that is kind of default to curiosity again, like what is it, what is it about this boundary for that person that's causing such an issue? I'm curious to know why that's such an issue for you that I want to go to bed at 8 o' clock or 9 o' clock or whatever, if that were the thing. It's not a thing. But if I just pull something out of the air, why would that be such an issue? Right. I really feel like it's in the curiosity that resolution can come. And if I get to a point where it's like I see that there's no way to bring harmony into these vibrations around this topic, then that's a reason to leave the relationship. Yeah. But many times it can be resolved by just deeper understanding, is my sense. And that's been my experience. It's been certainly our experience.

So, yeah, both people are committed to that. And that's, that's a fundamental piece, Steve, that I think is worth naming is what are you committed to at the highest level? Are you committed to being right? Are you committed to being in love? And that's, that's my teacher, Ram Dass. Let's give Baba Ram Dass some credit for that message. But what are you? What's your highest devotion? Is it to being right or is it to being free of those constructs and in love in the service of love? And I ask myself that. I used to for years. It's kind of more default programming for me now I don't need to make you wrong in order for me to feel right I would rather be in the space of love with you here's the, here's the hitch Even if I know I'm right Even when sometimes I'm accurately correct I don't need to push that agenda Because I'd rather be in the space of love with you and so really what Jeff's naming Is that that eternal curiosity of like, let me see where your heart is. Let's see if I can meet you there.

That's it.

Saying a saying that I've told my boys over and over since they were young. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it right.

That's right.

Yeah.

No, that's right. It's a good point. Yeah, for sure. Well, it's a fascinating conversation. You know, when we started this podcast, I wasn't exactly sure where we were going to go with it, but I think. I think it really kind of expanded out into really A nice, almost 360 degree look at the topic. I learned a few things actually, you know, in the context of thinking some things through here. So that, that's always fun. So I really appreciate you being on the podcast. Mukti and Steve, always great to see you again. So like old times.

So thank you so much. Great to see you, Steve. Great to see you, Jeff.

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