Why mealtimes feel so hard (and what’s really going on underneath) with Rachel Zabel

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Hello and welcome to Wine with Weda, the podcast that is dedicated to engaging with health professionals and caregivers in meaningful discussions. I'm your host, Rita Shamoon, or as my clients call me, Weeda. I am a pediatric speech pathologist and I am so excited to have you here. Each week we deep dive into connecting you with caregivers and healthcare professionals, sharing their insights, stories and key takeaways to help you with your child's diagnosis and your journey. Whether you are a parent, healthcare professional, a lifetime learner, or simply a wine enthusiast, you're in the right place. So let's sit back and relax and enjoy today's episode.

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Welcome to a wonderful episode of Wine with Weeta. Today I'm bringing you a hot topic that I have in my therapy room in my mother's group with my husband, the concept of feeding and pediatrics. It is a topic that I discuss with all my clients because sometimes feeding our kids is just so, so hard that sometimes we say, surrender, do what you want, I just need you to eat. And I thought today I didn't want to go down the speech pathology path because speeches yesterday. Though we do work with feeding, it's always nice to have another allied health professional who specializes in pediatric feeding from a different lens, particularly neurodiverse kids. So today I have the most beautiful woman named Rachel Zabel. She is a pediatric dietitian and a feeding therapist from Florida. Fun, family and food. Welcome to Wine with Weeda.

Rachel, thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here.

I cannot wait to pick your brain because with my caseload, all the parents ask me, how can I get my child to eat more vegetables. My child's on a beige diet. All I do is put my child in a screen just to make them eat. And I, I'm actually quite speechless because I'm like, I don't know what to do. My course didn't teach me that. So, Rachel, please tell the listeners about your expertise, who you are, and what brings you to Wine with Ouida today.

Excellent. Well, my background story is kind of two parallel stories almost. So I'm a mum to four beautiful kids and it was about probably seven years ago with my third child that my heart kind of whispered, this is not normal. Like the struggles she was having, the daily battles, behaviors that we just, we hadn't seen in any of the other kids and just didn't seem to make sense and we just didn't know what to do. Things like she would scream. I remember the most blood curdling Scream that. I'm surprised the neighbors didn't call the police one night because she had to brush her teeth, you know, and there was no amount of discussing motivating, bribing, setting timers, trying to help her. We'd bought every version of toothpaste, every version of toothbrush, like, and now I look back and I know, well, it was a sensory thing. But, yeah, yeah, back then I just had zero concept of neurodiversity, of sensory differences, of, like, how autism can show up in girls especially. I didn't know really anything much about. About autism at all. But especially, you know, the image you have in your head is like Rain man. Or the image of ADHD is like a hyperactive boy. And that's never connected the dots. And even my mum, who's a school teacher and principal and, like, it's funny how seven years we were struggling and she was, like, looking after her and we'd always think, what is going on? And, yeah, it took until she was that older. And then I think a light bulb clicked in my mum's brain to go, ah. And she googled ADHD in girls and she showed it to me and like, tick, tick, tick, tick. So we went down, you know, we got the diagnosis and ADHD and autism, definitely a PDA profile with her autism. And that, that did explain a lot, but it still felt like we were drowning. Like, it took a long time from that diagnosis, like, to find the right team who actually understood her behaviors. Yeah, that was a long journey.

How old was your daughter at the time?

She was about six or seven. She was in grade one, grade one or grade two when it got to the point where we're like, pediatrician, we need to. We need to look at this. Yeah.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Do you feel through your own personal experience, that's where you became more specialized in pediatric feeding and neurodiverse kids, because of your own lived experience, you could relate to parents better.

Definitely. And just we were. Obviously, when we got that diagnosis, we were sort of thrust into the world of neurodiversity and had to try and figure it out. And it took a couple years, but I remember we finally found a counselor who really helped my child. It was like she just knew her from the day she was born because she just got her and she helped us so much and she put us on to a podcast called the Baffling Behavior Show. Robin Goble. Yeah, if you've heard of that one.

Heard of that name.

And I was like, out. My nervous system was Fried. It was so hard and I was driving. I work for Blue Care part time, so aged care and supporting adults in their homes. And I remember listening to that podcast and I was just weeping because yeah, finally a professional who actually gets it and actually understands and validates and doesn't, you know, so long of being dismissed and gaslighted and telling people, but no one understood. So that was like a turning point. And that she really deep dives into the nervous system and how to actually understand what's going on and looking beneath the behaviors that you see. And that really helped. And I, I did see other like SOS and other trainings, responsive feeding and stuff for the, for the feeding side of it. Yeah, because I wanted to help families like mine.

I love that. And I guess what you really raised there is the nervous system. And as an allied health professional, you really need to have that extra professional development and most importantly, a range of clinical experiences through your clients to understand the how. Now, easy for me to go do the SOS feeding course or the Babylon Talk feeding course, but until you have those clients and really see them on a weekly basis, you can tackle it. I want to ask a question. The concept of fussy eating is so broad.

Yes.

That can range from a child being on a beige white only diet to a child only eating chicken to a child only having chicken nuggets. How can you define in layman's term, what does fussy eating mean?

Firstly, the term itself is probably not. It's. It's one I try and avoid using if I can, but I know that's what kind of most people relate to and what parents would say is my kid's so fussy or they're so picky. I suppose looking at it like this, see, there's going to be a bit of a, a spectrum, a lot to say, you know, like we all have food preferences and foods we like and don't like and ways of eating ourselves. With kids, you know, we can think about it from the point of view of, you know, most kids go through a fussy stage around two, that sort of neophobia where they're scared of new foods and they're starting to go through the I can do it autonomy phase. And you know, there is, for almost every child will go through a bit of a stage of what you could call fussy or, you know, from when they might have eaten everything when they were little, arranged around two or three, they might kind of drop off. I suppose it's when you are getting to the point of they're Dropping foods. They're very distressed about foods. It's really impacting their functioning. They get very anxious. New foods might result in a complete meltdown. One thing different, and they lose the food forever. You know, it's that, you know, you can sort of look at it that spectrum from kind of normal, typical developmentally normal, picky eating towards more restrictive. And then you can get to where we would classify it as something like ARFID or a pediatric feeding disorder. And it's kind of. You can think about it according to sort of how many foods your child has. So if they have less than 10 or 15 foods, you know, that's kind of getting into that range of ARFID or pediatric feeding disorder. Really, those sort of factors. I said of how. How does it impact their functioning? How does it impact the family?

Yeah, yeah, you say, how does it impact their function? So being quite particular with certain types of foods and the behaviors they display with that, what characteristic compares look out for.

I always talk about recommend something that, like, I sort of call it nervous system mapping. So behaviors, obviously the behaviors that you see are only a reflection of, you know, that's the way the kids communicate. So that's a reflection of what's going on underneath. So if you're seeing things like signs of dysregulation, like just. I call it tiger brain, which is fight or flight. So they might be just more heightened on the more. You could say aggressive side. And they might throw. On the extreme end, they might throw the food, they might run away from the table. They get quite worked up, and you can see that dysregulation. They're yelling. Or some kids go to what I would call turtle mode. Shut down, overwhelm, so freeze porn type mode. And they'll sit and they'll delay. They'll try every strategy to pretend it's not there. They'll go into that shutdown mode. Two bites and I'm done. You know, you can sort of by looking at the behaviors that you see at meal time, you can kind of get an idea of what's actually going on for the child. Sure, yeah.

Just from even just this discussion, it's so specific to every client and the behavior that they're exhibiting. So for anyone listening to this podcast, this is obviously a way for you to understand it better, but definitely seek the additional support because the advice is very different. And I feel the conversation today is specific for neurodiverse kids, particularly ASD kids. I'm really curious with the whole shutdown bit. How does a child transition from eating most foods and then overnight only drinking their milk or only having their food preferences.

How.

Why does that happen? Like, from your experience, what do you notice?

It's often not necessarily overnight, but certainly it can be a. If it's overnight, literally, I think has there been some traumatic event? You know, something's gone on? Often it's kind of gradual. It might feel like overnight, but it's like. Might be over a period of several months or something. It might be due to, you know, it's hard to diagnose.

Yeah.

You know, when they're little and maybe it was, you know, as kids grow, their nervous and sensory system might become more sensitive over time as they grow for a neurodivergent child and start getting into kindy and prep and school and the demands of life and functioning, daily functioning can just get harder and harder and that can push them out of their window of tolerance for food. By the end of the day, they're done and it's like, I cannot do food, especially not new foods at all. Yeah, that's probably you.

You've mentioned the word nervous system a few times there. Do you feel you need to work in collaboration with occupational therapists or even Cairos to like a whole multidisciplinary approach to meet the need or feeding needs for a child? Or is it one sole allied health member that can achieve it?

Definitely. A team is awesome. Where people can access. Obviously that can be. The challenge is the wait lists and you find the right therapist and then they leave and then you start again and just funding and can be a challenge. So ideally, yes, a team is amazing when you can achieve it can really.

Yeah.

Really get great results. Yeah, yeah.

So important that it's not. As one allied health professional, and I think we did mention this in our previous chat, that when a parent sees a pediatrician, there's so much more than just a speech and OT that dietitians also need to be included and also maybe even physios. And it's about respecting every allied health professional to understand we're meeting a child's need holistically. Because I can't do it all as a speechy. Nor can you do it all as a dietitian.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm more curious now about autism and what challenges do autistic kids face when it comes to feeding.

There can be lots. Probably the. The nervous and the sensory system is the most common ones that I'm coming across where I suppose if you think about autism being like a neurodevelopmental kind of difference where it's like that nervous and sensory systems are more sensitive, more vulnerable to stresses or to that sensory input. They feel that a lot more deeply and notice it. So. And feeding, of course, is highly sensory with the smells and the touches, you know that the feel and how feeling in your mouth and all that sort of stuff. So definitely sensory and nervous system also probably like if you think about the autistic brain likes to work in, with repetition and in patterns and like they have a strong preference for sameness in a lot of things. In routines and changes in any daily routine can be hard and feeding can be the same. So they often feel a lot more regulated when things are very predictable and the same all the time. Yeah, they might have had the gut sort of picture can be a big part too. Like the percentage of autistic kids with, with gut symptoms, whether it's sort of constipation or reflux or something like that, is really, really high. And that obviously picture as well.

I love that word, gut, gut health. And I feel like so many autistic kids have gut concerns. Can we dig deep into a bit more into that? What does gut health mean and why the link to autistic kids?

Yeah, it's fascinating. Really fascinating for me and part of, I suppose before I started working with kids, I worked a lot in gut health too, in adults as well. So it's always been just a general interest of mine. But you know, when you start looking at, you know, from. As a research, bit of a research nerd and PhD background, you know, I just found all of the papers so fascinating and the impact on things like IBS and other conditions and the link with gut health there. And then combining that with so many clients that I see, and most of them, it's constipation is the issue that they really, really struggle with. And so, and yeah, that's just, it's just fascinating, you know. And I'm always trying to look at how can I help my clients more and just the research on, you know, that autistic kids tend to have a different microbiome, so a different kind of gut bacteria, patterns of gut bacteria than neurotypical kids. And deep diving into how can we help these kids when their diets are restrictive, they're getting symptoms and, you know, what can we do?

Yeah, yeah. Four of my patients just came to my mind right now because they're on the spectrum and constipation is a big thing in, in their lives right now. And they're seeing a pediatrician to give them A specific antibiotic to help them soften the bowels.

Yes.

And you know, so forth.

Yeah.

From your experience, if a parent was listening to this now, what's one piece of advice that you could give them to help support their child's gut right now if they're experiencing constipation.

Constipation. I often think of the three things as in terms of nutrition kind of strategies as the dietitian like fiber, fluid and movement. So often kids, autistic kids also struggle with hydration, which can kind of maybe be something you don't always think about, but that. That can help with. With the tummy. Food first is always the preference. If your child doesn't eat vegetables like that can still get the fiber from fruit and a lot of the nutrients are a crossover. So if they're at least having some fruit every day, try not to stress then too much about the vegetable piece because they will be getting the fiber from the fruit and maybe you could increase this. Don't be afraid to give them more fruit then if they're not eating the vegetables. So they're getting the fibre. Looking at the fluid, looking at their movement, the not necessarily nutrition lens, but just the whole bowel behaviors and stuff like other withholding and it can all link in with the neurodiversity that often they.

Yeah.

At school and looking at that bigger picture as well. And often the. The range of fibre is not necessarily accessible and in that case there are some really helpful, colorless, odourless, tasteless fibre supplement options and quite often I recommend them.

Yeah. Yeah.

For the gut, of course.

Of course. You mentioned previously about autistic kids and how they might have a preference with the way things are colored, the way things taste, texture like from a sensory profile. The first thing that came to my head was the beige white diet that a lot of kids eat. The rice, the. The cheese, the bread, the chicken nuggets, because they're quite similar. Is that purely because of that sensory preference? Is that why children have that beige diet?

That can be a really big part of it. Those foods are predictable. They're also easy to chew. So a lot of these kids, because they can have muscle tone issues and that extends to the muscles, you know, in the hands for coordination of feeding and chewing and so swallowing and managing the food. So often those easier to chew, softer foods, that's what they'll gravitate towards. They're very predictable, always the same. Hopefully you can keep getting the same brand. It's a problem when the brand changes. Doesn't it is, yeah, yeah. The texture is often just the same. So that really just I think helps. The sensory sameness can really help to help them feel more regulated then in their nervous system. Yeah, yeah.

If a parent's listening now and they're just cooking spaghetti every day or boiled rice every day and they just want their child to have some sort of protein or a vegetable, what advice could you give them? Just to slightly introduce that extra food item to a child's diet.

Yeah. Firstly, I think I suppose as much, of course parents always are coming with that desperate like hope. Yeah. Get some meat in to see some green on their plate to like and you know, but we can't start with, I suppose reframing the goals or the expectation that we can't start with eating because eating's the last step. And until we can get set up the meal times where the child's regulated and calm and like in their window of tolerance, what I call the owl brain, like, you know, you don't want to be forcing at the eating step when that we need to build skills and regulation before that. In terms of meal times, I would say I often suggest family style stuff service. Have you. Is that to you if I say that?

Tell me what's family styled service?

Yes, yes. So all the foods that are available are kind of laid out in the middle of the table or at a serving counter and everyone can choose what, how, what they'd like to eat. So parents are in charge of deciding what's what food is available at that meal time.

Like a buffet?

Like a buffet, yes. And the kids are in charge of.

Deciding the casino buffet.

So instead of pre plating like allowing the child to choose and the kids are then in charge of deciding what they're going to eat from what's available, how much they're going to eat and even whether they're going to eat. Because we really want to respect a child autonomy to choose. That's called the division of responsibility. I find that with neurodiverse kids, extreme picky eaters. The families that I work with, that alone, that's like the goal. But it's not often enough because these kids like our families who have done that every single night for years and their kid's like, no, still no broccoli. No, no, no. You know, and they really need, in that case we really need the therapy or this building the skills and showing the child the steps. You know, it's like learning to swim or learning to read. It's like, yeah, they're not just gonna be Able to just do it. There's a lot involved in them for them to pick up that broccoli. Sometimes they need it. So division of responsibility is great, but often we just need some more scaffolding and more support at the meal time. So.

Yeah, yeah. It's not an easy road, is it? It's not just he put all the food out, the child eats there. And the thing is, if the child doesn't eat right.

Yeah.

As a mother.

Yeah.

You just get this thick gut feeling that your child is going to bed hungry and you resort to giving them their food preference or even a cup of milk or a bottle of milk. And then there goes the pattern or the behavior all over again.

Yeah.

What advice can you give to parents when the child chooses not to eat? Just give up and surrender. Let them have what they want or slowly persevere.

I would say to modify the. So that family style, service and in terms of parent provide child aside. Especially for kids who really have these feeding challenges, always one of those modifications we need to do is always provide a safe food. And when I say safe food, I mean like a food the child feels safe with, that they eat probably at least 50% of the time pretty reliably. That doesn't sort of cause any dysregulation. So the child's coming to the table knowing that there will be something predictable and something that they can quite comfortably eat, and that helps settle their nervous system as well. So then, you know, decrease that anxiety a little bit and it just helps make sure they get some volume in. Because that is the goal obviously of. Of the meal, is that they eat something. So if there is at least one safe food and if they. What we can work towards in therapy then is helping them bring those other foods from the middle of the table to their plate, and that's okay. And then the next step might be bringing it. Touching and interacting and then bringing it closer to the mouth and smelling and licking. And that's something we can work on between meals as a sort of therapy process. Yeah. At the meals, if you can set it up so that the child is regulated calm, there's a safe, safe food there that they can fill up on. They know they can fill their tummy there. And you can decide as a family whether you think having, you know, you decide when the next meal time is. So you might choose to serve a supper or have milk before bed, or you might not, depending on the age of your child and what's going on in your family. But if you can sort of keep that in mind, as this is my job as a parent. My child's job is in charge of what they're going to eat and how much.

Yeah, yeah. So agree with that. Something that just came to my mind as well earlier with safety. If it's a safe food, they say the child prefers to have the rice, that's the first option. And then have a second somewhat safe food. So that might be chicken fingers or so forth. And the third less likely food might be cucumber sticks or tomatoes. So the child can at least understand the options there and then pick that safety for. To support their nervous system.

Yes.

And then they're still filling up as opposed to resorting to milk or something after.

That's right, yeah. And you can say things like this. These are the foods that are available tonight. The next eating opportunity is going to be supper or it's going to be breakfast the next day. You know, this is when we're eating. So if everyone knows that mealtime routine and, you know, concept of control as.

Well, isn't it that predictability? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So cooking with your children, going shopping with your children and letting them explore the foods, touching and pretending to like them is all part of the process. Before we started, I noticed two gorgeous animals behind you. A turtle, I believe, and a tiger or a lion. Now in therapy. Yeah. Hello. Now in speech therapy, it's all about connection, which creates communication. And play always creates or supports that connection element. Without a doubt. I'm assuming that's the same pathway for you to allow the child to explore. We have to connect. And how children connect is through play. Yeah. Tell me how you incorporate the idea of play with feeding to support a child's feeding and trying different foods.

Yeah. So definitely a massive part of any therapy is the play and the connect, like to build that connection and to regulate the child. And we use the teddies and they all love the teddies and can really relate to them. And otherwise, obviously we're doing other games and play and always talk to parents about, you know, the. The meal time prep starts before you get to the table where, you know, thinking about meeting the sensory and connection needs throughout the day. And it's so worth investing, like 10 minutes before the meal, regulating their body and if they might be a bit in their tiger brain and their big muscles need some movement, something active, even like a stress ball at the table or like, you know, really looking at that nervous system to get them feeling more regulated. Sometimes even just having play, like play.

Will.

Sort of that process of Think of it as every sort of play based exposure will rewire the brain towards.

Yeah, I've heard of that quote. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they say repetitions.

Yeah.

For a child to learn a new skill without play, it's about 300 repetitions. But through play, through play it's about 12 repetitions. So if we want a child to learn how to touch a certain food, I'm assuming incorporate the play to increase the consistency and awareness around it.

Yes. And it's really important, I think, to distinguish between. Often people think, okay, we'll play and it'll be like, here comes the broccoli, you know, and it's, you know, and kids have this neuroception, you know, where they can pick up their nervous system or pick up your nervous system if they can tell that the play is you, like desperate to get that broccoli in their mouth. Yeah. It's probably not going to happen. Whereas what we want to think about with our play is this is helping my child feel safe. This is building connection between us. And it's not about getting them to eat the broccoli now. It's actually about rewiring the brain so that over time they can choose to explore the broccoli when they want and they're not going to have a meltdown, you know? Yeah. So it's, you know, it's that longer term goal with the play rather than I'm going to try and get this to your mouth because kids.

Yeah.

So.

So it's not about eating the broccoli.

That's right.

It's the pathway to getting them to connect to the broccoli so they can have a wider preference about even the texture of a broccoli, the taste of the broccoli, the color of the broccoli. So they might not even eat the broccoli, but they might eat a celery stick or something. Yeah, I can see that now. I understand that.

Yes.

So fascinating. I love this. I love this. Now I find a lot of parents, I was guilty of this when my children were younger and I need, I've got, I feel like as parents we have this idea that children have to eat. It's like this going back to warrior times or even age times where we're on a mission. We have a child needs to eat so we just, we might distract them with screen time so they can eat. But now I'm noticing a trend. At a restaurant, children will have their iPad while they eat or even a mother actually feeding the child themselves. Can we talk about the impact of screen time and meals and why do children tend to eat more when there's a screen involved?

Yeah, I think it can be helpful to kind of first validate that. You know, it comes obviously from the most well meaning place in terms of as a good parent you, you want to make sure your child's getting nutrition and you know, it's a very normal thing. You know, like as parents that's what we want to do. I suppose if we're looking at screens, what I would do is like you said, obviously there's. It often can get some more bites in but it can be then at the expense of what we want meal times to look like, which is the time of connection and interaction. It can mean they're not quite taking in that sensory experience and learning about that food and it can be harder see then to work on that interoception and hunger and fullness and making. Connecting the dots between I feel hungry, I eat to fill my tummy and then I feel better. Sort of thing is sort of that bit of disconnect. What I'd often do is kind of reflect on the journey so far with the parents. So how did we get from the baby in the high chair that might have eaten everything to. You need a screen to eat and I'm spinning every single mouthful and it's a battle and it's painful and everyone dreads it and it's, you know, it's just not what we wanted our meal times to look like. So sort of thinking about how did we get here, what was it? And if, you know, was it concern about that they were dropping their foods or they weren't eating as they're not eating as much as they used to and maybe then you know, dietitian and reassurance or about the nutritional intake so that you know, you can feel more relaxed to know they're getting enough so we don't have that pressure, you know, was it sensory overload and maybe they need a sensory diet or support and an ot, you know, you can refer. Is it they're having chewing problems and oral motor skills. Here's where our team comes in, you know, and then yeah, yeah, you know the speech therapist can help. So just if we can think about the, the reason why that can help inform. See what we can do about it. I would look at, I've got this tool like a booklet about neurodiverse kids and meal times and working through with your child. Like what do you enjoy? What's hard about mealtimes? Do you like you Know, we talk about the mealtime environment and the. Think about the lighting and the noise level. And often we don't think to necessarily look at that. But this, you know, the smells in the kitchen. And so I work through, like, what is it that might help the child in terms of environment kind of changes to feel better at meal times. Otherwise, looking at, like, the big picture of what do you want meal times to look like in your family? Yeah, you know, we want it to be connection and maybe we can work on even five minutes of converse. You know, you can get those fun conversation cards or telling a joke or playing. Would you rather. Or something. You know, just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring them often back to the food. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, things like placemats. So I often use them quite often to, like. Yeah, we want to engage the kids, engage their curiosity about the food. So if we can sort of have them doing something, looking at something, giving them tools to do that, that can help as well. To bring away from the screen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not an easy process. Can I just say. It's not just. It's. I would. I've seen some families that say, okay, discipline. No more screen time until you eat. Yes, until. Until that. That condition.

Right.

But it's so much more than the behavior or the discipline around that. Yeah, it's understanding a child's sensory preferences, their sensory profile, their nervous system, your own mealtime expectations. Cultural, I'm assuming, too.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So that's why I really feel, even if you're listening to these podcasts, it's nice to take this with a grain of salt and understand it. But if you're really struggling, do seek out some. See a dietitian or a feeding specialist like Rachel, who can really tailor the therapy and process specific to you and your family.

Yes, yes, absolutely. So there's no one right way to do mealtimes, especially with neurodivergent families. And often there's kids with multiple needs and different sensory preferences. And some kids can't even. In terms of sensory. Like, they can't even sit at the table because watching other people eat is too much. And so the child's eating separate and, you know, there's no easy answers or like, you have to do it this way. Like, we really have to work with the. For each individual family.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for sharing all this wonderful insight. I feel it would give parents a different perspective, but also open up the window about dietitians. I feel like we're not.

We don't discuss that enough yes, definitely. We just had a bit of a brainstorm or ideas on our disability dietitians Facebook group about, you know, situations where as a dietitian you've helped, you know, a child might have been doing feeding therapy or trying different things for so long and then the dietitian came on board and ah, well, they were anemic or of course they weren't going to be eating. They were on a feeding tube and they was getting the full nutrition from the tube and they just, they weren't hungry at all for food and you know, once we went weaned them off the tube then they could actually start eating. So yeah, it's definitely can be an important part of picture.

Yeah. So thank you again for sharing this insight. I'm now curious more not the dietitian role, but as a mother of a child with a neuro. With a neurodivergent child. Many families listen to this on Wine with Weider and I feel when they hear other families going through it, particularly health professionals, it takes that professional roll off and that you then create that connection. Yes, please tell the listeners about your journey and how that has changed you as a professional in with working with.

Other families so much. You know, I look back and just think before, obviously before you have kids at all, you know, that changes your practice a lot.

No dummy, no screen time.

Yes.

Yeah, have a tantrum.

I won't know about McDonald's. Yeah, definite changed completely. And just that, just that level of understanding and compassion and just knowing like when I suppose having been on the receiving end of being dismissed and almost like gaslighted and feeling totally invalidated for so long and the blank stare or the like. Well, you just have to make them.

What do you mean?

They work like you're the parent, you know, you can make them like. And no you can't, you know, and so just being on the receiving end of that for so long and feeling like we were struggling, you know, really, really definitely changed the practice and the lens that you look. Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess there's that connection that you've created. Your, your own concerns that you experienced are validated through another parent which then creates that beautiful rapport and trust where you've been on the back end of it, lived experience. So you know what? I know how hard it is. I know how exhausting it is. I know the, in the invisible looks that you get from other people, but there's always that. But you will get to it with the right support and I feel like your story would connect with so many families.

And I know some of your other guests have said, spoken about and yourself just about, you know, your practice and you get so attached to your clients and connected and I feel like just having gone through it just helps that so much. And my clients know that if their child has a meltdown or they're having a hard day and they're not coping or their siblings not coping and everything's falling apart because I do home visits and I'm in their home and I'm so honored to do that and be in their environment and they know like, like you can just relax. My child has meltdowns too. We know they're not a bad kid. They're just having a hard time and we can just support them through it, you know? Yeah. It makes all the difference.

It does. And that's what creates a beautiful relationship too, which is so amazing.

Yes. Yeah.

Well, Rachel, thank you for sharing all your wonderful insight and personal lived experience on wine with Weeder. Throughout the conversation, you mentioned that you have certain resources, sources. Would you be open to sharing them and how parents can access them.

Sure, definitely. So I have a couple of things available. So there's the booklet about sort of neurodiversity and meal times and helping a child kind of work through so that everyone's feeling more relaxed. It can be sort of a nice starting point and framework for how can we make meal times better. Um, so that is available. I also have a guide called Overcoming Arfid and Extreme Picky Eating. Um, so that's kind of a bit of a step by step guide. It includes a placemat that you can use at the table. So one of those things where you can print it out, laminate it, give your child a texture, a marker, and you know, they can do it. Or depending on their age, you could do it as a family. You might have a new food in the middle of the table and you can work through. And it really just helps cover those first three steps to eating, like looking and touching and smelling and, you know, draw out their curiosity. And that booklet has other ideas in as well that parents can use. Yeah.

And if people want to access you as a pediatrician, I know you do home visits, but where I'm based in Sydney and a lot of listeners are based from Melbourne and Sydney. Can they have online sessions with you?

Yeah, definitely. So I've developed a feeding program which is designed to be delivered 100% online. And it's really just as a health professional, you just, you know, I start starting from like 30 minute consults in a medical center, which is just ridiculous and impossible to towards that therapy model which is better, but it still doesn't quite. I found it just, it wasn't enough because it's good to come in for an hour a week or an hour a fortnight, but feeding happens three times a day, every day, you know, and often these families, like I did feel like they're drowning and it's just so hard. So I wanted something that really helped to bridge that gap and really give that bit more support. So the way I work online is through a feeding program which I've kind of developed through all my, all my research and training as well as with a child psychologist and ot so sort of developed. So it's a bit of a multi disc program and it's a hybrid model. So it is online with therapy with a child and we have some lovely, exciting, innovative ways to build the connection and incorporate the play and make it fun and sort of online resources and modules and things combined with great, the parent support to help them implement it. So it's exciting. We've been, families have been going really, really well, so online is no problem at all.

Yeah, I have a number of clients that I'm going to refer to you tomorrow because when I see them and they're only eating the pancake with Nutella every Monday morning, I'm like, yeah, okay, we need to go see Rachel because this poor mother is just so. She's at her end, she's at her wit's ends and she's like, I need, I need someone. Yes, you can be the Ms. Rachel.

Yeah, I love it when I arrive and I hear from the inside of the house, Rachel's here.

I love it, I love it. Well, thank and Ray for everyone. All of Rachel's information will be included in the show notes, including her Instagram, which she provides lots of lovely resources for you to learn from as well as her website. Rachel, as you've heard, online with Weider, I ask all my guests a question. If you were to be a better version of yourself tomorrow, what word will you apply to yourself today?

The word I tell all my clients and I don't do it to myself enough. Self compassion, like compassion. Offer yourself compassion like you're doing your best and that's good enough. And no parents. Perfect. Perfect.

That's right. It's so hard to apply, but yeah, be compassionate towards yourself and give yourself grace. Absolutely, absolutely. So thank you again, Rachel for coming online with Weeda this evening. It's been a pleasure finally to meet you and to talk with you. And for everybody else, another episode of Wine with with Weeda will be brought.

To your ears really soon.

Take care everybody.

Thank you.

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Wine with Weeda. I hope you found some new inspiration, learned something new or gained a fresh perspective. If you enjoy this episode, I'd be so grateful if you please leave a five star review as it really helps the show get in the ears of new listeners. Plus it takes five seconds. If you're keen for more strategies and insights, then head over to Instagram and follow RS Speech Pathology.