#164 How to Have a Successful Relationship with Sandy Weiner

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Hi and welcome to How Humans Heal Today. I'm excited to introduce you to Sandy Weiner. She is founder of Last First Date and the Women of Value. She's an internationally known TEDx speaker and dating and relationship coach, as well as women's empowerment coach. She's an author of two and almost now three books and a podcast host. I was really a privilege to get to be on her podcast and now she and I get to talk about Sandy today. So thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, it's so good to be with you again, Dani. I loved having you on my show.

Yeah. And this is such a, you know, I think such an important topic in that. I don't know, I think I have the perception that, that maybe more people are dating lately and even more beyond dating. I think it's, it's really like about how we can know ourselves and interact with other humans in a way that can be more successful in relationships in general. So anyway, before we dive into all of that, I'd love to know more about what even brought you to have an interest in helping people with relationships and dating.

My own failures, and that's usually what we. What motivates us is I was brought up by two parents who had a terrible marriage. There was a lot of chaos in the home, yelling and terrible communication and they just didn't belong together. But I remember when I was 16, I came to my mom and I said, why are you married to dad? It's really unpleasant being in this house. Like, I had a lot of self awareness from a young age and I was the go to person in high school. Everybody who had problems came to me to help me work them out. And I think over time I just realized that I have an affinity for understanding people. So in college I studied art therapy, which was a combination of art, which I was always identified as an artist, but also therapy. I didn't really love the program, dropped out of that, ended up with a degree in art and just kind of got married, created a lot of art, four kids, just created, created a lot of things and people and My marriage, I thought I was really doing the right thing by marrying somebody who I chose with my head versus my heart. I just wanted to be safe. And I thought this was the right thing to do. And I thought it was being so smart to choose a man who seemed to have really good values, which I think he does. But the communication between us was not good and I didn't know how to. To make it work. I tried everything in my power, but I didn't have a husband who really could be part of the equation in a way that really was effective. And I had a lot to learn. So I divorced him after about 23 years. And it gave me an opportunity to kind of reassess my life. Like, what do I want to do now? I have an opportunity to begin again. And I saw it as a way to kind of reclaim the parts of me that had been lost along the way. And one of those was that therapeutic piece. And so I found coaching. A friend of mine had just come from the core curriculum of the coaching school. I went to the coaches training institute. And she was a brilliant woman who I really trusted. And I just. That was it. I made up my mind to go and it changed my life in so many ways. It gave me so much self awareness, which is really the first step in all of this work. And then after a couple of years of being a coach, I kind of started helping friends who were dating way before I was ready to date and making a mess of it. And so I was like. I realized I was good at that and at like just recognizing how my friends were miscommunicating with men and under. Underrepresenting themselves in their profiles on online dating and just all of these things that just kind of. Even though I knew nothing about any of this, since I hadn't dated since I was in my 20s, I just sort of fell into this and didn't even know it was a career. And then, you know, one thing led to the next. I became a dating and relationship coach. And it's a process. It really became a whole maturation process for me as well, like learning the deeper parts of D and communication skills and boundary setting and a lot of learning. And a lot of years later. I think I've been doing this for 14 years now, and I absolutely love what I do. And it's changed lives, it's changed my life, it's changed the lives of my clients. Brings me joy every day.

Oh, that's wonderful. So do you work with people one on one then to help them or how Are you helping people with dating?

Yeah, mostly one on one. I have a number of just one on one clients, mostly women. I also work with a few men who are coachable and have heard me mostly on my podcast and have asked me, do you know anybody for me? And I say, let's talk. And they turn out to be really receptive. And I have a monthly subscription group, a program called the Woman of Value Club, where I coach in these small groups. I bring on experts and we talk about relevant topics and do a masterclass every month. And I teach courses live and also diy and I write books and I do the podcasts and lots of ways.

Lots of ways people can connect with you and to get help from you. So, I mean, I'm just hearing your story, which is so inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, to choose to get divorced after 23 years, I mean, I think that's. That's a big decision. You know, when you. And maybe you had been thinking about it for a number of years before, and then you're finally like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. It's. I think that. I don't know, my perception is that I think a lot more people, especially women, but probably also men, are making that choice to say, hey, maybe this isn't the relationship I want to be in for the rest of my life. And I'm. And I'm. And maybe I'm ready to make that big decision to end this relationship and then find out what else is out there for me. Are you here? Do you feel that, too? Are you here? You think there's more people making that choice?

I think a lot of people make that choice later in life, in their 40s, in their 50s, and even older. It's a time when your kids are grown. Usually if you have kids, you're starting to see, hey, I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with this partner who I don't really enjoy being with. It doesn't feel safe anymore. Yeah. So I think a lot, A lot more people take that leap. You know, I don't think divorce is the right thing for a lot of people. I do think it is for other people, and I think you have to assess for yourself. But I see so many people who stay in terrible relationships, and that breaks my heart where it's the same complaint every single time. I would talk to these people, friends of mine, and can you believe he did this? And I'm like, yeah, I would be sure shocked if he did. Something else, because this is the way he's always been. And you're choosing to stay. Why are you choosing to stay? And for a lot of people, it feels safer. It's scary to go out on your own, and the money isn't always there. And I had no idea what I was going to do, how I was going to pay my bills. I just knew I had to save myself. And I knew I'd figure it out because I'm resilient. And I had just started my certification program. I did not have a steady career. I was working as an artist my entire marriage. And I also supported my husband's career. He is a comedian and a puppeteer. And I would write with him and then take care of the kids. And it was like just juggling a lot of balls in the air. And I knew I'd figure it out. I had no idea how. I did a lot of little jobs to pay my bills and was very frugal. And you have to believe in what you're. What you're doing, why you're leaving. I think that most people are afraid to leave if there's not somebody else in the picture. And like, you want to. You want to leave because there's some safety net there, but there's often no safety net. And I think you have to really weigh, how do you want to live the rest of your life?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It already is a journey within. And I was gonna say that, like, a lot of times, I mean, I've seen this for myself and other patients, that sometimes we come out of one relationship, and if we. If we're not doing some internal work, we're very likely to choose into some of those same patterns. I'm curious about your. Your take on that. You know, like, is what is that human nature to end up in a similar type of relationship again, you know, so. Because this, I'm sure, comes into play with dating, right. If we. We just. We're dating, but we end up right back in a similar type situation we just came out of.

Absolutely. Which is one of the reasons I wrote the book Choice Points in Dating. Because we. We often make the same choices over and over and don't even realize it. We're blindsided. We can't believe this person hurt us. And. Or we go to the opposite extreme. We'll go to. Okay, so the person I was with had. We had these problems. So I'm going to go to the opposite. You know, he was too passive. So I'm going to go to somebody who's really not passive at all. But then they turn out to be controlling. It's not just finding the opposite or even just going on attraction, because attraction can usually lead you down the wrong path. It's, it's attraction is hardwired. It's often connected to family of origin stuff. It has to do with what feels familiar even though we don't realize it. It's a lot of it is in the unconscious level. And so when you work with a therapist or a coach who is really trained to do these things, you figure out how, what's your attachment style? How do you attach to partners? Do you tend to be really anxiously attached? And so if you do that, then you become really, you can self sabotage a relationship before it even begins because you are, you're getting really anxious and then you think the person's pulling away when they just had a busy day. And then, you know, you get clingy and that person will want to run away. So knowing these patterns, knowing how to not bring your past into the present, knowing how to self regulate, knowing how to talk about the things that matter, how to bring up hard stuff, how to ask questions when you have questions instead of keeping them internally. These are some of the things that we work on. Before people even go on dates, when they come to me, they take certain assessments. They have to really identify the attachment style. They have to identify the saboteur. So the saboteur voice is how their saboteur shows up within them because that reflects a lot on the decisions that they make. And the last assessment is.

Have them do a wheel of life. So I want to see how their whole life is balanced and where they need to really pay attention so that they can come as a whole to the dating process.

Yeah, it makes sense to me. Like, like if we want to create ourselves, set ourselves up for success and, and hopefully find ourselves in a, in a relationship that is going to be fulfilling and, and loving. We want to prepare ourselves first. Right? We want to. And that involves like really getting to know ourselves maybe at a deeper level than we have before.

Do you find that part of this process is helping people to look at their, maybe either limiting beliefs or emotional wounds or traumas from the past and going through that process as well, a hundred percent.

So they fill out a form, a questionnaire before we even start working together. And we look at the patterns of some of the core relationships, the most important relationships of their lives and what they have in common. We look at the limiting beliefs, the limiting voices, where they're Struggling the most. I mean, we really go deep into who are you? And then we can identify who would be a good match for you. And you have to get really clear about these things. People are often so misguided around.

What are their core values like people don't need. I mean, this is work I was doing in coaching school. Nobody ever asked me who I was, what my values were. Like, we don't, we don't do that work unless we're conscious of it. And without doing that work, we're kind of stumbling around in the dark. We don't really know what aligns with us, who aligns with us, what work aligns with us. All of those things happen when we get clarity within. And then, you know, I think a lot of the limiting beliefs, I mean I, that's like one of the core things that I do is help, help people to really start to interrogate the truth of their beliefs and I take them through. I love the work of Byron. Katie, the just asking, is this true? And most people will say, yeah, of course it's true, I believe it. And then you say, well do you know, without a doubt, is it true? And then they start to go, well, there's a little bit of a doubt, it's not always true. And then now you're starting to see, okay, so if it's not always true, who would you be without this belief? Can you turn the belief around? And it's really powerful to stop each time you're making up a story, even to know it's a story you're making up. And you know, there's just tons of tools to help with this. But even just separating fact from story and really looking at the stories that we make up from a place of self compassion and self love.

Those are some of the tools that I've used.

Yeah, I can see that. Because we start to realize that so much of when we're in any kind of human interaction, I think so often where we, we could easily be projecting onto the other person without even realizing it until we really know ourselves and we can we really see, oh, this is who I am, what my, like you said, my values, my, my. And how I can meet my own needs versus, you know, constantly projecting on another person, would you say? I mean, I think that that's probably something that comes up often in, in dating and relationships is feeling like, like I need this person. We come in, we come into this dependency with another human.

Yes, we have to really understand what interdependency is which most people were raised with a lot of codependency, and we feel that we need this person to complete us. We're looking for the qualities that we don't have, and they have it. And without them, I'm going to die. I mean, if you look at any song or movie and rom com, it's all terrible, codependent.

So we have to unlearn a lot of societal voices that tell us this is what relationships look like. This is what attraction is. And attraction is usually like, if you're super attracted to somebody, it's usually a terrible sign. Those butterflies, those. That it's anxiety. Usually it's, I hope they like me. You're already putting them on a pedestal, waiting to be chosen, and you feel so lucky that that person chose you. I mean, I spent most of my life in that space, you know.

Yeah, Yeah. I think we're. We're taught, you know, as women from young girls, we're taught that, you know, kind of to. To, yeah. Feel like, oh, I'm the princess or the, you know, and where's the prince? Kind of scenario. And. And. But that's, I think, really, like for you to point out that sometimes if we go by, oh, do I feel attracted, like a. Of, you know, like, feel. Feel that attraction to this other person. But that's not actually probably the best way to determine a relationship that would be good for you.

Not at all. I think that you have to have some attraction, obviously. But if you're so attracted that you lose yourself in that person's presence, that's a horrible sign. And that's something to look at. Like, where did that come from? Who did this person remind me of?

Hmm?

Your father? Was he really cold and abandoned you, and now you're trying to get the attention of somebody who's not giving you attention. Ooh, that feels like attraction. Right? And so you can rewire your brain for healthy attraction. Attractions. As my friend Ken Page, who's an amazing therapist and podcaster of Deeper Dating, he talks about attractions of deprivation and attractions of inspiration. Most of us are stuck in the attraction of deprivation. It's what we don't have. And when we are attracted to somebody in an attraction of inspiration, we're inspired by that person. But we also bring value. That's the interdependence. We have a life. We have wholeness and fullness, but we also have the capacity to allow another person into our life to add value to each other and to complement each other, not complete each other.

Wow. Yeah, that's pretty. That's pretty amazing. That, I mean, how, how wonderful that will be the more that becomes the, you know, the. In the movies, children's movies, and in the songs, right, like how to write songs about, you know, finding interdependence and that reciprocity in relationships. Some of what you're talking about reminds me of what would be considered like being in a relationship with a narcissist or. And I know sometimes that terminology gets thrown around, maybe too often, maybe not as accurately, but it's something that I've been talking about more and researching more, especially with some of the patients that I'm working with. So I wonder if, I mean, if you feel comfortable addressing that a little bit. Do you. Are some of the people you're working with, have they previously been in a narcissistic relationship and now they're wanting to not have that happen again?

Yes, absolutely. So I don't like to use that word either because it does get thrown around too much and I would. So I try to get people away from labels and look at behaviors. So if you were dating or in a relationship with somebody who was self centered and not empathic and they always had to be right and you felt that your needs didn't matter, that's thing, that's something you need to look at. And so I've had clients who come in with these patterns and we first trace where did it come from? Who did that person remind you of? And then you start to rewire your brain for attraction in a healthier way. And one of those is to if you had a pattern of getting sexually involved too soon to not do that because that makes your brain very fuzzy and you're not able to think straight.

If you have that pattern, some people can do it, some people can't. And I don't believe in hard and fast rules. I believe in principles and I believe in self care. And so you have to know how you function best and then advocate for that. So I have a form that I give my clients, it's called an operating manual. And it's really for them, it's for them to fill out, to understand themselves so they can communicate their core needs to the people they're dating. And it's divided into three key areas of attraction and connection. What makes a relationship succeed? So it's the worldview, it's lifestyle and it's sexual. So those are the three key areas. And so when you look at lifestyle, you look at, do I like hot or cold weather? Do I like, am I vegetarian, vegan? Can I be with somebody? Who is a meat eater?

Do I go to bed early or late? They're, you know, introvert, extrovert. How do I replenish my energy? All of those things are important because like, let's say you're traveling with a partner and you're an introvert and you need to have quiet time. I had clients who never asked for quiet time. They would get exhausted, they would get ornery, or you don't eat often enough, maybe you have hypoglycemia and you have to eat more often and you're not eating the right foods. You've got to advocate for those things. I had clients who would go out to restaurants and they were vegetarian and they never said, hey, can we go to a place where we can all eat, not just steakhouse? So it's, it's really important to understand that lifestyle piece. The next one, the worldview, which I think is one of the most important, is how do we see the world? How do we see religion, politics, God, miracles, faith, community, all the things that are the bigger picture, because that's really the core. And then the last category, sex is what kind of sex do you like? It's not just, do we like frequency of sex, how frequent? Maybe both of you like sex once a year. That works for both of you. But if one of you likes it, great, you have to. And then you have to be able to communicate all these things. So when you get comfortable advocating for yourself, talking, you know, sharing your stories in a way that make the other person want to share their stories in a way that's healthy. That's a, that's a big issue in dating where I find people will overshare, which is also based on core wounds that have not healed. So we're trauma bonding. And, and the other thing they do is they just tolerate somebody else over sharing or, or talking nonstop. And then they say, oh, that person's a narcissist. Not necessarily. They could be nervous. They just, you know, you, you need to learn how to redirect conversation. So a lot of these, like, social skills are really important in the dating process as well, because otherwise you end up writing somebody off who might be a good match, but you never found out because you didn't direct the conversation to a place where you're sharing from your heart and not just your achievements and things like that. Those are some of the ways that we sometimes get off track in dating.

I'm really excited to open enrollment in my new 14 day detox program. It's based on my experience spending 16 days in the Amazon and I realized I really want to be able to support all of you to safely and effectively detox from home. The 14 day detox includes a kit with protein powder, including antioxidants to support liver detoxification as well as an anti inflammatory diet plan, daily videos and tips from me as well as my self care notebook and lots of encouragement to spend time in nature to reset your circadian rhythm. I want you to be able to detox your mind, body and spirit so you can get back to balance and move forward in your life with resilience. I can't wait for you to join me in this transformational process. I think that's so interesting because there's like, I think when people do maybe meet someone or even go on a date, they're, they may not be thinking of these questions. Like, I mean, and I think probably the questions about sex. People leave till after they've. Maybe they've already had sex or maybe they've already had a few dates and now they feel like they're already in the relationship before they even have some of these conversations. Do you, do you see that too?

100%. I think a lot of people who are not consciously dating are letting people.

You know, kind of control the situation without them having any input. And when we bring intention to anything in life, it's a two way street and we first identify what are the things that we need and then you can advocate for them and you can see early on how does somebody respond to me talking about my needs, talking about my feelings. If I want things to go slower because it's never worked for me in the past, how do I communicate that without shutting the other person down? Well, you give them a compliment first. You tell them you're attracted to them. You tell them this is a need of mine, this has nothing to do with you. But I know that this has never worked out for me in the past and I like you and I'd like to get to know you more slowly. How does that work for you?

Well, yeah, this is the power of these conversations. Because otherwise, I mean, I think a lot of times also people might just give up, right? Like it hasn't worked for me. I've had these difficult relationships and dating sounds like it's going to be so difficult too. And then they just, they just say forget it, right?

Like, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'd rather be alone. And you know what? It's. If you haven't yet discovered the tools, the ways of processing the ways of dating in a healthier way then you're just shutting down based on your old patterns. You're shutting down based on your lack of knowledge and the way you've always done it. And there are always choices. There are always choices in how we approach everything in life. And I'm a big believer that if something doesn't work, try something else. You know, the, the windows close, go through the door, the doors close, go out the roof. I don't know, like, figure it out.

Get creative.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it, and just to, to like, from my scientific brain, I'm thinking, I mean, we know that there can be really a lot of value even for our health to be in relationship with another human. I mean, that couldn't be having friends. That can be being, you know, connected with family. It' also, as you mentioned, having alone time. It's all about a balance, you know, and it doesn't mean that we, we want to find ourselves in an unhealthy relationship. That's not going to be good either. But how, like there is a, there is a place where if we can work on ourselves and, and do the work of learning how to communicate with other humans and find a nice reciprocal, you said interdependent relationship, then there can be a lot of health benefits to that. Would you say that? I mean, is that a good motivation for people? Is that, or what, what do you think is, is a healthy way to be motivated about choosing a relationship?

Yeah, I think you make a very good point. And I think a lot of people can't even picture what that would look like. That's also something I help people with, is let's create a vision for what you do want, not just what you don't want or what you think is out there. And also not to get too rigid about how that's going to look. It's more about how it's going to feel. So when I do a must have or a deal breaker list with a client, it's not about he has to have, he has to be 6ft tall and he has to have a lot of hair and he has to have a fantastic relationship with his parents and a big friend group.

Like, I mean, you get too specific.

Yeah, you get too specific and you probably are overlooking some amazing people who don't have all those things that you think you need. And then love shows up in a surprise package when you're open. You know, it's that person you never thought you would date or that a friend of yours introduced you to and you thought they were nice. And then you got to know them because you had an open heart and you knew what you wanted to feel like. I think that when we get out of our heads and into our hearts, well, we have to understand what would work best for us. We have to have certain parameters, and the more specific we can be in terms of feelings and who that person has to be in order for us to feel that way. That's where we start to really attract in not just the right partner, but the right friends, the right work. It's all connected. And I think that most people really just don't have an idea, and so they get distracted, they get discouraged, and they just shut down and say, I just. I'm going to get a bunch of cats and I'm going to live alone. And yeah, it feels better than going on a lot of bad dates. But what would it feel like to be in partnership? What would it feel like to have somebody to travel with, to. To come home to at the end of the day and take a walk and share a meal? I mean, it's those small things. It's not somebody to bring me flowers every minute and take me on these big romantic vacations. That's not real life. That's romantic gestures. But to really feel into. What would a real relationship feel like to you?

Well, that's a beautiful question. And I think, you know, for everyone to. To consider whether you're. Even if you're already in a relationship. Right. Like, do you do some of that too, helping people, like in a relationship already?

Yep. Yep. I've had people come to me while they're in a relationship. I've had people come to me when they can't even imagine being in a relationship. I. I've been working with one woman who came to me. It was a. It was a difficult relationship. She met him while he was going through a divor and it was a contentious divorce. There was a lot of codependency. There was just a lot of mess, and she needed to work on her stuff. So we worked with her first because she got triggered very easily. She would go back to the old triggers of childhood. I feel abandoned when he does this. So giving her tools and tools to communicate better. So I was only working with her, not with both of them, but giving her the tools to deal with arguments. Better to argue fairly instead of calling names and saying things she'd regret later. And over time, they ended up. They're going to get married. I mean, he moved in with her recently, and she said he finally was open to taking a course, a relationship course with her, which he never was open to before. But that was important because she can't be the only one doing all the work. Yeah, it does change the dynamic. But if the other person isn't open and willing to also look within and say, what can I do to change and make this relationship better? Then it's really. A lot of. It's really hard. It's like going up a hill all the time, pushing a rock.

So, yeah, that's. Yeah. One thing coming together is, hey, are we both willing to work on ourselves and work on communication? Because it really sounds like learning to communicate is a lot of what you're teaching people, how to really understand what. What their needs are and how and boundaries and say, here's, you know, here's what I need. Or here's where I. Here's where, you know, here's where I need to meet each other in this relationship and how to say that.

Yeah, and some of the. Some of the nonviolent communication framework is used in this, where you. Whenever something's going on for us, we tend to begin with a lot of judgment. We will bring in history. I had a. Had a friend who used to keep tabs of every time her husband hurt her in any way. And any argument they had, she'd bring the whole history. She's like, I got it all. I didn't forget a thing. And I said, how is that. How is that serving you? And it was the first time she ever, like, looked at. Oh, I don't. That's really not good. Like, I feel like I'm getting back at him. But it's not healthy for either one of us. And she stopped doing it. So it's taking all that, you know, you never. You always. You're a jerk. All of the judgment, labeling. First you got to get all that out. And that takes some processing skills. Then you come up with a clean statement. Let's say your partner is late all the time. So you were late coming to the restaurant. There's no emotion attached. There's no judgment attached. That is just the statement. And then you look at your feelings and your needs. I was feeling anxious or sad or angry, upset, whatever it is, because you had a need that wasn't met. And so when you start to see that needs and feelings are connected, it's really helpful. Now, you don't have to say all of this out loud. You could even just process it for yourself. But if you were feeling upset because your partner didn't come on time and didn't contact you. Maybe you had a need for communication, maybe you had a need for respect.

And then you get curious about the other person. Maybe it wasn't disrespectful on their part to them, but now you can have a conversation about what was going on for you. How can we do better next time? You know, is there a way for us to compromise on this? Is there a way for us to brainstorm how we can make this work so I don't get upset every time I'm waiting?

And you know, it's, it's just that, that self understanding is so important of what's going on for me because we immediately look at why are you doing this to me?

But like realizing, oh, this what am I feeling and how can I process that and how can I communicate about it? And it's not necessarily all about this other person changing, it's about how do I communicate? And then we can come to an agreement about what, how we're going to move forward.

Yeah. And I mean, I'll give you an example that's not about dating. But we as a family would always have to wait for my mom to show up for family dinners when we'd have like a holiday or something and she'd come a half an hour an hour late. She was terrible with time. And we would get angry, we would wait, the food would get cold. And then when I started doing this work, I realized this was ineffective. We were all just pissed off all the time and everybody stressed out. And I just set a limit with my mom. I said, you know what, we really want to start our dinners on time. And so if you're more than 15 minutes late, we're going to start eating without you. I hope you can make it. And over time she started getting earlier. She was mad in the beginning, but she realized what was at stake and she made an effort to set out earlier and get to our homes earlier. So it wasn't a threat, it wasn't an ultimatum. It was just, this isn't working for us. And so here's what we're going to do and we hope that you can show up. Yeah.

And I think it does take that, practiced it because sometimes we're taught, oh, if I, if I say something like that, then another person might get mad. Then we feel like we can never say anything and then we never do say anything and then it just becomes a tense situation. But yeah, being able to go, how do I, how do I learn the words so that I can say these things in a way that can start to honor this other person, but also honor yourself. Right. So it's a, it's a mutual honoring and, and I think that can make amazing changes in families to be able to learn how to have those kinds of communications.

Yeah, it's not easy stuff, but it, and it takes practice. I was terrible at this when I first started, but I'll tell you that nonviolent communication work was something that really helped the last three years of my marriage. My ex husband saw that I was serious about leaving and he said, okay, I'm, I'm going to get some help. And he got help processing his feelings and his needs and we were able to talk everything out. And my kids were so confused that we were taking walks every day and talking stuff out. We weren't a good match, but we were able to not kill each other. So that was a good thing.

Yeah, but that can be amazing when you can, when, when a relationship is coming to an end to be able to at least both be able to communicate about it and both see that same, you know, same fact or truth in front of you. And I wonder if, I mean, I'm, I've been in relationships in my life. I was married and I've been divorced and I've been in another long term relationship and I'm now not in a relationship. And I am aware that for me, I, I've been in a, I would say somewhat of a grief process. Right. Whenever one relationship ends, there is a grief process that we go through. And I've been more aware of that this time. You know, just allowing for that grief process before even. And maybe that's part of it is also getting to know myself and my values before choosing to date again. But I'm curious, you know, what is your perspective on sort of grief processing of a prior relationship before choosing to look for a next one?

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I agree with you a hundred percent that we all need to process and many people don't. And I have a whole chapter in my book on when to date again, after loss, after a breakup, when to stay, when to go. You know, it's. But, but knowing how to process a breakup. And one of the things that I love doing is having clients write a letter to the person who they are no longer in a relationship with. And, and it starts with gratitude. Thank you for all of these wonderful things that you brought to my life. And some of those wonderful things that they brought to your life could be that I realize I'm really poorly matched with Someone like you, you know, and, and that I really need someone who's going to be more of fill in the blank. And, but it's, it's, it's a way to really just start processing. What did I learn? So when I work directly with a client, I will do a debrief. We debrief every date we look at. What are you learning? What do you like about this person? What are three things you liked? We always start with the positives and then what are yellow or red flags that are showing up early on and we often will bury those because we want to have this connection so badly and, or we start to evolve in the relationship and the other person is not. The person is stagnant or there's a crisis and this person can't handle it. You know, I've, I've dated lovely men who couldn't handle a relationship and work. You know, it's just both didn't work in their lives. And I don't want to be a last minute option. So I know what I need and I'm no resentment, you know, go forth and have a good life. But this isn't working for me. And so, you know, I think we have to, if we want to have healthy relationships, if we want to move on to somebody who's a better fit, we have to first figure out what wasn't working, what was working, what do you want to, what do you want more of, what do you want less of? And give yourself the time to feel it in your body, to feel all the feelings. And because a lot of people also, after a relationship ends, they miss that, that companionship and that feeling of intimacy so much that they will either go back to that person or they'll find somebody to replace them too quickly and repeat the same thing over and over.

Yeah, so, so important too. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to hear that you cover all of this in your, in your now. Your most recent book is the Choice Points in Dating A Woman's Guide to Making Better Decisions in Love. And I know you are working on another book.

I am, I am. So I had just published this and like Valentine's day this year, 2023, and I was having dinner to celebrate with a friend and she goes, congratulations, what's your next book? And I was like, what are you talking about? I said, I am like the person who will move on too quickly. So I just want to like celebrate for a minute. And then I said, you know what, I have an idea. And my idea is for all the People who have given up hope and feel like love is not possible after a certain age. I am going to share stories of finding love later in life. The tagline of my, of my website lastfirstdate.com is hope and confidence to love again. And that popped in my head and I said this is really what I stand for. It's helping people to not just have hope, but the confidence comes with skills. It comes with some mindset shifts. It comes with doing things a little differently. And so all of the stories, and I've already interviewed about 12, 12 people who found love later in life. They've all had some surprise. You know, it's. One was a. As a couple in New Zealand who, he was a family friend from church. He was a musician, like a rock star. He, she said he looked like a homeless guy. He was, he was also a sheep shearer. And you know, he would just kind.

Of originally thought she would be dating, huh.

No. And she was married at the time, so she wasn't even looking to meet somebody. And so she meets this guy and they become family friends and they're doing like family game night board board games and stuff. And then they got to know each other over time. Her marriage was falling apart and she didn't even consider him as a possible date. He was 28 and she was like 42 or something. I mean they're. Big age gap really. Such different upbringing. She was like a homeschooling mom, very conservative and he was this free thinker and she said he is so emotionally mature. It's an amazing relationship. So.

Yeah, well that sounds like it's going to be so helpful for people to, to be able to. Yeah. Refer to those stories because yeah, honestly I have that thought sometimes, you know, like, hey, is this, you know, is this, is that it for my life? You know, is there? Is there really? Because a lot of people have this thought that like all the good ones are already in a relationship and the people who are out there are, are, you know, they're not going to be, you know what I mean? It's already been filtered through. So. Yeah. What do you think of that leg? That concept?

Yeah. So all the good ones are not taken and there are new people rising to the surface every day. I think so much of it is really. What's your state of mind? How do you see dating? How do you see yourself? How do you see men? If you're a woman dating a man, how do men see women? How to, you know, it's, it's so much we don't even realize, you know, you talked before about the limiting beliefs. I will have clients say, men are, relationships are. And you see all the beliefs. Relationships are hard work. Men are not to be trusted. And so much out there in social media is supporting that. Don't trust men. Men are terrible. People tell these terrible date stories. So how are you supposed to see dating and especially if you go on first dates and second dates with people and you just go, oh, God, I don't have the energy for this. I'm burnt out. And yeah, take breaks. And don't just use online dating as your source for getting dates and work on the mindset stuff. It's really that we do have choices. And that's why I wrote this book, because we think that we don't have a choice. We were brought up by dysfunctional parents. We were in terrible relationships. We were in abusive relationships. People tell us there are no good men. It's very easy to shut down and think, that's it, we're done. And I just invite your listeners, if they're in that space, to really picture what it would feel like to be in a healthy relationship. What would that look and feel like to you? Because the more you have it as a felt sense, the more you're going to recognize it in that surprise package, not in the package you might have thought it was going to come in. And it just, you know, could be long distance, it could be anywhere, it could be anything. And do the things that you love and put yourself out there and live the life that you would want somebody to date. You know, it's like, I think a lot of people are waiting. They're waiting to be saved and rescued and you got to really enjoy your life while you're dating and just find somebody who's going to add value and don't settle for less. But there are people out there.

Oh, thank you so much. I love that. And yeah, I'm so glad that you wrote well all of your books because I think this is such amazing tools that you're sharing with people on. Is there any other last tip that you haven't mentioned already about? Because I love how you use this term last first date. Because people are so tired of going on a first date. Right. So it's like, how do I make it my last first date?

Yeah, I think that be open, Be open, Do the work. Don't think that this is it. Don't think that, you know, because the last person wasn't a good fit, it means there are no good people. And you Know, work on. Work on the things that are holding you back. You know, if it's your communication skills. So few of us were trained to speak up, to know how to say it. And without. Without communicating early on, we don't really know who a person is and they don't know us. And don't you want to find out earlier rather than later? I think people wait too long. They're so afraid of rejection. They're so afraid, well, if I say this, this person won't like me. Well, that's great information for both of you. And then you can make decisions. You can make your choices based on how that conversation goes, how that person handles the conflict the first time it comes up. You know, just pay attention to those things. But learn how to be. How to be the last first date to attract your last first date.

No, I love that. That's beautiful. And I'll definitely be sharing all the ways that people can contact you, including at your website, which you mentioned. Is this last first date.com, is that the best place to go?

Yeah. Last first date.com has the podcast. It has all my coaching programs, my books, my courses.

Yeah, pretty much everything. The only other thing that probably isn't so clear on my website is my Facebook group, which I. It's my. My joy and my love. It is a free Facebook group for women over 40, and it is a positive place for support. There are so few of those out there for single women, and people come from other groups where it's just. It's just crazy. I mean, it's like nobody's paying attention, nobody's monitoring anything, and that's the opposite of what we have here. So it's all of my principles, my coaching principles show up in this group with my amazing monitors monitoring the group. It's called your last first date. So I would welcome any of your listeners who would like to join us. Love to have them there.

Oh, I love that. And if you don't mind, I was thinking that.

For women over 40, that's especially an area where usually they would be dating and. And probably not thinking of pregnancy, whereas younger times of our lives, a lot of times dating has to do with wanting to have a family.

Right.

But does that come up in your group, like, how. What is dating when it's maybe not about having children together?

Yeah, there are some people who come to me who still want to have children, but the majority are people who are looking for companionship. They're looking for a partner. You know, that that's for them. And I think even if you've been previously married, if you've already had children or not, or I've had never married couples who are formed after working together and people who are 50 and found love for the first time. So I think that when you're looking at it as partnership, it really changes how you look for love. I certainly am very different from the woman I was when I was looking for a husband and a father for my future children.

There's none of that, you know, it's really just about am I, am I having fun? Is this adding value to my life? Do we both inspire each other in some way and then the rest can be worked through?

That's beautiful. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Sandy. I'm really enjoyed talking with you and I can't wait for listeners to enjoy this and to reach out to you if they have questions and would love to get your help. So again, thank you so much. And anyone listening, please check out the notes and links below so you can get in touch with Sandy.

Thank you so much Donnie, your wonderful host, his hostess and I really enjoyed the conversation.

Aw, very good. Well, I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Thanks for listening to How Humans Heal.

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