Why Authentic Relationships Are the Ultimate Anti-Aging Hack - Ep. 328

What is the point of living to a ripe old age in a very healthy body if you don't have the relationships that are actually the sweetness of that life and the joy of that life?

Today I'm going to be talking with Sarah Fisk. Sarah's a certified life coach. She's a host of the Ex Good Girl podcast. She is really a fascinating person to talk to. This was one of the more interesting conversations I've had on this podcast. And we go down the rabbit hole on people becoming the full expression of who they are, here on Earth to become. And it, it cuts across both men and women. So this is equally applicable to men as it is to women. And we go into that right from the get-go. But it's a really fascinating conversation. So I hope you enjoy it half as much as I, as I did recording it.

He went from saving hearts as a cardiologist to rewriting the entire aging playbook. Dr. Jeffrey Gladden believes 100 is the new 30, and he's got the science to back it up. This is the Gladden Longevity Podcast.

Sarah, welcome to the Gladden Longevity Podcast. It's good to have you here.

So excited to be here.

Okay. Well, tell me how excited you really are.

I could have this conversation every day and twice on Sundays. I'm so—

Okay.

Yeah. This intersection of like women being free to be who they are and speak up and how it impacts their mental, emotional, physical health. All day, every day.

Okay. I love it. Yeah, I love it. I think it's a really interesting thing. You know, we're talking about women. And I think one of the interesting things is that I think it cuts across humanity, quite honestly. Right. I think just so guys don't feel left out as they're listening to this, it's really about humans in general. And certainly women have their own ways in which they're coached to be the good girl. Right. And boys are coached to be the good boy. And we can all end up in sort of maybe not straitjackets, but certainly constraints that keep us away from who we really are. And that's a really interesting topic. So tell me about your good girl past, not about your bad girl past.

Well, I just want to say, you know, off the top, yeah, these systems that teach us how to be, right? Patriarchy is one of them. Isn't kind to men or women, right? It really kind of pigeonholes us into these ways of being that we feel like we have to adopt and act out so that we can get what we want, which is connection and safety and some dignity if we can, you know, have some of that in there too.

And love. And love, actually. Right? Yeah. The things we do, we do for love is one way to think about it, right? To be lovable. Yeah.

And that's so helpful to remember because so often what we do to be loved comes out as really unlovable behavior. Oh, yeah. But it is really searching for that love underneath.

Yeah, it's interesting too, because in the process, we start to identify parts of ourselves that we feel are unlovable.

That's right. Yeah.

Right. And so now, now unacceptable, unlovable. It's a little bit of Carl Jung, right? So the shadow work and the parts of ourselves that we feel like we have to keep in the shadows. And yet the interesting thing is that, to your point, when they're kept in the shadows, when they're not really brought forward and given a voice and integrated, then they do act out, right? And now we act out the bad girl or the bad boy because that voice was never really brought into the conversation in the first place. It was kind of, right?

Yeah.

It was suppressed.

Yeah. Yeah. Or in the case of a lot of women, we continue to act out what we were told was expected of us as a good girl. And that works for a little while and we feel rewarded. We feel connected. We feel like, yeah, I'm worthy at work. I'm valuable in my home. But at a certain point, those old strategies don't work anymore and we end up feeling really stuck and really lonely and really resentful. And so, this is as much a conversation about outgrowing old strategies I'm learning how to kind of be in a new way because if pleasing people and if doing what they wanted me to do was how I learned to get love and acceptance, at a certain point, pleasing other people and being who they want me to be prevents them from knowing the real me and prevents us from having an actual connection based on who I really am and what I really want. And that ends up feeling very lonely.

Very lonely, very isolating. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've talked about in relationships is that for me, kind of the gold standard in any relationship is to know and be known and to love and be loved. Right. And that's a courageous process, right? The vulnerability to make yourself known, the bandwidth to actually hear somebody else, right? And who they really are and not judge, but to actually work to understand and accept, right? So yeah.

And what you're talking about is a skill, right, that we are not taught, which is how do I tolerate discomfort? How do I tolerate the discomfort of being in a relationship with you where you tell me things that I might not want to hear or where I need to show up for you in ways that I don't know how to? But luckily those are all skills and they can be learned.

Yeah. So how did you, how did you, um, I mean, we all sort of bump into this, quite honestly, we all bump into this, whether we recognize it, acknowledge it or not. What was, what was the story for you? How did you start? When did you first start bumping into it? It could have been at age 10. It could have been at age 22. I don't know. It could have been anywhere in there, maybe age 6, who knows?

So, you know what, Dr. Gladden is a little bit later than that. I was literally a 42-year-old woman who was afraid to stop going to the church I was raised in. Because it would disappoint my parents.

Okay, there it is.

Yeah. And so when I kind of look back at, you know, where all of this started, I was raised in a very conservative religion that really kind of handed me this list of things that I was supposed to be and do so that God would be happy with me and so that my community would be happy with me. And there were very detailed things that were acceptable and not acceptable. And so I did what any human would do, I set about to learn the rules of how to belong and to take on those roles that were handed to me. I'm the oldest of, you know, 6 children. There's some roles for eldest daughter to inhabit, right? I am, you know, religious, and so there were some roles handed to me there. And so I just kind of set about to learn how to be the best in that community that I could be. And anyone who's listening, You can identify some of the different communities that you're a part of, whether they're cultural or, you know, religious or community-based, that hand us these lists. Here's who you have to be to belong and to be safe and to get love in this community.

Yeah. And I think quite honestly, you know, I can't imagine that there's a culture on planet Earth where that isn't the case.

That's correct.

I mean, that's true. That's pretty much what cultures are, is basically grooming behavior, right?

That's right. We have to know who's in our group and who's out of our group. At one point, that's how you survive, knowing who's in and who's out. And then today, we just, that's such a human thing to have a group and you show you belong by these particular things. You show you don't belong by these particular things. And we're always trying to manage conformity versus individuality.

Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. So there you are at age 42. You've been— what was the religion? Was it Catholicism or—

No, Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Mormon. Okay. So you grew up in that culture and at age 42, was there— were there cracks showing in the walls or there was a break or there was— how— what was the transition? All about. Yeah.

Yeah. I have two queer kids and they had, one had come out at that point. And in the way Mormonism is, you know, structured that there isn't a place for people who are queer. And, um, I still have a lot of love and appreciation for some of the things that I learned there. And I could clearly see the path that was going to be open to me and to my children if we stayed. And it wasn't a path that I, that I wanted for them. I had seen it play out in the lives of other people, in the lives of my own. My brother-in-law is also gay and came out as a Mormon a long time ago. And just the, the weight, the heaviness of his experience, I didn't want that for my kids. And so I began to really grapple with what that what that meant for me and what that meant for kind of this lifelong path that I thought I would be on forever.

Right. So really, as a loving, as a loving mother, loving parent, wanting the best for your children, this is what kind of brought you to the existential moment, if you will, the existential crisis. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah.

Yeah. And I think there are— I hear a lot of women who come up against, you know, something like this where they see something that is happening and they see how it's playing out in the lives of their children. And sometimes they're a little hard on themselves, like, "Why couldn't I just do it for me? Why couldn't I make these changes or make these, you know, take these healthy steps just for me?" And I just think we do things for our children, for those we love, that we won't necessarily always see a way to do for ourselves. And that's totally okay. There's no problem with that.

Yeah, you know, whatever the pebble is in your shoe that actually gets you to take it off and start to look around at what's happening, right? That's, that's, it doesn't matter what the pebble is as long as you come across that. So yeah, well, that's interesting. So then did both your kids come out at the same time or they came out?

Yeah, it's actually my oldest and my youngest. And so my daughter came out when she was about 16 and we had a very kind of open dialogue in our house about sexuality and And so to her, it was just something she wanted me to know about herself. And internally, I just began, it's almost like this timer started where I was like, okay, we cannot, we can't stay. I don't know how I'm going to extricate myself from this. It is terrifying. It is on multiple levels. It was my worldview. It was my, you know, a lot of my political views, a lot of everything of just how I saw the world was through that very conservative lens. Lens, and it took some doing to extricate myself from that.

It's a tight-knit culture, quite honestly, the Mormon culture. I didn't grow up in the Mormon culture. I grew up in Catholic neighborhoods. I came up in a Protestant tradition, basically. But yeah, those cultures are very tight-knit, and they're very— what shall I say? There's kind of a reinforcing, constant reinforcing of stuff, right? So Yeah. So actually to make the break, decide to make the break, you might even be able to remember it's the time when you were, I don't know, sitting in a chair or waking up in the morning or going to bed at night thinking, okay, okay, we're actually going to do this. Was there an actual moment like that where it's like, okay, we're actually going to do this?

Yes. There were multiple moments of like, this needs to happen. This is happening. Oh my gosh, this is happening. And your, your comment about the tight-knit quality of that community, I appreciate that because it wasn't just the loss of like a place to go on Sunday. It was the loss of my entire community, my friendships, the way I made meaning in the world, the, the, the friends that I literally hung out with, the assignments that I completed on behalf of my community every week. It was the loss of of everything. And there was so much grief and so much, like there were days when it felt like the ground was moving under my feet. Like I, what's stable? What is reliable? What is up? What is down?

Yeah. And was your, were you married at the time? Was your husband going through this with you? Yeah.

And he had gone through it kind of in a different way before then. And he had actually already left the church, but I had kind of doubled down a little bit. Like, well, okay. If he's going to leave, then I need to be the one who stays and who really sees this through for our kids.

Got it. Got it. Got it. So I'm curious how this played out for, for you and the family. So he was already, he had already, I don't know what the term is. Let's just say left. And then you were now following. He must've been excited about that on some level, I would think, right? Certainly encouraging potentially or supportive. Yeah.

And one of the things that we had to figure out was how do we honor, like, my experience and your experience in this? And we were not fantastic at communicating. And so there were a lot of times when that felt really intractable. It's like, where, where, where's my place in this and where is yours? Because it seemed to be pulling us in two very opposite, very different directions.

Okay. So your leaving was going down one trajectory and his leaving was going down a different trajectory. Is that what I'm hearing? Is it sort of?

Yeah. Well, he had left first while I was still trying to stay. And then when our daughter came out, that set me on that same trajectory.

Okay. So then you joined trajectories with him. So at that point, okay. And then what about the other kids? I'm curious about the other four. Right, of the 6, how did they, where are they in all of that? Because they were also growing up in a close-knit community with friends and schools and church and everything else going on. So, I mean, it's, they're a little bit along, like kids are, they're a little bit along for the ride, right? So, but how did that play out?

One of the things that became really important was to make it explicit that you are having your own experience at the same time that you're having an experience in our family and in our group. Because I think the individuality of kids is something that a lot of times we just kind of gloss over as adults. We really just want them to like get on board and do what we think they should do. And in a lot of ways they need the guidance of, you know, wise, experienced adults. But one of the first conversations we had We sat everybody down and we said, this is Dad's experience, this is mine, both matter. And for now, what we've decided is that we're going to continue to go as a family, but I want you to begin to pay attention to your own experience here because someday you will make this decision for yourself.

Okay.

Someday you're going to get to decide whether or not you want to be a part of this community. And for now, Based on what we know today, we're just going to continue down this path. And if it changes in the future, we'll adjust.

Okay. Well, that was, you know, that was very insightful of you to actually lay it out for them that they too will have agency and choice, right? So in a way, it was a different message than probably you got growing up, which was the good girl message or the good boy message, right? You were actually saying at an early age for that, or an earlier age for them, that you too will have agency or do have agency. See on some level. Is that what I'm hearing too?

Yes, like you are a person, and as you get to know the person that you are and compare it to these experiences that you have that will feel good or that will feel bad or that will feel weird or off or, you know, really connected, it's important for you to pay attention to that.

Yeah, okay. So, um, are all the kids still at home or they're, they're all out now or they're half and half, or where is everybody?

Everyone is out of the church. Um, the 3 older kids are out of the house as well, and so we've got 2 still at home. But it continues to just be a really beautiful expansion of who are you, what experiences do you want, how can we help that, you know, as a parent, or how can we plug you further into knowing who you are and then give you the skills to speak up for what it is that you want.

Right. So what you've done, it sounds like, is— and if you're listening to this, what Sarah's done is she's now taken the insights that she's learned from transitioning away from what the construct of a good girl was into the construct of what we'll call being a better girl, right? As opposed to a bad girl, a more fully expressed girl, a more completely herself girl. And so now you've taken this message to a lot of other women, as I understand it. Is that correct? Tell us a little bit about that. How did, how did that come about?

At the time that kind of my church faith was changing, I was also becoming trained as a life coach. And interestingly enough, my, my first kind of area that I started to focus on was weight loss. Because I wanted to contribute to some kind of health metric for myself. But I kind of lost the curiosity about that when my curiosity was much more piqued by my own inability to speak up. I witnessed myself over and over again hold back, edit myself, not share my opinions, not speak up in different coaching training classes and situations. And I was so puzzled because I could say no, right? Like I could say no to an appointment or an assignment that I didn't want to take on. But there were some situations where it felt like when it was time to be vulnerable and say like, actually, I can't do this. I don't know how to do this. I need more help and more support. I would just not— I would freeze. I would totally freeze up. And I would have this thought like, come on, I'm a smart person. If I'm so smart, why can't I speak up here? What is it? About this. And I actually had no idea how deeply kind of mired in people pleasing I was, because inside of my Mormon community, that was highly rewarded. Like doing what everybody else wanted you to do and kind of proving your worth externally, you're supposed to do it. And so that dynamic, it was initially a little confusing to me of like, what is this? What's going on? And when I finally saw that my terror to disappoint other people, my terror to do anything that might make them think I was bad or wrong was really what was underneath all of it.

So in essence, you were going to become unlovable.

That's right.

Right.

That's right. Yeah.

By speaking up, you were going to become unlovable because ultimately it comes back to ourselves, right? Yes, it was about them, but it's really about you in the end, right? So, or us in the end. Yeah, I get it. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So then how did you get past that? Because there certainly are many, many people out there that struggle with that same, that same thing. Was it a, was it an insight? Was it psychotherapy? Was it hypnosis? Was it a light bulb moment? Something you read, a conversation you had, or a combination of many things? Or how did it work?

All of those things over a period of time. When I had kind of that big initial realization of like, oh my gosh, I think this is people pleasing. I was in a, a master coach training program, and one of the requirements was that we design some kind of program or curriculum. And so what I decided to do was to get very skills-based, because that's my background. I'm a, I'm a teacher, and so I think in like structures and skills. And if this is the outcome, walking it backward to what do I need to get there? And so if I want to stop people pleasing, What do I have to learn how to do that I don't yet know how to do? And so I wrote a 6-week curriculum just for me, how to stop people pleasing. I really thought, you know, 6 weeks, I'll have it.

Okay, 6 weeks.

And then as I, I had to trial that with women, and I had women join the program, and I kind of watched how, you know, this structure that I've created, how is it actually working in other people's lives? And I expanded it and expanded it and it became what I do today, which is a 6-month group coaching program that really targets those skills that women need to speak up, to stop people pleasing, to have their own back, to learn how to trust themselves, and to know who they are.

And I suspect that in doing that, you're actually creating another community for these people, right? Where they can now align with other folks that are on the same journey, right? So that's kind of, you're leaving one community and then you're in, you're basically in no man's land is what it feels like, right? Because there is no community now, and now you're creating a new community, not only for yourself, but for others in a way, right? That are focused on these things. Yeah.

That's exactly right. One of the things that I hear over and over from women is, you know, we get into late 30s, early 40s, 50s, sometimes even 60s, and we have this sense that something is not right. I can't speak up. You know, my husband, we have these limitations on our relationship. I can't tell him how I feel about this or this. And my friendships, I really wonder if my friendships would survive if I stopped being the one who planned everything and called everybody. But the way that the human psyche works is towards self-blame. Like, what's wrong with me? What's my problem? Why can't I do this? What is it going to take to finally make me speak up, rather than seeing it as these are skills you weren't taught. And of course, this is who you are today. That's who you were taught to be. And so having that community of women that they can come into where they're really, they can see, oh, it's not me. I'm not the one who is broken or somehow, you know, not fixable because that's, I think, one of our core fears as a human, that there's something like extra special, super broken, just about me. And when you come into a community and you see, oh, this is the system.

No, I'm like everybody else.

I am like everyone else who was raised in this particular system.

Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's interesting. I think that one of the things that I've come to discover in relationships is this idea of knowing and being known and loving and being loved, right? And that requires vulnerability. It also requires a willing other who actually wants to know you, right? So you're not gonna do that with everybody, not everybody on the bus. But when you find people that are able to have those kinds of conversations, then even still, from my perspective, it takes a lot of courage to have what I call courageous conversations, because it's not a one and done. It's not a one and done kind of scenario. It's actually a commitment to a process of courageous conversations where you are bringing up the stuff that this may end the relationship, but this is on my heart and I need to bring it forward. But it's authenticity to yourself at that point, realizing that if you're authentic with yourself, that ultimately enables you to bring all of your gifts forward. Because without that, you're going to feel like you're in a straitjacket and you're not really going to be able to provide the world what you're really here to provide the world with. Right. So it's an ongoing— I think life itself is an ongoing act of courage. Right.

It is. And I love how you frame that. And it's even harder when you know what you should do. Like, "I should speak up. I should say this." But you just can't because what you're naming right there, there's actually two really critical skills. How do I find the words that really encapsulate what I want to say? And how do I tolerate the discomfort of saying them? And if you're not, if you don't have someone to explain that to you, it just sounds like advice with no instructions, which can feel so frustrating and actually can contribute to the, what the heck is the wrong, what's wrong with me that I can't just do this?

That's right. I think what's critical is to find a safe ear, right? That's generally a safe ear. And you may be bringing something up that even they would have a hard time listening to or accepting or whatever it might be. But nonetheless, someone that you've identified as having a safe ear. And so you have courageous conversations that build on each other. It's almost like a ladder that you're climbing, right, to get to the top. And even then, it's courageous conversations. So it's really fascinating, this idea of individuation, this idea of becoming who we really are. The whole, again, back to a little bit of the Carl Jung piece about pieces of ourselves that we don't— it's not even that somebody else would judge us, It's just that we're not even sure about them ourselves. Right?

That's right. Yeah.

So even having courageous conversations with ourselves to bring these other pieces forward, right, before you even bring them forward to anybody else, that's a piece of the process too, I imagine.

Yeah. Absolutely. When I work with women in my group coaching program, I always say we're going to start with less risky conversations first.

There it is.

That just means you're going to build these skills and build your confidence in lower-risk situations first. So for example, I had a client who would walk to work. She would go to the same Starbucks. She would get her coffee. 3 out of the 5 times it would be the wrong drink. It was a very busy place. And she would just take the drink and drink it. She was so worried about what would happen if she slid that drink across the counter and she was like, 'You know what? This isn't what I ordered. Can we try that again?' So that's the conversation we worked up to first.

Yeah.

It's a low-risk, you know, low-lift situation where you can practice skills and build confidence without big consequences.

Right. That being said, for that individual, it felt like a big lift and it felt like—

That's right. That's exactly right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And so her process of starting with something more accessible, right? She actually looked up, she's like, well, if it tanks at this Starbucks, I can just start going to this other store.

Go to another Starbucks. Right?

I can just cut my losses. But I want to get back to something that you said that is just so beautiful in that knowing and being known. Those are the relationships that make life worth living because what is the point of living to a ripe old age in a very healthy body if you don't have the relationships that are actually the sweetness of your life and the joy of that life.

That's right. Yeah, it's, it's right. It's really kind of a tragedy to think about having a healthy body and yet never really having healthy relationships. Right. And the first relationship is a relationship with yourself, quite honestly. Having the courageous conversations with yourself and then being able to branch out and then be able to build a network of those kind of courageous conversations. It's kind of a tragedy, but there's a flip side to that coin. It's not only a personal tragedy, but there's a tragic element for the rest of the world too, because you never get a chance to really bring forward all the things that you have to offer, right?

Yeah. I keep this quote on my desktop. It's by Martha Graham.

I see one behind you right now.

Yeah, this is, this is kind of what guides a lot of my work, and it's a quote from The Wizard of Oz. Basically says, you've always had the power, my dear. You just had to learn it for yourself. It was always there. And Martha Graham, who I was— I'll just summarize— she basically says there's only one of you, and if you never do what you are meant to do in the world, the world will never have that. Because no one else can do it. And so when we think about like my vision for, you know, not just women, but humanity, it's this flourishing that happens when everyone feels free to be who they are and to be known and loved for that.

That's right. You know, the interesting thing is that what makes it feel a little bit risky, I think, for people is that there's a lot of judgment out there, right? There are a lot of people judging other people. And one of the things that I've come to realize in my own spiritual journey, and I'm no longer really attached to a particular religion despite my background, but I've never been more spiritual or more spiritually connected, right? For sure. So in a place where you are sort of spiritually moving towards being fully expressed, reaching a point of quote unquote, whatever that means, enlightenment or your perspective, you, you kind of get to a point where you stop judging. You have discernment, but you're not judging, right? And I think a lot of people feel empowered by their ability to judge, whether it's from a religious perspective, a political perspective, a cultural perspective. They feel empowered by their ability to judge. And what I've realized is that judging is kind of the lowest common denominator of anything, right? Because anybody can judge, right? What I think takes more internal courage is to drop judgment and actually learn to become more empathetic, realizing that my experience is not your experience. I'm curious to know who you are, right? How does that work for you? Right? And in that empathy, That's the place from which we can start to know and be known. And it's very difficult to step into a judgmental room where people are going to be judging and actually have that kind of conversation unless you can draw them into the conversation through, you know, a longer intro, so to speak. Right. But I think it's really important if you're listening to this to understand that empathy for each and every person on the planet, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, nationality, political you know, whatever it is, right? Whatever, you know, demarcation you might make, that judging really doesn't bring us any closer together. Doesn't really move the ball forward. Discernment, on the other hand, is very important. What's useful? What's appropriate at the moment for me or for them? Or, you know, what's safe for my children or whatever? That discernment is very important. But judgment, I don't— I've kind of lost my appetite for it. So I don't know. Interesting.

I think it's interesting to look at what that judgment is doing, what that job, the job that it performs, because it's a really important, actually, safety valve, right? Because if I, in my, you know, old way of thinking, if I am looking at something that is, you know, forbidden in my Mormon upbringing, like pornography, right? I have to fear that and reject it so that I am kept safe from it and I don't participate in it, which will then get me kicked out of my community. Mm-hmm. So seeing that that judgment is actually an overprotective part of me that's just trying to keep me safe gives me a different way of looking at that because then I can create safety in different ways that allow me to drop some of that judgment and move into discernment. But I think until we recognize that it's not the judgment itself that is bad. That judgment is trying to help and it's trying to keep me safe. Do I need that judgment anymore?

That's right. Yeah, we use it because it makes us feel safe, right? It makes us feel like we can discern, right? But what I'm saying is that if you're going to have a courageous conversation, it's much more helpful to be having a courageous conversation with someone that's empathic, that's curious, than with someone who's judgmental. Right? Right. Like how many conversations did I ever have with my mom or my dad where it was judgmental on one hand or another? So anyway, it's just a reflection on that, that if you're listening to this, I think part of it, the courageous conversations, is also being receptive to someone else broaching a topic that's courageous for them to bring up with you and to not stand in judgment of it, but to stand in sort of an empathetic curiosity to deeply understand because again, it's to know and be known and to love and be loved. How do we build a more loving relationship through this deeper understanding? Right. So, yeah.

Yeah. And then what you're talking about then is another skill, right? How do I tolerate the uncertainty or the, I don't know where this is going when somebody else brings something to my attention? How do I remain open to what they're telling me and not make it mean that I'm bad or that they're going to leave me or that they're dissatisfied? It's another skill that points to like our capacity to be able to tolerate discomfort.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's right. Yeah. It's fascinating. So I bet there's, I bet there are a lot of people lined up to take your course because it seems like almost everybody on the planet must be suffering from this. Right.

I think they are. And I think one of the, you know, Esther Perel, I'm a big fan. And I heard her say that the quality of our relationships is the quality of our life. And when, when you are, you know, someone who has gotten to a certain age and you look around and you're feeling some resentment and some loneliness, some dissatisfaction, disconnection, I think the normal question is, well, how do I fix it? And because we don't do a lot of teaching about relationship skills, how to have a difficult conversation? What do I do first? What do I do second? Having a place where you have someone like me who can break these down literally into skills. First you do this, next you do this, then you do this. And learning that in a really supportive community of other women, it's really magical.

Yeah, I can imagine it's really magical. I know for me, it's also a question of timing. Like it's not always— it may be the right person, but it may not be the right time to have that conversation, right? So it's a question of if you have something on your heart you want to bring forward, the idea is to find the right person at the right time in the right context with the right surroundings that will support, you know, being able to sort of lean into it and not be like, well, I've got 4 minutes, let me hear what you got, what's on your mind, right? Right. So it's that kind of thing, And for a lot of people, it's not—

it's in addition to that, like, how do I do it the right way? But will I be able to tolerate it if it goes the wrong way?

Yeah.

What will I do to myself? Or how will I treat myself if this doesn't go the way I want? Or if it doesn't get the outcome that I'm really hoping for? And that's where a lot of women just kind of go into self-blame and self-criticism.

Yeah. You know, I think in my experience of doing— of having courageous conversations, I will say that many times if I start a courageous conversation, I have the experience of actually standing outside myself, watching myself say what I'm saying, saying, I can't believe I'm about to say what I'm going to say, but here I am saying it, right? So then if I have that going on, then I know it's a courageous conversation. And the point about that is that because I'm standing outside of here, actually listening to myself say something that I think, you know, I don't know how this is going to go down for the other person. And it's usually not a critical thing. It's usually me, you know, something that's on my heart that I want to bring forward. Then it almost gives you the perspective of also being able to observe the response. As opposed to receiving the response, you're actually observing whatever that response is, which then puts you in a perspective of learning from the entire scenario. Like being curious, like, I wonder, like, in other words, I'm bringing this forward. I can't believe I'm going to bring it forward. I wonder how this is going to go down. Right. So now I'm sitting here watching it. Geez, I wonder how this is going to go down. And then seeing it come back and it's like, well, I guess could have gone a little differently. I wonder, you know, blah, blah, blah. Or you see what I'm saying? So you're not like taking the, it's a little bit like Keanu Reeves in The Matrix, right? Where he bends back and the bullets go by as opposed to getting hit. It's like, oh, well, that's interesting, right? And what are we learning here, right? And if you're working with somebody that's also emotionally intelligent, then you can actually even flip the script and kind of take different vantage points as you work through the whole thing too. So anyway, that's kind of a gift if you can find people to talk to like that.

It is. And what I want to say is even when you can't find those people, it's the great conversation matters because it's information about that relationship and the limitations of it that we want to have. And I think sometimes we get scared of either asking the question or having the conversation because it will be sad to see those limitations and name them for real. I had a situation with my dad. He and I were incredibly close, you know, when I was still going to church. And then afterward, it just was hard for me to see how much of our relationship was really just wrapped up in talking about church things. And so I was having a birthday and I called them to invite them over for dinner, and he said that he had a number of church assignments on that, on my birthday, that he had to complete. And the old me would have protected him and his feelings, like, don't ask him any uncomfortable questions, don't, you know, put him in a position. And I would have said, okay, Dad, you know, that's okay, we'll just celebrate later. But because I was in the practice of having these courageous conversations, I pushed it a little and said, okay, but Dad, I don't think anybody at church would be confused if you said, I'm not going to do these things because it's my daughter's birthday. And he said, well, you know, well, they're just really expecting me and I, this is what I said I would do. And at that point, there was another kind of injunction where I could have said, okay, all right, well, that's okay. We'll celebrate later. But what I decided to do was say, so Dad, are you telling me that you're not willing to reschedule those things? So that we can have dinner on my birthday. And my heart's pounding like right now as I recounted to you. And it was very much the same in the moment because that was taking a chance on being very clear so that I could see the limitations of our, of our relationship. And he said, I guess that's what it means. And I said, okay, thank you. And I hung up. Cried my eyes out, right? Because that grief response is very normal. But now I realize like, okay, so I don't have to pour a bunch of time and energy into that relationship because this is the level of connectedness and vulnerability that we have achieved. And I don't have to keep trying for more.

Yeah, no, it's a really, it's a really good insight. So there again, even though it's the greatest conversation, you're able to stand outside and see how it goes down, right? Yes, cry your eyes out. I get that., but you're still observing. You're still, you learn so much either way. You learn so much about the, either the nature of the relationship or, you know, whatever it is. Right. So that's very, very cool. Have you heard of Imago therapy by any chance? I haven't. Okay. So this is a, it's a construct for having a courageous conversation that I learned about a number of years ago that is really very, very interesting. So basically the setup is let's say you and I were going to have an Imago conversation. And it was about something. Let's make it about your birthday because I've actually had this conversation. So in an Imago conversation, you have your world, your universe, right? I have my universe over here. And in an Imago conversation, what's going to happen is you're going to invite me over the bridge into your world, right? And before you do that, you're going to give 3 positive affirmations about me, and then you're going to invite me in., and then we'll take turns, and then I'll say 3 affirmations about you. Once you're complete and feel complete, I'll have 3 affirmations about you and invite you over into my— or across the bridge into my world. And when I'm in your world, the only thing that I am permitted to do is to basically reflect what I hear you saying and to ask if I got that right. And is there more? Is there something else that's on your heart or that you'd like to say? Things like that. So very sort of therapeutic language. If you will. But in going through that, the structure of it can be incredibly helpful because it impedes the reflex that we have to want to respond or to judge. So it takes judgment off the table. It takes responding off the table. It basically just focuses on the act of getting to know and getting to know and getting to know. And I'll tell you, when it first came out for me, I was dating a woman at the time who, her idea about her birthday was that she was so adamant that whatever day of the week it fell on, that we had to celebrate that day. And for me, it's like, I don't care what day we celebrate, right? It's like, we'll do it on the weekend. We'll do it on Sunday, Saturday, whatever, Friday night. And I couldn't quite understand it. And so we actually used this construct and she invited me over the bridge. And then she proceeded, and in my being able to just reflect back what I heard, I got all the way through to understanding that, oh my gosh, her father had always prioritized her older sister. Her younger brother had never prioritized her. That, you know, on and on and on. And it was like, by the end of it, I'm like, oh my gosh, we are going to celebrate your birthday like there's no tomorrow, right? The day it's on, that is, you know, bless that day. So my point is that when you create a construct like that, it enables people to get past some of the reflexes of either judging or responding or reacting in a way that enables people to have these, you know, get to know, you know, know and be known, love and be loved kind of conversation. So anyway, I found it to be a useful tool.

Yeah. As long as there is a, like a structure with some steps, that's so helpful. Right? For a lot of people, it just feels, you know, like this impenetrable thing that I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to just talk about how I feel. I'm supposed to, you know, not try and pretend. And having any kind of a structure is so helpful.

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. Well, it sounds like you're doing amazing work in the world. I'm sure these women are benefiting. And quite honestly, what would be interesting I'll give you an idea, would be to do a couples workshop, right?

Those are a lot of fun.

Yes, I've worked with a lot of couples. I'm sure you do. Okay, there it is. But I'm sure those are a lot of fun too, right? Because now you're kind of bridging, bridging over. And it might be interesting, you maybe you do this too. I'm just thinking out loud to run some men's workshops and then bring the two together. So the men don't come into something feeling like, well, the women have been training over here, playing soccer for 4 years. And now I'm coming in to play a game. I don't even understand.

Right. So. Yeah, that is actually the— I work with men privately and I haven't yet done a men's group, but the most common thing that I hear from them is, I won't know how to handle all that my partner wants to share with me. It's going to overload me. I'm not going to know how to respond in the right way. She's going to make that think, or she's going to make that mean that I don't care about her. And I don't know what to do. So I just withdraw. Or I just, you know, pretend that I'm listening. And I kind of, I'm in this pretending, but we don't have the actual connection. But it's because I'm afraid I won't react right.

Right. Well, again, they don't, they don't feel like they don't feel like they're not a skilled dribbler, right? On the soccer field. Right. And so they need to have the benefit of practicing that in a safer place, right? Either with you or with another guy or, you know, some, some setup, right? Where they can actually learn how to dribble and shoot. And then it's like, oh, okay, well, let's, let's go and try this, right? Something like that.

I don't know. But well, it's, it's like not unlike what you are doing with people, right? Because you're basically taking a person who has symptoms, something hurts, something doesn't work right. There's some symptoms are measurable markers of inflammation or this particular A1C number. And you're teaching them how to reduce the stress load on their body by their eating habits, their, the supplements that they're missing or not taking, or healthy habits. And so when you compare that to the role of, you know, stress and overwhelm in relationships, there's— we— you can't separate it. Like, there's a reason why 80% of autoimmune diagnoses are women. That's the manifestation in their health— a lot of self-silencing and not being able to speak up. And that has a really profound effect on how they're able to live their lives. And so getting people the adaptive experiences that they need to correct, whether it's inflammation of markers or inflammation in relationships, is— it's such rewarding, important work. Because again, why do you want to live forever if you don't have really rich, rewarding relationships?

That's right. And to your point, developing this skill set of creating great relationships and being able to nurture great relationships is one of the, the most, one of life's most important skill sets. And yet nobody's teaching it, right? It's just assumed that somehow it's going to happen.

You know, we're just on our own out here. Yeah. And it can be so confusing, right? So disheartening. And then with our propensity towards self-blame, we make sure that there's something wrong with us and we get lonelier and more withdrawn.

And that is such a hard— And a lot of people grew up in families where it was never modeled, right? So they never really saw it. They never really saw what a healthy family or relationship looked like. It was never modeled and it was never— they actually never participated in the same process that the parents were, right? It was never handed down to them, so to speak, right? So yeah, so God bless them all. God bless everybody listening to this. I mean, if you feel like this is like you're struggling with this, it's It's not your fault, right? It takes some coaching and it takes some, some practice, quite honestly, if you're going to play soccer.

So yeah, it does. And then there's nothing like the feeling of being able to join the game, feeling like you know what's going on, right? I'm not perfect. I can't guarantee that I'll score every time I'm passed the ball, but I know what to do with the ball when it gets passed to me.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And then from there, yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. So, well, congratulations, Sarah. It's a courageous life you're living. So I love it. I love what you're doing. I think you're really servicing humanity in a wonderful way. So thanks.

Thanks for coming on the show. Well, I really appreciate this conversation. I think there's a lot of— I was listening to a couple of your other episodes, and one of the questions you ask is, how good can we be? Yeah, I think that matters, particularly around the quality of our relationships and everyone. Can have 1 or 2, maybe 3 relationships where they really feel seen and known and pour a lot of the best of themselves into that. And then just kind of let some of the others go if that's where you're not being met with someone who wants the same thing. But it really, it really is what makes longevity worth it.

Yeah, I agree. 1,000%.

Beautiful.

Well, thank you again so much.

Thanks. How do we live young for a lifetime? How do we make 100 the new 30? The answers are out there, and we're bringing them to you every episode. Make sure you're subscribed. Check out more episodes right here and follow us on social media so you never miss a breakthrough. Thanks for listening.