Turning the Metaverse into a Reality with Chris Matthieu - Step into the Metaverse Podcast: EP08

Good day everyone and welcome to the Step into the Metaverse podcast. My name is Mark Van Reimenam and I'm also known as the Digital Speaker. I'm a future tech strategist and I think about how emerging technologies change organizations and society. This podcast is part of my new book called Step into the how the Immersive Internet Will Unlock a Trillion Dollar Social Economy. The book is available as an ebook, hard copy and audiobook. As part of this book, I did nearly 100 in depth interviews with the stakeholders involved in creating the open Metaverse, the investors, the developers, the artists, the collectors, etc. And I've turned a selection of these interviews into this podcast as I think that these conversations are too valuable to leave them on my computer. In this interview, I interviewed Chris Matthew. Chris is a serial entrepreneur with five emerging tech startup exits to date and he currently focuses on decentralization and Metaverse technologies and strategies. He is an entrepreneur in residence for intel and he's a former Senior Director for MetaGREEP. During the interview we discussed a wide range of Metaverse topics ranging from the future of the Metaverse, what we can expect from VR and AR in the years ahead, the role of communities in the Metaverse, the business models of the Metaverse, and the role of digital twins. Enjoy the conversation.

Maybe you can just tell me a little bit briefly about your background.

Yeah, so my name is Chris Matthew. I've built and sold five emerging tech companies and platform companies to date. My previous one was Computes Inc. It was the decentralized supercomputing platform acquired by Magic Leap. And I worked for Magic Leap for a couple of years, head of product for Magic Leap's Metaverse, the Magicverse, and they laid off a thousand people when the quarantine hit with the pandemic. And since then I've been building xarpanet, which is the XR version of the arpanet. It's really the next generation of the real world Metaverse, if you will, and the spatial web. So that's what I've been doing for the last 18 months.

Wow, that sounds very interesting. I'd love to learn more about HR arpanet, because how far are you ahead with that and what's happening there?

So I've had lots of pivots along the way, but I think it's still maybe five years out before the world's ready for it. But I've made tons of progress like it has VR and ar, so truly XR co presence where VR people can teleport to a lat long and I've got all WebXR browser based technology. So the VR person can teleport to a lat long or like the Mirage in Las Vegas or the Louvre in Paris or whatever. And it creates a digital twin of the real world in VR using OpenStreetMaps for building streets and trees, et cetera. So it's kind of a lo fi digital twin of the real world. And it has an XR cloud, meaning that you can pin spatial anchors and digital content to lat longs. And if you've teleported in VR, you can see like the dragon flying above the lat long marker. But then on the AR side, if you are happen to be in front of the Louvre for instance, and you've got a phone or a tablet or maybe your Apple glasses or your magic leap glasses, you can see that dragon flying on that pin location in the real world. And, and one more thing, you can see the VR person as an avatar that teleported to that lat long and they see you as an avatar in VR. So it's truly a persistent XR experience, co presence of the real world in AR and VR.

Wow, that's insane.

XRPonet was used as one of the hackathon platforms in the recent AWE conference that was just held. So it's legit. There's a whole hour video on how to get started as a developer. But I've also recently been working on like 2D and 3D metaverses, like low code, no code metaverse platforms where you can just go to Sketchfab, grab a 3D model of like a venue space or something. And with like creating a metaverse JSON file, you're in it like you've got a little bubble video avatar that you know can move around in 3D into this world. And you know, you can just put that right onto your existing website or share it with your friends and colleagues and you've got your own metaverse, like on the fly.

So wow, man, you're building some crazy stuff.

Yeah, yeah, I might be a little crazy myself.

Well, that's good. Crazy is good. You know what is the metaverse according to you?

I think it's simply put, it's the Internet transforming from 2D websites to 3D web spaces.

Okay, it's very simple, which is good. What are some of the characteristics of that metaverse?

So today it's mostly VR. Like today it's mostly like mobile desktop and maybe some Oculus mixed in of a VR virtual world. Tomorrow it will blend the real World and architecture all as a big single metaverse. And we have a major problem that's natural for the phase of the metaverse that we're in, where it's a mega Corp race, you know, to build their own metaverse. So we have metaverses being built right now by all the major players and not much discussion on interlinking any of these worlds. So that'll be interesting to see it play out.

Yeah, but, but then. So if you want to create an open metaverse, I guess this interoperability is key.

Yep. And I think we'll get into questions like that too. But I've got a bunch of blog posts about things you need. Like it probably needs to be a web based platform just so that runs on any device. It probably needs an open avatar system, kind of like Gravatar, remember Gravatar, back in the web 2.0 days. It needs like a common avatar protocol, if you will. It'll need to use like WebRTC for communication, something open. It'll need like WebXR protocols for web to be immersive, it will probably need a currency that's not fiat, maybe a crypto currency and some type of inventory system. Like If I'm buying NFTs or wearables for my avatars, we'll need to be able to store access and allow that avatar and those inventories to move across worlds.

But that's a massive challenge and for an open metaverse because we have of course meta creating their own platform. We have Microsoft creating their own platform. We have EPIC trying to build, they say, an open platform. We have decentraland we have decent box trying to be more open. You know, for one, how are we going to do this? And two, you know, we have 2.0 is billions of websites. We'll get probably billions of metaverse spaces as I call them. How are we going to organize this?

Yeah, so I listened to an interview with Mark Zuckerberg and he was saying all the right things, you know that, like that he wanted it to be open and some open protocols and interop. But you know, we'll see what comes of that because it is a race and there is no incentive for those mega corps to lose their traffic to another world. Right. You know, they, they want those walled gardens and those customers. I wrote a blog post recently on this that the metaverse already exists. You know, the v1o the metaverse already exists as the web. So WebXR, WebRT, all of those protocols are there. And like I've been building metaverses IO on top of web based technologies to just prove a point. And like we do today, when you go from website to website, you should be able to teleport verse to verse with a link, you know. And I don't think it's going to be something simple and organized like W3C being involved, you know, to help pave the way. I think there's going to be a lot of disruption, there's going to be a lot of mega carps, you know, making a ton of progress. You know, they're hiring tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of experts, you know, so they're monopolizing the expert resources in the world. But there's so many open source engagements like you mentioned, Decentraland, Crypto Voxels, webiverse, there's tons of open source projects that I think are making some headway and I think that as market share, as we start seeing market share gravitate to those platforms, I think they will be the first adopters to the Interop. Like they will be okay with forming alliances that lets maybe we can go from Metaverses, what I'm building into crypto Voxels into Decentraland. And then I think over time customers will expect that and they'll, they'll say well, I'm not going to go build my company in Horizon. If a click of a button I can be deplatformed or shut down like we're seeing now with websites.

Yeah, that makes total sense. I think in the end I hope you know that the decentralized version will win obviously because I think that's just better for the world. And yes, Zuckerberg says all the right things, but I don't trust Zuckerberg as a single bit.

So I saw a 50,000 vote thing on LinkedIn just yesterday that said 90% of the tech community does not trust him. So that just is what it is, just a random vote on LinkedIn.

So if we look at how this metaverse is going to be so big and you have millions of spaces, how are we going to find what we want? Because there is no Google in the metaverse yet. It's a good business opportunity probably, but there is none. And Google might probably take that. But how are we going to organize it?

I think two things I think one, you will see a lot of word of mouth of popular places to be just like in the real world. You hear of some nightclub that's cool and swanky and then all of your friends want to start hanging out there. I think that'll be the norm. And that's that's already happening in like VR chat and you know, other platforms themselves. 2. I think the bigger vision of the metaverse is beyond just these virtual worlds. I think there is an opportunity to have the real world metaverse, so to speak, where you've got real lat longs. Kind of like what I was building with xrpanet, where you've got real lat longs that you can teleport virtually to or in person virtual with ar, you know, have that co presence and that experience in the real world. So in that scenario you still would have all the maps and Google and everything working, but you could blend it almost like a multiverse where you could have filters or layers on top of that that go into different verses or skins on top of the real world. So there's lots of ways to slice and dice that.

I think that would be pretty cool. So you walk at, I don't know, at Coliseum and then you add a layer of thousands of years ago and then all of a sudden you are in the Roman Empire.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I saw someone experimenting with some, some real time overlays where they could take people and convert them to robots or maybe gladiators. So as someone's walking, you know, down by there and in real time, it's like overlaying gladiator. It's blocking them out of your view and replacing them with gladiators walking around. So maybe cars could be the chariots, you know, like you're like all around you.

That could also be very problematic for society, what you just mentioned, because I could block certain races, I can block certain.

No.

And then all of a sudden I have only white people in my view and yeah, that could be very problematic. Yep.

And I was even thinking like advertisements and billboards, like, you know, you could block all the advertisements and someone could almost hijack that and put their own advertisements on the real world billboards, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Also everything can be hacked and certainly also in the metaverse. So. Wow, I didn't even think about that one.

But you know, there was a lot of discussion we had back in the Magic League days about like, could you maybe hack the street light so the street light would look green when it was actually red and someone could walk in the oncoming traffic. Like, you're right, there's. It's problematic all across the board and everyone's just trying to figure this stuff out right now.

Yeah, I guess so. So if we are looking at, you know, the word of mouth as you just mentioned, that would indicate that communities are very important in the metaverse. How do you think communities will exist or grow within the metaverse?

I think it'll be a lot like it is today, but even more niche because I think you'll be able to, like, with the web, the original version of the web, it was all pretty much decentralized to begin with. Until DNS came along. Everyone had like little domain files. It was fairly anonymous, you know. Now it's like a lot of identity centric with your Facebook logins and your Twitter logins. But I think that we will come full circle and get back to decentralized and anonymity in the metaverse as well. And I think it'll be lots of layers. So I might wear a hat that says, hey, I'm Chris, I work for IBM, for instance, during the day. At night, I might be able to put my hat on, my family hat, you know, and I'm Chris with my family. I might be able to put another hat on Chris with my hobbies, my motorcycles, my bicycles, my whatever. And then I might better take all the hats off and just say I'm, I'm, you know, my hacker name or whatever. And you can go into any type of niche world, you know, you want with or without your identity attached. So I think for people with, especially people with, like, public anxiety problems or. I mean, there's a freedom to this, you know, like, there is a freedom to being able to communicate with people on your own terms in your own, you know, kind of virtual world. And we were talking the other day about shrinks, like psychiatrists, like, if they didn't have your identity or if they couldn't see you, if they just saw you as an avatar, you might have a lot more people open up to speak with shrinks in the virtual world as opposed to going in with a full confession, you know, face to face. I don't know.

Yeah, makes sense. Didn't even think about that. That's an interesting perspective. So obviously you are working on XR and therefore also VR and ar. So what can we expect in the coming decades when it comes to these technologies?

Everything's getting lighter, more powerful, longer lasting. Like. Like magically two devices, they've already started demoing them out. They're twice as powerful, twice the field of view and half the weight. So we're going to see these things get smaller and smaller. We'll see the Apple glasses eventually, you know, start shipping. And, you know, if you look at the way Apple strategy is, you know, These are the AirPods. When you're not using them. They go in here to recharge. You can imagine the glasses are going to have the same form factor. They'll have a little glass case that'll recharge them. So they'll get lighter and lighter. And we're starting to see spectacles from Snap and others that are getting lighter more looking like a pair of eyeglasses. But at some point, they're going to be just so normal and ubiquitous that you'll see a crowd of people looking up at the sky. If you're not wearing your AR glasses, you won't know what they're looking at. You'll be left out. You know, fear of missing out. FOMO will trigger. Which means that we need a single Metaverse platform to all see that same dragon flying in the sky instead of Facebook's Dragon versus Microsoft Dragon. Or Microsoft may not even have the dragon flying, you know, so like it will become part of reality. And if you don't have the wearable to participate, you will be left out of the real world. So it will be new reality.

But that will create a massive divide in society between the haves and the have nots.

Huge, Huge. And I can only suspect that price is going to continue. Form factors can continue to drive down. So you'll see the first world countries will get these first. And over the years you'll see them trickle into third world countries and hopefully power and Internet is solved globally by then. You're right. There's a lot of things that need to be worked out with all this because it's so cool and exciting, but it does create a digital dividend.

Yeah.

Like the web did too. Remember? Like the web did too. People didn't have computers.

I completely agree. And the more I read and the more interviews I do, the cooler I think the Metaverse is going to be, but also the more problematic it's going to be. And I see tons of problems when it comes to the metaverse, and I'll cover them in my, in the book, obviously. But I think it's important to tell people and to be aware of that. But yes, the metaverse is cool. But yes, the metaverse is also very dangerous.

Yeah. To extend kind of what you're saying too that I think plays a part of the role is that if you just took the VR, for instance, the VR kind of version of the metaverse, virtual worlds, there's going to be so many jobs. Like today the jobs are building that the engineers building the metaverse. But when the metaverse starts rolling out and there Are already some, like Roblox and others that I saw an ad last week where Nike was building a metaverse inside of Roblox. So I'm writing a blog post about inception of metaverses, metaverses within metaverse. But people will be working in the metaverse. Like, just like you would either used to go into your office, now you quarantine you, you virtually commute, you know, your hybrid work with other companies. You'll be working inside of the metaverse, you know, selling products, doing consulting. You know, if you're the geek squad, you know, from Best Buy, you'll be working in Best Buy's metaverse, selling computers in the 3D Best Buy. So all the brands are common, like the Disney of the world, Starbucks, Walmart, like all the big brands are going to be moving into the metaverse because that's where the consumers are going. So they're going to be staffing up people all working in the metaverse. So people are going to need to be able to, whether it's. If it's not VR glasses, it'll be mobile devices, them scrolling around to help people, or laptops or desktops. So it'll start there and it'll eventually work its point to be fully immersive as those technologies become immersive.

Yeah, that makes sense. But of course, if we have the Best Buy and the Disney in the metaverse, that also changes the business models that we have in the world. And you already see play to earn, which is, I think, a very interesting business model. What kind of business models do you foresee for the Metaverse?

What we used to talk about a lot at Magic Leap was the infinite economy. So imagine Disney, you know, Disney can only. Oh, and especially when they were closed down, they had no revenue. But Disney can only get so many people through their gates per day. Imagine if you could teleport. Imagine if you had 15 minutes between meetings, okay? But you could teleport to Disneyland or Disney World and like, see the latest attraction they have and pay for it. You know, maybe pay 10 bucks to go into the New age world or the Indiana Jones exhibit or something new and pay for it. Virtually. You just opened up their physical footprint to global teleportation, infinite economy. Because not only do they pay to get the ticket, but they pay for. They buy merchandise while they're inside of there. You know, like NFTs. We talk about NFTs as really just being crypto art. It's an asset, it's an object. So an NFT could be a ticket to get in an NFT could be a wearable Disneyland shirt for your avatar. It could be crypto art, it could be density itself. Like imagine Disney will could 10x their numbers with this new infinite economy around the Disneyverse.

That's very interesting. And Walt Disney, of course, having this magical feeling. They are perfectly positioned to do just that if they have the mindset, which they probably will have. Wow, that's pretty cool.

Oh yeah. My Inception blog post today I'm working on, I was just thinking, well, it makes total sense for Nike not to create their own metaverse, but to not only join Roblox, but, you know, join Horizon, join Decentraland like wherever their customers are. Like, go and create a. Buy some parcel and create a space and get your brand in all of the metaverses. Like for them, it's actually a good thing that there isn't one metaverse right now. They can go into all of them as they pop up in popularity and tap into all of those existing customers. It's the Wayne Gretzky quote, I skate where the puck is going, not where it's at. So they're able to go where their customers are going in every one of those metaverses and sell more product because it's going to be more traffic than what's going to nike.com.

Yeah, for sure. This, of course, is very much from the consumer perspective, and I think it's clear to see that that can go infinite. But what about the enterprise metaverse? What do you see happening there? How big will the enterprise metaverse be and how will it change collaboration?

I see how Microsoft is trying to differentiate itself from Facebook and I see how Magic Leap tried to do the pivot from consumer to enterprise. But at the end of the day, I don't believe there's a difference. I don't believe there's an enterprise versus a consumer. I think that we will still have meetings, if you will, inside of the metaverse, whether they're meetings with our family and friends or meetings with our colleagues where we actually have to share a pie chart instead of a photo of our dog. So I think all of the technology will be the same. I think it's just the early stages, companies trying to position themselves into different markets for market share. In the real world, you'll still be able to walk in and look at a machine, just like you would look at the coffee barista and select your coffee instead of selecting the machines like horsepower switch to flip.

But in that case, if we have digital twins of machines, I think that that can have A big impact for enterprises. What do you think about that Digital twins and what are some of the characteristics of digital twins?

Yeah, so that's happening right now. Like, so in order to do like AR cloud type activity, you need a digital twin. So you need just pinning something to lat long isn't good enough because lat longs and GPS on mobile devices is not very accurate and there's a drift associated with it. So you need to be able to pin like, say like a moniker, like a digital sign above the entryway of a place. It needs to understand like not only the lat long, but the altitude and the angle and like where to affix that digital content in the real world. And the only way to do that is with the digital twin. So the whole world needs to be mapped with the digital twin. So and that's happening like Tesla's already doing some mapping with their cameras as their cars drive the streets at the awe. The CEO of Niantic admitted that the Pokemon game is doing digital twins. So as you're chasing the Pokemon, it's capturing like things in the camera, like where you're looking and trying to map the world. Facebook said they're working on live maps. That's going to be their digital twin. They're working on. Google's doing it with their Waymo. So there's a ton of efforts already underway to map the world. And you know, to our conversation earlier, they're going to start in first world countries where the tech and those companies are, but they'll get through the rest of the world. And that digital twin is the foundation. I started this answer with the AR cloud. That's because that's what everyone calls it, but it really should be the XR cloud because it's how you pin content on the digital twin, not only for augmented reality users in the real world, but for VR users who are teleporting into those digital twins of the real world. So it's getting back to that real world metaverse scenario where that digital twin, there's no other way to do that pinning without it. Wow. I don't know if you remember the layers image that magic leap, it's all over Google. If you look at layers of the metaverse, if you Google that in that diagram, they showed the physical world as the bottom layer, they show the digital twin as the next layer. And then everything on top of that are like filters of things you can build. Like on top of the digital twin of the real world. It could be like an entertainment layer. It could be Like a communications and electrical layer for like city officials. But you get to the point where once it even hits the entertainment layer, that could have millions of layers or filters on top of that. Like, you know how you and I, you're on Twitter, right?

Yeah.

So we follow people on Twitter that we like looking at their content. So what'll happen is in this real world, you'll be able to follow people that's producing user generated content in the real world. So I'll see. Okay, there's Mark's graffiti he just put on the wall in a place in Sydney that I'm having to walk by or whatever. But I won't see someone else's graffiti with profanity on it because I'm not following them. Like, there'll be all of this stuff. We're going to rebuild the Instagrams of the real world and the Twitters of the real world. And to your point earlier about the Google search engine of the real world, we'll build all of that in the real world all over again.

That sort of gives an exponential functionality to the infinite economy.

Yeah, it does.

Fascinating. That's amazing. Clearly, there are some requirements why we need digital twins for the metaverse. Can you go a little bit deeper? What are some of the other benefits that digital twins, not only for the easy approaches such as the traffic light or city light, but also the very complex machines, factories, entire cities. Can you dive a bit deeper in that?

Yeah. So the digital twin is really a fundamental part of building all of this XR technology on top of the real world. And it goes beyond xr. Like there's a book called the Spatial Web by Rene. What's Rene's Gabriel Rene. He and a colleague did a great job writing a book about the spatial web and they talk about all of the IoT that's going to be integrated into the digital twin. So you'll be able to eventually, you know, when you've got your AR glasses on, you'll be able to say, like, I'm driving my car. You'll be able to see where the empty parking lots are because the IoT sensors on those parking spaces are going to be connected to the digital twin. And I'll be looking at real time IoT data connected to the digital twin in the real world through my AR glasses. And not only AR glasses, but even if I'm teleported there in VR, I might still for some reason want to see where my friends are or the parking spaces and help direct them into a space because I telecommuted into the digital twin. So it goes beyond IoT devices. It's also robotic self driving cars. Delivery drones are going to need to know where the traffic signals are so they don't bump into them as they fly to your front doorstep. All of these things, including people, are all going to have to share the same communication protocols to know how to get to each other or how to communicate with users. So Magic Leak was building mica. It's public, it's in. If you Google Micah, she was an artificial human. And there's a lot of companies that are doing this now. But we're going to get to the point where I'll be able to have a conversation with an artificial human or O2D2, my favorite robot or whatever. And the robot or the artificial human will also be able to talk to the IoT devices. So like we'll all be able to talk to one another regardless of if they're real or not.

It's a bit like the receptionist from Altered Carbon. The AI hotel.

Yeah, exactly. And that's, I forgot to mention AI, but that's integral, as you just mentioned, part of this whole scenario. In fact, it's all the emerging technologies converging at the same time. AI IoT 5G 6G blockchain.

So related to that, we are at the moment the start of the metaverse. How will the metaverse look like at the end of the decade?

That's a great question. I think we'll see metaverses. I think there's going to be lots and lots and lots of metaverses. I think for the next five years they'll mostly be VR virtual world metaverses. That seems to be what most of the big companies are talking about. But I think by the end of the decade they will start transitioning to real world metaverses. But it's going to take the glasses to get down to where people wear them all day long to do that. And I think it'll layer upon itself. So as we're building all these VR virtual worlds, that technology will soon evolve into digital twin virtual worlds of VR that then will converge with AR. So I think five years out it'll all be virtual metaverses. 10 years out, it'll be a combination of the VR and the AR metaverse. Hopefully in 10 years we're back down to one metaverse. I don't know.

That would be great. So what are some of the, and we already talked about it briefly, what are some of the ethical aspects of the metaverse that we need to think about?

So, yeah, so there's, there's tons of considerations. The biggest one in my opinion at the moment is around eye tracking. There's a few really big ones. So, like in VR. Well, actually AR too, like Magic Leap had cameras that tracked your pupils. The Oculus does too. So they know where you're looking. They in fact know what you're looking.

At because all of the head mounted displays, AR and VR look at your eyes, your pupils of your eyes. They know where you're looking and at what because they're painting the pixels on your eyes. So they know what you're looking at when you looked at it. And they also can tell your emotions when you look at something. So they can tell that maybe that brand new Tesla vehicle in the virtual world got you excited because you reacted in such a way of excitement when you saw it. So now it's a whole nother level of marketing that they can do on you beyond what you call click or how fast you scroll the page. Now they're tracking everything you look at and your emotions of when you look at it, how you reacted. The other thing is, especially ar, is that the cameras are on the fronts of the, on the glasses. I guess Oculus has cameras on the fronts too. They're able to do a digital twin of their own of private spaces. So now, like, who owns the rights of my home, the digital twin of my home. And should we trust, you know, those companies with that data too? I don't, you know, so now they know what my home, private spaces, but they also know my personal level of engagement at the content I'm looking at in my private spaces.

Yeah, that's a privacy nightmare, especially if it ends up in the hands of Mr. Zuckerberg. I think, to me is one of the biggest dangers. You know, also if you have the glasses and then they record everything and it's a very, very challenging area you're facing here.

I think that that privacy is definitely, and this is public knowledge too. At Magic Leap, we talked about something called your Lifestream, where you think about it as you wear these glasses over a decade. It potentially could be recording life moments, you know, like your kids, first steps or. I mean, this gets into black mirror shit, right?

Yes, definitely.

Like it could be recording not only what you saw, but how you reacted, you know, when you saw things. And you might want to go back in time and replay those. Like I might want to see the first time I met my wife, my reactions or my first time I saw my kid walk, you know, but there's A whole lot of other things that, you know, if that got into the wrong hands, like a hacker, you know, which it will.

Yeah.

You might not want them to see your PIN number as you're getting money out of the atm or you might not want.

Yeah. By this time, you just do it by your brain telepathy. Yeah.

The neural link. We'll have the neural link fully in place by then.

Yeah.

So I think privacy is a huge one. I think the real world metaverse is definitely something that's overlooked. So I'm really keen on the real world metaverse. And when I talk about that, I mainly think of VR and AR co presence in the real world, teleporting to digital twins and interacting together. Like inviting a friend over to my house and seeing my friend sit on my sofa and he's in VR and I'm in AR and we're having a conversation like he's a true guest in my home. I think that's the real world metaverse. But then I would definitely encourage you to meet with Gabriel Rene, because I think the spatial web is like another evolution of the metaverse, like of the real world metaverse, where the context of the spatial web is that the web has been trapped in screens since the beginning, 15, 20 years. Has been trapped in screens. Well, what happens when it's freed from screens? Like, you'll have the Instagram of the real world or the Twitter of the real world. We'll have to reinvent all of these real world web. I hate to call them apps, but there'll be real world web experiences in the world, like in the real world. So it'd be like the real world web.

The real world web. That's a cool one.

Yeah.

That's another evolution of all the metaverse. And that'll overlay right into the metaverse's storyline, you know?

Yeah, I like that. All right, well, thank you so much, Chris. You have a ton of knowledge that's in there and it's fascinating to talk to you. I think we could definitely talk for hours and I really appreciate that and thank you.

Yep, I'd love to help, man. You're doing something good and the world needs it.

And that wraps up the conversation with Chris. Matthew, if there's one thing that stands out for me from the conversation, it is how much work there still is to be done before we have a fully operational metaverse. The future of the metaverse is very exciting, but also still quite far away, which is why in my new book, Step into the Metaverse, I offer clear steps. How to Build the Metaverse if you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you will be notified when any of the other interviews will become available. Thank you and see you in the Metaverse.