WCI #431: How to Rise Above a Broken Healthcare System with Dr. Dimitrios Tsatiris

This is the White Coat Investor podcast.

Where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

This is White Coat Investor podcast number 431. As summer comes to a close and quarter four approaches, now is a great time to revisit your tax strategy. Are you sure you're not paying the IRS more than you should? Cerebral Tax Advisors, a white coat investor recommended firm, helps physicians nationwide reduce personal and business taxes using court tested IRS approved strategies. On average, their clients have seen a 453% return on investment in tax planning services. Their services are flat rate focusing on the client's return on investment. Alexis Galati, founder of Cerebral Tax Advisor, comes from a family of positions and has over two decades of experience in high level tax planning strategies and multi state tax preparation. Schedule a free consultation visit Cerebral Tax Advisors. All right, our quote of the day today comes from Dave Ramsey. Like him or hate him, here's what he says. Financial peace isn't the acquisition of stuff. It's learning to live on less than you make so you can give money back and have money to invest. You can't win until you do this. Good advice there. Thanks everybody out there for what you're doing. We're going to talk about doctors today. We're going to talk about doctors and a lot of the issues they're having out there, which are legion. There's a real problem in medicine. You know, it's called burnout, but there's a lot of factors that go into. It might be toxic work, it might be a little bit of mental illness among doctors, it might be financial stress. There's a lot that causes this and we're going to talk about today and some of the things you can do to reduce it because it is a huge financial risk in your life. You know what else is a financial risk in your life? Being an idiot about money. Okay, I do not want you to be dumb about money anymore. I want you to be brilliant with money. And you'd be surprised how high yield the first few things you learn about money can be. So we're going to do a financial crash course. This is live August 19th, 6pm Mountain, right? So it's 5pm Pacific, 8pm Eastern. We're not going to spend all evening doing this, but I prepared a presentation for you and we're going to stick around afterward answering questions. These questions that you've got out there about your finances, whatever the Questions are. We'll take them whether the basic questions or not. But the presentation is going to be getting you up to speed, hitting the high yield stuff, right? This is the crash course for your finances. This is what you ought to invite your friends and your family and that doctor in the lounge that you know needs this stuff. Invite them to this. It's going to be perfect for them. And there's just too many doctors out there stressed out about money, living paycheck to paycheck, not building any wealth, even with an attending physician income. You've just worked too hard not to be financially successful. So join me on August 19, 6pm Mountain time for a free financial crash course. You can sign up for that@whitecoatinvestor.com crashcourse okay, I've got a guest on the podcast today. Let's get into this interview. We're going to be talking about burnout, right? Big financial risk, can't buy insurance against it. Let's get Demetrios Satiris on the line. Our guest today on the White Coat Investor Podcast is Demetrios Satiris. Now, you may know Demetrios from speaking at WZ Icon. If you've been to a number of WC Icons, you may have attended his talk. How many have you spoken at now, Jim?

Believe it or not, it's been four WC Icons. I'm truly grateful for WC Icons.

I mean, I've spoken at more than that, but I don't know that anybody else has got more than four. That's a lot. So congratulations.

Well, I'm giving you a run for your money, Jim, huh?

Yeah, you are. You know, it's great to have you here on the podcast. I think this is your first time on the podcast, right?

It is, it is. And I'm truly grateful and honored to come on the podcast. And I thought we would talk about a timely topic, Burnout, because a large portion of physicians are suffering from it.

Yeah, it's a real problem. And you've become a bit of an expert in this. You know, you've given talks on this at the conference. You now have a book out. Tell us the title of the book.

Yeah, so it's about time I wrote a book on the topic. It's titled Physician Burnout. That's what the publisher wanted to title it. And, you know, I've been working with physicians. About 60% of my clinical practice is caring for physicians through psychiatry, through psychotherapy, through coaching. So I figured I would write about that topic and I wanted to publish academically. Because I wanted a publisher to look at the evidence that I provided them on the topic and to meet their threshold. So it was time to write a book on the topic.

You say that's what the publisher wanted. What did you want to call it?

I was going to pick something a little more edgy, but I'll leave that for the next book. How's that? All right.

Well, burnout is apparently an epidemic among physicians, right? When we look at these surveys that ask, you know, are you burned out? 55, 60, 65% of doctors say yes. And even if you only ask something like, is your burnout, you know, severely affecting your life? You still get numbers that are way too high, you know, sometimes in the 30% range, you know, and so it does seem to be a big problem. And yet there are burnout deniers out there, right? They're like, well, everybody has burnout. There's a club for that. It means Friday down at the bar. Nobody hates their job. That's why it's called work, because they gotta pay you to do it. So what is your take on burnout? What is going on? Is it unique to doctors? Is it more than, I just don't wanna work as much as I'm working? What is burnout? Why is it such an issue these days?

No. Great question. So, first of all, let's define burnout. It is a syndrome stemming primarily from work stressors. And it has three symptoms. You know, number one is feeling emotionally exhausted. You go on vacation, you come back, and one or two days back, you're already depleted. Number two is feeling detached. Feeling detached from your patients, feeling detached from your coworkers, having a negative attitude towards them. And number three is feeling a lack of purpose and meaning, feeling as if your work lacks any sense of accomplishment. Right? And it's a major problem in medicine mentioned. It affects the majority of physicians, and it's multifactorial. Number one, medicine is hard from an emotional standpoint. People don't come to us because they're happy, go lucky. They come to us because there's problems. And as physicians, we're tested to solve problem after problem, day after day, week after week, month after month. It's only a matter of time before that takes a toll on ourselves. But also, number two, life is challenging. You know, as physicians, we're not immune from catastrophe. We may be dealing with health problems, marital conflict, ailing par. So when you combine work and life, it gets overwhelming. But on top of that, it's worth noting that, you know, as physicians, we're not the best equipped from an emotional standpoint to navigate challenges. You know, we've dedicated our lives to master the skills, to develop the skills of practicing medicine, but we haven't spent adequate time to develop emotional awareness and mastery. You know, Jim, I can't tell you the number of doctors I've worked with who struggle with anxiety or burnout but cannot identify the signs and symptoms of anxiety and burnout within themselves. Or I can't tell you the number of doctors that I work with who just can't set basic boundaries for themselves because of emotional forces such as guilt. Right. And I don't blame doctors because the culture of medicine, it does not promote emotional awareness and mastery. It promotes stoicism, perfectionism, being self sacrifice, being a workaholic. So I don't blame doctors for not investing in that part of their lives. And did I mention the system, the healthcare system, which is fragmented and it is designed to deprive physicians of the autonomy and authority to practice medicine. So, you know, I see a lot of doctors in their late 30s and their 40s, you know, they played the game, you know, a certain way. Like they studied medicine, they became physicians, they took out a ton of student loans, they got married, have kids, and now they're feeling trapped because medicine did not turn out the way they had envisioned it to be. And they're dealing with an existential crisis. And that is not a good feeling. Right? So all those different factors contribute to the physician burnout pandemic.

Yeah. Now this is a financial podcast, right? And you know, in a lot of ways, burnout is your biggest financial risk, right? If the prevalence of this is 60%, even if it's only 30%, right. This is your ability to earn, right? It's like getting disabled. You can buy disability insurance, but you can't buy burnout insurance. So maybe the biggest risk to your, to your financial plan is actually physician burnout, keeping you from being able to earn 2 or 3 or 400 or $600,000 a year because you just can't do the work anymore. Not to mention so many of the techniques for dealing with burnout are, you know, costly or involve working less. There's an opportunity cost there, and so there's a lot of financial tie ins to burnout as well. I think people who have been to WC Icon recognize this, right? We got half the talks about finances, half the talks about wellness and burnout and that sort of a thing. And so there's a very close connection, I think, at the conference. But I think a lot of people don't connect these two things in their mind. What connection do you see between dealing with burnout and finances?

Yeah, you nailed it. I mean, if you're battling burnout, if you're feeling detached from work, if you're feeling emotionally exhausted, you're not performing at 100%. Maybe you're performing at 60%, 70, 80, but you're leaving money on the table because you're not firing in all cylinders. Number two, burnout comes at a risk to your overall physical and mental health. It's associated with a host of mental and physical health conditions. Depression, anxiety, insomnia. I can go on and on. And the issue is that those conditions are also a risk factor to your job performance and security. And number three, if you're battling burnout, if you're emotionally exhausted, if you're feeling detached from people and you bring that attitude home, that is not good for your marriage, that is not good for your family. And you're putting cracks in your own marriage, in your own relationship with loved ones. And any relationship can handle only so many cracks before it crumbles. And talk about that, you know, divorce and dissolution being a major threat to somebody's financial health. So considering the overall implications of burnout, it makes sense that it's the number one risk factor to physicians. Financial health.

Yeah, for sure. You know, the first thing I tell people who are feeling burned out is, why don't you cut back to full time? You know, doctors are working so much that the concept of working only 40 hours a week is completely foreign to so many of them. But I find that a surprising amount of burnout goes away if you just work one job at a time. Why do we get suckered into working so many hours?

Well, as physicians, Jim, we have certain traits. Medicine selects for and reinforces certain traits. In general, we tend to be altruistic, we tend to be idealistic, we tend to be hardworking, we tend to be perfectionists, we tend to be stoic, we tend to be obedient to fit in the culture of medicine. And these traits, medicine selects for them because I believe that they're intended to improve patient care. Like, you want your doctor to be hardworking and not like to make mistakes and, you know, be cool, calm, and collected under pressure. Right. So it makes sense that medicine selects for those different traits. But these traits, when taken to the extreme as they are in medicine, they come at a cost to our mental health. Right. So, for example, as physicians, we sacrifice having a strong work ethic with self sacrifice. So working 40 hours, it's emotionally challenging for us because it induces feelings of inadequacy, feeling guilty, like you're not keeping up with your peers. Right. Like if. If your colleagues work 60 hours and you work 40 hours, you can imagine how you may be perceived by your colleagues. Right.

Tell me about it. Right. I work six shifts a month.

Right.

So I can relate to that for sure. Yeah.

So I think, you know, when you're part of a culture that idealizes perfectionism and being a workaholic and self sacrifice, that's the outcome that we get.

Okay, so what's the healthier alternative to perfectionism? How do you stop being a perfectionist?

Well, I think first of all, it starts by recognizing that perfectionism comes at a cost to one's mental health. In psychiatry, we say that it's trans diagnostic. It is a risk factor for any mental health condition. Depression, anxiety, eating disorders, suicidal ideation, you name it, it's a huge risk factor for that. Number two, we need to recognize that medicine is not perfect. We project perfectionism in medicine, but medicine itself is not perfect. The medicines that we Prescribe don't work 100%. They come with side effects. Many of our treatments don't always work. So we need to substitute perfection, number one, with humility, to acknowledge that as human beings in medicine, we have a lot of areas for improvement, that we have our imperfections. And number two, I think we need to strive for maybe a healthier standard. Instead of being perfect, let's strive for something like excellence or being outstanding, where you work hard, you do your very best, but you also recognize that, you know what, we're not perfect as physicians. Our tools are not perfect when we try to help our patients. So why do we idealize perfectionism when it only hurts our mental health overall?

Yeah, you mentioned that medicine promotes stoicism. What's the problem with stoicism? I mean, it's usually considered a good thing, isn't it? I mean, what's wrong with stoicism?

Sure, it comes from the ancient Greek xeno obsidian. So of course it's a good thing. Right. Coming from the Greeks, myself being one, you know, but so stoicism, like any school of thought, be it a religion, be it a philosophy, there's a lot of variation. Right. But at the roots of stoicism, going back to ancient Greece, what stoicism does is it puts reason above everything else. It puts it on a pedestal. And according to the early stoics, they looked at emotions as irrational, as something that can't be moderated. So according to the Early Stoics quote, the ideal agent has no emotions because they're just a hindrance to reason. And stoicism has a lot of valuable pragmatic teachings. For example, to focus on your sphere of control, to take a rational approach to life's problems, and not to want for things. Because according to the stoics, when you want for something, that's a recipe for suffering. Because. Because you either suffer because you don't have that something, or when you have it, you're afraid of losing it, right? So when you want, when you desire, it's a recipe for suffering. But the problem with stoicism is that it fails to appreciate the value of emotional awareness and mastery, right? So emotions are valuable. They come with valuable data. You meet somebody, you got a gut feeling about them. It can be hard to, like, put that into words, but your gut is telling you a lot of valuable information about a person or a situation. You know, when we get anxious, it's a call to action, right? To avoid consequences. When we get angry, it's a sign that, hey, there's been an injustice here. Somebody took advantage of you. When we feel envy, it's a sign that, like, hey, we want our life to move in a certain direction. So to ignore one's emotions is to put yourself at a disadvantage. Stoicism has other shortcomings as well, which I talked about at WCI Con 24. I'll mention one more, is that it overemphasizes the importance of reason. Right? Like, you know, reason comes with limitations. You know, I've worked with attendings, two attendings, same case, and they're disagreeing on how to handle a case, how to approach a case, because there's limits to reason. And there comes times in medicine where we have to go with our gut feelings, educated geshes, or intuition. And our intuition based off of the number of people that we worked with in our past, Right? So I think stoicism idealizes reason, and it fails to a recognize its limitations, but also it fails to appreciate the importance of emotional awareness and mastery.

All right, well, I think we somewhat defined the problem here, right? We're picking all these type A people, we're putting them into a hard career, and we're making them do it, you know, one and a half times as much as anybody else works. No surprise there's lots of burnout. And especially now that people are losing control over their workplace, too. Now, something like 77% of docs are employees. It's not quite that high among the dentists, but it Is that high among physicians? So let's talk about solutions. Right? I mean, the obvious one, work less. Right. And it's pretty darn effective. It's a good solution if you can afford to work less. It usually reduces burnout significantly. It's often not enough, though. What are other things that people can do to reduce their burnout?

You nailed it. It's not always enough. There are doctors who cut back from like 1.0 to 0.8 or 0.6, and they're still battling burnout. Right. So I think number one is identifying the problem. You know, there are doctors who battle burnout who don't even know that they're burned out. And number two, accepting the fact that you need to get some help about it. Right. You can't solve this by yourself. You know, it's okay to seek help, to talk to a colleague, to talk to a mentor, to talk to a coach, to talk to a therapist. Because when we suppress our thoughts and feelings and we try to solve something by ourselves, thought suppression leads to an exacerbation of that thought and feeling that you're trying to avoid. And it comes with a cognitive load. It's like the feeling and the emotion just kind of festers and grows when you try to ignore it. So there's something very therapeutic about talking about it and releasing it and acknowledging that there's a problem. So, again, doctors, I know we're very reluctant to seek professional help. The majority of doctors are, but boy, are there a lot of benefits to that. As somebody who's worked with hundreds of doctors in my career, I can attest to the power and the benefit of working with a professional to help you through the webs of burnout. But for what can people do individually? I like to look at things comprehensively from a biopsychosocial model. Right. So biologically, making sure that we're engaging in healthy coping strategies. Like only 50% of doctors exercise, I'm surprised it's only 50%. When we preach that to all our patients, it should be at 90%. Right. Cutting back on things that are unhealthy. Alcohol. A lot of doctors drink. Surveys show that. And I bet you those surveys minimize the problem.

What do you mean? Everyone's always honest about their alcohol use.

Right?

Everyone's had two drinks.

Exactly. Two with dinner than two with supper. That's what it is.

And they don't say exactly how big the drinks are.

Right? Right.

10 foot tall drinks.

Yeah. Yeah. From a psychological standpoint, we have to engage in mental health exercises because if you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint. The job of your brain is not to make you happy. The job of the brain is to help you survive. I mean, think about what the environment was like for our ancestors. I don't know, 20,000 years ago. It was a very scary place where we could fall victim to predators like lions and cheetahs and whatnot, right? So to survive that kind of an environment, two things have to happen. Number one, you need to have anxiety. You need to look at worst case scenario. You need to have a lot of what ifs. Like what if there's a line behind that bush? What if there's a crocodile lurking under the water, right? But number two, you need to be dissatisfied. Because if you're dissatisfied, you're more likely to go hunting for more. Because satisfaction does not promote action, whereas dissatisfaction does, right? So because of that, we have to be engaging in exercises to override our evolutionary tendencies. So what I do every morning is I practice gratitude. You know, I take one minute before I leave my house and I take a moment to feel grateful for something that I have in my life. It might be my kids, my wife, my health, whatever, and all the things that I've been spared, just one minute a day. And it sounds really cheesy and hokey pokey, but it makes a difference, you know? And there's different types of meditation. There's mindfulness, there's transit, there's so many different types. But it's important for doctors to be working on their psychology, on how to look at the world around them. And then finally, socially connection. As doctors, we tend to isolate when we have a problem. We say that we're fine and we isolate. And this only exacerbates the problem, right? So to connect, to talk about your problems with somebody else, to spend time with loved ones, that is an antidote to burnout. So again, I like to look at things biopsychosocially and those are some interventions along that spectrum.

So let's go through the list here. We talked about working less, we talked about exercising, and I'm a big fan of exercising. When I'm feeling depressed, I go for a run. And most of the time it helps. Yeah, we talked about spending some time, gratitude, meditation, prayer, whatever. We talked about getting social connections, being connected. Those are certainly some great burnout techniques. What else is there? I mean, a fair amount of burnout is probably related to the workplace, right? I mean, it's. You put a bunch of docs into a toxic workplace and they all get burned out, right? It's not necessarily an issue with the individual, doc. It's a toxic workplace. What can we do to help our workplace be better and promote more wellness?

Yeah. So you're nailing it. The system is the primary driver to physician burnout. Right. There are countless systemic factors that contribute to burnout. And the reality is that we're hoping for the system to change. Boy, are we going to be waiting forever. Because there's no evidence, in my opinion, that the system is going to become more compassionate, more humane, and more physician friendly. But what can we do? Support each other, check in on each other. Right. Have camaraderie, collaborate instead of compete against one another. You know, as doctors, we're not the best at supporting one another because we've competed against one another during our medical training to get into the residency of our choice or to get the job of our choice. Right. The other thing is promoting psychological safety. You know, as human beings, you know, we need to feel safe, to express ourselves, our thoughts and our feelings. And medicine does not promote psychological safety. You know, we suppress, we repress emotions and we isolate ourselves. So I think to, you know, check in with your colleagues, that's important, to be vulnerable, to be honest, and to give them the time and the space to express themselves. I think it's also important that we support each other work wise. You know, the majority of doctors take less than three weeks of vacation and they even work during vacation. And I think it's important that as doctors, we support one another by doing concrete things like, hey, let me cover for you when you go on vacation. And then, you know what, when I go on vacation, you cover for me. So when we're on vacation, we're actually on vacation and not doing refills or solving patient problems on vacation. Because you might be spending 15 minutes a day solving a patient problem, but actually you're spending two hours stressing about that patient and worrying about it and thinking if you did the right thing. Right. Which takes you away from the vacation. Right. So doing concrete things to support and take care of one another. And then one more thing that we can do. Let me add this too. Finding meaning and purpose in our lives. You know, there's a study that shows that the lack of meaning and purpose at work is a greater risk factor for burnout than the hours of work that somebody does. Because you can work 20 hours a week, but if it doesn't have meaning and purpose, you're still going to be burned out. But you can work 60 hours a week. But if the work is Meaningful and purposeful and. And it's a calling for you. You're not going to burn out. You know, burnout is more than just hours worked. Burnout is also about the lack of meaning, the lack of purpose, the lack of fulfillment, the lack of autonomy. Right. And we need to find ways to reclaim that as physicians, both within medicine, but also in our daily lives.

All right, now is the part of the podcast when I push back on you a little bit. Right. It feels like there's this, you know, burnout industrial complex out there, right. These people who profit from burnout, they sell burnout courses, they sell burnout books, they do burnout coaching.

Right.

And they're constantly reminding us, hey, most docs are burned out. Aren't you burned out, too? What role is there for this burnout coaching? Burnout, you know, specialists in it. Is there a problem that there are so many physicians out there being burnout coaches?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let me talk about myself personally, and I'll answer your question. So, you know, I've been a psychiatrist for a dozen years in attending, and, you know, I provide care to physicians, you know, psychiatric care, psychotherapy care. And the practice just grew to the point that, you know, I've been seeing more and more physicians because it's meaningful to me. It adds meaning and purpose to my life treating physicians, because I get it, and I see the blind spots in physicians as far as the difficulties with setting boundaries, difficulties with identifying feelings, difficulties with expressing feelings. Right. And the toll that it comes on one's mental health. If you're going to work with somebody, they better have experience and expertise, because anybody can call themselves a coach. Like, you want to work with somebody who knows what they're doing. At the very least, have some kind of. Of certification, some kind of experience having worked with doctors. Right. Because you work with the wrong person, you'll get no benefit. And actually harm can happen. Right. The other thing that I want to add is that I believe there's a huge mental health stigma. And as physicians, we are reluctant to see a psychotherapist because of the stigma against mental health. You know, mental health is seen as a weakness. We're afraid that there might be repercussions to our career. But coaching seems like more in. Right. It's like a back door to mental health. It's like, I'm not depressed, I'm not anxious. I got a little burnout from work. Right. So what I do in my personal life is I meet people where they're at. I mean, I can see the problem from a mile away, because I've done this a dozen years. But if they want to say that they're burned out, okay, we'll stay on the shallow waters with burnout. And then when they're ready to go into deeper waters with me, physicians, then I go to deeper waters with them. So I meet people where they're at. But yeah, I think that's what's happening. It's that because physicians are reluctant to seek care for their mental health and there's that stigma, they seek coaching as kind of a backdoor to mental health treatment.

Now the correlation between depression and burnout is elevated. It's not insignificant. Is burnout just depression? Is it separate from depression or is this just another one of those depressive symptoms that people get?

No, they're different. So burnout tends to be more occupational. That's the context. More occupational related. Typically with burnout, when you leave work, you feel better, like when you're on vacation. But then when you return to work from vacation, Ben, the symptoms are right back. Whereas depression tends to be more pervasive. If you're depressed, you go on vacation, you're still feeling depressed, or if you're at home, you're feeling depressed at home or you're feeling down on the weekends. Right. But again, burnout is the number one risk factor for depression amongst physicians. And that makes sense because we've dedicated a major portion of our lives to this calling. And when the calling doesn't pan out the way that you think it was going to, and you took out a quarter of a million dollars to for this call, and you can appreciate how that leads to an existential crisis. But I think doctors feel safer saying that they're battling burnout versus saying that, you know what, I'm actually depressed because depression is seen as weakness. Depression is seen as a personal flaw, and it has a negative connotation. Does depression the same thing with anxiety? You know, whereas burnout implies that I'm working so hard at work and there's a problem at work, and there are many problems at work, but it's more like work related and it makes it less stigmatizing to acknowledge.

All right. Demetrios Satiris, author of Physician Burnout how to Rise Above a Broken Healthcare System. As a practicing clinician, thanks for what you're doing in your work at WC Icon, your work with doctors and in your daily work with non doctors. It sounds like the docs are becoming a bigger part of your practice, though. Every.

Yeah, they have found me and they're coming to me again. It's an honor and a privilege to be working with people are in our profession. And again, Jim, thank you for everything that you do for physicians out there to help them with their mental, with their financial health because that is essential to a physician's overall well being.

Awesome. Well, thank you for being on the podcast. All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Love that guy, right? He's doing great work helping docs out. Recognize if you're feeling burnout, whether you got a little depression with it or not, there is help out there and addressing it now, figuring out how to deal with it now, whether it involves job changes or not is worthwhile. Why suffer? It's like I tell patients all the time in the emergency department, you don't heal faster because you're in pain. Right. To get you out of pain. And there's a lot of psychological pain involved with burnout and you don't need it in your life. Let's get it out of your life. That can be done. As summer comes to a close and quarter four approaches, now is a great time to revisit your tax strategy. Are you sure you're not paying the IRS more than you should? Cerebral Tax Advisors, the white coat investor recommended firm helps physicians nationwide reduce personal and business taxes using court tested IRS approved strategies. On average, their clients have seen a 453% return on investment in tax planning services. Their services are flat rate, focusing on the client's return on investment. Alexis Galati, the founder of Cerebral Tax Advisors comes from a family of physicians and has over two decades of experience in high level tax planning strategies. Multi state tax preparation schedule a free consultation called cerebraltaxadvisors.com don't forget about our financial crash course. Right, we're going to talk about some awesome stuff in this crash course. We're going to talk about how you can be debt free in five years of graduating from residency and well on your way to becoming a multimillionaire. We're talking about figuring out what to do next with your money, investing with confidence, reducing your tax bill, protecting your wealth through insurance, estate planning and asset protection. And did I mention it's available at my favorite price? It's totally free to you. Sign up whitecoatinvestor.com crashcourse even if you can't make it live, we'll send you the replay. But if you attend live, we're going to bribe you, right? There's not only a bonus download a financial plan template that serves as your personal roadmap to building wealth, but we're going to give away five free enrollments in our flagship Fire your financial Advisor course, right? That's an $800 value to the live attendees, so sign up for that whitecoatinvestor.com crashcourse thanks for putting your reviews the podcast up. It does make a difference. A recent one said. Grateful I can't recommend the podcast and other WCI resources more highly. I'm amazed at what I've learned from the podcast, blogs and books. I've transformed from financially illiterate to actually identifying mistakes financial advisors were making with family. I owe a tremendous degree of my financial success to Dr. Dali, and I'm very grateful for everything he's done. He truly is helping high income professionals achieve financial independence. Five stars from iReview. So thank you for that great review. Not just for your kind words, they do buoy me up. But mostly because these reviews help people find this podcast and that helps us to help them. So keep your head up, your shoulders back. You've got this. We're here to help. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast.

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