#108 Trauma Recovery with Dr. Susan Cucchiara

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Educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donni, and I'm looking forward to introducing you to my friend and colleague today, Dr. Sue. She's Dr. Susan Kuchara, naturopathic physician, and she goes by Dr. Sue or naturally Sue. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Of course, we met back, I think, when you were in your training at Naturopathic Medical School and in Manhattan. And my gosh, I'm so happy to have known you all along your professional journey. And one thing that you and I have in common is that we love to help people with all kinds of different, various health conditions, from acute conditions like a cold or everything, to chronic illness like autoimmunity and chronic infections. I'm really excited to address that today, especially the idea of how naturopathic doctors view illness and healing, and particularly chronic illness. How we sometimes get stuck in our process with our health issues and how we can help people get unstuck. So tell us first a little bit how you decided to become a naturopathic physician and how come you're inspired to help people in this way.

Yeah, so I personally have never even been in the medical space ever. In my younger years, I was in advertising. I had a marketing and advertising degree from St. John's University in Queens, New York. I thought I wanted to be, like, the top advertising executive. That was my dream. And I worked in various media agencies, advertising agencies in Gray and OMD in Manhattan. And I thought that was what I wanted to do. And then, unfortunately, as time passed, I was like, okay, I don't really think this is what I wanted to do. I didn't feel a sense of, I don't know how to put it, fulfillment that I thought I was going to feel. And I'll never forget the day that I went into the elevator and one of the girls that I worked with, and she just looked really, just uninspired and not in a good space. And I remember asking her, like, okay, what are we going to do? Like, are we going to stay here. What are we going to do? And I remember her saying, you know, I started this nutrition program and it's been like lighting my soul on fire. I love it. And maybe you'd be interested too. And I've always been interested in nutrition, but I never thought that I could really get into it and do something as a career. And so I looked into it and Dadadani, do you know the Institute for Integrative Nutrition? Yes. They actually had an in person. I was the last in person class in Lincoln center and.

I decided to take that on while I was in the advertising job. And I started learning about all things holistic nutrition and about the mind and the body and how to inspire your clients and all sorts of health conditions. And then I started realizing, okay, maybe this advertising gig wasn't really what I, what I really wanted to do. And long story short, I quit that job and I ended up doing this nutrition program and I graduated and I started seeing clients in Manhattan doing mostly weight loss detox. And although it was super fun and I loved it, I felt like I wanted more. And I kept learning about naturopathic doctors on the program. And I, at the time I was dating somebody who was moving to Arizona to go to dental school. And he said, can you move with me and go to naturopathic school? And I was like, how the heck am I going to become a naturopath? I am a business major.

And thankfully for him, I was like, well, I guess I'm going to try. So I did the pre med in Arizona and then got in. And then.

It was obviously the hardest thing I've ever done in my life with no science background, having to start from scratch. But because I knew I was supposed to be there, I felt like I was being guided by higher, you know, higher spirit God. And I then ended up precepting for you. I remember being like, I need to come to New York to get some clinical hours. And it was an honor and a privilege to be able to precept under you and another naturopathic doctor, Dr. Gillian Finker in New York. And that's how it happened. And so since then, it's kind of, I never looked back. And I've been able to use some of the stuff I've learned in my undergraduate to obviously help patients about, you know, about my business. But it was not a straight road, that's for sure.

Amazing. And it's, you know, I know that how much you inspire people like in the work that you do and online, you know, really, I think One of the main things I see is how much you help people feel seen and heard for the struggle they may be having with their health. You know, whether that might be some way that they're in pain, either physical pain or emotional pain, or dealing with inflammation in their body, whether from an infection or from autoimmunity or from hormone imbalances.

Just really being able to be an equal with people and say, hey, I'm just here to be with you and help you understand your body and help you to know what your body needs in order to heal. I mean, maybe share a little bit more about that from your perspective. Yeah.

And thank you for saying that. It's a very vulnerable spot to be in. And I remember, I think I had this conversation with you, too, at one point where you're like, do I tell people about what health issues I have? Are they going to look at me as flawed? Are they going to look at me that I can't help them? Are they going to look at me like, oh, if I haven't 100% healed, I can't heal them or help them heal. Right. Because they heal themselves or guide them to healing. So it was a very hard decision to start sharing about my own health journey and another reason that got me into naturopathy. I remember being sick for so many years, throughout my teenage years, 20s, and no one was able to figure it out. I just got prescribed tons of antidepressants for my symptoms, telling me I was crazy. It was in my head, which we hear all the time from our patients. And I remember at the time, I had gone to my mentor, Dr. Jim Sensenik, and.

He was in Connecticut at the time. And I saw him and he was like, okay, well, first off, you have parasites, okay? And I was like, oh, my God, like someone's finding something. And then it kind of just started from there. And through the years, it was obviously incredibly difficult to get through medical school because I didn't know I was actually undiagnosed with Lyme disease about five, six years ago. I had never knew I had it. And so, as we know, if you don't catch that pretty quick, it just disseminates into every single organ system and just causes so many issues. So I have been able to find a place where I feel comfortable now, sharing and saying, I understand what you've been through. And I have to say, most of the patients actually end up. My fear of them not wanting to be a part of my practice, that was actually the opposite. They were like, wow, you get me. And it's just kind of saying, I get it, I understand. And then the other part of that, which I'm sure we could talk about too, later, is that it was like, I think five, six years ago that I ended up just having a flashback of a trauma from my childhood that I had never remembered. And it wasn't until I started doing that work that I started seeing the physical symptoms, start lifting. And that's when I was like, okay, we have something here. Like, we always knew. Mind, body. But when you see it yourself, and then you start seeing hundreds of Lyme patients and you ask them, do you have trauma? Some of them a don't remember. Right. Because their body is just not in that place to remember yet. It's not safe enough. But at that point, it was the lowest part of my life when I remembered that. But almost the best part, because then it was like, okay, now I understand why I'm the way I am, and now I can fix it. It wasn't an easy pill to swallow, but. But just telling patients that this has happened to me has been really eye opening for them to feel seen and heard. Because, as you know, they go to some type of conventional doctors and they're just getting sent out or it's brushed under the rug.

And to realize that sometimes we get focused on the diagnosis, whether it's Lyme or maybe an autoimmune condition, or even anxiety or depression or migraines, we're focused on that diagnosis. But from a naturopathic perspective and from what you're describing as your personal experiences, like being able to. Well, first of all, I hear you were kept very dedicated on, focused on the concept that your body could heal if you could just understand what really was underlying. Committed to finding whatever's underlying, even if it may be a traumatic memory.

Right. Even if it was horrible, it was like it needed to come out at that time. And, you know, I remember there were years before where I had. I remember, and I'll never forget this moment. I was in a psychology class in naturopathic school. And the. I don't know if you know, Dr. Nicole Cain, she had asked the question. She was teaching the class and she had asked, or she prefers that if you have a patient who tells you they can't remember before the age of seven, you need to start thinking of trauma as that could be their obstacle to cure. And I remember being like, oh, my goodness. And she said, does anyone. She's like, raise your hand in the room if you remember the age of seven. And I would say, Three quarters of the room raised their hand, and me and one of my closest guy friends in school, I looked at him, he looked at me, and I was like, I don't remember anything. And he's like, I remember nothing. And I was like, oh, boy. And I knew then, but when you're in medical school, it is not the time, you know, dig up that can of worms. That was. That's not the time. So it was interesting because as soon as I moved back from Arizona to New York, the place in which that whole incident occurred, it was like, that was my home. That's when, you know, it ended up coming up with the help of a shaman. Actually, it was. It was a beautiful experience. She was actually in Arizona for all those years, and I was too afraid to see her. And now it makes sense, because why do you want to see someone who's potentially going to give you your truth? That although you need to know, it's not something that is easy to, you know, to deal with. So, yeah, so that's what ended up happening. So I was like, well, how am I going to find this out? And I ended up doing a Skype with her. And it was just like, flash in front of my face. And obviously, it was one of the hardest times in my life. But like I said it. If I didn't know what was keeping me stuck and sick, it was only making me feel more hopeless.

So at a certain point, you're like, I already feel awful.

Awful.

I'd rather just find out what's. What's creating this pattern. And, yeah, so it is so interesting. I mean, definitely, with my work with a shaman, I've seen that, too, where it's. It's a path to sometimes discover these wounds that are there that we, first of all, sometimes we have forgotten about because our protection mechanisms in our body cause us to forget things in our childhood. And also, we kind of get busy with life, and we have a lot of different dissociative and protective patterns that a lot of times people have no idea that this is going on.

You didn't. No idea. And I remember I was going to get craniosacral therapy in New York at the time. And when I finally remembered, I told her because we became very close, and she was like, oh, honey, I know. I knew. I'm like, you knew? You know, how did you know? Like, Like, I didn't know. How did you know? How did you know? And, you know, it's not like she was psychic. She just. She. She works with trauma survivors every single Day. And she feels what it feels like in their body. Energetically, right? Craniosacral. There's energetics there. And so she can feel it. She can hear. By my physical symptoms, I mean, like incessant migraine. So it's like, there's something there, right? What's going on here? And I remember at that moment, I was like, well, why didn't you tell me? She's like, why would I tell you? Your body did not remember. So if we're going to force anything, right, Such as we can't force detox. It's the same thing, right? You want to do it gentle enough, it would have not been safe. And just like you said, if you haven't remembered yet, there's a reason. It's probably that it's just not the right time. And that's what a lot of people will ask me. Oh, well, maybe there's something that I need to remember. I'm like, there probably is. But go through the work, whether it be with therapists, with emdr, with shamans, with energy healers, but let it be a natural process, because people can have a legitimate nervous breakdown if their body is not ready and they're being told something happened to them. I mean, that. That's the ultimate, I would say shock, right? Someone. They're not ready.

Yeah. It's so true. And that's where, you know, anyone listening, you know, you might start to go, oh, maybe this is. This sounds like, you know, it resonates for me. Or maybe there's something there for me to discover. But you can. You can just let that path unfold, right? Like what you're saying. Let it unfold gently and gradually. And once you start to kind of open up the possibility, then it'll come to you in the right form. Right. It doesn't have to be forcing it.

No, exactly. Even, like, I plan to see, like, even if I were to ask, and I ask it in ways, like with patients, I'll say, okay, well, what do you remember before? You know, what do you remember from. I usually go in a chronic with my new patients. I'll go in a chronological order of their health because I literally find all these details that I wouldn't have known. And then I feel like that would helps me so much with their case. I'll just ask them, like, oh, what do you remember from 1 to 10? Is there anything from, you know, acute childhood sicknesses? Do you remember being anxious, depressed? Do you remember having a physical trauma? Did you fall? Did you have emotional trauma? What was Your relationship, like with your parents, your family. I feel like that 10 years tells me everything about them. And when patients say, I remember nothing, then my alarm bell goes off and I say, okay. You know, and then I gently. A lot of times, our bodies tends to forget when things are traumatizing. Are you open to the idea that there might be something and then almost like planting that seed? I don't know. Maybe they might have a dream. Maybe there might be something that they talk to with a friend that just kind of. You know, when you just randomly somewhere and something just pops up for you, it's like that might be the thing that needed to be said to make them think, okay, because it's. Who wants to really relive horrifying things that happen to them? It's not something you want to do. You need to do it for your sanity and for your mental and physical health, but it's not something that is pleasurable. So no one. Everyone loves to repress it and just put it under the rug as much as. As possible.

Right. Right. Yeah, we're really. We're really good at that. And sometimes that shows up as, like, addiction. Addictions. We get addicted to work or addicted to food, or would you say.

Do you see that 100%. I mean, I even see it in myself. Like, I'll get addicted to work to not have to go there and feel those feelings. Right. And then this one, that one shaman who I love, her name is Rain, she would say to me, you know, you're not going to heal if you don't feel right. We have to feel, but you have to feel safe enough to feel. Right. If you're going to start to feel the anxiety that you felt when you were, let's say, a child and that horrible thing happened to you, and you don't feel in a safe place around maybe someone who you feel can be that person to be there for you, or you haven't gotten to the place where you can feel safe for yourself. I mean, that could be horrifying for people. But, yeah, I've seen people. It's wine. Like, I had this one. I had this one patient who known her for very many years, and she, you know, she loves the good life in Manhattan and the Hamptons, which is great, and they love to drink, but it's different. It's like, you know, the bottle of wine a night, right? There's. I said, what's going on? That there has to be a bottle a night. Right. I know your job is stressful, and then it. Of course uncovered that she has childhood. You know, it was like sexual trauma. Right. So it's. There's something that has to dull that pain. Right. Because just a lot of people don't know that they can really get help from trauma therapists. A lot of people are going to regular therapists and just having talk therapy. And if they're not trauma informed or they don't know somatic therapies, the talk therapy can be great to just maybe to let stuff out. But it doesn't heal trauma when we talk about it. Like, it has to be released in ways throughout the body or in emdr. So a lot of times people don't know that these things are available because they just talk to their therapist about it, and.

They'Ll just talk to their therapist about it and then it's just like, oh, it is. But it's stuck in their body. Right? There's that stored component to it.

Well, and I like how you're mentioning sometimes people might be in therapy or working with a therapist or different kinds of, as you mentioned, emdr. There's so many different approaches that can help with trauma processing. When you are working with a patient, what do you suggest to them? What do you, you know, where do you guide them from there once they've kind of found that this might be an area to investigate?

So some patients will say, yes, I had this trauma happen to me. And then I, and then I say, okay, well, what have you done? Have you done anything? And some will say no. Some will say, yes. Some will say, I've done emdr, but I was blocked. I couldn't go there. Right? We just knew they weren't ready. Some people just have no memories, but they have, you know, the worst health. And I'm like, okay, there's something underlying. So normally what I tell them is they have a few different decisions in terms of who or choices in terms of who they want to see. I've explained that I have done EMDR in the past, and I thought that was really amazing. It really helped me a lot. But EMDR has to be done at the right time. I'll never forget I telling the therapist I thought he was like stealing my money because he. I was like, I'm here for emdr. And he's like, okay, well, we're not going to have the EMDR today. And I'm just like, what do you mean? And like, why are we not the EMDR today? And there was like three or four sessions where he would not do emdr. And I remember coming home really angry. And I'm like, I went there for EMDR and he didn't give me what I wanted. And he was telling me, you have to create islands of safety. And he would draw these little islands on a piece of paper for me. Because if you're going to have these memories come up, you don't want to re traumatize, right? And a lot of people say, well, oh, with emdr, are you. Why would you want to bring memories up? Because you're going to re traumatize. But that's not what it is. It's reprocessing what needs to be processed that's actually keeping you sick, sick, stuck, sick, not well, emotionally, mentally. And so whatever comes up is what's so emotionally charged that needs to clear. But if it's done too prematurely. And now, because that experience, I tell my patients, if they don't do EMDR first, it is okay because God knows what have happened if I had EMDR that first day. So you have to create this rapport with your therapist. And so I always say you really have to find someone who's trauma trained. Do they do actual somatic therapies? Like, I remember being in therapy where, you know, we would talk about a memory or something, and that came up, and then I would like literally beat the crap out of the pillow. And he would hold the pillow or he would make. Make me like pound on the floor, right? To release them out of my body. So I would always tell them about EMDR and then obviously somatic work. And then. And I asked them if they're open into shamanic work, spiritual. And I have to say, most of the patients who land in my practice happen to be those people which I'm really happy that I don't have to really convince to go see. And so that shaman in Arizona, she does Skype and I have her. See, she sees probably a good 50% of my patients. And they adore her because she helps them do inner child work. She helps them release things from a spiritual perspective. And she's just a really safe space. And you just feel that with her. So I do send a lot of patients to, you know, to her if, let's say, they don't have insurance too. And, you know, she's affordable and you know, because a lot of times if you, you know, some people can't afford $300 a week, right? And so I'll send them to her. I've had psychologists, I've had attorneys go to her, and they're like, wow, she's incredible. She, like, teaching me things about myself that I didn't know. So those are, like, the first, like, I would say from a therapy. And then, like, I'll give them, like, at home, EFT handouts, like, emotional freedom technique. Like, what can they do in the moment when something's coming in? And then from a naturopathic perspective, I'll give them flower essences. I'll try to find a homeopathic that can maybe help their trauma or a cell salt or an undone number or something that I feel like can help their nervous system, even if it's a little palliative at first, just to kind of calm them down and then kind of work deeper on their nervous system. So that's usually how I approach it, but very gently.

I love that. And I, believe me, I know what you mean about emdr, because I found that for myself, too. Like, you're, like, so ready to go, and then you're like, wait a minute, we have to get ready first. But it's a really good lesson of saying, hey, even when you're, like, ready to dive in, it's better to create this foundation of support. And I hear you saying that, like, from, you know, like. And that's how, you know you're working with a good therapist or shaman is if they create that safe space. Space. So you have that foundation to. Because once you start doing the work, things might get triggered and aggravated, and you need that to be able to fall back on the base, the foundation. And even what you're describing, like, with. There's so many tools in naturopathic medicine that, you know, it's almost like creating your toolbox, your trauma toolbox kind of thing. Right?

Right. You have your flower essence. You have your. I have this one called Traumagen. It's like, you know, everything that's set up to kind of keep you for success. Right? Like, what if you. What if you have an environment where you go home to and you, I don't know, have a bad relationship with your husband or. And you come. I don't know about you, but when I had come back from emdr, I had to just isolate for, like, five to seven hours. I just needed to be by myself. I couldn't socialize with people, but I couldn't have, like, an environment of turmoil because you're already in such a sensitive state. State because you're still reprocessing. And even my therapist at the time, you process these, you know, even from one emdr, even weeks later. Right. So it's important, like, do I have Certain remedies to be my go to. If I start having anxiety, do I, you know, can I communicate with my therapist and say, I just had a patient the other day. She, all of her symptoms just started coming up again and I'm like, something's going on. And then she just finally told me, oh, I just had EMDR again. Okay, well now I understand. I'm like, okay, I'm thinking what we gave her didn't work. No, her body's just trying to process it. Right. So it's just important to kind of know like, what's your environment going to be like when you come home? Like I remember telling my boyfriend, okay, I'm having EMDR today. Today is a nice calming day. I'm just going to go relax. Like there's, you know, no altercations, there's no like. And so that person could just be aware that it's not the time to talk. You know, pick a fight about, you know, the trash or something stupid. It's not the day. But you know, you just kind of prepare yourself to know, okay, I'm going to be really nurturing of my mind and body that day.

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And this is all, I mean I love this because it really is set in this basis that our nervous system can recover from trauma. Like we, the studies show that, you know, that we even, even when we've had early childhood trauma and even repeat trauma and, and, and even chronic pain from illnesses that the body has this amazing ability to heal and the nervous system can heal. Right. It's like. And so that's why it's worth putting in that effort because some People might be like, oh, my gosh, that seems like a lot to have to kind of like. But if you. Like you said earlier, if you can contrast with. If you feel really overwhelmed and in pain, emotional, spiritual psych, you know, physical pain in your life, then it can be worth it to say, hey, let me get myself a team of people who can support me through this process of healing the trauma and allowing my body the chance and my nervous system the chance to heal.

Right, exactly. Because then you're just chasing, you know, chasing these physical therapies. I mean, people. Or I have people. This is a perfect example. Someone came to me the other day, and I've been with this doctor for five years. And, you know, we're just. It's like we're six years, and we're just killing things and killing things. And like, I don't know, it was some type of infection she had. And it's like, well, why is this organism. Why does this organism want to live there? Right? Like what? And so from a naturopathic perspective, as you know, we see things a little bit differently. Right? Like what? And so when I asked her what was going on, she shared that it was grief from a family member. And as soon as I asked her, I said, well, when did you get diagnosed? Tells me when she got diagnosed. And I said, well, what happened then? And she goes, what do you mean, what happened then? I said, well, what happened around the time you got diagnosed? Oh, this person died. And then the water works on the phone, so. And I was like, well, that's why you haven't gotten well. And this is actually. Although this is very painful for you, it's really good that we're finding this out now because you've been taking all these killing agents for so long. And the other part, it's really important is I noticed that besides from the killing agents, that a lot of them, they can't tolerate any vitamins. And I was like, this, too. I couldn't even take a drop. Or even a homeopathic remedy. I literally have to take one of the remedy bottles, and I would have to just keep it on me.

Just close.

It becomes so sensitive even to things that are good for you, that are good for you.

You're just your body's rejecting. And it's like. And when she's telling me I can't even take vitamin C, I'm like, the first thing I thought in my head. I'm like, your nervous system. And I remember Dr. Dixon, Tom, who is another one of my mentors, he would always tell us, you have to sometimes go in the back door for people and not the front door. Right. So the back door may be taking the remedy and putting it in a batht and sitting in it or doing a drop in a liter of water and taking a sip. Because start with these tiny, tiny doses because your nervous system is so reactive from being so traumatized that you're just violently reacting. And then you're like, oh, well, good things make me sick. And then you believe about yourself that nothing's going to get you well and good things make you sick. And I remember at the time I couldn't take anything. And now, like, I could pop three of them and not even aggravate anymore. Right. So. But it took time. But at the time you, like, start, like, what's wrong with my body? Like, my body's faulty.

And then it just adds. It just is spirals. Yeah, I notice this too. I talk about it as, like, sometimes we have to. It's almost like there's a radar. The body has a radar system for something that would be a trigger. Even if it even. It could, it could be something good for you. It could still hit that radar. So it's a matter of how do we stay under the radar? And I. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about these more energetic therapies that you're mentioning, because sometimes when you do have that trauma history or that quick trigger to stress response, working with energetic therapies can really help because they're less likely to trigger. I mean, homeopathy is classic in terms of. That's one of the things, as naturopathic doctors we're trained to use is, of course, this ancient system of medicine of homeopathy. Talk a little like, just tell us your. Like, I want to hear, like, how do you explain homeopathy? And how do you explain drainage therapy? And how do you explain, you know, explain some of these and.

Yeah, I bet.

To people.

Yeah. So it's, it's interesting because a lot of people, they hear homeopathy and they call us homeopathic doctors, and they don't really understand what the difference is. And we have to say, well, we're naturopaths and we use homeopathy. So I can be very, very simple today for people to understand. So, like, there's, like, people see these, right? These are the boron remedies. So the best way I explain it is that the concept is like, cures, like. And the best example I give to people is that if someone were to have watery eyes or itchy eyes or their nose was running. We may give them homeopathic onion, right? Allium sepa.

It's.

You give the person the same of what their symptoms are that that remedy can create in a healthy person. So that's my. Usually how people start to. So, and I usually explain it as each remedy, the right substances from the earth just diluted and potentized in either three 30C, 200C. You'll see the 30C mostly in the like Whole Foods and all the health food stores. But it's important that people understand that if they are sensitive to homeopathy that they're. It's not that they can't take it, they just do it differently, right? So some people, you know, who are, who are not sensitive, they take three pellets, they put it right into their mouth and they're good. But some patients, we tell them, okay, you're sensitive. We see that they react to vitamin C. We're like, okay, well this can, these are really powerful, right? So I always explain some people, those sensitive folks can basically they, I call it like you spring cleaning. And instead of like emptying one thing out of the closet, like you empty all the content inside of your closet at once. And so all your stuff can get charged up. And then they think, oh my God, this naturopath is crazy. She gave me this remedy. It's making all my symptoms worse. And it's not making it worse so much. It just was a little strong for you. And it just kind of pulled up a bunch of stuff that you needed to come up. But we don't always need it to be aggravated in that way. So we tell patients like, you can just put it literally right here, keep it on you. If you're sensitive, you can put some pellets in water and then you can. We tell people to just like shake it, shake the bottle. So I tell sensitive patients, take a water bottle, put two or three pellets in, and then keep it in their fridge. And every time they're going to take a dose, they just shake it 10 times to activate the medicine and then take a sip. Literally one sip. And that's.

I mean, you can do all sorts of things. And then. So that's just a one. When we call them constitutional remedies where we can give acute and chronic. And then like these, these are unda numbers, these are combination homeopathic remedies. So they'll have a bunch of different homeopathics in them. So you can use kind of a combo of Both of them. This is what, when people call biotherapeutic drainage, these are what's involved in that. And so you can either give. Like I said, you can give this just on its own. Right. Someone comes in, they're grieving. Right. They just lost someone. You're like, oh, they might need Ignatia. You go straight to Ignatia. Whereas other patients, I may give both. They chronic stuff. They have acute. You try to find their constitutional remedy. So that's the basis of the difference between both of them.

Yeah. And that's the thing, is this is what we're trained to either already know them, and plus, we're working with them all the time, so we become familiar. Or we have recently, we can use books or online software to help us.

Help find the remedy, which is.

Right remedy. And then also always seeing how the person responds. And then you can always choose a different one. And you can. We can also make our own combinations if we.

Yep. You can make some too. Right. I remember Dr. Samson because, you know, there's some schools of thought. It's like, you never mix the homeopathic remedy with another. And he did not agree with that. And he. I remember one day I was in his office because I met. I precepted with him for, like, years. And I was in his office in his little medicine area, and he took two remedies and he put them in the same bottle and he makes them up. And he was like, did you see what happened? And I was like, no. What? He's like, nothing. Because people thought that. People thought that, you know, if you mix the remedy, something crazy would happen. Because there's, you know, some homeopaths that are very, like, strict in the rules that you don't mix remedies. But he's like, they're presenting as both, so why not give both? Nothing's gonna happen. So everyone has their own idea of what, you know. That's why a lot of the old school homeopathic, you know, practitioners, they may not like the combo, like unda numbers, because they're like, oh, there's mixed, but it's different. It's. These are like, draining. This is more of a drainage remedy. Right. So I don't really love rules, and I don't like being indoctrinated by something. So that feels right. And they looking like there are two remedies. I may give two remedies. You know, it's not a big deal.

Yeah. Sometimes give a single remedy. Sometimes combination.

Yeah.

And it's. And it's. I Like this, it's this. I say energetic because it's, it can. They can work on a physical level, but also emotional, spiritual level. And it's like I think of remedies as helping to bring your body back to balance, bring your mind, body and spirit to a more of a balanced place. So it's. There's some trust that goes into it because you're trusting that this, if this is the right remedy for you, it's going to help bring balance. A lot of times if it's not the right remedy, you won't feel anything, do anything.

Right. That's the worst case. Right. I always say it's the worst case. You spend $8, it didn't do anything. And you can use it acutely for something else. And you're building up your homeopathic or, you know, natural medicine area. Like at least it's not expensive. It's the wrong remedy. You can get them for like $8.

And flower essences you mentioned earlier is somewhat similar, but they can match up to different emotional states. Tell us more about that.

Yeah, so flower essences, I've been giving flower essences. So Basically it was Dr. Bach, right? He's the one who came up with that. You can use certain flowers will balance certain parts of your personality. So if you see Bach flower essences in whole foods or health food stores, they may have just a few emotions on each bottle. But when I have a patient and I hear what's going on with them, I'll have them do a, like a Bach flower questionnaire. And I'll have them check off if I know they're really in need of a Bach flower essence. I'll have an idea what flowers. But I want to see what emotions they're checking off just to see. And then I can. Then we can make them like SCNM will make me up A. You went to SC&M too, right? No, we went to Best Year. Okay. You scnm. That's why I got confused.

We. But we had, we did that too at Bestia. We had to follow.

Okay, so you made them okay?

Yeah.

So we would like. I would just call in and I'd say, okay, I want a flower essence of these flowers. And then it's specific, right? Because you can go into like there's rescue remedy. Right? That's great for everybody.

That's a classic one you can find usually at the store.

That'll help everybody shock grief. I remember we used to down that right before our tests in school. You know, you can take that anytime and then. And then, you know, people can look like Star of Bethlehem. It's like more, you know, grief and trauma. Right. So if they, you know, if they choose that one, they can choose just by going to a health food store. But when you have a naturopath, sometimes you can then get a remedy designed just for you and then it can really help you. I have had a patient who. He didn't want to quit his job because he was too scared, but he knew it was toxic for him. And once he got a flower essence, he wrote me an email that, oh, my God, I quit my job. And I felt like, liberated, like it was what I needed, like it was not scary anymore. Or I had another patient, this was fascinating. Had type 1 diabetes, and I gave him a flower essence because he had a lot of trauma, and I didn't expect it to lower his blood sugar in a good way. I just thought it was going to help him with his trauma. He said his blood sugar that day was the best he ever saw it. And he was like, I'm a believer. And I was like, wow, I learned things every day from patients too. But see, we supported his nervous system and then everything else just followed.

Yeah. So amazing. And I think. And to have. I think a lot of times, if a person is dealing with anxiety and trauma, to just know that you have certain things you can go to, including things like deep breathing. Right. And meditation and all these. There's so many different tools we can turn to to help us with the stress processing. Is there any others you'd like to mention that you.

Well, I do tell people, people I know myself, like hearts. It's very hard to meditate when you have had trauma. So it's like just sitting there. And you know, the typical meditation is super triggering for a lot of people. So I just tell them you walking meditations. You know, I know even I've done better myself than just kind of just sitting or maybe not doing the quiet because you don't feel safe in that. It's like your nervous system is always on fight or flight. And then all of a sudden now you're trying to come into this parasympathetic calm state and it just does not feel safe. There's. So I'll usually tell patients, you know, just walk and like, maybe, you know, get their aggression well, even if they're feeling anxious, like, get their aggression like, as they're walking into the ground to. My Even therapist had told me, like, look for a color, right? To be mindful, like, just, okay, I'm gonna look for orange and just look for orange everywhere.

If your mind something to focus on something.

Right. Because it's very hard. I don't know about you, but like what? It's very hard when you're in that kind of triggered trauma state to sit there and just be like, okay, I'm gonna sit quiet now. Right.

And then your mind just floods with every thought.

Right. You can't handle it. Then you feel overwhelmed, Then you're like, oh, the thing that was supposed to make me feel better, now I feel worse. And then that's why people can hate meditating. So it can work for some. But that's why I feel like the movement with the meditation is really important.

So just always listening to yourself and finding, hey, there's gotta be a different variation. Like it's not one size fits. All right.

Exactly.

You have to see what you respond best to. You create that.

Yeah, because we're comparing a lot to, you know, oh, well, this person gets upset for 30 minutes in meditation. I mean I, that would never happen for me. But like other people are, you know, 30 minutes they're sitting there and then we compare like, well, why can't I do this? So it's the same thing even with chronic illness. And people say, oh, but I can't exercise and like just go take a 10 minute walk. And they think that's not, that's not good enough. I'm like, no, it is good enough for you. And then by the, by the time you talk to them next, they're starting to, to feel better. And then they went and took a 30 minute walk because they started to actually feel better that they didn't have to go to CrossFit or orange theory and you know, do extremism of therapies. You know what I mean?

I mean, I think it's the same as what we were talking about with these, these gentle, energetic approaches. You can just literally hold the homeopathic remedy near your body and have a response. So if we can do those little tiny doses of a substance, we can also do tiny doses of, of exercise or tiny doses of deep breathing or you know, anything can start with a tiny dose. And then as your body starts to feel good about it, then you can, you can say, hey, maybe now I can expand a little bit longer, a little more intense and you know, again, right. Is always this listening to your body and then deciding when you can.

Right. When's next? Right. When do you feel you can go next? And then you, and then it just feels more natural. It's like not forced, you know? Right. Because as we learned, when you have a chronic illness or trauma or you want to detox, the last thing you want to do is force anything out.

It's just going to make it worse. You're just going to feel worse.

That's for sure. Not worth it. No, not worth it whatsoever.

And you probably say this too. If you do feel worse, then you got to go, okay, I got to back off on something. Something was a little too much for my system.

Yeah, always. And that's why, like, I tell patients, like, literally, like they tell you to do five drops three times a day or eight drops twice a day. That's like, I literally put it in bold, exclamation red. You're going to start with like one or two drops. And almost everybody. And I have to say, since I practiced mostly in New York for a very long time, New York patients, they cannot handle like high doses of anything. From my experience, maybe just my patients, but, you know, they're in a toxic city. You know, there's a lot of energy there that's, I mean, it's environmental toxins. So you're just like, with these numbers, they're opening up your detox pathways. So if you're already toxic and you're just like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go for straight eight drops twice a day. I mean, I have had patients be like, oh my God. And they don't read the thing and they tell me how horrible they felt and then they feel like, oh my God, I should have read. But then that's a learning lesson for them and it's learning lesson for me to make sure that I keep telling patients because they think if it's not go big or go home, they think it's not doing anything right. Like if I don't do a 45 minute workout or an hour workout, it's nothing, you know, if I don't take the max. But she's like, you know, people will say, I just got to get it over with. I just got to, I just got to get it. I'm like, yeah, but you're actually prolonging this because then you feel so, you know, crappy for say, a week. And then you're, we're behind now.

It's like you're. It backfires and start over. Yeah, it's so true. And it's, I see that too in New York. I wonder how much of that is kind of New York culture. But also, I think it's, it's common kind of like, it's cultural anyway, is we think. Like, you're saying, we compare ourselves. We always think we're not. It's not good enough. We have to do more or better. And actually, for healing the body, sometimes it's a matter of. Of doing less and being gentle with yourself. That's right. That's what I'm hearing from you is.

One of the less.

And then being willing to learn. Like, look at it all as a learning opportunity.

It really is, and it's taught me. I remember this one patient in New York, she was begging me for detox. And I normally never, ever detox anyone, especially with these. Until, like, month two. Like, they're getting on basics, right. They're eating better, they're drinking water, they're taking their vitamin D, their probiotics. They're doing, like, basic things their body needs. And then I'll give them detox. But this one woman had a very strong personality. No, I can handle it.

Like, okay.

And then she sent me an email.

I'm laughing.

She sent me an email saying, I'm going to divorce my husband, quit my job. Like, I don't know. My kids are going crazy because I'm going crazy. Like, what did you give me? I'm like, I knew it. Like, after that, I'm like, I'm not letting any patient dictate what I'm giving to them. So, you know, it's like. Like I said, it's like that, especially that New Yorker. In a lot of us, we just feel like we got to get it done. And then we're crying and being like, what? What did I just do? To myself? Yeah.

And I think sometimes realizing, like, in a bigger way, what are we doing to ourselves, pushing ourselves so much to perform more, do more, when really what we probably need is just a little more compassion. And that's when it opens up this window of opportunity to look at trauma, because to process trauma, you really need that. Having that loving kindness towards yourself.

I think even that shift you're talking about opens up the door to going deeper.

Absolutely. And maybe the part of them that wants to almost, like, push through and be, like, be so harsh with their body is, again, it's almost like a trauma response. Like, oh, I don't really. It's like we kind of lose sense of that, like, love with ourselves. Right. And we just want to end up pushing ourselves so much, you know? And then. And then again, then it's just like that vicious cycle. It just keeps going from there, you know, it's like a lot Deeper than that. Like, the patients who want to push through the most, it's usually there's something deeper underneath that, that they just can't slow down with themselves or they don't feel that they're worth going, you know, or worth caring for. Maybe in a way, you know.

Yeah, those are really, you know, thoughts that sometimes we might have, but we don't always share. So I'm so glad you're, you're mentioning it and helping people to know that it. There are such, there is such a thing as a safety space to, to look at these maybe core wounds and limiting beliefs, or however you want to call it, that might be kind of creating that repeating pattern in your life. And if you're tired of being in that, you're like, you keep waking up going, oh my gosh, this happened again.

Why does this keep happening? And then you keep asking yourself, like, and then what is it? The biggest question is like, how does. What is your secondary gain from that illness? And I wrote a post about that and I remember someone had asked me that at one time, and it's very eye opening. You're like, what do you mean? How can I have a gain from my illness? But there's so much. And a patient just said the other day too, well, what could I be gaining from this? I'm like, there's a lot. You're gaining this attention, like from your parents, you're gaining attention from health care providers. And this is not saying their symptoms are not real. And they're saying this is like a Munchausen's thing. This is. They literally created these symptoms from this, their nervous system. Right. And this dysregulation. And it's almost like.

What are they getting? Right? Like, let's just say someone had a trauma where they didn't feel safe. And then the sickness that they have is keeping them isolated. Right? So they're safe, but then they're miserable because they can't socialize. They're miserable because they can't, they can't be in normal day life. But there's a part of them that feels safe. You know, it's like, what are you gaining from your illness? And how do you do. You keep identifying with it. And it's hard to tell people that because you can get very defensive. But it's nice conversation to have because it kind of like we said before, plants that seed. Just like the people who don't remember maybe anything in their childhood. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, I think there is that amount of self reflection when we, when we feel like we can almost set aside that ego that's been created to protect us and kind of have those moments of self reflection and self love, then that's sometimes when we really discover our true selves and our path to healing.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I want to make sure people know how to find you because. And connect with you.

So Your website is naturallysue.com naturallysue.com My Instagram is Dr. So Dr. Dr. Susan C. As in cats. What else do I have? Yeah. And then now my way on my website has everything, and that's social media. I'm mostly on Instagram, mostly on stories. We'll be doing more posts soon. It's very hard when you're taking care of patients to do all these posts, but I'm doing my best. So mostly on stories as well as possible.

Amazing. With Instagram stories, anyone just needs a little, like, encouragement and, you know, thank you. You know, you just really share a lot there and very vulnerably. And, and I think, yeah, that helps. That's modeling to people. Hey, how can even a naturopathic physician be vulnerable about her experience and what's helping? So, you know, I really think that's amazing what you're doing.

Thank you so much. It's not easy, but it's nice when people, you know, recognize it and even the patients or the followers, like, just even the messages I'll get once a week, like, thank you for speaking on this. It's exactly how I feel. I'm like, okay, it's like that weekly. You're right. You got to keep doing it no matter how comfortable it feels. It's like helping people. So.

We'Re all in this together. We're all just humans in this human experience. And, you know, we can, by acknowledging that, you know, that as doctors, we're people too. And we can, we're willing to. If we're willing to share our experience with others and learn from our patients, we can help more people. And that's a beautiful thing.

Exactly. And the last thing. That's why. So me and this nurse practitioner, she's a Reiki master. And we're thinking of doing. We're going to be doing a group program where we're going to talk about the emotional causes for every illness. And then we're going to kind of do like a. She's going to do Reiki on everybody, distance wise. So we're going to do that because what we see every day is people who, people who have sicknesses and they don't know why emotionally, you know, or what's driving them emotionally. So we're going to be doing that because I feel like a lot we have to bring more attention to this emotional because we're, you know, if we're not going to, you know, the medical doctors and some of them are amazing, but some of their medical doctors are not looking at these things. So I feel like it's like our duty as naturopaths to make sure we're addressing people's mental health.

I love it. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

You're welcome. So good to connect with you and I look forward to connecting again soon.

Thank you so much.

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