Experiencing the Real and the Digital with Christiaan Eisberg - Step into the Metaverse Podcast: EP06

Good day everyone and welcome to the Step into the Metaverse podcast. My name is Marc Verream and I'm also known as the Digital Speaker. I am a future tech strategist and I think about how emerging technologies change organizations and society. This podcast is part of my new book called Step into the how the Immersive Internet Will Unlock a Trillion Dollar Social Economy. The book is available as an ebook, hard copy and audiobook. As part of this book I did nearly 100 in depth interviews with the stakeholders involved in creating the open Metaverse, the investors, the developers, the artists, the collectors, etc. And I've turned a selection of these interviews into this podcast as I think that these conversations are too valuable to leave them on my computer. In this interview I interviewed Christian Eisberg. Christian is a Metaverse explorer and the founder of Straight Fire. He has a 20 year background in Fortune 500 companies and startups in heavy industries and consumer brands in the west and the east and he uses that knowledge to create the NFT 2.0 ecosystem. We had a fascinating conversation about all the things NFTs, the rise of iCommerce, how brands can build loyalty within the Metaverse, and the issue of IP and copyrights with NFTs. Enjoy the conversation.

So I'm the co founder of a company called Straight Fire and Straight Fire is an NFT social DAPP that we are building at the moment, which will go live at the end of the year, early January. Basically what it is, it's a DAPP that I guess for the first time allows you or enables users to view all your NFTs in one single place. So irrespective of what blockchain they were minted on, and from there you can manage and share all your NFT stories with the world through existing social media channels. So a bit like Snapchat and TikTok, we're using existing filters, AR lenses, you can add music to your NFT stories and with one click on the button you can share it to all your social media channels in one go. Nice. In the further release there will be an in depth marketplace. Not the marketplaces as you have around like on OpenSea, because let's face it, with the amount of money they've raised, there's no way of us competing with them. But we'll probably get to that point a little bit later on in conversation as well is that that marketplace is only about selling NFTs that consist of the filters that you can use within the dapp, the AR lenses that you can use, the Music snippets that you can use any 3D objects or skins that you can use in order to pimp up your NFT stories. So it's something that really kind of caters to the DAPP itself. And then finally with one click on the button, you can put your own profile that contains your NFT collections and your NFT stories, you can put it public within the dapp. And that's the first moment when the DAPP becomes a destination instead of just a tool to communicate with the world. But this is what I'm doing.

Wow, very interesting. So I look at the website, so you really start combining everything what is distributed so it's decentralized, but it's also distributed into one central location as a show off. Look, I own all these NFTs across all these platforms.

Yeah. So I guess what we're building is we're building a piece of infrastructure that at the moment I think is missing to connect that little niche NFT market that is kind of like a fad and connected with mass communication tools that everybody already uses and knows and also to develop a gap or maybe let's call it an app that people recognize. So it has a simplicity of, I would say TikTok. While it connects the decentralized world that is quite mysterious for a lot of people and difficult to understand through the world that everybody already knows in the digital environment.

Yeah, nice. Very, very interesting. So, and then of course brings me to the topic we're talking about the metaverse, because your NFTs, as a question we'll come to in a bit is I think an important aspect of the, of the metaverse. But before we, before we get to that, what is the metaverse according to you?

Yeah. So I've written it down and when we're using it as, as our definition of the metaverse. So I will read it to you. So the, the metaphors is continuously changing, decentralized and creative driven ecosystem without physical and space time limitations, which I think is very important. Where humanity and technology coexist in a balanced symbiotic relationship, enabling humanity to experience the real and the digital. That's quite a mouthful. And let's break it down. Right, so we say it's continuously changing. I guess that is probably what you'll find when you talk to people over a period of time. Is that before Facebook announced we're going to change to meta, the world was slightly different. Right. So I think this is a topic that is changing all the time. I think for me it's essential that it's decentralized and that maybe we talk about it later. That brings the Facebook conversation and the decentralization point of view. I think that's an interesting dynamic and what we truly believe in, but that's also we're biased because we are creators ourselves, is that it's a creative driven ecosystem. And I think that that's the direct link that we have with NFTs and how that assigns ownership and creates value to the creators. So the next part is that it's an environment without physical and space time limitations. So I guess what I see quite a lot when people describe the metaverse is they still see ceilings, floors, walls. And I guess that I understand why people do it because it shows that it's a virtual environment that is connectable to the real physical world, but the reality is that you don't really need that anymore. It could be whatever it can be or it should be. And I think the most important thing for us, and that's, I guess the approach that we're taking, is that it should be a place where humanity and technology coexist and there's a symbiotic relationship, because I think that that will pretty much determine the acceptance of the masses for the metaverse. And then the last bit, where we say it's enabling humanity to experience the real and the digital, I think that that's closely linked to the human emotions. And I think that when we are talking about NFTs in the context of the metaverse, we say that there's four factors that determine the relevance and maybe value of an nft, and that is scarcity. I think a lot of NFT developers have ticked that box. That's where most stop, right? So we make one, therefore it must be worth a lot. Then we feel that there should be some type of utility. So what do you use it for? Provenance, which I guess was borrowed from the art world, but is extremely relevant because it determines the relevance. And I think the final part, and this is what we are focusing on the most, is it should evoke human emotions. And I guess that when the metaverse is described based on a technology, I think we're short selling it because that's based on technology that we know today. And I think if history is proven, you can't really predict the future based on the technology that you know of. But however, there's one constant factor in the metaverse and that's us humans. So we like to define it based around us humans and the position that we will have in the metaverse. And Maybe it's a final note and maybe that's also answer to the last question, is that I was on Monday in a panel with Tony Parisi and he written the book the Seven Rules of the Metaverse. And I think it's quite an interesting book where he mentions seven points, which I quite like because it is statements, and I think most of them I quite like. So rule number one is there's only one metaverse. And I think that's an interesting, I guess, statement, considering that a lot of people are working on it. Then the metaverse is for everyone. I think that's probably what everybody would say. And nobody controls the metaverse. That's of course, I think maybe a ideological point of view that is pretty much based on the fact that the digital world is controlled by a few very big companies. Right. And then it says that the metaverse is open, it's hardware independent, it's a network, and it is basically the Internet. And I think that last point I find quite interesting is if we describe the metaverse as an extension or a next step of the Internet, I think it becomes less scary and more approachable for people that don't really know that much about the Metaverse yet.

This is one of the most well thought through descriptions I've heard of the Metaverse. So it's very good. You cover all these different aspects which I think are very important. And most of the discussion on the metaverse is about the technology and less about the human side and also about how the masters are going to embrace the metaverse. I always like to refer to it as the immersive Internet, which is sort of the next iteration after the mobile Internet, because it's, in the end, it is the Internet, you know, it's not some magical space up in the air, you know, it's just, it's just all around us. And I think that's. And it's going to be as pervasive as, you know, the air we breathe, the energy that we have.

Fully agreed. Fully agree, yeah. And I guess that the immersive Internet, I guess, is more about control than anything else. And I think that some of the technology that, that has been developed to facilitate the decentralization, it's all empowering to the individual. But I can see how that, from a cultural and social point of view, why that's happening now. So there were thoughts that happened like 20 years ago already, but I think there is a moment now where everything comes together and it kind of like fits the moment as well to have this discussion in A more broader sense.

I agree. As part of the fact that I call it the immersion incentive. I also say we move E Commerce to m Commerce to iCommerce. It's a bit of a buzzword bingo. But how do you look at that, and how do you think that brands should become successful at E Commerce? Because E Commerce was a challenge, then M Commerce was a challenge, and then now E Commerce is a whole different ballgame.

I would say I fully agree. I think so. Next week, I'm talking to Adidas, for example. They have only recently started to think about NFTs and the metaverse. I think if you ask a brand to describe themselves, like, for example, Adidas, right. I don't think they would describe themselves as, I'm a sportswear brand or workout brand. In fact, I looked it up, and they say Adidas is about more than sportswear and workout clothes. This is what they describe themselves. So if you truly believe that and that's what your brand stands for, then the question is, in the Metaverse, would I actually make a virtual duplicate or a virtual twin or digital twin of the products that I have in the physical world? If your brand stands for more than just the product itself, which I guess most serious brands would kind of, like, describe, you know, what they stand for, right? And I think that that's a very good starting point. So I was asking some people about digital twins, right? And I think the most logical first digital twin is an avatar, right? And I saw one of your YouTube films on when you were there, so I could see you as the avatar there. And I asked my daughter, who's nine years old, I said, okay, if you could have a digital twin, what would it be? Would it be human? Was my first question. And the answer was yes. And I was a bit surprised, and I said, okay, but you could be anything, right? You could be the color red. And I explained to her that I would love to be the word love in the Metaverse. So not a body or anything. And it's. I shared that with a few of my friends, were not into the Metaverse. And their reaction to the word love was. And I thought, really? Yeah, that was their reaction. And I thought, okay, that's interesting. Right? So I'm testing it out a little bit here and there. And I think that for brands, what the question really is is you kind of could be whatever you want to be. So why would you want to develop a virtual shoe? Only because it's quite obvious that you are selling shoes and now you do the virtual equivalent of It, I think for some brands who have only just started to contemplate moving into the Metaverse, this is a too big a conversation. Right. The real what they do is they duplicate what they have, because that's what makes sense. But I think that the real challenge will come after this. First, I would say fad, and that is you are kind of like in control of what you want to represent. And if you really, for example, as a brand want to save the planet, then you might actually be different in the metaverse than who you are in the physical world. So this isn't really answering your question, but it's putting something like before that. And so I think that brands have to really think about who they want to be and not jump into the virtual product stage immediately, because I think there's a little bit more to explore there.

Yeah, I think that that makes total sense because if you all of a sudden as a brand, get the tools to do whatever you want, why do exactly the same as you do in real life?

And I must say that sometimes when you look at the digital products that Gucci, for example, has developed, so I'm from the fashion world originally, it looks quite shit, to be honest. And I think the only reason why people walk around in the games with it is because it's Gucci. So it's quite interesting is that maybe you have something else that represents Gucci that actually looks better than just that. But I can understand why they're doing it like what they are doing. But I think you also get a lot of criticism for it because I think later on you had a question about how big do you think the digital to the physical will be? And I think that links a little bit for me to this, is that I personally think that AR is going to be the main driver in the coming years because it will connect the virtual digital with the real. And I can be a real person, but in a metaverse environment. And I think for a lot of, I would say ordinary people, that's an acceptable first step for the non gamers, I would say. Right. So for people who are really into gaming, they know virtual environments and they accept the fact that it doesn't look like the real world because technology is not really allowing us to make it look that way yet. So, yeah, I think that that is probably how I see the next steps to the metaverse. Is it still maybe a combination between the two in some sense?

I think so as well, because in the end it's very much possible that we end up with an Oasis. But I don't think it would be a very happy place where we all literally live in virtual reality. But then again, I was reading an article the other day about Niantic. The CEO of Niantic, who is of course says the same thing as you do, it's all about augmented reality. But then there's also problems there because if you all work with our glasses on, we all have recommendation engines in our glasses and I can see the people outside of the street with all their information project on top of them. Or even worse, I can turn every black person into a monkey. Something really bad that I say now, but I mean, I could do that because it's just a filter or I can just filter them out altogether. That's very horrible, obviously, because that can have a very negative impact on site.

Yeah, very true, very true. Yeah. And I think that it's interesting because at some of the conferences I'm at, when there's like panels and the audience can ask questions, is it's interesting how many questions I get about metaverse and NFTs that have a relationship to is it going to be inclusive or is it going to be exclusive? And I guess the question is, well, the real world is very exclusive, Right. It's not very. Well, it's not very inclusive. So to think that the metaverse is actually going to be that much different. I think that's an interesting starting point, actually. And also what a few of the other questions are always about. Okay, so social media has turn the world into this, well, some say pretty shitty place where everything is about the way you look. Isn't this going to kind of like if you then combine it with the metaverse and then with NFTs, which is purely about speculation, isn't that going to be like the end of the world? And I guess that drives me in what I do because whenever people are so polarized about it, there must be something real good in it as well. Yeah. Because I think it shows that there's dissatisfaction in the world that we have now. So there's opportunities actually to improve some elements. Will it be a utopia, as you said? Right. For sure not. And I think it's trying to find the right way.

What are the dangers of the metaverse? Because if you look at Web 2.0, there are a lot of problems. We have hackers, we have scammers, we have malware, we have phishing, we have deepfakes, we have, you name it, we have polarization of social media, as you just mentioned. How does it reflect into the metaverse?

Yeah. So I think that the, what I guess digitalization of society has resulted or has shown us, I would say, is that the world is not as rosy as we probably thought it was. And of course then the question is, was the world always not rosy? And is this just a way to take the veal off or is this the cause of the whole thing? Right. I have a personal idea about it, but of course I don't know. So I'm thinking that a lot of the issues that are there, I think are probably inter human or intra human issues that because the humanity is going to be the constant factor also in the metaverse, those issues are still going to be there. What I do think though, in the metaverse is that it doesn't have to be about physical appearance in the shape that we have today. So if you identify yourself as a gentle soul, then there's no real reason why you would have to be a person in the metaverse. You could be maybe this word love. And I think you could actually focus on the things that you are that you find important. And I think to a certain extent, the metaverse will help you to be a little bit more in control of things because of the decentralization component. Of course, the reality also is, and that's something that I recognize as well, is that a lot of people don't want to take responsibility for their own lives and therefore this is not going to be their world. Because suddenly you have to keep the password of your digital wallet, otherwise you're basically screwed. And I think for some of us that's happened, and some of us it's hell. Right. I think that the metaverse, if you explain it as an extension or like an immersive Internet, I think for our younger generation it will be a far more manageable proposition than it will be for me. Right. I'm 48. I can still remember when there was no computer or when I had likewise, this little tape recorder on my little tulip computer.

Likewise, you know.

So for me it's quite shocking to see all these things. And obviously sometimes I switch off even though I'm working in it, let alone if I talk to my friends who have no affinity with, even with social media, some of them.

Right.

But I think I look at the younger generation and I think we just have to be a little bit less afraid. So I'm not afraid of technology full stop. Right. So I think we have to be conscious about how we go about things. So completely decentralized world, right? Yeah, it's never going to happen. I think because there will always be calls for control. So I think it will not be that extreme, but I think that control in the metaverse will have a different meaning. And that means, for I say, myself and all the generations, a change from the world that we know. As we all know, a lot of people do not like change. And it goes quick now, right? It goes really fast.

I think that's one of the main points that I've so far taken away, is that technology is the easy part. No matter how hard building the Metaverse will be, technology is still the easy part. The difficult part is the people, the change. Enterprises that need to change, employees that need to change, brands that need to change. That's all human. And people don't like that. When I first started with my entrepreneurial career a decade ago, I was studying big data and I thought five years, 10 years from now, everyone does big data analytics everywhere. It's all sorted down the road. And there's still the majority of the companies who still have no clue about big data. So that sort of shows, I think, at the same time how difficult it is. I just want to go back before we dive more into NFTs. So you were talking about Adidas and today Nike announced Nike Land in Roblox. You might have seen it. Is that a way for companies to build brand loyalty with icommerce in the metaverse, or is it really that, as you mentioned, you have to take a step back and really reinvent yourself basically as a brand in the Metaverse?

Yeah, that's a very good question. And actually I just got out of a meeting with two of my business partners about the fact whether we should talk about brands and creators or whether we should talk about creators and businesses because of the connotation that word brand has with creators, with individual creators. And I think that in the Metaverse or the first users of the Metaverse have been predominantly individuals and have been a lot of them have been creators and creatives and individuals. A bit anarchistic as well. Right. I think people with a strong opinion and pretty much against central control, and I think for a lot of curators, brands resemble that controlling mechanism. So I understand that Nike goes down this route and I think of all the places that you could do it, probably Roblox, I think, is pretty close to where all the creators are. Right. I love the whole setup and maybe a small anecdote. My 7 year old, he wanted to download a little game on his telephone, on his mobile, and I couldn't find the passcode of the Apple account. So I said, well. And then I sent him away. He comes back two seconds later, he's like, can you type in the word into Roblox and type it in? And there he finds like a little rip off of one of those creators did of the same game. And he just starts to play it there. And I'm thinking, okay, so it's a very smart move of Nike to actually open up there because your target audience is your customer of tomorrow. And in that sense you're just creating a touch point. Right. And I think to create touch points in digital world, that's the key of making an impact. So I think they're doing the right thing. What I do think though is if the starting point, at least my starting point is that there will be one metaverse, then to create these little kingdoms. Yeah, that's quite an interesting different starting point.

What do you mean?

Yeah, so what I'm thinking is that the likes of Nike or what a lot of brands like to do, instead of participating in a general ecosystem, they try to create their own ecosystem because that's what they're used to in the physical world and in the digital world. And I think that in a decentralized world it's almost like, well, a lot of the traders feel this is our world now, this is our time, we're going to benefit the most. It's giving power back to the people type of thing. Right. So don't you dare to kind of like create this environment here where you are going to be in control Again. This is an interesting discussion that I had with my business partners and this was their view more or less. And I was a bit shocked that. Oh really? Is this how curators think nowadays? But I can see that, yeah, I can see that point as well. And I think that that's maybe a challenge is how can you be an influence without taking control.

Yeah. So from that perspective, having what Nike has done with Nikeland is creating their own kingdom within Roblox, it might not be such a good idea in the long run. They should have, you know, just be everywhere in Roblox, so to say, and not to have this little kingdom just like Paris Hilton does. And I think in Decentraland and you know, everyone is creating their own little kingdoms, as you say.

Yeah, exactly. But I think that that comes back to your question about E commerce. To E commerce. I think in the E commerce, if you look at the user journey, user journeys are quite straightforward. Right. So you have your social media channels, you create your touch points there, you redirect to a central location for a purchase. And I think I would argue that in the metaverse that could be different. And for sure in the metaverse, platforms are not going to be the ones that are going to take the biggest profits out of the whole thing. I think it's far more peer to peer. And if like for example, OpenSea is any prediction of what the rest is going to be like, then of course you know, they're a powerful player. But percentage wise compared to Amazon, it's a completely different business model. And I think it's much more appealing to the creators and I think it should also be more appealing to brands in that respect.

Yeah, I think it's being a creator myself. It's. Although not in like in a visual, but more in the word sense.

Yeah, yeah, it's the same thing for me.

Yeah, I think it's the way that the big companies benefit from the creators is just insane if you think about it. Yeah, that's not how the world should be.

Exactly.

So let's go then to NFTs, because I think NFTS is a fascinating concept. We wanted to talk about the seven characteristics, sort of. Sorry, the four characteristics as you mentioned. First of all, how important are NFTs for the metaverse?

Yeah. So for me, when you say nft, for me being in this business, what I think is the most important thing about an NFT is the smart contract that's behind it, which basically just is the rules of what you attach to a digital asset and the rules are for you to decide as a creator. So I think that is an extremely important starting point. Then with the smart contract, you assign ownership and you certify the authenticity. I think those are the three points that for me resemble the real value of an nft. And then I think if you consider how much of our daily lives is a digital asset without us realizing it, then I think that combination for me is the most powerful part of what I've seen happening over the past, I don't know, decade or something like that, I think after E commerce introduction. So this was basically my driver when I wanted to be in NFTs and when we started. So what that means is that everything that is a digital asset or that is digital and that you want it to be an asset and therefore assign ownership and certify the authenticity. I think that could be traded if you want to, or at least you could prove that you are the one who developed it. That could also be a goal. And for a creative or creator, you can assign these little Royalty payments so you can create passive income. And I think that's unheard of for creatives. There was never a passive income model except for when you write a book, right, and you get your royalty payments. But in my family we have a couple of writers. Those checks are not the most impressive.

Checks in the world. I can confirm that.

And so think that whole principle I think is amazing. That is step one, step two about NFTs is that you could actually handle a lot of the stuff yourself. So you could go, if you make music, you could go to a record label obviously. But the role of a record label before was I know where you can make an LP or I know where you can make a CD or now, you know, it becomes, it's become more digital. So what you see is that the role of record label, for example, has changed a lot to becoming this promotional machine really and to find talent. But now you get to a point of a lot of the basic stuff. You don't need anybody anymore. I think to come back also to the brand example is like before Adidas would need to have a factory somewhere, probably in China or Cambodia, you would need to have designers. You have to get your fabrics and stuff, the soles molded, everything. Now you know, any 16 year old can design it. As long as you have creative talent, right. So I think with NFTs, it's the fact that as a creator you are far more in control of the process that I find the most attractive proposition. And I think that when you look at what's currently available as an nft, it's very early days, it's very short sighted. I think it's the lowest of the low hanging fruits that we see now. And digital art I guess is the first type of expression that makes sense obviously in this decentralized world. And if you look at opensea, what strikes me the most is that there's also so much shit. And I think that. Well, at least from my point of view, right, so it's of course the eye of the beholder and it fits the current clientele which pretty much crypto enthusiasts that speculated on a price increase. So what we believe is that digital assets, like assets in the real world where I guess besides maybe a house, almost none of our digital physical assets, you know, increases in price or everything depreciates. Right. And I think we're pretty okay with our car depreciating in value or our clothes, as long as we maybe can resell it at some stage or at least we've enjoyed it. We're perfectly fine with it. And I think that for digital assets we're going to get to a point where it's not about price increase in speculation anymore, but it's going to be about we enjoy digital assets like we are enjoying physical assets and therefore if we can set it at scrap value, that's perfectly fine. Right. It's not for collection only anymore, but that requires I guess different types of NFTs. And so I think what we are doing for our app is we are creating a new, a number of new NFT categories that don't exist at the moment, such as these filters, AR lenses, 3D objects, skins as NFTs that you can add to your stories and we make very tailor made for our, let's say NFT player. However, I'm sure that there will be more and more types of social media channels or communication channels where I would say third party creators can contribute to what is available on those platforms.

So I think that we are definitely at the start of NFTs and it's a gold rush all over it, all over again. Which is fine because it helps us to kickstart the market. But there's one challenge that I have with NFTs and that is often it can be an illusion if you don't know what you're buying. And most likely that will be the case for 99% of the people. The guy who bought 5,000 days from people literally only bought a jpeg, didn't buy the copyright. He's not allowed to print his own T shirt, he's not allowed to have the physical thing in his home. He literally only bought jpeg and that's very confusing for people. And if he then would send a loan to you and you would sell a loan to me and he would say, yeah, it includes copyright and you can print it on T shirts and I start to do that and then people can come to me, you got a payout because I didn't include it in the beginning. How should we go about that? Because I was talking to a lawyer this morning. That's very complicated stuff. Yeah, we don't even read the conditions.

No, I think you can even take it further and what you could say is that person owns the private key that you have in your digital wallet. That's what that person owns. Then the JPEG sits somewhere on the blockchain on either a decentralized or physical server. If it's a physical server and that the owner of the server unplugs the server, there is not even an image. Right. So I think it's even worse than that. And I think that's what people don't realize. But I think how we qualify what the NFT is, I think is slightly different there. So I think what people are really buying is the same as, you know, you would not quantify or qualify a Picasso painting by saying, well, it's a piece of canvas with some wood on the back and they use some paint. And the real value of it is, well, if I go to the store, you know, and make a list, you know, it's probably about $150 or something like that, right? That's not how it qualifies because it has the provenance part that it. First of all, it says Picasso on it and that's basically it. So I guess we buy it for that reason and we can show that we are the owner of it. And I think the owner of it, I think people sometimes confuse that with, well, yeah, you have the Picasso in your home, but, well, sometimes what a lot of people do own a Picasso. It's out in a museum somewhere else. So the fact that they own it and they can say they own it is because they have the ownership document that proves it, but they don't actually have the real product there either. So the fact that you have the ownership document means that you can sell it and only you can sell that part. So I think what we see with NFTs is that we start to dissociate ourselves from something physical to being the owner of it. And I think we sometimes kid ourselves here with the fact that because we can touch it, that that means that we really own it. And if we can only see it on a stream, that that's a different concept because I think the only reason like. So I'm thinking that that's just a different. I think some of us look at ownership in a different way. And I think I agree with you. A lot of people see it as, okay, I can touch it and I can hold it in my hands and therefore I own it. But take into consideration money, right? My grandparents are, have all passed away, right? But I think if they would still be alive, they would prefer to have cash in the house. My kids, I think maybe the pocket money is maybe some coins or whatever, right?

But Robux is much more important.

You know, I think we go to a generation, we will never see physical money anymore. And now we're talking about a euro. Well, all our funding is in usdt, right? It's just, it doesn't mean anything. So I think ownership in that sense becomes something that is different. I think what all NFTs or these smart contracts do is that now you are able to officially own something that is digital. Where before you would have the same digital thing, but you couldn't really own it in that sense. We couldn't prove it. You had to go to wipo, because wipo, for example, when I think already a couple of years ago, besides doing like the IP registration, they also had this program set up on the blockchain where you could submit an idea on a piece of paper and they would register it and you would get a copy. Well, fast forward now that whole solution is obsolete because every person and do the same thing, right. So of course we now go through a stage where people are going to mint NFTs out of everything that's digital. That doesn't make any sense because, you know, yeah, you can prove that you own it now and you can prove the authenticity, but you might never want to sell it. So we're, for example, going to mint our brand logo, which I don't think has ever been done before. And am I ever going to sell it? Yeah, probably not. Is it only going to be the logo? No, it's going to be the whole development process from idea to the final logo. And then I already know that this logo is going to change in a couple of years time and therefore it will be a second one. And that's how you create, show your provenance. So I think there's loads of use cases that can be developed and I think that at the moment we can't really predict what those use cases are going to be. But of course it will be essential for all these use cases to be developed for more and more people. Take an interest, because if it stops here with digital art, then it's never going to go anywhere.

No, no. How important is digital fashion in the metaverse?

That's a good question. So I was on a panel the other day with the owner of the Fabricant, which is maybe carry. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They're doing really nice things. I think where their view and my view are changing somewhat is in terms of, for me, it's more about identity than about whether that's a piece of clothing or not. And I think it will be very important for people to show their identity. So of course a piece of clothing is part of that. I think what they are doing is quite interesting in terms of they are developing fashion as if it's like a real dress and that's the way it looks in the, you know, I would say in digital virtual environment. The other day they did something for, I think it was like a Minecraft or something like that. And obviously it looked pixelated. And the first reaction was, yeah, not, not too sure about it. But then I was thinking, okay, so what you've now realized is that the form completely irrelevant because this is just in the Minecraft world, what everything looks like. And this creates identity to this individual. And that's the real purpose of what fashion is about from my point of view. Right. So I'm thinking that, so what the end result is of what a fashion product is, I think that becomes then the more of an interesting discussion, I find, than to just take a real dress and make it look real in a virtual environment.

But then you always have like a philosophical debate about how do we portray identity? Which is a fascinating question, I think.

Yeah. So if you talk to them, I think how they may start the conversation is that. Or at least this is how they start the conversation that I had with them is even if you don't care about fashion, you made a choice that you put on a certain shirt this morning or certain pants. And maybe the statement is, I don't do fashion, but that's a statement nonetheless. Or maybe the statement is, I don't give a shit. Right. I think that's also a statement. And so I truly think that the way we look, the way we dress, the way we behave, it is a reflection of who we are. And I think the only downside is a little bit of. If you call digital fashion then described from the point of view of the people that care about fashion. And therefore if you as an individual don't really care about fashion, you don't associate with that term.

It's just digital clothing or digital skins or.

Exactly, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think that that is probably. Well, of course I know exactly what you mean when you say digital fashion. Right. So I think it's also a great word because I understand what it means and I associate it with identity. But I think that for people who are not into fashion, they will look at it and like, oh, yeah, well, give me.

I don't need Gucci.

Yeah, give me a break. I don't need Gucci. Right. And I'm thinking, well, somebody was telling me yesterday that Zeman, they're doing like an advertising campaign now where they have like pimped up like winter clothing. I didn't see the campaign yet, but it is almost like they're proud to be.

To wear Zemon.

Yeah, to wear Zemo, like and not pay a lot of money. So it's taking the fashion idea and then, you know, applying it to something and be proud of not being able to afford expensive fashion. And I thought, well, to a certain extent, it's targeting exactly the same thing, and that is certain identity that triggers your customers. And I see it's an empowering thing that you can be proud of. You know, this is what you can afford, for example. Right. And be proud of it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that's probably how I see it more, but so it's a little bit more philosophical in terms of really giving you an answer.

Identity is a very, very important part. And just as a sidestep for my second book, which was about Blockchain, I took a deep dive into what is identity? And which is a very difficult question. And it seems to be very straightforward. But identity is always different. And there's a lot to the concept of identity, much more than we would think of during a normal day. So it is an important component, and it will be an important component in the metaverse as well, I think.

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

So in terms of characteristics of digital fashion, obviously they are linked to NFTs. I think that's clear because that's how you can get. You can own it, and you can prove that it's your skin, it's your. You're a good, cheap bag. What are some of the other characteristics you think of digital fashion?

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean with characteristics in that sense.

Maybe it's more like from a technical perspective. Yes, you can put on your skin, but you want that f to be interoperable. For example, you want to be able to take your skin from Fortnite. That kind of.

Okay, yeah, okay. Understand what you mean. Well, I think it pretty much follows at the moment the big developers of avatars, right? So the big avatar developers are making sure that their avatar can actually travel between all these different digital worlds so that you are visible the same way in Decentraland as that you could, for example, be in Roblox. I think that whole concept, I think, is very interesting, right, because it assumes that you want to be the same person so that you, as an individual, you want to be the same person in any world where you are, versus you could be different in any place where you are. Which I guess is also an option.

An interesting discussion again, for your identity part.

Yeah. So I think that for digital fashion, right. I think it could be that it follows the path of wherever you are, you dress for the occasion. So you like in Minecraft, obviously it will have to look different because they determine what you look like in Minecraft. So for a dressmaker, digital dressmaker, I think it's an amazing opportunity because you can actually expand your portfolio by having the same dress for different looks or different environments and make it tailor made for that. So I'm thinking that I would embrace that actually. And that's what I also think. Like for example, for our case where we are developing filter, when we have created. Developing filters, I can see that you're developing a filter now for us, but there will be other channels where there will be storytelling going on. And by designing it once and making the application slightly different, you can actually develop it for everyone. And I think that that is quite a cool concept because then your creativity is actually monetized in different places. And I think that makes it. It's a fair thing, right, to see it like that. But I'm thinking in terms of having avatars that function in all these different environments, I think that's an amazing thing. It's really cool because it provides some consistency and I think realistically speaking, people would like to have that consistency as well.

Yeah. This morning I spoke to Timo Toke, he's the founder of Readypayme. So a very interesting conversation. But moving your assets from one world to the other, which is I think quite important if you want to build an open metaverse.

And I think, of course it's always the question. Okay. So I always compare it to little electricity plugs. Right. How on earth could it be that everybody, like every country or most countries have all these different ones. So apparently, you know, you need consensus to a certain extent. And I think now we're in a different world where there's much more opportunities, where you can already think up front about synergies. But let's see how that works.

And then we just stick to the digital products. We're moving from direct to consumer to direct to avatar. That's the thing nowadays. How does it change the retail industry?

Yeah. So I'm not sure I agree with the statement. So that we're moving from direct to consumer to direct to avatar. But I guess that's from a product point of view. I see your point. Right, so you're talking about developing digital products that you have to dress your avatar.

I think, well, in the end you still sell to consumer, obviously, just from that perspective, it remains direct to consumer.

But yeah, yeah, well, if I fast forward, right, if I fast forward 20 years, I think what will probably be the case is that you have digital only brands, right. Who only cater to that part. I think what will happen pretty soon is that you will have fully digital virtual brands that start to develop physical products to satisfy those needs. I think it's going to be the other way around, which is going to be quite interesting, right, because that's the moment when existing brands in the real world are going to realize like, holy shit, you know, this is the reverse world and we can't really compete with this. This is a brand that has captured the heart and minds already of the people that have moved to the metaverse first.

Didn't even think about it.

Yeah. So I think it's going to happen like that because you already see it that you have digital products or digital brands only, right. Who only operate on social media. They ultimately always have the urge to have a store somewhere and have a real somewhere, right? So I think there is this. I'm not often it. So they always use the, the example like, yeah, it's going to be a showroom, right. So people can try on the pieces of clothing and stuff like that. But I think the reality is that it's something else. It's. It's the urge that humans have to be physically in places. But anyway, so to answer your question, so the retail industry, I'm sure that they will have a virtual department and a physical department as they now have the digital department. So I think the interesting thing for the retail industry is, okay, so what position are you going to take? Because let's face it, the retail industry has barely survived the digital e commerce era, let alone this. Right. So I think what they need to realize is that everything is about touch points. And if you realize that there is a need for a physical touch point, then it also means that how you design your store is going to be different than what a lot of stores look like now. So one of our other companies is a company where we help Western business enter the Chinese market. The Chinese market is fully digitalized, right? So to walk into a store where you have, where you use your mobile phone to scan the piece of clothing, where you have digital boards where you can fit your clothing and change your. So you can fit the clothing, but you click on the button, you see different colors in front of these magic mirrors. I think it's much more about the experience part. And I think that that will. If there's a retailer that understands this part and now gets into this virtual environment, you know, all these virtual and digital brands, they want to be working with that retailer, they want to connect with the customers also on a physical level. For me, that's so exciting to go, but as an experience and to have everything combined there, I think that's amazing.

Yeah, I completely agree. And from that perspective, it will have a massive impact on the retail industry and there will be brands who won't get it and there will be brands who master it and that's going to be fantastic to see. You already enter the GR about digital to physical. I didn't even think about having a digital brand going to physical. I was more thinking you see something in the digital world and you press a button and a physical asset is being delivered to your house, which is nice because it helps you to explore a product before you buy it in much more intuitive ways. But what Juma just mentioned takes it to a whole new level. So that's very interesting. So I'm just going to move to the economics of the metaverse because I think that is also something really important. And first of all, have you heard of the term metanomics?

No, I'd never heard of it. Obviously I googled it and then I read Economy of the Metaverse and I thought, yeah, makes sense.

Yeah, so it's a bit like tokenomics, you know, made up words. But I think the more important question is, you know, how does the economy of the metaverse work and how do we create this? Because if we want to have a mass adoption for the metaverse, it needs to be a vibrant, it needs to be a rich economy. How are we going to do that?

Yeah, what I think is that I think as long as the metaverse is a decentralized and creator driven place, I think it will automatically be rich and diverse. Obviously, if the powers that be in the physical world and in the digital world step into the metaverse or basically continue what they're doing into say, this immersive Internet environment, then I think it will look less rich and less vibrant because it will be almost like a virtual duplicate of what we already know. I think if the first adapters are any sign of what it would be, I think we will be fine because they're pretty anarchistic.

Again, if you can have a bored ape club, you know, then.

Well, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. So obviously they're making their moves and I think okay, but to answer your question, I think it will be completely different. And I compare it pretty much to high streets. The high street, the way it looked to where all but you had all these different little shops towards it became a shop like most streets look exactly the same.

Right.

It's all the big brands are there towards now it's even getting worse because there is no place anymore for the small retailers. And now it looks exactly the same. You don't really know. If you blindfold somebody, put them somewhere, they would have no idea where they are. And I think that that's what the digital part did. So the digital environment actually is very vibrant and very diverse because most people have the feeling like they could do whatever they. Everybody can kind of like do it now or everybody can be a seller. And I think in the Metaverse it will be even beyond that because now what you have is you have individual creators that don't need any production facilities to make a physical product. They don't need any knowledge about customs or logistics to take it from China and to send it to the US for example. Now you can have, you can sit behind a computer and you can put it out in the world. It brings it so close to individuals that I think it can only be more diverse and more rich. Obviously the big dilemma is in all this stuff, how are you going to find what you want?

Right, yeah. There is no Google in the metaverse.

No. So I think that this is of course looking for a business opportunity.

There's one. Yeah.

So, exactly. So I think that part of what we are trying to do is a little bit this. Right. The type of infrastructure that we're building is we help people to communicate and tell their NFT stories to the world. But at the same time, ultimately we have an idea about putting a button out there that says, okay, put my profile public within the app so that it will become a destination for people to find out about everything that's often happening and to see like the true potential of what NFTs are about. So that is a bit of a, I would say a long term plan that we have. But the fundamental part is that whatever you see on it will be very much credit driven. And I think that's a big challenge. Right. Because intuitively my thinking is that, yeah, this is what we're building. But yeah, is it going to be something that's really what we want?

What kind of new business models can we expect in the Metaverse?

Yeah, so one of the first business model that is going to happen or is happening is that you will have virtual only business models that do not touch on, I would say, the physical world. And I think that for a young generation that is completely acceptable and for an older generation that's completely not acceptable. So I think it will be A lot. A very polarizing business model where you really have to, I guess, understand what you do it for. Who is your customer there? And I think that if you have a brand that caters to, I don't know, 35 to 60 year olds, it's quite interesting. You know, what's your role there? Is there anybody there that's interested in you at all? Right, that's the virtual only business model. What I do see is that because the starting principle that I have is that there's only one metaverse, is that there's business models that are based on what we just talked about with these avatars, right? Is that you want to make things work in all these different places that seem like popping up left, right and center, but somehow you're looking for a common denominator for it to all blend together. So I think it's less silo thinking, it's much more let's do this together. And I guess that's now very relevant because this is such a young industry, right? So I think everybody's still in that mode. Of course, fast forward 10 years, that might not be the case. But let's see, I think another business model that at least we are focusing on is that you look at everything that is digital that can have ownership assigned to it. It is tradable. And that's not only on a B2C level, but I think the market is going to be huge on the B2B level. So, for example, if you are a 3D modeler or like you're capable of developing digital twins, I personally think that if I could give my son one piece of advice is to become a 3D modeler. Because in this metaverse you can sell everything that's 3D. You can sell, turn into an NFT and sell. And I think there will be a need for it somewhere. So I quite enjoy that. I think the final part that is quite contentious, but I really love is that there's a few companies that are working on developing a business model where your personal data, you can put it in a trust, like a legal entity, like a trust, and you can actually put it up for sale on. So you basically put your data on the blockchain and you put it up for sale as an NFT where you can actually split up all your different parts of your personal data and you can actually sell it to the Facebook of this world. Obviously it's a utopia for now because the powers will prevent this from happening. But I think it puts down a very important part and that is it puts the control firmly into us as an individual, where we should benefit from digital data, or in this case, data, because we are that data, so we better be paid for it. And I think that that is to take the ownership to like another level. But I think that I see as a very interesting business model because that changes everything that is digital at the moment.

Yeah. And it's funny that you said it, because a couple of years ago, you know, I was running data in Amsterdam, Meetup around big data, and we had several companies. One of the sections was we had invited startups to talk and we had several companies, and they're doing that, but without the blockchain, without NFTs, because it just didn't exist.

Exactly.

Just Ethereum didn't even exist yet. So this has been a dream for a long time already and it's very, very difficult to make it work. But, yeah, once we crack that nut, then it has enormous potential.

Yeah, because I think what you basically could do is, so we are talking to a company and they asked us if we want to have it. Of course, part of our business model is based on data as well. But what they suggest to us is what if all the data that you collect about your users, you actually store that you give it to them back and you enable them to actually sell that data off to other people who are interested in it. And I think that is such a fascinating concept that every platform or some shape or app or whatever enables the users to own that part of data that you are actually collecting. So you can use it maybe yourself, but at the same time, the users can also use it and set it up. I think that's a fascinating concept. And yeah, I know there's always this. From a business point of view, of course, I would say, hell no. From an idealistic point of view, I would say that's actually really nice.

Yeah, I agree.

And that wraps up the conversation with Christian. If there's one thing that stands out for me from the conversation, it is what a fantastic world awaits us where NFTs will play a big role. But before we arrive there, there's a lot of work to be done to fix some of the challenges that awaits us. I couldn't agree more, which is why in my new book, I discussed the role of NFTs at length. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you will be notified when any of the other interviews will become available. Thank you and see you in the metaverse.