Revolutionizing Entertainment Via the Metaverse with Matthew Brewbaker – Step into the Metaverse podcast: EP22

Good day everyone and welcome to the Step into the Metaverse podcast. My name is Marc Van Reimenam and I'm also known as the Digital Speaker. I'm a future tech strategist and I think about how emerging technologies change organizations and society. This podcast is part of my new book called Step into the how the Immersive Internet Will Unlock a Trillion Dollar Social Economy. The book is available as an ebook, hard copy and audiobook. As part of this book, I did nearly 100 in depth interviews with the stakeholders involved in creating the open Metaverse. The investors, the developers, the artists, the collectors, etc. And I've turned a selection of these interviews into this podcast as I think that these conversations are too valuable to leave them on my computer. In this interview, I interviewed Matthew Brubaker. Matthew has a long career in entertainment. He has worked in production on Hollywood movies like Hancock and the First Daughter. He previously worked firsthand at the intersection of technology and art. He has now founded vu, a Metaverse development company focused on the future of virtual entertainment. During the interview, we discussed how the Metaverse will change entertainment as we know it and how brands should embrace this new paradigm if they want to remain relevant in the coming decade. We also cover the role of user generated content and how we can create a rich and vibrant economy. Enjoy the conversation.

Maybe you can share a bit of background of how you are involved with the Metaverse. You already mentioned a little bit, but for the record.

Yeah. So about two years ago I was playing video games and I just sort of came up with an idea that, oh, you know, video games would be great used as an application kind of purpose, with the purpose of doing something and not just playing something. And I came up with this idea and I kind of worked on it just on my own for a while. And then earlier this year I raised funding for that idea and we started working on it. And it was actually after we started working on it that we realized that we were working on a Metaverse project. And this is what you and I were talking about with, you know, Jonah was actually the one to introduce me to that concept and it kind of grew from there. You know, I wasn't quite sure what the Metaverse was at first, but I think that things are moving so fast that I don't know if anybody knew what the Metaverse was even nine months ago. So, like now that it's kind of public talking point, a discourse, if you will, between a bunch of people who are likely, we're all probably sci fi nerds who grew up on this stuff, and we kind of want to build the future that we want, you know, and that we think that society itself can kind of grow from. I think that there's a lot in the metaverse, and there's a lot in its applicative purposes that I think that that was my initial sort of thing, and I. I had a feeling other people would probably be thinking of similar things, you know, but that's what the metaverse is. I mean, that's the thing that we all kind of want to be connected through. So.

Yeah. Are you able to share what you're building?

I can't talk about it too much, but I can tell you the origin of the idea. So I come from the film business, and what I wanted to do was I wanted to. This is the German. It's grown since then. But the germ of the idea was basically that I wanted to be able to watch movies in the locations those movies take place. So I was like, you know, it'd be great to have to, like, watch Jurassic park and Jurassic park, you know, or it'd be cool to, like, watch the Matrix in the Matrix, or it'd be cool to watch Blade Runner in the City, through which Blade Runner. Like that. There's something especially geeky. You know, I've been going to comic con for 17 years now. I've been going for forever. So for me, part of the love that I think that I'm bringing to the metaverse is that love that I feel for these stories, and that's the germ of the idea. And since then, it kind of grew. I started hiring people, and those people had ideas, and everything just kind of exploded from there. But, yeah, that's kind of the beginning of.

That Sounds very interesting and very much related to an idea we. I have been working on before, but we decided not to pursue it because it's very, very complicated. But it sounds very much similar. So it's good that you're working on that. So congrats.

Yeah, there is something about. I think what the metaverse does is it gives us a place that we could only dream about, and to really kind of walk into that dream and to experience it. I think that's what the metaverse is. It's a dream. We're creating a dream. And, you know, from there, it's the. How do you actually put real life application within that dream? Like, how can we exist within the dream and build from there? I think that that's really what it's about.

So nice with that. You answered my first question, which I think is the most sort of philosophical answer I've heard.

The dream thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's quite cool. I like it.

So early on, we actually use the motto. There's a. Not a motto, but it's a quote from Orson Welles that is cinema is a ribbon of dream. And I feel like that that's what the metaverse is. You know, it's this ribbon of dream that we're all sort of weaving. And I would say the metaverse is more of a tapestry, like it's a tapestry of dream as opposed to cinemas, that it's a ribbon. Of course, he is referring to the ribbon. Also alluding to the concept of the 35 millimeter print. Right. It's a ribbon, but I think the metaverse will be a tapestry of dream.

Yeah, that's nice. So how important do you think identity and reputation are for that dream, for that metaverse?

Are you talking about identity from the user's point of view? Is that the idea, or.

Yes. Yeah. Because obviously in the metaverse, you can be whoever you want to be. If you want to be a bored ape, you can be a bored ape. If you want to be a gorilla, or if you want to be a dinosaur, you can be a dinosaur. If you're a female, you want to be a male, you can do that as well. Anything is possible.

I actually think it'll be kind of similar to what we're doing right now. I have a theory that it'll start off with everybody being all crazy, like, looking stuff, and then we're going to slowly find our identity. Right. I think that we're going to enter this, let's call it a dream just for the purposes of keeping it philosophical. But we're going to enter this, this dream, and it's going to start off as, yeah, I'm going to want to be a Final Fantasy character one day, and then one day I'm going to just want to be a dinosaur. But I think that through that process, I think over the years, we're going to slowly weave what that identity is. And I'm not exactly sure where that is going to go, but I'm really interested to see where it does go, because I can't really tell you where it'll end up, but my guess is that it'll be somewhere between what we look like right now and some representation of who we believe we are and the things that we identify with. So if you identify with plants, maybe your character has, you know, there's a kind of a plant element, or if you identify with a particular property. You know, maybe if you identify with a matrix, you know, the movie the Matrix, you're wearing like a coat or something like that. Yeah, that's my guess.

As far as, and related to that and how important is reputation? Because, you know, in the current world, reputation is of course, everything. Yeah. But if you can switch your identity.

I actually, I actually think it'll also be similar. So the way the Internet started was that there was Internet early days, everybody was anonymous. And then it slowly became this thing where anonymity was like less of a thing. We sought, and we sought more identity. And of course, when you seek identity, that's when reputation becomes a thing. So I would say it's, it'll probably end up being similar to the, the way the Internet works right now, which is I might have an avatar. Or by avatar I mean I might have like a, like a profile picture. Maybe it'll be me, maybe it'll be something else. Maybe it'll be something I identify with. And maybe I'll be called, you know, cool guy 21 or whatever, you know, guy who wears flower shirts, you know, 21. But I think it'll be similar. I think it'll end up where reputation will matter because you'll want to seek an identity. And once you start seeking identity, that means because the purpose of identity is to separate you from the crowd. Right. It's not just your own way of seeing yourself, it's actually the way you see yourself in a crowd. So that I think by nature means that reputation will be important because that'll be part of your identity.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. So of course you have the consumer side and the users entering the metaverse, or in this case, stepping into the metaverse. It's also the title of the book, Step into the Metaverse. But you also can have brands who can step into the metaverse. What are your tips for brands to become successful with iCommerce?

I think it's a brand new thing. Right. So what I think now might not be what one would want to do a few years from now just because of how fast things are developing. But if someone were to be like, hey, I have a brand, like, how do I get into the metaverse? I would say start exploring NFTs, the concept of the NFT. You know, NFTs don't just have to be digital things, they can also be digital representations of things. So, yeah, explore NFTs. And then from there, I would say once you develop your nft, we could call it A line or something like that, your brand, your NFT brand, and how that brand relates to your company in real life, then seek partnerships with Metaverses. So there will likely be people who are out there seeking content, people like me and you, you know, and we're all going to have different ways that we approach it and to seek the Metaverse brand that most identifies, I think, with your company brand.

Yeah. And so from that perspective, then of course, we have sort of consumer side, we have brands interacting, but then there's also an enterprise side. Microsoft is very much focused on the enterprise metaverse. Zuckerberg, of course, also with Horizon. Work, Home, you know, work. You have media, enterprise.

Enterprise is going to be huge. Yeah.

What are your ideas around that?

Well, first off, what we're doing right now on Zoom, I feel like we're actually going to look back and laugh at what we're doing right now. You know, we'll be like, oh, remember the days when, like, when we had cameras on our computers? You don't remember? That was so funny. And we'd have to, like, send each other links, you know, that we'd show up at the same time. Like, I think that we're going to be laughing back at what we're doing right now, you know, in, like, a funny way. Because this is. This is the beginning of the metaverse.

What we're doing right now.

Specifically, Enterprise Metaverse, you know, I think, to a certain extent, personal, but I think that people tend to use Zoom and Google Meet more for enterprise than they do for personal. So enterprise is basically what we're doing right now. It's just a better version of that. It'll allow us to be together in a space and do things together that will, at the very least, give us the feeling like we're there. And, like, I'm showing you something that looks physical to you, as opposed to, like, you know, me running off screen, coming back and showing you something and then like, oh, yeah, let me. Let me see if I can find the file. You know what I mean? Like, that kind of thing is. It's so slow and it's. I see it as archaic. And it's so funny because Zoom and Google Meet are so new, like, as far as, like, people's use of it. And so to call it archaic really goes to show that, like, people like you and me, like, we're in the Metaverse space and we sort of are already seeing the future and we're seeing things. Like, what we're doing right now is being a little bit kind of it's kind of like hitting a screw with a hammer.

Yeah.

But also, you know, the concept of the digital twin, right. Is the concept of mapping out the world, or let's say your factory. Am I getting this right?

Yep.

So you map out your factory, you throw robots in it, you know, and yeah, for that especially, I think it'll be important because in a world where AI, artificial intelligence and robots are going to be more and more a thing and how we deal with what's outside of our own windows, especially regarding enterprise. Right. Because all humans need to do is think our tool is here. And so what the concept of the digital twin and enterprise will allow us to be here and to all of a sudden, I'm in our Hong Kong factory and we're dealing with an issue where the shipping thing isn't being done correctly or something like that. Right. And then all of a sudden I can say, okay, Mark, let's go meet in Vancouver. And so now we're in Vancouver, in the Vancouver office, and they' the same issue and we deal with it. We can just do things so much faster. And I think actually people prefer to work at home, you know, and so with my company, we are entirely work from home. So we operate globally. And almost nobody's in the same like time zone, which can be a little bit of a hurdle. But we're working things out. And I think people do prefer it. It does allow you to schedule times that work for you because we're so global. It's like whether you show up an hour late to work, like, I don't care. Whereas like 10 years ago, if you showed up an hour late to work, that's kind of an issue because we need you. But right now we're building a global workforce that doesn't require that. And I think that those tools are still being built, like, even right now. You know, we find issues with like meeting and at the same time, like, you do still need that, like face to face contact. But yeah, enterprise huge.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And then from an enterprise perspective again, to the final pillar, sort of the government perspective. What are your ideas on governments and smart cities? Do we have a public metaverse square or what do you think?

Yeah, yeah. The first thing that does scare me a little bit is, you know, I think that governments can still create laws by which metaverses operate. So I do worry not too much here in America, actually. I think that America's fairly open and we have a lot of people complaining here, you know, about strict guidelines and whatnot. I believe that good governments will find ways of just making sure that nobody ends up being hurt. You know, I think that that's the important thing, because the whole concept of a metaverse can hurt. You know, there are things that can go wrong there. But I worry in other places, in other countries with authoritarian rule, that the metaverse can be controlled, similar to the Internet, but the ramifications will be so much worse in that instance. So I do worry a little bit about just the concept of the metaverse and the government you've probably heard of. Is it Citi Dao? That's the thing that Vitalik Buterin is creating, Zedao, that he's building in Wyoming. So the idea is they bought a plot of land and they're going to be building this city. I don't know if they're actually going to be building a city, but the whole point is to at the very least build the infrastructure to build a prototype, you know, of a city. And yeah, that's fascinating to me. I believe Wyoming. Wyoming is the first state in the US to allow a dao to register as a company.

So that's pretty cool.

Yeah. So this is why Buterin is doing it there. My guess is that is that other states will follow. But yeah, we'll see. It's kind of like a big experiment. Like what happens when a decentralized organization is responsible for what if somebody dies?

Everything.

Who's responsible? It's an experiment, but I think it's a worthy experiment. I think something will come out of it that will be really interesting.

That is cool. So how important do you think user generated content and creativity is for the metaverse?

Oh yeah, I think that it will define the metaverse. So the way that I sort of see it is that metaverses and communities are one and the same. At the very least that they're going to inform the other. So the metaverse itself might be owned by a company or maybe a government, but it's the community that makes that thing. So the two sort of loop in with each other and they form a circular partnership with each other. And this is why communities are going to define the metaverses and the metaverses are in turn going to define the communities. And as far as user generated content, you can't have communities without user generated content. So whether that's as simple as allowing one to form groups, you know, through which to chat, I mean, that's a very simple form of a user generated content. More advanced user generated contents, of course, is to build an entire City by which a community can exist and do stuff, you know, whatever that community wants to do. Yeah, so, yeah, that's what I think.

And related to that, then, what do you think is the role of NFTs in the metaverse?

Yeah, I think that it's the economy aspect of it. So I think the metaverse could exist without NFTs. I think that Fortnite, for example, is arguably a pre metaverse, I think is the term. It's not a metaverse, but it's a pre metaverse. And they don't use NFTs, they don't use cryptocurrency. So you can do this stuff without. But NFTs give the product like an actual. Like you can trust the product. Yeah, I'm trying to think of the word, but it's hard to trust the company sometimes, especially when certain companies can turn out to be. To not have the users as their primary concern.

Right, yeah.

So if you're a user within a metaverse that's owned by a company that doesn't see you as their priority, then when you purchase their product, how are you going to be sure that they're not going to take it away? You know, you take this example that you're. You brought up with Instagram, you know, when the product there that you're purchasing, you're purchasing it with your time, but you're creating an Instagram account by which you spend time and you curate this product. And to have that taken away from you, to have the company take that away from you, I think that that's something that NFTs will prevent. It gives people trust in a system.

Yeah, I agree. And Jordan linked to the NFTs, you mentioned this. It's sort of the economy. How do we create a rich and vibrant metaverse economy?

I think the use of NFTs is what's going to ultimately define that economy. I mean, we're going in this direction already. Like I say that you don't have to have NFTs to have a metaverse economy, but we're going in this direction. I actually think that the metaverse will benefit from it. And I mean, the whole point of cryptocurrency and a DAO is to create trust in a system by which an economy can exist. So the transparency gives the community something to latch onto to be sure that ultimately the company isn't going to take something away from them that's been given or that they bought, whether it's with their time or their money.

Yeah, I think that the fact that the example of Instagram is just so striking. And that's exactly the reason why we need a decentralized approach to this. Because if the company doesn't like you, they can take it away.

Exactly.

So, and then if you just briefly go to the dark side of the metaverse, what kind of challenges do you see there? What kind of dangers do you. For the metaverse?

I think the biggest danger is companies not seeing their users as the reason why they exist. And I actually, by the way, I am very positive about this. I think that what's been happening in the last 10 years with Facebook, with not just Facebook, but other companies as well, is that the public has spoken and has said, we're not cool with the way, you know, you can call it neoliberalism. You know, we're not cool at this kind of behavior. We want something that we can benefit from and that isn't going to turn around and do us wrong. So I think. I think that the biggest concern of mine, which I'm sure is a concern of everybody's, is companies putting their own profits before the benefits of the users. I think that's the biggest issue. And. But I actually do hold. I do have a positive view on this. The third person I brought in on the company that I'm working on is a ethics person.

Nice.

Because I thought, you know, personally, the way that I sort of see things is that a company operates like a brain. You know, it's like you have all these, like, little neurons and they're firing. And I feel like in one's mind, one always needs a conscience. And so to have an ethics person in our company, I'm actually hoping that other people will see that and be like, oh, that's cool. Like, let's do that. Let's do that too. You know, I know it's become big sort of to have, for example, a diversity officer. You know, that's been something you have been seeing in the last 10 years, I think, in a response to what the public wants. But I think that we can go beyond that and have an ethics officer, because ethics, it's not easy. I think that CEOs, like, we can be like, I'm ethical. Of course I'm ethical. Like, duh. Like, I'm a good person. I think that we all think that. And the point is, is that we need that person to just be, okay, hold on, hold on. I love your idea, but what if we did it this way instead? And that you make from the beginning, you make these decisions that grow your company into an ethical company, and not just something that is. Is there to. I mean, of course it's there to make profit. You know, I think that if a company doesn't make profit, it can't exist. So this is the thing that a company needs, but at the same time, the company should serve the people who are consuming it. So I think that that's what ethics is there for.

So, yeah, I completely agree with that. And so, as a final question, what do you think is the future of the metaverse?

I mean, I see the metaverse as a place where we go and we interact and we do things. And I know that's a very kind of simplistic kind of definition of what it is. It's the gamification of the Internet, because the Internet is a place where we go and we get information. That's how the Internet sort of was born. But I think that the big difference with the metaverse is that we're going to try to do the same thing, but now make it a little bit more entertaining, you know, allow people to exist in a place that they wouldn't be able to exist in real life, but also to facilitate communication and to facilitate innovation and to facilitate all sorts of positive human qualities that. Or to enhance positive human qualities. I think that that's the future of the metaverse. You know, we talk about a dream. It's like walking into a dream. You know, I sort of see the metaverse as it's like the dream of humanity, you know, and that's what that is, I think, is as amorphous as an actual dream. Like, it could literally be 100 years from now. It could be like walking into a dream. And I don't think that's how it'll start, but I could see it going in that direction where there's something symbolic about it. And it's not just like. Because the Internet is so, like, you know, here's my comment and here's. This is how this happens, and it's very interconnected. And I think that we have the opportunity of taking something deeper within us and, you know, putting it out there.

Yeah, that's a great, great ending. Thank you so much, Matthew. I really appreciate your. Your insights. Of course.

Cool.

And that wraps up the conversation with Matthew Brubake. If there's one thing that stands out for me from the conversation, it is how the metaverse will change collaboration as we know it, and that creativity and entertainment will become a lot more important. I couldn't agree more, which is why in my new book, Step into the Metaverse, I discuss in detail how the future of work changes what we do, while the Metaverse will change how we do it. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you will be notified when any of the other interviews will become available. Thank you and see you in the Metaverse.