The Nature of Burnout: Definitions and Misconceptions - Episode 291

Welcome to the Gladden longevity podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, where our passion is helping you to become an AJ hacker. On this show, we want to help you optimize your life energy, longevity, health and human performance with impactful and actionable information by answering four questions. How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? How do we live well beyond 120? And how do we live young for a lifetime? Now, here's today's episode of the Gliden Longevity Podcast.

Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the Glide and Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, and we're here answering the big questions in life. How good can we be? How do we make a hundred to new thirty? How do we live well beyond 120? How do we live young for a lifetime? And how do we develop a 300-year-old mind? And today we're talking with Charlene Giselle. She's an attorney by trade who has become a burnout specialist based on her own experience with burnout. And I don't know about you, but I've flirted with several times, and I've actually experienced burnout, pretty severe burnout at one point in my career. And this is a really interesting conversation because you're going to hear us kind of dissect what burnout is, how it happens, what's required, how to take care of people in that state. It's. It's really quite interesting. And I think if you're a professional and you love what you do, you know, given external circumstances or whatever, you could feel there are times when. Where you just have to put the pedal to the metal, and the next thing you know, you're flirting with burnout. So you're going to find this conversation really interesting. Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, and today I'm sitting across from the lovely Charlene Boileau. I hope I didn't butcher your name too badly. She's calling in from Bordeaux in France. She's not drinking a glass of wine, though, that I can see anyway, so. But, yeah, welcome to the show, Charlene.

Not on camera, but off camera for sure.

Okay, there you go.

So, Charlene, let's talk a little bit about burnout. This is something I personally have experience with. I've gone through burnout probably a couple times in my career. I remember one time it became really incapacitating. I had to take three weeks off, actually. It happened close to a meeting I was going to in December. I Couldn't even attend the meeting because I was just so burnt out, quite honestly. And I realized that, you know, we all push so hard or we think we need to push so hard and we sort of compound the problem by doing that. Of course, I've, I've, you know, this happened maybe, I don't know, 10 years ago now, but I learned a lot from that experience. And it actually took me about three weeks to recover before I could even think about going back to work, which is really, really interesting. So I have some personal experience with this and I don't know if you do as well, but I know you've become a burnout sort of prevention coach and maybe a recovery coach. I don't know. You. You'll explain it to us so.

Well, the first thing I want to say is actually you did quite well because three weeks recovery for burnout, I would say is a, is a pretty tight timeline. My folks taking anywhere between three months to, you know, nine months to recover. So it really depends. So I would say first of all, like, I really, you know, applaud your candor for sharing that with us because I think a lot of, you know, high flying professional and type A still perceive burnout as a sign of weakness. And we know from a psychological standpoint that it couldn't be further away from the truth. If anything, burnout is the proof that you are so dedicated that you've done too much of that thing you love for too long with too little rest. So that's it. Like burnout is a nutshell. You've done too much of the thing you love for too, too many hours with too little rest.

That's right.

You can think of many fancy definitions, but that's really my definition of. And. And the truth is we mask it, right? I was a master masker. In other words, I would show up at work, be the one that would be billing the most amount of hours, asking for more client work. So can you blame the organization, the company, the firm? I don't think you can. Because the truth is, when I think back about my years when I burnt out, I was asking for more work hours, volunteering for more hours. I wanted to be put up in front of the client. I wanted to work weekend and, and I know this is going to sound strange, but I remember even liking the things you're not supposed to. Like, you know, the, the all nighters, the late night deadline. I liked it. I got a kick out of it. It's like adrenaline. You feel that you're of service, you feel that you can do it all. And there is something extremely rewarding. So my.

It's a. Let me just interrupt you for a second. It's really interesting to hear you say that, because this idea of doing too much of something that you love doing and not taking a break from it, and then, you know, there's. There's underlying reasons why we do that which are intriguing to me, you know, in the sense of, yes, we do love what we do. But in my case, I think there was also a level of fear, I would say, of I need to be working this hard to actually bring this company to life kind of thing. In my case, it was starting a company. Right. So a little different than being part of a firm, but. But a similar kind of thing. You're building a practice inside a firm, whatever you're doing. Right. So. But I think for. For me, there's a sense of loving what I did, but also having an underlying sort of feeling of fear or not being safe to where it felt safe to actually take time off. And I think. I don't know if you experienced that or not. I'm just sharing that with. With the audience. It may be that, you know, there's two sides to that coin, that there's also this sense of not feeling safe, taking time off. So I don't know, what do you think about that?

I love that you said that. And in fact, at industry level, there is a lot of prejudice even against the notion of rest and recovery. So just think about LinkedIn as a platform. And I love LinkedIn. I spent a big chunk of my life on the platform, and it's an amazing platform for business. But it's interesting to take note of the fact that when you post on holidays or recovering, depending on the community you are part of, yes. You're going to get, you know, sort of positive engagement. People like, oh, wow, beautiful, where are you? But there is a little voice that also goes, wow, you're taking a lot of time off. Well, you have a lot of time for that. People who work hard don't have time to take breaks like that. Right. And I know that because I was one of the people thinking that back in those years when I burnt up. Right. And the truth is, because we have this, this badge of busyness, and I've learned to take it off and to realize that actually work can be an addiction. And that's something that may not be evident, but in my observation, having been a burnout advisor now for the best part of seven and a half years coming out, I See the patterns and the addictive behavior of folks with work that is so similar to a substance like drug or alcohol.

Yeah.

It's kind of the normalized addiction.

Right.

Like if you talk about being addicted to alcohol or a drug or a pharmaceutical or something like that, it has its own set of. I suppose society has put some stigma on it, but there's also a lot of empathy around it at this point in time, around, oh, okay, this person's suffering, they're suffering with an addiction.

Right.

Whereas when people are addicted to work, workaholic or whatever, then there's. There's not that same, there's not that same sort of empathy, if you will. It's kind of like they're doing this to themselves. Like they don't really have to be doing this. Right. So.

Right.

Anyway, it's interesting, right?

Yeah.

It goes further than. Because at a societal level, if one knows, for example, let's say that I know or you know, that we have a past history with alcohol, you're not going to come up to me and offer me a whiskey. Right. Just out of courtesy and out of respect.

That's right.

In fact, you're going to encourage sober behavior. Same with drugs. If you know I have a history. You're not going to give out the name of a drug dealer. I mean, at least as somebody who cares about my well being. How, how often do you see someone say, let me not, Let me make sure we buffer you from extra work. Let me make sure that we keep you off that client matter, because I know you've got it in you, but actually I can see sign of work addiction. I need to take that substance away from you to prevent you from burnout. No, because at a societal level, more work equals faster track to promotion, access to bonuses, access to more wealth, more resources, more power, more status. So we live in a society where more work, more hours equals more success, in other words. Right, right.

Which, which is an interesting thing. Right, because it gets back to the definition of success. Like what is the definition of success? And why do we, what's, what's actually going to happen when we have more, more power, more wealth, whatever. What, what, what does that do? I think for, for me, the way I kind of think about it is that it makes people feel more safe. Like they've, they have control.

Right.

It's like a need to feel in control so that they feel safe on some level. I think that's still a part of it. I think there's also a joy in creating and co. Creating and being A contributor to where, you know, it's gratifying to help people. Like, I love helping people.

Right.

And I love seeing our clients do great like you love seeing your clients do well.

Right.

There's a certain joy in that, for sure. But there's also, I think a lot of times there's sort of these underlying fears almost that, that drive us to try to get to something. And many times when we get there, we realize that there's nothing there.

Right.

So you've heard that story like a million times. Right. I made it all the way to the top, and I found out there was nothing there. Right. So it's really interesting. I think it's, it's fascinating. Yeah.

Either nothing there or nothing left. Right. Because maybe something.

Yeah. Or both. Right. Or both.

But you become the shadow of yourself. And, you know, in, in my line of work, what I say is very often folks come to see me when they've hit one of the three Ds. So D, number one is divorce. So either you're thinking about divorce or your wife or your husband is telling you, sweetie, if it goes any longer like this, that's not gonna last. And this is what happened to me in my first marriage, you know, a horrendous divorce. And there was a very close connection between my burnout and my divorce.

Yeah.

Married to my ex husband.

Married to your work.

Yeah.

Right, Right. So number one, number D is, is that divorce. Then the second one is the, the diagnosis. So that's actually the medical health scare. So you just had your doctor telling you that you're pre diabetic or that you're moments away from. From a stroke or all of the other.

That's right.

Right. And then that one. And I'm sorry for being a bit morbid, but it's, it's death. Either death in the family or death of a colleague or death of a peer, or even just the thought on contemplation of our own mortality and the realization that actually we may or may not survive our success. So this question that I really like to ask my clients is, okay, so I hear you, I see you. We've just met. If you were to continue to work at the pace that you're currently working at doing the sacrifices that you do for your health and well being, the sacrifices that you do for your personal relationship, what are the odds of you surviving your success? High or low?

Yeah, good question. No, it's a, it's a. It's a poignant question. I think, I think I have it. I haven't found a different solution to it, if you will, which is kind of in the psycho spiritual space. Well, to actually feel safe in feeling connected to source energy, God, purpose, feeling unconditional love, feeling safe, giving myself safety, realizing that nothing external to us can ever make us feel safe. Ultimately all of it can be taken away.

Right.

History shows us that everything can be taken away, even our health. So how do you ultimately feel safe? So that becomes, for me, that becomes a psycho spiritual question. And once you sort of solve that, then you can actually feel safe. Now you actually have the freedom to say, oh no, I'm safe. If I take the afternoon off, I'm still safe. If I take a week off, I'm still safe. And, and yet there's still a passion to want to contribute and bring things forward and create. I think humans are at their best when they're creating. So, you know, being able to do all that super fun, but then also realizing that, that we need to take care of ourselves. And the way I picture that is taking care of my little four or five year old self. It's like he can only do so much before he needs a break.

Right.

And so we're kind of like that. We kind of push so hard that we, we sacrifice our health, even our mental health, for the sake of, of what? You know. Right. So I think if you, if you solve the big questions about meaning and purpose and safety and connection and feeling loved, then it's like, oh, okay, well I'm doing this because I'm called to do this. This is my thing. And now I can, I can modulate it because it's not tied to my, either my identity, my safety, my self worth or any of those kinds of things. That's kind of how I've come to think about it.

I think that's a really good framework. And I wonder to what extent do you find that it helps alleviate performance anxiety or fear of missing out?

Yeah, I don't really have fear of missing out. I think for me it's, and performance anxiety. I always ask myself a question. If I don't feel safe, why is it that I don't feel safe in this situation? What about this is not making me feel safe? And once I ask that question, then it becomes, oh, I don't feel safe because of this or this or this. And some of it could be even older archetypal sort of wounds that I've incurred or traumas that I've experienced or you know, whatever it is. And it's like, oh, okay, well this is related to that. So if this is related to that, then, okay, now I'm getting a handle on it. Now I can actually understand where this is coming from. And I don't have to let it control me. I don't have to live in reaction to it or even flail against it. I can actually embrace it as part of what was there and say, oh, okay, I can make peace with this. And now let me just choose to go a different direction. Right.

So, yeah, yeah, I love it.

It's very powerful. And I wonder if, if that feeling of being unsafe is connected to a fear that is relating to financial security, how do you then soothe that fear? Because there is often with burnout, a very, very strong connection between the desire to continue to strive and provide and be productive and desire to be financially secure.

That's right.

What is a provider?

And that's right.

Fear of financial insecurities is huge. I wonder how your safety framework works with that.

Yeah, it's a great question. So ultimately, what I've come to understand is that finances, money can never make me feel safe.

Right?

So if I don't depend on money to make me feel safe, then I'm not beholden to it. And it doesn't mean that I'm not wise with my financial decisions or that I don't feel like I want to create wealth, to have abundance, to be able to create with it. I love doing that, quite honestly. But it's different than feeling like there's a have to, or I'm going to, or the whole world's going to crater.

Right.

There's kind of a panic in your soul. It's like if you made an investment and you lost it, you would think, I mean, it could, you know, really, it's the human that makes the meaning, right? So you could lose the investment. It could mean one of a million things. Oh, I really learned something interesting there. I'm going to apply that in another situation that's kind of analogous, but I'm going to do it differently. Or it's like, oh, my gosh, I just lost this. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, the sky is falling, right? So it's really how we see it. And so when you, when you kind of realize that there is no failure, that we're only here to learn, we're only here to grow. And then it's like, oh, no, I'll be, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. If I get hit by a bus, I'll be fine too. So it's, you know, it's all good. Right. And I think that's ultimately where safety comes from for me. I can only speak for myself, but ultimately that's where it is. And so, yeah, not to say that I don't have financial objectives or sometimes have concerns.

Right.

Sometimes I do. If something's not going the way I would choose, it's like, oh, well, we need to change something about that. But, but I don't want to get my whole, my whole life tied up in it.

Right.

Because I think that's a trap.

So for sure. And also it's something that really makes you lose perspective.

That's right. It makes you lose perspective. That's right.

That's right.

So I have a lot of clients that are in utterly toxic work relationships. And when they come to see me, one of the reason they hire me as a consultant or burner advisor is to really sort of decipher from the sort of intricate toxic relationship and understand how they navigate that relationship. And exit is not always the solution. Right. I'm not always geared towards an exit strategy. There is a room and space for staying at the firm or the organization. I actually love it when my clients are stay. But I really am very, very wary of fueling a toxic relationship. And, and for me, this first step is to always be aware of whether or not that relationship to work, be it the organization, your boss, the firm, whatever it is. Relationship to work with big word work, is it a healthy one or is it a toxic one? In other words, if you were describing a relationship with your boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, husband, wife, or would I qualify that relationship as healthy or unhealthy? If you gave me the same qualifiers. Right. So when I hear you talk at work, is it a sense of joy, motivation, fulfillment, dedication, passion? Am I hearing those qualifiers? Am I hearing all those terms? When you talk to me, do I see you smile? Do I see this sparkle, this idea? And I can hear you creating your next big idea. I can sense that creative juice flowing in you. Creativity, I think it's such an important test. Are you creative or are you completely jaded Right after burnt out, you're jaded, you're. You're bitter, you're cynical, you're pissed off, you're everything but creative. When I was out, yeah, creativity was not even on the radar. You know, you don't. It's like it's, it's not survival, it's.

More survival mode at that point. Right?

Yeah.

There's no room to create. I'm trying to survive here.

Creativity is so far fetched. It's like sort of, you can't even begin to think about it. You're thinking about just waking up and not collapsing in the office. That's kind of.

Yeah, yeah, no, I get it, I get it.

But I think that if we, if we have a bit of honest, really candid, difficult conversation with ourselves or with an advisor or with a consultant and we actually evaluate our relationship to work and do an honest assessment and an inventory on all those feelings and emotions and thoughts, are they. And that's really something that I want to challenge everyone listening today. Like take your pen, take your paper and evaluate your relationship to work. I want to hear it all. I want to hear the good, the bad, the ugly and everything in between. How is it overall? It's okay to have a rough day. I have rough days too, and I love what I do and I'm far from burning out. But if it's overall this feeling of dooms and glooms and anxiety and overwhelm and this feeling. I have clients that tell me they feel like it can't breathe, that they walk into the office and they have their heart pounding out of their chest because they think they are going to have a panic attack. Well, really, Would you stay in a marriage if that was how you feel every time you walk into a room with your spouse? Right.

Yeah.

No, exactly. No, you're exactly right. I think it's a really good analogy to think of work as another relationship in your life.

Right.

And the people at work as other important relationships in your life. I think, you know, in our, in our work here in longevity, we really have five different areas that we focus on. One is the life energy circle, which is sort of the psycho spiritual space and longevity itself, which are the drivers of aging, the hallmarks of aging, then health and performance, which is, you know, being fit, fast, agile, strong, etc. But the fifth circle is the environments we reside in and architecting those to actually support the mission of being youthful. So the idea is you end up with a 30 year old body and a 300-year-old mind at age 100.

Right.

That's where we're going here. So what kind of environment does it take for you to expand into that 300-year-old mind?

Right.

It can't be a toxic environment. And, and it. And yet I think people many times feel trapped. I'm sure when you talk to some of your clients, they end up feeling trapped because they have a mortgage, they have a wife, they have kids in school, they have this or that. They don't know how they would make a move that wouldn't completely upset the financial apple cart for the family. And so they end up leveraging their health to try to keep that going. But they're actually literally shortening their lives by doing that.

Yeah, absolutely. It's fascinating to see how far I can go. It's not uncommon at all in my line of work to have a client calling me and telling me, you know, they hit the road or they were on a train or they were on a plane and there was a little part of them. However big or small that part may be, it's hard to tell. But there was a part that was kind of hoping that the plane wouldn't land or the car or the train make it. Right. I'm not saying they were suicidal, but they had societal thoughts and ideation. Right. So the idea of just what would be life like if I went around. Yeah. I've had clients go as far as just making sure that, you know, their life insurance policies were really good and strong to make sure their spouses were covered because they contemplated the thought of just being gone. Or when I asked the question, where do you want to go? And. And the client says nowhere. And digging deeper and removing the layers and like, whoa, okay, if. If somewhere was a place, if nowhere was not an option, like, what can you tell me more? Like, what does that look like? What does that feel like? It's like somewhere I'm not found, or I don't have to show up, or I don't want to leave anymore. I don't want to be around. I don't want to wake up tomorrow. And then you have all those thoughts coming up. Or I would rather just not have to face another day. And right quickly when you start to contemplate those thoughts because they can go very far. And that's really the sort of the darkness of. Of the Type A brain. Right. Because it's always small and you're not very nuanced. So there is an all or nothing mindset with a type A hyperproductive folks. And I include myself in that. So it's. I'm gonna get to the pinnacle of the organization or the whatever it is that you. Or I'm gonna be gone. Like, there is no room for in between or nuance or half measures. Right.

So that's right.

And. And I very much thought like that. And in fact, if I'm being really, really honest, the way I recovered from my burnout was not nuanced. I did all or nothing. I went from being a High flying litigator at an American law firm to going to an ashram in India. Total. Right. Except I hadn't seen the movie. But you know, to throw myself into the deep end of spiritualism and meditation because I could not see nuances. Now, having built the insight that I've built and being in a state of wellness that I'm in now, I can see how, you know, how burnt out I was because I could either think, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm a litigator at an American law firm or I'm living with a guru in an ashram in India. This is quite extreme thinking, right?

Yeah, yeah, no, that's right. But sometimes, actually, sometimes it takes the extremes to kind of reset the system.

Right? Yes.

And I'm so grateful for my experience. But don't. When people hear my story and they say, well, Suga, go and quit my job and leave my wife and go to India in an ashram, like, please know that I'm not an advocate for doing that. Right?

Yeah, right, right, right.

It worked for me and it served a purpose. But I'm not saying you need to be that radical. And I think there is a little danger in that radical behavior that you haven't done the deep work yet. And it's true, I hadn't done the deep work yet. I did the deep work there. And then I realized how non nuanced my brain was and how I needed to sort of surrender to the subtle nuances of being a lawyer and being spiritual or being a professional who can work and have a meditative practice, being somebody who can be fit and doing sports and serving my clients. I had to add a lot of hands to my sentences for many, many years. I can be a big attorney at a big American law firm or healthy or a good wife. But I don't think I can do all of that together. And if I have to choose, I'll choose being an attorney over being a wife, over being a stepmom, over being healthy any day, anytime. Right. But over the years with my spiritual practices and my health reset, I learned that actually not only there is an end, but also it's a foundation. So I used to think I can't work out because I need to work hard. Now I think I work, I work hard so hard because I need to work so hard. So if I have a hard workout, then I can do harder work. It's a foundation. Right. I think of myself as a fitness person. That makes me a fitter professional, emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. But I didn't used to think that way. I had a very binary mindset. And I think, yeah, hopefully sharing that makes folks listening realize that maybe having more nuances in their life is a gift.

Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. And in the life energy circle, the first thing on that is actually mindset, which has to do with asking, are you married to your questions or are you married to your answers? And the second part of that is, are you a binary thinker or a quantum thinker?

Right.

So if you're a binary.

Right.

If you're a binary thinker, it's easy to get into a box, Right. If you're married to your answers, it's easy to get into a box, you know, now you feel compelled to defend them, like, yes, of course I need to work, of course I need to do this, whatever.

Right.

But if you're a quantum thinker and you're married to your questions, how do I actually lead the best life I possibly can? How do I actually make the best contribution and maintain my balance and all these other things? Right. So it's the questions that will drive everything. I think then it's like, oh, okay, well, there's probably a different way here. And I think moving away what you did, moving away from the binary thought process into a more nuanced, what I would call quantum way of thinking. Like, oh, there's a better solution here at this time in this position for this. Right then, then that's super helpful. That's really, really, that's really, really cool.

So, yeah, it is. But I'm pretty certain, having seen hundreds, if not thousands of professional burning out, that the burnt out brain can't do nuances very well.

No, they can't. No, it can't. It's, it's in, it's in complete fight or flight. When people come to the office here, right. We actually measure, we do a couple of tests, we do a personality profile that looks at who they are at age 12. Like, what's their sweet spot as a personality? And then what are they being, what are they asking of themselves to be at work?

Right.

And sometimes we find massive differences between who they really are and who they feel they need to show up as at work. And that's. There's inherent stress in that, right? Just. And people normalize it. That's the other thing. It's like, no, it's just part of my job. It's what I do. Well, not exactly. Take a look at this because, you know, you would be much happier if Your job allowed you to do this or more of that or this or that. And they think, yeah, absolutely, it would. It's like, okay, well, there's the stress right there that you're not really able to see, but it's actually, you're wearing it in your system. Because when we measure their nervous system.

Right.

We see that they're under tremendous stress and yet they've normalized it again. So I think it's really, it's really interesting how humans tend to normalize these levels of stress. That can be very unhealthy. And I think equipping them with the knowledge to know. Oh, I didn't realize.

Right.

I think that's a part of the. Part of the process of helping people to change.

Yes. And also perhaps changing the perception around what's normal was not. When you start to normalize, not sleeping well, as you know. Oh, well, who does? Right. I remember this. Oh, you know, this really unhelpful saying, like, oh, who does? Or you sleep when you're dead or. Yes. If you're working hard, you don't have time. Oh, yeah, I can survive on three hours sleep. And all those things that we say that are really fueling this narrative of it's quite normal to not sleep if you want to be a dedicated professional. And actually that is just such a contradiction because you're using your brain and your brain now, from a neuroscientific standpoint, needs sleep. It's unquestionable. There is data, there's science, there is evidence. And that's right thing. That we're somehow superheroes that do not need sleep and found the greatest hack of all. Well, you haven't. You're just two steps away from the biggest burnout of your life.

That's right.

And I know that because I. I used to be an insomniac.

Yeah, you used to do that.

Yeah.

I wonder if there's another element to this too, which is I won. I think in many respects, what we do, we do for love in a way that we want to be lovable. And I think on some level there's a message that in order to be lovable, I need to be a good professional, a good provider. I need to have a certain status. I need and that. That will make me lovable not only for myself, but for other people. I think there's. That's another piece of it too. The safety is part of it also. But then there's that. That lovability. And I think, you know, people can just leverage themselves into total Burnout with the misconceptions of what it takes to actually be lovable or to be safe. And so I think it's really interesting stuff. It's an interesting field you're working in.

Right.

You know, I love that you said that about love, because I get this realization quite often that in my coaching session or even during clinical hypnotherapy, and this is a big moment for my clients where they have a bit of a breakthrough when we talk about love. And actually, it really transpires that they're in relationship either with work or marriages or friendship circles that are not really meeting their love values.

That's right.

Their values, they're actually not really matching. And when you get to a position. So if you have a trance state through clinical hypnotherapy and you actually get to have a person where they meet a part of themselves or they do a inner child meditation, or they go back into their life or past traumatic event and they actually get to meet a part of them, or they get to see their future. And you ask them very safe, guided question around. And if you were that other person, so you put them in a third position, like another position outside of themselves, and you ask them whether they would love the person they've become or the person they used to be or the person they're about to be, there is this big moment of, well, either no or I miss them or I've lost them. So, you know, I get. Clients break into tears when they get to think about their inner child and what that child used to love. And that child loved to. To play and love, to build and love, to create and love.

To love.

And I'm thinking, and now you're adult, does your inner child love the adult side of you? If you were in a room where your adult version of self and your inner child met, would your child play with the adult you've become?

That's a good question. No, it's a really good question. You know, the freedom we have as children, and particularly if we feel loved as a child, if we grow up in an. In an environment where we do feel loved and we have love for ourselves. It's interesting. You know, in all these democratic countries, we talk about freedom, and yet almost everybody signs up to become an indentured servant.

Right.

In their personal life. Like they now become an indentured servant to their job or the firm or the office or the work or the career or, you know, whatever it is. Right. It's fascinating to me that we have a hard time Actually living free in the sense of being safe, being loved, and then creating from that space as opposed to feeling this compulsion to become an indentured servant. So.

Absolutely. But again, I think that most of the time when we're in a state of burnout, we're so far off even beginning to realize that or comprehend total fight or flight is this total sort of collapse of everything that, you know, and hands. The lack of motivation, the feeling of being. And it just perhaps to bring a little bit of hope and. And light to this.

Yeah.

The one thing I would say is burnout is not a permanent state. You know, I've mentioned three months longer, but one thing I know, and I'm very confident about is you can recover. You know, the living proof. I know you are too, and many of us are, you can recover, but you have to be very mindful that you're prone to burning out again. So I watch like oil on fire, because that's right. I do ask myself, am I getting closer to burning out again or am I getting closer to staying in this space of balancing my health and my professional career? And I have to set measures in place. So I've learned that I can't fully trust myself around work like an ex addict can't really trust themselves around the substance. And they need to sober behaviors. I need to have sober behaviors around work. So I need to put.

I think that's right.

And systems and that's how I'm safe.

I think, I think that's. I think that's really wise on your part. I do think that when people are really burned out, it's almost like they need to be put into intensive care.

Right.

It's like it's very difficult to talk to somebody that's going into intensive care about running a marathon next year. It's impossible. It's like I get, you know, I can't even. Not only can I even. Not even imagine, I have no desire to even do it right. So I think there, there has to be kind of an intensive care plan around those people to allow them to rehab to recover. Do you have sort of an intensive care plan for people when they come to you burned out? I. I suspect you probably do. It might be helpful for the audience to hear what that is.

I do burnout interventions. So my coaching program is very separate from my burnout intervention, which is really. It does what it says. It's an intervention. It's usually not between 9 to 5. It's usually been facilitated by an external member. So an organization, a boss, a Spouse, a friend. It's happening sometimes that one person self refer but it's quite rare. So an intervention typically is. Is an external observer, be it a company, a firm, an organization, a family member, friend who looking at that person a being very concerned and worried stages effectively an intervention and that's when I get called in. So it's an intense work in terms of the tightness of it because it needs to be dealt with a very different framework. So again like you would not running a marathon to somebody in intensive care. I am not going to talk about, you know, having very long term goal to somebody who's going 100 because I even have long term future things in.

An appropriate conversation quite honestly.

Yeah.

So it's, it's the now, it's the here and my method and framework, it starts with the physiology. So I always start with physiology. I always go back to the body, to how the body can be safe, added nervous system, the brain, the breath and making sure that your physiological body can be the foundation upon which we build back your health. I always start there. Yeah, have psychological interventions and you should have psychological interventions. But I need to know that I have a solid physiological foundation because if I do psychological intervention the person is like gasping for hair or having.

No, that's right. It's calming the nervous system. Is actually getting the nervous system to actually calm down in a way.

Right.

That's the key thing. And allow it to have rest to where it's not feeling panicked and yeah. All the stress. Yeah, it's, it's, it's really, it isn't. It's a nervous system. Rehabilitation is kind of what's required before you can even start to delve into the how did we get here and how, where do we go from here? Those are. Yeah, those are down the road. That's like talking to your coach about how do we start training when you're in the icu.

Right.

Those are, they're inappropriate conversations in the icu.

Always tell my clients during a burnout intervention when you hear me ask you about your past or talk to you about your future. We're no longer in the intervention phase. When in the intervention it's the right here, right now where you're at and we intervene. How did your dad and mom influence the way you think, move and talk and what do you want to do in terms of your legacy and leadership to the world? We get to that when we can thrive again. Right. So I don't do paths of future pacing. Focus intervention. I deal with now the physiological reset and then we get psychology to make sure we don't repeat the pattern and prevent another bout of burnout.

So it's kind of like somatic therapy in a way. It's really allowing someone to come into control or a feeling of control in their body and in their nervous system, as opposed to being sort of out of control or completely depleted.

Right.

And so it's, it's somatic therapy. If you're listening to that, that's really, it's really body based therapy, which is in essence nervous system slash body based therapy. And that's a really, really important thing to know. If you are flirting with burnout or you're feeling like you might be headed down that path, that's the best place to start. Not with, you know, envisioning new horizons or whatever. It's really about getting your nervous system back aligned, making it feel loved and safe and nurtured.

Right.

I think that's, that's a key piece. So.

Yeah, I love that you said that. Because when I have folks asking me during the first meeting, should I quit my job, should I say, you're not in a state to even make a decision?

That's right.

Because if you make that decision in the state you're in, I'm not sure this is going to be a decision that really serves you in the long term. So I actually, I actually hold things back. So even if I'm forced into, I need to make that decision. And I know you do, but not now. But we're gonna work on how you can make that decision. Being in the most optimal state you can make that decision in like that. That is really important to, to understand. And of course you get pushback and. Objection. But I think that if you get that self awareness piece first and you understand that everything starts with the body and the physiology and the somatic work, you're already a long way ahead. And you're certainly ahead of where I was back when I. That's why I'm so grateful for my yogic practice in India. Because it really, truly was a somatic intervention of sort, which I didn't realize. Right. But it is.

That's right. That's what it was. Yeah, exactly. No, that's quite beautiful. I'm, I'm really starting to realize that burnout and flirting with burnout is really, it's analogous to kind of a medical emergency where someone would need to be in an intensive care unit.

Right.

I think that it's really, it's that serious, it's that systemic and it's it's that important to actually drop away everything else and just focus on. On getting that person kind of back to a state of equilibrium, healthy. Everything else can wait, quite honestly. So, yeah.

Even deadlines. Will you believe it? I promise you they can. I know it's hard to believe, but they can. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Beautiful. Well, it's been lovely chatting with you, Charlene. I know you have another call coming up here in a couple of minutes, but it is.

It's a burnout intervention, so.

Oh, okay. Well, that's an important call to get to, so. Yeah. Well, great. Hopefully you feel energized by this conversation, so.

Absolutely. I've. I've loved your energy and your generosity through the questions and your insights. I love the way your brain work, and I think you've asked very powerful questions, so I'm very grateful for that exchange. Thank you.

Beautiful. Yeah, it's lovely conversation. I really appreciate your insights as well. So. Awesome. Well, great. Well, we'll chat again.

All right, thank you.

Okay, bye.

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