#163 HPV: How To Get Rid of It

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson and today's podcast is going to be about HPV virus and why it is that women are having such a hard time clearing this virus and getting it to negative. This just so happens to be something that I've been paying attention to and helping women with for over 20 years, 3 years. Even. When I was in my training at Bastyr University, I was specializing in women's health and already starting to work with women with HPV and abnormal Pap smears, and have been ever since then. And I've accumulated a lot of experience and watching the research and observing my patients. And so I'm collecting all of this information and data that I really feel needs to be out there in the world. I'm working on documenting it and writing about it, but even before I'm able to present it in that format, I feel so strongly that this information needs to be out there because I'm talking to women every day from around the world who are struggling to protect themselves from the HPV virus. So today I want to focus on why is this my wrist turning up positive for so many women, and what can women do to help protect themselves? Because certain strains of the HPV virus are known to be associated with certain types of cancer. So just briefly, the HPV virus that we talk about as a single virus is actually over 150 different strains or types of the virus. And some of those, at least about 13 that we know of, are associated with being what are called high risk strains that can be associated with cancer risk. Usually it's cancer of the cervix. For women, the vagina could also be anal or oral cancer. And HPV virus can also cause cancer for men in penile cancer, anal cancer, oral cancer. So this is also a virus that I think men are becoming more aware of and interested in protecting themselves from. It's just that screening is not so available for men anywhere that I'm aware of in the world at this point in time. And so a lot of times men only find out that they have these high risk strains of HPV when they develop cancer. And I really hope that changes in the near future. But for today, I'm going to focus on women because women are being tested for hpv. In fact, women are more often being tested for hpv. So that's part of the reason that more women are turning up positive or finding out that they are positive for HPV simply because doctors are testing it more now. In the past, we only tested it when there was abnormal cells on the cervix. Now most doctors will test hpv. When women go in for a Pap smear, it is important to get Pap smears. I want to be clear about that. I also trained in offering Pap smears. Right now most of my practice is helping women online once they already, or virtually on the Internet once they already receive their Pap results from their doctor. But I want everyone to know that I am a professional, trained practitioner and I would and could offer Pap smears in my office if someone needed. Because to me, I'm very grateful for this technology, which was actually developed based on a woman's cells, that helped us to understand how women's cells are affected by this virus. So thank goodness we have this information because with a Pap smear and the, and the subsequent types of biopsy, we're able to identify when the cells on the cervix are being affected by the HPV virus even before it gets to the point of cancer. And that's really good news because that means if we can catch it earlier before cancer, that means we can be proactive and prevent it from becoming cancer. Now the thing is, is that in the standard medical gynecological world, everywhere that I talk to patients from around the world and this seems to be rather consistent. No matter if you're in Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, US, even South America, same thing is happening where you go in for the Pap smear and that doctor is more likely to be checking for HPV and they, if they find abnormal cells, what are called abnormal cells, on a gradation, before it becomes cancer, then the doctor might say to you, well, let's wait and see if it turns into cancer, or let's do a biopsy and double check. If it's, if the Pap smear matches, if, if the, if it's worse than what the Pap smear shows, and if it is getting closer to cancer, what's called CIN 2 or 3 or a high grade abnormality to the cells, then the doctor can remove those abnormal cells either With a leap procedure or various around the world, different versions of a LEEP procedure, which is usually a laser treatment, or they can use a more surgical procedure to remove part of the cervix. And this way they're removing the abnormal cells before they become cancer. Thank goodness. But what currently is the situation is that in conventional medicine, they don't have a way to kill the virus. So that means that even if the cells are removed, that HPV virus can continually cause more abnormal cells for women. And so women find themselves in this repeat cycle and pattern of having to be going in and getting checked and then finding out whether there are advanced cells or not having them removed, and then worrying in the meantime whether it's going to happen all over again. And the thing is, is that I was in that same. I was trained the same way, you know, over 23 years ago, I was trained in the same. I was trained that there are ways that we can try to prevent the cancer from developing. And this is all based on research. I can. With this episode, I will. I will also list some references so that those of you who like to see them, what science and research exists, then you can look at that. Of course, there's not research on all of what I'm going to be sharing, because I'm sharing from my clinical experience as well. And so the thing to know is that there are natural substances, from dietary changes to nutrients in clinical doses, as well as herbs and plants and mushrooms and a lot of substances from nature that have been shown to help prevent those cells from advancing to cancer. And some of these treatments also are aimed at helping your immune system protect you from the virus. Some of them are actually antiviral. Some of them are helping the immune system to be better at. At preventing this virus from causing abnormal cells. And the research is working in various ways to help, as you can imagine, help our immune system and directly go after the virus, Whether they are used oral doses, so it's affecting systemically through the whole body, or some of these substances are used vaginally, including probiotics. There's actually research now on the use of probiotics or healthy bacteria vaginally to help prevent this virus from causing abnormal cells. So that's exciting and wonderful. And I recommend, and I help patients with all of those tools. And the thing that I want to emphasize is especially the women who are doing all of that, because I hear from so many women who are, they're already making dietary changes and eating healthy. They're already exercising. They're already trying these Tools, right? They may have already been taking different vitamins and herbs and mushroom extracts to attempt to prevent this virus from causing abnormal cells. And yet sometimes they've been dealing this with this for years. Some of them have been taking high doses of different supplements and trying all different things that they try to find on the Internet or from various sources, trying to get this virus to leave them alone. And I'm so glad that women are being proactive. That's one thing I've seen over the past couple decades, is more and more women are saying, wait a minute, this is not okay with me. I'm not okay with just waiting for the next procedure and worrying whether I'm going to have cancer. Women are saying, I want to do something to prevent this, even if it means changing my diet, even if it means buying supplements. And so I'm definitely seeing that trend. But at the same time, I'm also seeing a trend where more and more women are not clearing this virus as effectively, I think, as the past research. There's a study from 2013, so this is 10 years ago from now, and the research from 10 years ago showed that 90% of women will clear this virus within two years of it being identified. 90%. And that means 10% did not clear it within two years. And it's considered then a persistent HPV. So I asked, first of all, there's two things from that. One is it's possible for the human body to clear this virus. So I really want you all to know that it's possible for the human body to clear the HPV virus. Research is showing that. And so that is something we can aim for. That can be our goal. It also says, well, why are the 10% not clearing the virus? Because if we can learn from the 10% who are not clearing the virus, then we can help them to get into the percent that are clearing the virus. And that's how my strategy has worked over the past couple decades when I work with my patients is I ask that question, how do I move my patients who have persistent HPV into the group who have now cleared it? And by asking that question, I've been able to identify the most common reasons why women are not clearing it and how to help them successfully clear it. Because so many women are existing day in and day out feeling like they have their. They have no options, that they're stuck with this virus and they're stuck with the cancer risk. And it's a really, really not only an awful, awful feeling, but it's awful that they're having to feel that because I see a different way. I see that if we can identify the reasons it's not clearing, then we can address those reasons. So the most common things I see that are reasons why women are not clearing it even after this is even after they're making diet changes, even after they're taking the supplements that the research indicates, even after that, if they're still not clearing it. That's what I'm talking about. Why? Why not? And one I immediately think of especially related to the past five years is the pandemic that we all just went through. The pandemic was stressful for humans on many levels. Physically stressful from all the exposures related to that virus. And also mentally, emotionally, spiritually stressful, just going through a pandemic. And, and I can show references for this too, to show that it has been demonstrated that when women are under more stress, psychological stress, emotional stress, physical stress, they are more likely to have HPV be positive and they're more likely for HPV to be persistently positive. So I immediately think of the effects of stress and I think that the more that women are under stress, the more likely they're going to have persistent hpv. And the thing is that.

Even though that's well understood, it's not always talked about. And oftentimes women, if a doctor is familiar with that, they might just send the woman out the door saying, decrease your stress. Which is easier said than done, right? Like if we just receive that, oh, just decrease your stress. Women are like, well, how am I supposed to decrease my stress now I just have the stress of how do I decrease my stress? And so this is where my stress recovery protocol can really benefit, be a benefit and a help. Because what I do and what I've done with my also my work over the years is to figure out how do we effectively, step by step, actually recover from stress while still living our daily lives. Because most times women are also have a career or they're graduate students or they have other things to do in their lives. They have financial stresses, they have family stresses, they have. They. There's things that are going on in their lives that they can't just necessarily walk away from. So they need to know how to recover from stress while in the stress. And that to me, is a really important thing to be able to offer for women that's not being offered in most practitioners offices. And so I want to just emphasize that, that one of the main reasons why I think the women are not clearing HPV as easily is because of the stress exposure and the lack of stress recovery. And I'll put resources for how you can access more information about my stress recovery protocol, including in my book Master Stress Reset yout House. Understand how stress is affecting you, including your cortisol and adrenaline levels. We're not all affected the same. Some of us might have high cortisol, some low cortisol, some high adrenaline, some low adrenaline. Our adrenal glands and our sympathetic parasympathetic nervous systems are affected differently to the same stress. So we need to know your individual response to stress in order to help you solve it. And so that's what I do through my stress recovery protocol is in my stress type quiz is help you understand exactly how stress has affected you so that we can guide you to efficiently recover from it and stay recovered from stress. So I want you to know there are answers and solutions. To me, it doesn't make sense to point things out unless I have a solution for you. So I, I'm going to be finding things that there are solutions for. I was going to say related to the pandemic, by the way. For a lot of women, what happened is during the pandemic they did not get Pap smears, right? We weren't, we didn't have as much access to gynecological care. Sometimes doctors offices were not open. And so women went longer without getting a Pap smear during the pandemic. And now where we are here, kind of after the pandemic in 2023, women are going in for their Pap smear after sometimes longer than, than they usually would have waited and finding out that they have HPV and maybe more advanced cells because there was a delay. So I also think that more women are finding out about this right now because of that kind of pandemic delay that happened. And then they're realizing, oh my gosh, now we have so much awareness for viruses because of COVID brought so much more awareness for how viruses can affect us. And I think we have a heightened awareness for, wow, I need to do something to protect myself from HPV virus. And it's not going to help to just wear a face mask because of course this is something we get exposed through by sexual activity. Now I always like to emphasize that most all of us, the research shows have been exposed to HPV at some point in our lives. So this is not associated with high risk sexual activity. This is a virus that most of all of us been exposed to because we're human and humans have sex and humans are going to get exposed to hpv. So to me, it's not so much an exposure risk because most all of us are exposed, even with one sexual partner. So it's not about that. To me, it's about what's making you susceptible. Again, back to, why are women not clearing this virus? We get exposed, but why are we not clearing it? Okay, my number one point was stress exposure and lack of stress recovery. That's number one. And I encourage all of you listening to go, if you're not doing a lot of stress recovery, especially based on my protocol to optimize your, your adrenal function and your parasympathetic sympathetic nervous system, then you gotta start there. You've gotta start there. And then the next thing is the disruptions in the microbiome. More and more research is, is validating this, which I've been working on for many years with women, which is this connection between our microbiome. We usually think of the microbiome in the gut, but actually we have a biome in the vaginal area, and we have biome everywhere in our bodies. Everywhere you can think of. On our skin, in the uterus, Everything you can think of, there's healthy bacteria, which is, is what we think of as the microbiome. It's actually more than just bacteria. It's healthy microbes. And these microbes that live with us and on us and in us, they talk to our immune system and they help protect us. Right? Like, so we need to learn that, like, it's not that all microbes are bad, it's that we want a healthy balance of the microbes that help protect us. And it turns out, and we learned this through Covid too, is that when people have a healthier gut microbiome, healthier balance of microbes in their gut, it actually protects them from COVID and Covid complications. So same thing with hpv. If we have a healthier gut biome, that means we're going to have a healthier vaginal biome. It's going to help protect us from hpv. Well, what are the things that disrupt our biome? Stress. Right back to stress again. And different kinds of toxins and medications, including antibiotic use. So if you swallow an antibiotic, not only is it killing bacteria wherever you're trying to kill them, but it's going to kill bacteria in your gut and it's going to kill bacteria vaginally. That's why when women take an oral antibiotic, they're way more likely to end up with a vaginal yeast infection because it disrupted their vaginal biome and then the yeast were able to overgrow or sometimes there's overgrowth of bacteria vaginally, which is currently referred to as BV or bacterial vaginosis, which is essentially overgrowth of bacteria vaginally. And when that happens, we know that women are more likely to have positive hpv. So overall, if you think of the vaginal biome as the balance of healthy microbes and bacteria that should be there, even if there's a little bit of HPV hanging out there, the body should be able to manage that microbiome can help you manage those that that population and prevent the HPV from causing issues. So when we are exposed to stress and toxins and pesticides, let's say from non organic food, and we're exposed to medications and antibiotics and other substances that disrupt our gut biome and our vaginal biome, including if it could be exposure to spermicides, for example, anything you might be using vaginally that disrupts the ph and the microbiome. Now it's, it's sort of almost like the HPV is able to hang around and cause trouble because you don't have enough protection from your healthy biome. So this I think is becoming much more common from various exposures that women have. And unfortunately then this HPV is more able to be present and more able to cause abnormal cells. So we need this. Also we can address, this is something that I help women address in my practice every day. We can re optimize the gut biome, we can re optimize the vaginal biome and I can put point to some other articles and podcasts to give you hope. I want you to know just because your biome gets disrupted doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. We can actually solve it. Now I know a lot of practitioners out there are not really versatile, versed in how to do that. So that's why I like to offer help with that. And I work with people both one on one and in groups to help them get their biome back on track again. It is possible. I want you to know that it is possible and it is possible to get your biome protecting you from hpv, let alone everything else that needs to protect you from. We can get that back again. I'm really excited to open enrollment in my new 14 day detox program. It's based on my experience spending 16 days in the Amazon and I realized I really want to be able to support all of you, to see safely and Effectively detox from home. The 14 day detox includes a kit with protein powder, including antioxidants to support liver detoxification as well as an anti inflammatory diet plan, daily videos and tips from me, as well as my self care notebook and lots of encouragement to spend time in nature to reach reset your circadian rhythm. I want you to be able to detox your mind, body and spirit so you can get back to balance and move forward in your life with resilience. I can't wait for you to join me in this transformational process. The other thing that can happen in the gut that I find increases risk of HPV is what's called leaky gut. And leaky gut is when the intestinal cells are not as healthy as they should be. Intestinal cells make up the walls of the intestines and our body makes new intestinal cells all the time. But when we're under stress and when our vaginal biome or in our gut biome is out of balance, it damages the gut lining. These gut cells can't replicate and recover as quickly. And so we end up with an intestinal wall that's not as healthy as it could be. And more inflamed, it's more reactive. We start developing food sensitivities, which is inflammatory responses to our food, sometimes even healthy foods. Our immune system starts trying to protect us from them. But the food is not the problem necessarily. It's usually that the intestinal cells are not healthy because of the lack of stress recovery and the imbalanced biome. Certain foods like gluten is known to cause leaky gut. However, that's not necessarily a little bit of gluten shouldn't be a problem in a healthy body. The problem is it becomes this perfect storm of stress imbalanced biome, then the gluten joins the party, causing more and more inflammation and more and more leaky gut. And then you become more and more nutrient depleted. So this is another reason why it's harder for women to clear the virus is because nutrient deficiencies start to develop. We're not absorbing our nutrients as well because the intestinal cells are not as healthy. Even if you're eating healthiest, healthy, healthy food every day, if you have leaky gut and imbalanced biome, you're probably not going to benefit from those healthy foods and nutrients. Also, many things cause more nutrient deficiencies, including certain medications such as birth control pills. And more and more women are on birth control pills. These are synthetic hormones that have been shown to increase risk of HPV and these birth control pills are known to cause nutrient deficiencies. So women who've been on birth control pills, sometimes for decades are then finding out that they have hpv. Well, why is that? Well, because the synthetic hormones, now research shows increased risk of hpv, and part of it is because of the nutrient deficiencies, such as the B vitamin deficiencies that are caused by taking these synthetic hormones. It's not to say that all hormones cause this. It's that it's not the case. As far as we know from bioidentical natural hormones, for example, some now more often post menopausal women might be taking bioidentical estrogens or progesterones. Those don't seem to be increasing risk. In fact, what I'm seeing is it's when women have a deficiency of vaginal estrogen postmenopausally, they have an increased risk. So it's, you have to see, what age are you, where are your hormones in order to address it appropriately. If you're on a birth control pill and have synthetic hormones, those can cause risk for a different reason than someone who's postmenopausal having low hormones, low vaginal estrogen in particular, that's a different sort of risk that may be making it harder for you to clear hpv. So those things need to be addressed on an individual basis. So you see, sometimes it's hormone imbalances that are perpetuating HPV virus, and sometimes it's from a medication that's making you more susceptible. So it's important to consider all of these things. Women then say to me, well, should I not be taking a birth control pill? And I can't answer that question for you right here and now. But what I want to invite you to do is just reconsider. Because another thing that I do, and I know my colleagues do, is help women to get their menstrual cycle and their ovaries back to working in sync and functioning well and keeping balanced hormones. So because a lot of women take birth control pills because of irregular cycles, painful periods, heavy bleeding, and so they, the gynecologist puts them on a birth control pill. However, in and from a naturopathic perspective, there's so much I can do to address those things. I can help your ovaries ovulate regularly and we can help prevent painful periods and heavy bleeding without the need for a birth control pill. So I want you again to know that there's other ways to solve this, that if you're, if you're on a birth control pill and you have hpv, and you're like, wait a minute, I don't want to be at risk of cancer. What else can I do? Please know that there are ways we can help get your menstrual cycle on track, ovulating without being in pain, using natural substances so that you, you don't have to be at risk and you don't have to be in pain. So just know these options are available and at the same time, then you're able to clear the virus and then get out of this cancer risk zone. Okay, so the other reason why I think women are more not clearing this virus as quickly is because of.

I mentioned toxin exposure briefly, but I want to emphasize that I'm finding more and more people who have been exposed to mold toxins. This is a test we can do. It's a more recently developed urine test that shows us if there's mold toxins in your body, if you think you've been exposed to mold, if you've seen mold in the, in the buildings where you live or work, then we need to know, do you have mold toxins in your body? Because those mold toxins can suppress your immune function and make you susceptible to all different kinds of infections and imbalances of the microbiome and leaky gut and hpv. So we need to address the toxins. There's many other toxins we're also exposed to in our food, in our water, in our, in our homes, in our utensils and, and furniture. And so it's really important to, if you have persistent hpv, to go through a process of identifying where are you getting exposed to toxins and help your body get those toxins out. So we. I can also help you with that. That's why I developed the detox program, is because I really want to help people to get the toxins out and reset their system, but without feeling worse. So many detoxes and cleanses out there, people go through it and end up feeling worse. And to me, that's just because it's pushing too hard in the wrong directions. There's. That should not be the case. It's possible to get the toxins out without making you feel worse. And I think that we should really be as practitioners, holding ourselves to a higher standard to be able to do that, to be able to help people to get the toxins out without making things worse. And I really had to do that because I'm. I've had toxins in me, and I'm a very sensitive person. So I needed to figure out how to detoxify myself without making myself feel worse. And. And that's how I figured out that it's possible, and that's how I guide others to do it. So I'll put a link to my detox program so you can learn more about it. We need to become more aware of what we're exposed to in our environment so that we can choose intentionally. Not that we become obsessed about it, but that we become more intentional about what we're. How do we keep our air as clean as possible? How do we, you know, keep. Choose foods that are not contaminated with toxins as best as possible so that we can maintain our health? The other area that's related to this that I want to mention as a reason why it's hard for women to clear HPV is because of what's called methylation. Methylation is part of our detoxification. In the liver, one of the processes is methylation. Methylation has to do with the use of B vitamins. Be like boy B vitamins our body uses to detoxify toxins. But methylation is also used for many other purposes in the human body, including making healthy cells and making neurotransmitters and breaking down neurotransmitters and protecting our DNA. So if we're not, our bodies are not able to. Even if you're swallowing the best B vitamins, but if your body's not able to effectively use those B vitamins to protect you and make healthy cells, then you become more susceptible to HPV causing abnormal cells. And the thing is, is that we know that over 40% of people have a gene variation that affects their methylation. It's called the MTHFR gene. And MTHFR gene is quite common. Whether you have one or two variations. I have two of them. So I also had to figure this out over a decade ago. And now I specialize in helping people who are not getting helped related to MTHFR and methylation because it happens to be something that I've also developed a protocol around. And I'm happy for you to learn more about it. I'll put a link to a video where I talk about that specifically and how I help people to optimize their methylation and address MTHFR successfully. So the key here is to understand that most practitioners don't know about this. Most practitioners have heard that with with HPV and abnormal cells that women should take folic acid. But actually for more than 40% of women who have this gene variation, they should not be taking folic acid, they need to be taking methyl folate. And I actually recommend that for everyone who has, I mean everyone in general, but definitely anyone who has HPV and abnormal cells, we should be using methyl folate, which is the active folk form of folate, not folic acid. Even though the older research is all about folic acid. That was before we found out about mthfr. So that needs to be updated. And we need to be using methylfolate. So please check your multi, your B complex, your prenatal vitamin and make sure it has methylfolate non folic acid. And from there, if you're wondering if you have an MTHFR gene variation, you can be tested for that either in standard blood work or specialty genetic tests. Again, I'll put more information for you down below if you want to find out about this. But the key is to understand that why is it that methylation isn't working? Well, it's not just about taking more methylfolate, by the way. You could turn on the faucet and push in more methylfolate, but if the system isn't using it efficiently, you're not going to get very far. It's like there's a traffic jam in the body's ability to even use healthy active folate. What's causing the traffic jam? Well, we go back to the top of our list of today. The stress without enough stress recovery affects your ability to use B vitamins. Imbalanced gut bacteria, we know that imbalanced microbiome decreases your ability to use B vitamins effectively. We also know that leaky gut, which causes inflammation in the body decreases your ability to use B vitamins efficiently. We also know that toxins of various types decrease your ability to use B vitamins efficiently. And different medications also do the same thing. So it's no wonder that with these exposures and women not being able to efficiently use their B vitamins, if they're even taking the right form, it's no wonder we're more susceptible to having abnormal cells caused by hpv. So ultimately, to me, it's by solving these things that I just mentioned. When we can solve those things, then we can protect you. You, your body can protect you from hpv. You can actually even have your body clear this virus just like the other people in the research and be able to move on with your life without having to constantly worry about it. Not only that, but then you feel better because you've addressed the most common causes of most other health issues in the process. When you recover from stress, rebalance your microbiome, heal leaky gut, rebalance your hormones, restore healthy nutrient levels, restore healthy ability to detoxify. You've now much more likely to have better energy, mood, focus, sleep, and less likely to have any other health issues like autoimmunity and so on. So this is how I think about the way to really solve the HPV epidemic is not just by, yes, I do like to use herbs and nutrients that help our immune system go directly after the virus. Vitamin C, mushroom extracts, wonderful, beautiful, amazing research and amazing clinical outcomes simply by going after the virus with vitamins, herbs and mushrooms. Yes. But what I find is it's not enough. If we don't dig in to the reasons you're susceptible in the first place. The root causes of why that virus is hanging out here in the first place is just going to come back again. And so you end up in this vicious cycle and you end up feeling frustrated because you're like, I'm doing all this good stuff, but the virus is still here. And I would say it's because we haven't addressed these underlying causes, because the women who work with me to address those causes, they end up not only reversing abnormal cells, but getting HPV to negative and keeping it negative. I've. There's patients I worked with over 15 years ago who have been able to keep HPV negative all this time because we got to the underlying cause.

So I hope that really helps you get a better understanding of, of why HPV might be hanging around longer than it should be, and also to feel empowered and optimistic and hopeful that there are actually ways you can protect yourself. You're not. To me, I, and this is why I'm doing this, sharing this information is because I believe that women should not have to go through every day and every year afraid of this virus causing cancer, that I don't want to be walking around in fear of this virus causing cancer. I want to know that I can take steps to help protect myself and have my body protect me from this virus. So that's what I'm hoping you get from this episode. If you have any questions or concerns, please reach out to me. I'm happy to share and again, I'll continue to share and information as I learn it, as I notice it and observe it, as I learn it, from my patients and the women that I'm helping. And so more and more and more people can benefit from this because I truly believe from what I've seen that we can shift these numbers, we can help more and more, not only women but also men be able to clear this virus and not be at cancer risk from it. Thanks again for joining me for How Humans Heal. And definitely you're welcome to continue to join me by however you're listening. If you want to subscribe or if you want to sign up for my weekly newsletter and I'll notify you each Thursday when the next episode is out. All right, I look forward to talking to you soon.

Thanks for listening to How Humans Heal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review, and for more resources, visit drdani.com.