Democracy in Digital Fashion with Michaela Larosse – Step into the Metaverse podcast: EP18

Good day everyone and welcome to the Step into the Metaverse podcast. My name is Marc Van Rijmenam and I'm also known as the Digital Speaker. I'm a future tech strategist and I think about how emerging technologies change organizations and society. This podcast is part of my new book called Step into the how the Immersive Internet Will Unlock a Trillion Dollar Social Economy. The book is available as an ebook, hard copy and audiobook. As part of this book, I did nearly 100 in depth interviews with the stakeholders involved in creating the open Metaverse, the investors, the developers, the artists, the collectors, etc. And I've turned a selection of these interviews into this podcast as I think that these conversations are too valuable to leave them on my computer. In this interview, I interviewed Mikaela Laros. Mikaela is a founding member of the Fabricant team and head of Content and Strategy. The Fabricant is a digital fashion house creating unique fashion items for the Metaverse. She works at the collision of fashion and tech, communicating the value of Web3 to build a more sustainable, equitable and democratic creative future. During the interview, we discussed digital fashion, what it is, the role it will play in the Metaverse, and how the Fabricant is embracing the future in a unique way. Enjoy the conversation.

Maybe you can start with telling me a bit about your background and how you guys are related to the Metaverse.

Well, for myself, just to give you a little overview, I'm the head of Content and Strategy for the Fabricant, which means I create a brand narrative, storytelling, the voice of the company, if you like, and have been been part of the fabricant since day one, since it was founded in 2018. So I really had been able to build the story of digital fashion in general and seen it evolve. And I would say in the past 18 months it's evolved so rapidly in tandem with the pandemic, of course. But it's very interesting that the conversations that I'm having now, compared to the conversations that I was having originally, which were very much about sustainability, they're radically different. So it's been a really rapid, exciting evolution, should we say, around the conversations of what digital fashion is and what digital assets mean for our wider world.

Very good. Yeah, I can imagine that it must have been, especially of course, since Mark Zuckerberg changed it into Meta. That sort of kick started the entire understanding of the world of what Metaverse is actually. So I can imagine that must have been an important moment for you guys.

It's interesting because obviously we are one of many boutique brand, startups that have been in this space for quite some time. We dropped the first ever digital fashion NFT back in 2019, which is what gave us global prominence. That's how we became known. Digital fashion was very new at that point. It was quite a radical idea for the fashion industry and many industries. And then when we dropped the NFT of our dress, Iridescence, which sold for 54 ETH in 2019. In 2019, 54 ETH was worth $9,500 equivalent. Now, 54 ETH, I believe, is somewhere at the $250,000 mark. So our buyer made the world an incredibly good investment, but at the time, people just didn't get it. They were like, why is this the thing? And, you know, so we've been talking and talking and talking about this and then obviously the concept of the metaverse is grown around us. So whilst we're part of this, we all talk to each other in digital fashion. Our world is quite small. We all collaborate together and we all know each other. It's very interesting that we've all been talking about it for quite some time, but Facebook stepping into the space and sort of declaring ownership, if you like, sort of land growth, whilst we're all a little bit like, oh, my God, in terms of storytelling and the comprehension of the average person, it's been quite helpful. Not that we ever want to live in a Facebook metaverse for reasons it's not our preferred vision. But credit where credit's due, there is a comprehension now where there wasn't when I was talking to people, let's put it that way.

Yeah. That's the one thing that he did. Right. But I think we are on the same page that we don't want to live in a metaverse. I think that would be horrible.

Yeah. I mean, all brands are going to end up in the metaverse in some way. That's the reality. And I guess it's inevitable that Web2 players, social media platforms, who have had the world on their terms and the Internet on their terms up to date, they're going to pivot into this space because the immersive Internet is where things are going. So we always understood that it would happen, but it was quite a big moment with so much intention. Even though we kind of knew it was going to happen, it still sort of almost made us stop in our tracks a little bit.

I can imagine. So there's a question I ask everyone. What is the metaverse according to you?

The metaverse, according to me, is a universe of persistent virtual spaces in which we will have a digital layer of our lives in which we'll interact, transact, and experience. It's a place to build new economies for us. We're very much involved in the crypto blockchain space. Our work is part of an ecosystem of fashion, crypto, blockchain gaming. So we have to keep tabs on quite a lot of different spaces, but they all coalesce in the metaverse. So for us, there's an idea that we very much believe in about democratization and resistance of these maybe established norms of systems and behaviors, which now, with the digital realm and blockchain and what we want to do with digital fashion, the metaverse gives us a much bigger template in which to iterate on. So for us, it's incredibly exciting. And I think there's a reason why fashion is very much leading the forefront of digital assets. I think it's because the immediate need for most people in the metaverse will be to have a digital twin in the form of an avatar, to conduct all these things that I've talked about, these interactions, these moments where you'll immerse yourself in environments. And all of these avatars right now are mostly naked. And everybody would like to. Fashion's always been the front line of our identity, and our avatars are the way that we're going to express ourselves in these environments. So there's a need for garments that tell our stories in some way, that present us in a way in which resonates in these environments, where it's literally the only way that you can get an idea about who someone is or what they are or what they believe in. Because, of course, digital garments can be coded with so much information. You know, you can gather data and display it on the garment. You can connect it to your moods and feelings. You can scroll dialog. So there's lots of really exciting creative possibilities that allow you to communicate who you are in the metaverse, which is why digital garments as a digital asset are very much leading this space.

Yeah, it's very interesting that you say this, because I'm currently having my digital human created of myself. I have an avatar, but that's a pretty basic version. So I wanted to create the next level. And I also, at some point, had to look at now, what kind of clothes am I going to dress myself in? And I was. I was looking at the reallusion platform because it's just sort of a trial at this moment. But then you get just a standard, maybe like jeans or shirts, you know, whatever. It's very standard. But actually what you say is right. You can do whatever you want with that. And you can have the clothes change on your mood, based on your mood and based on the topic that you're talking about. That's actually really exciting. There might be something later on as an opportunity maybe to do something together down the road. Because I am the digital speaker. I live and breathe in the digital space myself. And I have an avatar and that needs to be dressed. So who knows, maybe something to explore at some point in time.

Absolutely. Mark, please do stay in touch. I mean, the way that we talk about our garments, people, because they're used to the idea historically, the concept of fashion has always been about something that we have an intimate physical relationship with, obviously, because we wear garments against our skin. So we have to convey what the meaning of digital garments are. You know, fashion has always been an emotional experience. So you have to make this mindset shift away from your garments being a very practical covering or something that you're physically wearing to being something that you very much express your identity with. You get the same rush from seeing yourself in a digital garment as you do in a physical garment. Because emotions are connected to feelings. They don't require physicality to feel emotions. So when we talk about our garments, we're very much described in terms of identity exploration. Because as you say, in the digital space, we can be anybody we want to be. We can change genders and identities. It's interesting. We did some beta testing for our new platform and we gave people lots of different bodies to try. And the first thing everybody did was switch gender. It was really was like, oh, I'm going to just see what it feels like to be a man or a woman. So you have this possibility. You can think, you know what, maybe I'll just explore parts of my identity that I wouldn't in physical life and just see how this feels. What are these wilder parts that I keep hidden about myself that I can play with here? So there's lots of possibilities for being able to experiment and explore with who you are. A space that feels a fun, because it is really fun, but it's exciting and it's inclusive, you know, it's. It's a safe space to think. Actually, I'm the kind of person that, who in real life wears very practical shoes, but I might try a pair of 10 inch digital stilettos and just strut around in those, you know, and just see how that feels, you know, so you very much get this feeling of trying on identity. So that's the fun part of digital fashion.

I had not thought about that perspective, that you can go a lot further than wearing a Bellagio jacket or a Gucci bag or whatsoever. You actually can take it five levels up and take a different approach to it.

And it's worth noting that we will all have multiple selves because we can, you know, we'll be able to switch Personas, we might have multiple avatars, we'll certainly have meta wardrobes full of digital garments, which, you know, for an interaction like this, you might well choose a much more sober, appropriate garment. And then if you went to a virtual hangout and went to a virtual concert, you might just think, I want to wow the crowd in my, I don't know, liquid metal puffer jacket or whatever, you know, so there's, there's lots of possibilities and we don't have to stick to one identity. You can switch it up, of course.

Yeah. And so what are some of the key characteristics that you would say are of digital fashion?

The sort of ideas, certainly in terms of what we talk about, philosophically speaking, there are ideas related to digital fashion that we all believe in. So the obvious one is sustainability. You'll see lots of digital fashion players talk about it because it's quite a strong facet of its belief system that we just don't need to keep creating physical stuff. There's enough physical stuff on the planet. And if you're interacting via a screen, you don't need to create a physical garment, you don't need to drag resources out the planet. You know, your digital garments are never going to end up in landfill. And you can play and you can explore something that's very dear to the fabricants heart in terms of what the fashion space can be. Because we were the first ever digital fashion house, we a had to communicate what our company is and was, but also create an entire industry for us to exist in, because it just didn't exist. So we've had to do this talking about ourselves and then inventing the world around us. That needed to happen. And for us particularly, I would say digital fashion, it's a new fashion industry that's far more democratic and equitable. So historically, in terms of the way that brands behaved, you would have the loan auto, the creative director at the head of the brand, and then the brand dictates this definitive collection and it's your job as a consumer to consume it. And that's all there is. Whereas in digital fashion, it's very collaborative. We have always given away our patterns for free to our audience. And we'll do our iteration of the garment, say this is the fabricant piece, but show us what you've got, and then throw open our patterns to the world. Sort of 3D creators, which in traditional fashion is super secretive and transparency is an absolute. No, no. And we just asked them to come back to us with their version and we get hundreds of responses on the same pattern that are all completely different. And it's really exciting. There is no definitive collection. So this idea of the democratization of fashion creation and what's possible when you're more open and come from a sort of abundance mindset is very much part of the digital fashion world that we believe in. And this collaborative mindset is something you'll probably hear from a lot of digital fashion companies. And also the idea of equitability, you know, because digital assets, you know, you can become a digital fashion creator if you've got a WI FI connection and a piece of hardware. And I realize that's still a privileged position for lots of people on the planet, but it's way, way, way more accessible than the historic trajectory of having to go to Paris, work in an atelier, work your way up, maybe, maybe if you're incredibly lucky and it's such a small number of people that make it to creative director level, it's more likely that you'll be a minion for quite some time. That was a possibility. That was a micro, micro, micro amount of people. Whereas in digital fashion, anybody has the capacity in the metaverse to iterate their own brand. And the super exciting thing about the metaverse space is the metaverse native brands will likely be some kids somewhere on the planet who maybe doesn't even realize right now that they're going to become a digital fashion creator. And that will become the native digital fashion brands because they have the means to do it through the digital world. So Metaverse Brands was probably going to be some 14 year old with an aesthetic that they like that catches fire and goes viral. You only have to look at the behavior of young people on TikTok to see how great they are at using the digital world on their own terms. So I think we're very, I guess, recognized as an OG brand in the space. So we certainly have a lead, but we very much believe in elevating everybody to become a creator, which again, is not something that traditional fashion has ever thought about. It's very much an exclusivity mindset.

Yeah, it's not so much, you know, not wanting to share the pie because it doesn't matter because the pie is getting bigger anyway, you know, you can tell what I mean. So there's infinite possibilities in the metaverse. So it doesn't really matter if there are 1, 10 or 100 competitors for you guys. I can imagine.

Yeah. And the audience will choose their preferred esthetic, of course, but the big part of it is the audience also gets to monetize. They get to trade and collect garments. So the idea that you're also part of the fashion economy is a new idea. Even as a user, you can participate certainly with the blockchain gaming environments. We've just created our new platform, by the way, called the Fabricant Studio, which is why I'm talking about the collaborative part. We did a beta test in September and it allows anybody to create their own Digital Fashion NFTs. So the way that it's working is recruit digital fashion creators that we're fans of and brands and they create 3D silhouettes of their garments that they drop into the environment as blanks. I'll send you a video that explains this. But they drop them into the environment as blank pieces. Then we've got lots of other creatives that have created only digital only fabrics. So the user goes into the environment, they select their silhouette, their preferred garment, they select their fabric and then they can combine them and they create unique one of one limited edition digital fashion NFTs. And then each person in the process, so the person that dropped the garment, the person that dropped the fabric, and the person that minted it, they all get an equal share of the royalties. So it's about creating an equitable industry in which all participants benefit from a virtuous circle of creation. So it incentivizes everybody to participate. So it's quite a radical sort of use case business model. But we're really excited about it. And our next season is in December, so it's really cool. And we've had to scale up. We did a closed beta of 50 users just to journal some people that we trusted to see if the co creation process worked, which it did. And our next season in mid December, coming very soon, keeping everything cross for the tech is 15,000 users. So we've scaled up. So that's so cool, it's really exciting. But all these ideas, all these different things that I'm talking about, it's just new way of thinking about fashion from a position of democracy, equitability, resistance to institutional thinking, you know, really pushing against these toxic ideas of what fashion is and away from exclusivity, that fashion can only belong to certain people. It's like, no, it belongs to us all and we should all be able to monetize and self expression is something that everybody can participate in. So yeah, that's us where we come from.

Yeah, really cool how you really trying to democratize this also with the new platform. That's very nice to hear. So if we look at, you know, sort of the merging of the physical and the digital, how can brands leverage that to create new kinds of interactive experiences? Looking from the perspective of fashion brands.

In this case, yeah, I think they can only begin to experiment in iterate. I guess the thing about the studio is we've created a platform where it's very easy for brands to step into, drop some garments and begin this process of participating in the metaverse economy. And we, you know, we have to talk to them about what the environment is, what the culture is. I'm sure if you've been in the crypto blockchain space, you'll see it's got its very own established language, rules, culture. So you can't just come blundering in and expect everything to be on your terms because that's the way that it's been in the physical space. This is a new environment that begins that brands have to be willing to participate on the terms of the environment, willing to maybe relinquish control somewhat. You know, it's very interesting that in the digital space, it's the users that say what the value of the brand is. You know, they dictate what they're willing to pay for a digital asset, not the brand itself. And it's quite difficult for brands to let go of that idea that they set the terms of the space. This is what our brand value is, because we say it is. So there's quite a big transition in mindset that's required. And the only way to do it, I guess, is to look at the space. The number one thing is community. They have to build a community. I'd say of all the behaviors that's most frequently that I see that inevitably ends in things not going very well for brands is they'll put a digital asset out there, an nft, and they just expect people to buy it because it's them. And they haven't put any energy into creating their audience digitally. They haven't engaged with people in the crypto blockchain space. They haven't started building this audience and talking to them on their terms. And so they will create an NFT because they've heard that they're meant to. And yet they haven't put the sort of background work into making sure there's an audience to buy it, who's interested in their stories. Storytelling and narrative are as important in this space as the asset itself. It's about the ideas behind it. If you look at crypto punks or bored apes, there's a lot of storytelling, there's a lot of a belief system, there's an idea of community and that we all belong. So that's what brands need to come with a different perspective and really observe the behaviors of the space before they just jump in and presume it's all going to go brilliantly because they've got a label, because there's just a bit more time and energy required to engage the audience first.

Yeah. What do you think of the possibilities of like mass production of fashion items? So let's say Nike, they produce their famous Nike Air Max and just have 100,000 out of their NFTs assets that you can own and transfer simply because people like the Nike Air Max in digital form. Do you see that there's space for that as well, or does every item have to be unique?

I don't see why not. You know, obviously uniqueness conveys a sort of rarity and specialness on things. So again, like in the physical world, things would maybe unique traits are more valued in this space. And if there's hundreds of thousands of pairs of digital trainers, I don't think it's problematic. Certainly in our belief system, we'd like to see brands transition away from creating physical inventory and put more energy into creating digital goods. And they have to see the revenue streams for that. Right. For them to be able to transition that. So if that's what they need to do in order to make that happen, then I think it's a good thing. But inevitably, if there's, you know, if something's everywhere, just like in regular life, it probably isn't going to have that much value monetarily. But it might just be a brand visibility thing that gives them a position.

Which avatars, type of avatar do you think will have the most prospect? You know, like the pixelated avatars, you know, the more ready player me avatars or the hyper realistic digital human, because that's also related to what kind of fashion you use.

Yeah, it's difficult to know. It's interesting because we've had to. We've created utilities. So our garments are meant to be worn. All our garments have utility in virtual spaces. So when you see the NFT minted on our Platform. It's very much a fabricant visual, which is digital fashion luxury. It's a really beautiful iteration. I'll send you the visuals. But when we transitioned our garments into the sandbox, for example, which is a blockchain based game where we have utility, they become voxelized. So these 3D pixelated garments, and it was actually really fun to see them transition. So all these environments have got their own aesthetic and the idea of interoperability. So garments being able to transition through this world is the key thing for digital assets that everybody's finding difficult because each of these spaces have their own ip. We have to negotiate with every single virtual environment that our garments need to appear in. Right now, it's a bit of a process. You have to talk to all the partnerships, teams with every single environment. So interoperability and unlocking that for digital assets is incredibly important. But right now it's very labor intensive.

Yeah, I can imagine. That's a final question. What's the future of digital fashion?

I wish I could tell you everybody. This space moves so fast. All of these things that I'm talking about, democratization, equitability, these are long term strategies. They're not going to turn around overnight. So we need to focus on getting that right, the interoperability that I've mentioned and really building the idea of what a new industry is and just getting people into the mindset of what fashion can be when it's not physical. So, you know, within that process, for sure it will evolve because everything evolves really quickly in this space. Where that goes right Now, I'm not 100% sure.

Thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Mark. Lovely to talk to you.

Thank you.

Have a good day.

Bye. Bye.

And that wraps up the conversation with mackayla Laros. If there's one thing that stands out for me from the conversation, that is how important digital fashion will be in the metaverse and that we are only at the start of this new industry. Digital fashion has tremendous potential, which is why in my new book, Step into the Metaverse, I discuss it in depth. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you will be notified when any of the other interviews will become available. Thank you and see you in the metaverse.