#178 Conscious Communication for Couples with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Jessica Higgins. She's a psychologist and she specializes in helping couples. And so we want to talk about that today and so much more. Thank you so much for joining me, Jessica.

Yes, thank you, Dr. Donnie, for having me. I'm thrilled to spend this time with you and your audience.

Oh, my gosh, of course. And it's, it's. I mean, you've really done a lot of training in psychology and you've been doing this for a long time. So I really want people to know that, you know, you're an expert in this area. You have a, both the Master's and a PhD in psychology, and you offer not just counseling, but also coaching in your work that you do with people one on one and, and online and in groups. So you're really serving people in, in a lot of amazing ways. And you've been doing that for more than 20 years. What brought you in this direction of knowing that you wanted to be helping people with their, would you say their mental and emotional health? Is that what you would say?

I would say big picture, yes. And more specifically with relationship. I think that's become more focused over the last, I'd say 15 plus years, maybe even 18, actually, I would say maybe 20 years. And I was in the helping profession in the, like, late 90s and serving people, working with people with trauma and different, different.

Settings and different populations. So in a nutshell, I would say I've always had this inclination towards people, why they do what they do, what they're feeling, and just having a love for that even at a very young age. And then even in elementary school, my mother noticed and was kind of just supporting me in my development in that and helping me articulate. And I think it was natural. And then she, I think, supported that. And then in junior high, I proclaimed I wanted to be a psychologist. And so I knew really early on, and people are like, oh, you must be so lucky. I just know and have that clarity. But I will say psychology is a huge field. So One can go in many different directions, work with different populations, in different modalities, different issues. So it's still not super crystal clear. And my path has been varied and worked with youth and really love working with young adults and adolescents and children. And then I would say when I had my own relationship struggles, really prompted me to go deeper and do a deeper dive in my own personal journey. And also felt very inspired and motivated to help people have access to more relationship principles that cultivate lasting love. Because I felt like largely unless someone's self studying, I do think that's changing with podcasts and books and people being much more receptive to getting input. But 20 years ago I felt like people, someone has to really be proactive to self study to learn these. It's not modeled, it's not widely talked about. So that was one of the prompts for me to kind of go deeper, not only in my personal.

Journey, but also recognizing most people are pretty ill equipped with this. Just not having the skill set and be being prepared to negotiate the landscape of long term intimacy.

And thank you for explaining that. And, and I think it's very true. I mean, we don't learn that in school. We don't learn like how to be in relationship with other humans, let alone in an intimate relationship with other humans unless. And yet it's something that as humans we usually choose because, you know, for obvious reasons, for being with another human. I mean, there's a lot of studies that show that, you know, being in a, in a, in a, in a couple or having a companion in life can actually improve your longevity and, and being able to, you know, even be able, I think even being able to communicate with humans in so many other relationships in our life is so essential. And yet we only learn usually by making mistakes. And then sometimes people get very stressed by the experience and feel like they don't even want to interact with other humans at all. You probably hear that, right?

I mean, it can be incredibly confronting when maybe some of our wounding or even past traumas have been below the surface or field of awareness. And so intimacy will likely evoke certain things that we've known in the past as it relates to relationship where people don't respond to us or felt rejected or abandoned or not good enough. So it doesn't have to be big traumas, but it can even be small relational traumas. So that can be activating. And yes, I absolutely feel that.

Was wanting to respond to something because I felt like it was so important when.

I said that it can improve our Longevity, if we have.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. So thank you. I wanted to comment on specifically the attachment research that's become much more widely recognized and that there are FMRI studies that really look at how someone's experiencing pain in the brain, that when they're holding the hand of a loved one like a significant partner, that that relationship is stable or good, that they're actually going to feel less pain and less intense like pain and experiencing that. So there's a sense of resilience when we can have that partnership. I know Stephen Porges and the Polyvagal. Right. Really looking at the. Even in hospitals and just the recovery rates. I mean, it goes on and on and on about the benefits medically, physiologically, to be partnered. And I think in the attachment research, they say from cradle to grave, we are wired up to need this bonding. And as humans, that. That is a huge source. I mean, it's a need like drinking water or breathing fresh air that we need connection.

Yeah. And. And yet it's something that can also be such a source of stress if it's not going well. Right. If we're. And it's like a lot of times, as you were mentioning, it can be. It's. In some times, I know people feel the most frustrated because, like, why is it the person who I'm closest to is the one that triggers me the most, you know, and that's just. That's just part of the human experience. Right. I mean, so we have to almost like, know that that could happen. And tell us more. How do you help people to understand, like, why is it that the. In intimacy, some of our past and traumas can get triggered and that. That. That maybe is an opportunity for growth. Tell me more.

Yes, I believe in that philosophy, hands down. And just to reference some of the science there with the attachment working model. We all have an attachment system, meaning the way that we are going to think about others in the world, how people are going to respond to us. Are we safe? Are our needs going to get met? So it's both. Well, it's many things. It's intellectual, so our mental thinking, our beliefs, it's physiologically like our nervous system is relaxed. We feel at ease, we feel safe again. It's also our emotional state. So it's this whole triad of this working model. And that gets developed at a very young age. So 0 to 3 is the formative years. It's just. It's how we're shaped. It's the, like, relational imprint, if you will. And this just comes through the patterning of how people responded. Were our caregivers responsive? Did they show up for us when we cried? How attuned were they? Were they not available with something happening in the circumstances that they were overwhelmed or you know, for unfortunate circumstances, you know, if there's been abuse in the family lineage and there's still some level of abuse happening, or alcoholism, you know, there's lots of things that can run things off track and while why a child would not get their needs met. So if we fast forward, people wonder, oh, if I have an insecure attachment, meaning I didn't get the consistency, I didn't have the stability of that healthy functioning and I feel protective. And one of the ways that I might be protective is I turn away, I rely on myself. And that's kind of more what we might hear of avoidant or I don't reach towards others. And when caregiving was more inconsistent, we can be a little more anxious, just double checking like, are we good? Is it still good? Is everything stable? Are you still with me? Like, you know, just making sure. It's that hyper vigilance type of thing. Now both of these, because even the avoidant, that's more reliant on themselves, the studies and medical findings show that there's a lot of activation. It doesn't look like it on the outside, it looks a little indifferent or self reliant and contained. But what's happening is the heart rate's increased, all all of the physiological symptoms and the stress level, all of that is still there. So it doesn't feel relaxed and calm and bonded and secure. So to your question, fast forward. A lot of people will be, you know, in adulthood and they're dating or even in the workforce or friends or you know, extended family or what have you. And they're not feeling threatened, they're not feeling this activation because that attachment system isn't activated because it's only in those very primary. And the nervous system sees those relationship as survival. So one might say the nervous system is gonna respond similarly if like a bear is chasing me, like my nervous system will get triggered just as much perhaps if my husband is giving me a look and is upset with me and having issue with me and I'm like freaked out about it, whatever the scenario is, it's gonna look similar. And so that threat, when we talk about the attachment system and that bonding, so we need our parents to survive. And then when we look at adulthood, that bonding that happens on a very deep level, whether or not it's life, partnership or marriage, or however it's structured when it's deeply, deeply committed and we get vulnerable and we get that, like, there's higher stakes or we have children together, whatever, we're buying a house together, whatever it is that we're intensifying that connection, that's when we're gonna. Our nervous system and our. Our attachment system gets more activated. So then those previous insecurities might emerge and we might be surprised by them. That was a long winded answer. But does that help?

Yeah, yeah, it does. And I think that's really helpful for people to understand. Like, okay, this is like, to realize like that's that our relationship as an adult is. It has the potential to trigger us at a core survival response.

Yeah.

And so that's why sometimes we. We might react in ways that we might not react in other conversations or situations in our life. You know, so, you know, if people are like, why am I so irritable, let's say. Or why does, you know, when this happens? Why do I feel. Yeah. Either anxious or upset or. Right. The emotional volatility, is it at a whole different level within relationships?

Yeah. And when we look at this, it's zero to three. Some of those experiences are pre verbal. So we don't actually have explicit, like memory and actually things to call up. So it might be confusing that we'll have these bodily sensations but not actually understand. Why is this uncomfortable? Why am I upset? Or what's happening here that there's such charge.

And I think too, then it's. If it's, you know, sometimes it doesn't happen at the beginning of the relationship. Right. It happens when you're. You're in. Is. What is that? Like, why is it like you're a few years in and then that happens?

Oh my goodness. You probably could speak to this really well. Well, there are five stages, and there are other people that have different number of stages. But what's often recognized is the development of intimacy. So every couple goes through these developmental stages. The first stage is romance stage, or even referred to as like the honeymoon. And it's the highly fueled by neurochemicals, the dopamine, oxytocin, like all the things that get us in that super excited high. And we tend to romanticize, we tend to project meaning. We imagine who they are. We really don't know them in all seasons and all kind of ways. And so we fill in the blanks and. And it's, you know, very bonding. But then sets in nine. Nine months to 18 months. And we then enter into the Second stage, which is the power struggle stage, or the place where we are like, oh, that's, that's how you do that, or feeling the upset of the differences. And that's where ultimately, to your point about growth and an opportunity, really at that stage, it's like, how do we understand each other? How do we learn what we're both feeling? How do we work together? But oftentimes many of us don't know how to do conflict very well. It's threatening. All these things are emerging and it's, it can be a little difficult to, to sift through.

Okay, gotcha. So then it's like, then you're, then you might be in the moment of going, oh, how do I now.

Not only experience the feelings? Because I think a lot of us also have been, you know, we've had a lot of negative association. I don't know how you really, how you would say that. But with certain emotions, like, you know, it's, it's considered, you know, you're not supposed to feel angry or sad or disappointed or even embarrassed or ashamed. Like, these are emotions that we like, almost try to hide from or act as if humans don't have. But we do have these emotions and we, and it's like if we haven't really learned how to be okay with all of those emotions within ourselves. I could see where, you know, in the moment you might be like, first of all, having. Responding to the emotions you're having and at the same time trying to communicate your needs with this other human. It's complicated.

It is complicated because I do think, oftentimes, I think less so now. I think there's a lot more call for vulnerability and authenticity. And there's still this desire of, like, I want this person to like me and I'm going to put my best foot forward. And then when things get more real and you're living life together, not necessarily living together, living together, but still negotiating the ups and the downs and the stressors. We might show certain things that are part of our human experience in the full range where we might be upset or angry and how we deal with that. And also to my earlier point, we might have certain expectations. So let's say there's a heated discussion and one partner, a grew up in a family where people just. There was a sense that there was connection and it was good, but they, they talked it out, they worked it out, and it might get a little charged or people might yell, we all know we love each other. We're going to repair. We're Going to get to some better place. And so there's. There's goodness in that. We don't want to, like, not resolve anything. And then partner B grew up in a family where, no, we're not going to say anything hurtful. We're not going to speak in any tone that's with any type of upset or discontent and anger. So we're going to pause and be more regulated, and we'll come back and we'll. Or we maybe don't come back and we don't talk about things, but very different orientations around how to address a conflict. And that in. I mean, that's a very small example, but I think the Gottmans, they're a huge contributor to the field of couples work. I've heard it quoted that there's seven to eight irreconcilable differences that every couple has. And when I heard this, I was like, whoa, that's a lot. And then I was reflecting on it, and it took me about, I would say, 12 hours. And I'm like, yep, we've got seven. And that could be the spender, the saver. It could be the planner, the spontaneous one. It could be the more expressive one, the one that's more social, or the one that's more introverted. It could be the one that's on time, the one that's late. Like, you know, there's all these differences that we might have that when we're living life together, we'll run into, like, I like to do more, and I might fill my calendar. And if we're going to plan a vacation, and my husband's like, less is more, and he doesn't want to get overwhelmed, and he wants to just have more spaciousness. And I might get excited and, like, I want to go here, I want to go there. And, you know, and I do think we've found a really sweet middle, but on face value, that could feel like, no, I want my way, or here's why I want this way is better. And then it gets into trying to convince and persuade, which can escalate.

I gotcha. And I know you do a lot of work around helping couples with, you know, sort of like when it becomes then criticism of each other. Right. So then you're just throwing darts at each other. Tell us more about that. Like, is that the. It sounds like that's where that's headed with. What you were just describing was, all of a sudden, now you're just like this. You know, instead of being able to find a way where we can honor our differences and. And work with that. It's more like, you know, aiming at each other for who's right and who's wrong.

Yeah, well, that could be a direction that it goes, which is more of that criticism. And then likely the one on the receiving end is feeling a little bit more defensive and it could just look like criticism. It could look like both people turning away and like, this isn't working. Not necessarily the relationship, but the conversation and just being like, ah, let's just stop. It could be both people get in the ring and get a little feisty and want to argue. But the net net of any of those is that people don't feel heard and they're not feeling like they're able to collaborate and work for a win win. And that's hard to get to and just to kind of respond to what you're asking. It is very common for us to describe the thing we do not like in hopes that our partner will be able to interpret and understand what we're feeling and needing and be able to show up for that. That's a lot of decoding that most of us like. If it's not a clear signal.

Most people are not going to get the clear signal. So, like, for example. So let's use this example that I was referencing with, like, my husband and I want to take a trip somewhere.

And I might lead with an idea. Or let's say I'm super excited about it and really wanted. I might have stronger attachment to it. And if my husband's like, whoa. He might be like. I mean, even describe it in critical ways of like, that's ambitious, or let's not get ahead of ourselves, or, wow, let's not try to. I can't even think of language. But he could describe it in really unfavorable terms. And immediately I could be defending why it's good that I feel the way that I do, or why my idea sparks joy or however we, you know, I would love it. And we could get into this critical defensive loop. Now, if I can do, like, this is a little bit. I don't think it's the easiest thing to access, but if I can slow down and say, okay, I wonder what he's feeling, or I wonder what his emotion or what he needs right now. Because it's not about him criticizing me. It's about, there's something happening for him that he wants and I don't actually hear it and I don't know it. So I might even prompt him of like, well, what's this about or how what, what's happening for you? Or can you tell me about what you're wanting or what, how this has value for you or the meaning around this.

And, and sometimes he could say.

Or even without my prompt, I'm worried about feeling overwhelmed or I'm worried it's too much, or I really want to feel a sense of peace and flow and really just feel energized rather than doing too much. And I'm like, immediately when he can reveal what matters to him, I'm like, of course I want to show up for that. I'm not so interested in showing up for his negative critique of me. Like, I'm not. That's. I have my own. I can survey and give all the reasons why what I'm presenting is fair and valid and that can be a never ending conflict. But if I can understand what he needs and I can pivot towards that and then it's like, oh, well, we can have fun and do something exciting and we can also do it in a paced way. That's where the win, win starts to come in. But that's hard to get at when we don't slow down and identify and reveal and then start to work with those deeper layers.

And I think too, like, having a sense of trust and also calmness within ourselves. And this is where, you know, like, I could see like, where the work that I do with, you know, like, okay, if the, if you're depleted in serotonin and gaba and so you don't have very much calming in your nervous system, which happens when we're under a lot of stress stress, we get depleted in these calming neurotransmitters. And so then when you're in a conversation where you're now triggered into thinking that your needs aren't going to get met on this vacation, then it's hard to have that balanced conversation because you, on the inside, you're feeling this rush of adrenaline and cortisol probably, you know, so it's like, then I find like, okay, the more I can help people to get their serotonin and gamba to a healthier level, which can be done with, with nutrients. It doesn't have to be with medications. Right? Like, we go, okay, let's get the, get some calming in the nervous system. Let's work on the adrenaline and cortisol, get it to optimal. Then it's a lot easier to be in a conversation where you're like, okay, I feel okay here. My heart's not racing. I can have a Conversation where I'm not afraid of losing myself while negotiating with this other person who I love. Right. Like it's, it's, it's a way different way of being able to have those interactions.

Absolutely. And I, I really appreciate what you're bringing in because I don't think there's one entry point to support change. Right. We're multifaceted. So if we can support the nervous system to feel more regulated then we can have more access to have more productive conversations. And also as we've been talking, if there's past experiences or.

Trauma in the past early upbringing, like we haven't known the safety in these conversations that we can trust and turn towards them, then there's good likely it would make perfect sense that there's going to be a lot of activation like I don't trust this, I'm not going to engage or I don't know that we're good and I'm worried and I'm a little anxious. So I'm like pursuing with asking all these questions and we read each other. This is, I'm sure you focus on too. There's a concept in psychology and other, other neuroscience is the neuroception where our nervous systems are constantly harmonizing and picking up information from the people around us. So in very short amount of time if the tone of voice changes, if the facial, facial expressions and non verbals like that's being perceived, we might not know why but we'll feel the, the agitation of that of like ooh, like and we could just start to feel things ratcheting up and we might not even have a real awareness around why or what's happening. So that slowing down, even the assist of getting the system regulated before we even enter into those conversations, it all is related in my, in my opinion.

Yeah. That makes, it makes so much sense and it really, you know, I think just yeah. Realizing okay may, you know, I think normalizing when either couple kind of starts to feel that to say hey you know what, maybe let's take a break, let's take a walk, let's come back to this. You know, like how do you talk people through? Like if they start to feel that ratcheting feeling how to have an agreement that they can step away and come back.

Yeah. I mean that's not a new encouragement. And yet it's so difficult to put into practice because especially as I mentioned, if one comes from a family dynamic where people did talk it out, hash it out and or things bad things happened when things weren't talked about meaning like people left or they felt alone or felt abandoned, that that's going to. There's going to be more effort to stay connected, even if it's not great connection in the way of a conflict. So it's not new. I think when things are incredibly off track, I think it is helpful to look at new moves and create a new cycle together because that's going to create more safety, more connection in the communication, and that typically is going to be slowing down to reveal. So oftentimes we're aware of the secondary emotions, the tendencies of how we might perceive our partner, and that doesn't get at the deeper layer. And so we can slow down to unpack, to get at the deeper layer. Oftentimes, journaling, talking to a therapist, a coach, working with a coach in the couple session will help assist in getting at these deeper layers because often it's not apparent. And once we can get at those more vulnerable parts, that's when things start to really change dramatically and fast because we can bypass all of the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And when we can really just say, oh, I feel nervous or I feel scared, and here's where. What I'm thinking, here's where I go, or here's what's happening. Typically there's like, you know, like my husband, I was just saying, like, it wasn't a super vulnerable conversation, but I was like, I could feel my support for him and my love for him. And I'm like, yes, of course. But if we want to stay in the judgment and the head and the accuracy and accusations or their, you know, the characterizations, we could argue for years.

About that defense going back to brains, going after each other, and we lose connection. I like how you're saying you connect with that love. If we lose the connection with our love for this person, then. And then it's, you know, then it is just two egos or two brains just going at each other. Are you ready to discover your unique stress type? We're all affected by stress, but why fight it when you can master it? Take my free online stress type quiz today and conquer your burnout. We'll measure your energy, sleep, mood, focus, and body to determine how your body is built to deal with stress. Then we'll work together to take precise action to help you get out of stress mode and become resilient to it. It's time to master your health. Let's go. Is like, what do you recommend for couples? Like, I mean, would you say therapy right away? Like, what. How do you Think people wait too long to access therapy as support?

I would say historically, yes. There was some analogy I remember coming across and it was. They were likening it to going to a medical like, ER doctor seven years after breaking their arm.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

Like, I broke my arm. Can you help me? And they're like, yes. And then when did you break your arm? Like seven years ago. And just the. What's happened since then? So the idea is I, I again, I do think that this is changing. I think people are much more proactive and. But I do think historically that's been the case is either people do not reach out for support and they're stuck and exhausted in this conflict disconnect. Because I loved how you were like two brains. Because typically we're, we do it for good reason. We have protection. We're what we're feeling vulnerable and we protect ourselves and we protest. We're saying to our partner, hey, this doesn't work. I don't like this. But we're doing it from like a safe, armored up way. And when that pointing the finger, they're like, ouch. No. And then they're protecting themselves and then pointing out the thing that doesn't feel good. And then it's just this like back and forth, back and forth. But if we can drop and into that more vulnerable, revealing state and we can have that understanding, that's what creates that connection. So I think that if people can read a book early on, start to unpack these things. I have had many experiences where the first thing even me, like I coach, I brought up with a lot of communication practices and principles. I have an undergrad in tech. All these things that I would think I'm well equipped. And then my human tendency is right there where I want. What wants to fly out of my mouth is like all the reasons why my husband's wrong or what he did was not fair and not correct, or, you know, I can characterize that, tell a story about it. And it's human right. We want to point to the thing that hurts. But if I turn to my journal, I can tell you the first part of it is like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, here's how I'm valid. Like I'm, I'm vindicated by feeling the way that I feel. And then I unpack, I unpack, I unpack. Like, what is it that I'm wanting? What would that allow me to feel? What is it that's underneath that? Like, I'm getting at these deeper Layers and obviously I have some sense of the prompts that help me get there. But then I get to this place and it's almost like this body visceral resonance of like. Like I even feel the softening in me. It's not this effort to like be understood. It's just like I'm, I'm in presence with the truth of like on a deep level, that vulnerability. And so once I'm like, oh, I'm scared or oh, like whatever it is, then I've had enough practice with him that now I know what comes on the other side of that. It's not fun. It's not, you know, the enjoyable thing to do to be vulnerable. But I know the payoff, which is he's likely. I've never had him not respond to me and that cultivates that intimacy. So to answer your question, I think if people don't have a lot of backlog or if the charge on a scale from 1 to 10 is like a 3 or a 4, I think a lot of self help tools would be really helpful for this. There's tons of podcasts, there's books. I'm happy to offer any recommendations here? I do love Susan Johnson's work. She wrote a book called Hold Me Tight and it, it really lays out a cycle and the attachment research and she founded and created with colleagues the emotionally focused therapy, which I think is the couples therapy. That's the most effective as far as research. But there's tons. I mean I love Stan Tacton, I love, I mean there's so many people, the Gottmans, you know, there's a lot of people that have written. I love Terry Real's work. I love the Hendrix, both Harville Hendricks and Helen Hyde. I like the gay and Katie Hendricks. There's so many people doing wonderful things. So I do think that that can be accessed and when people can start to practice and. But for people who have recognize there's trauma in their background or maybe they're like, oh, like I, I have a client I've worked with for a while and he's gotten in touch with like on, on many, many levels. His childhood was great. There was warmth, there was vacations, there was presence, there was physic, like physical being and his needs were met. But the emotional attunement was complicated for, for reasons that were probably like lineage and generational. So no blame to his parents, but there was a misattunement and that had such a profound impact on him. And now he's getting in touch with this sense of relational.

Vacancy. And it's hugely impactful for him and his ability to open and anyway, so when we can recognize there's a charge or there's things interfering or if you've done your best attempt with your significant other and you. You can't get anywhere, you're running into these blocks. I think getting some support because people who get support sooner. I've had couples within a few sessions just have dramatic, like, weddings off, like, word, you know, I don't know about this. And I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna make it. And then like, they're back on and they're like, repaired and they're like, move mountains. And I have not seen that quick implementation of the practices and principles when there's years and years and years of injury, pivotal moments of pain and despair, that it's like there's this accumulation and it's, It's a lot more to work through.

Yeah, that makes sense. And of course, your podcast is a great resource too, the Empowered Relationship Podcast. So I want to mention that I love that you're really bringing in so many, you know, people to share information, to help help couples and help people in general. And what dawned on me as I was listening to you is also I, I think this is changing. And I, I mean, I see it in my practice too, where people are more, I would say, taking care of themselves, more willing and able to prioritize their own care and their needs and because in past generations, and depending on the age of the listener may be still true, where when we entered a relationship, there would be, you know, perhaps one person who is less likely to expect for their needs to be met and less likely to even bring up something that they feel upset about. And then the other person who's, you know, maybe always the one who is, you know, sort of making decisions or in control of decisions. And this, I think, right, that's like, this. I think of it as like a past.

You know, way that relationships were established. And I'm hoping maybe it's my optimism that is changing, but I mean, I know that that still can happen. What do you think? I mean, is it, Is it even. Is it even possible for that setup to be successful? And do you think, do you think, you know, you're seeing more and more relationships where there's, I guess, more of a sense of equality in terms of.

Prioritizing one's own career and self care and, and, and views and decision making in the relationship?

I would say on a whole I would agree with you. It's my experience, no matter what age someone is or where they're at in their relationship, that collectively, especially as we're talking about Western culture and we're here in the US that.

People are more receptive to contemplating these principles and reflecting and being open to change if their dynamics have been limiting or restricted, restricting. And then as far as the fluidity of roles and decision making and power and all of these dynamics, I think that every couple is up for negotiating what is going to serve them the best. And so I do think there is more space for people to choose and it's going to look different, but the equality around choice, rather than it being predetermined based on gender, other things. So I, I do feel the conversation collectively is giving more space for that and I'm happy about that. Did that answer your question?

It does. Yeah. I'm just, yeah, I'm just. Yeah, I think that it's, it just did. That means that to me that there's this potential for both people in the relationship to be able to. Yeah. Choose. Hey, I want to do these activities today. Like I'm always interested in, in really normalizing self care. Like, what am I going to choose? Am I going to exercise and what time am I going to go to bed? You know, like, and when you're, say you're in a relationship or certainly when you're living with another person, that's a lot of, I think, where the tension can develop if you want to go in bed at a different time or this person's choosing different way of eating and especially if people are already in a relationship and then one person decides, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change my diet or oh, I really realized that I would like to spend my Friday night differently. I don't want to just be, let's say, going out and drinking alcohol. I want to be home and you know, doing meditating or taking a bath. And so if, how to. Like, like, I could imagine that sometimes it can. People could feel like when they're in a relationship, they're almost stuck in the pain because it may be too hard to have the conversation and say, hey, I really like to take better care of my health. And this other person might, might not like that. Right. So it's always this fear of how's the other person going to respond. Right. So I don't know what, how do you. Is that. I'm sure that's something you help people through.

Absolutely. And one of the things I want to really Acknowledge if we shy away or delay on these type of conversations while it feel less conflictual in the moment, that we're not rocking the boat, the long term impact of, of that is we're restricting our health, our vitality, and we're not living in our fuller expression. We're not in our healthier, more optimal place. So when we restrict and don't bring ourselves right, I think it actually impacts the relationship negatively too. Because what's ironic is when we do, there's a term in psychology called differentiating, which we can hold on to ourselves when our partner is doing something different or even disagrees with it and we can tolerate some of that discomfort. It's actually highly attractive. It creates more erotic attraction and romance, that we can feel a sense of difference and we can hold onto that rather than same same because we can. You know, sometimes the old notions might be, oh, the more you love, the more you give. And it can even take this enmeshed or even some people might call codependent or it's, we have to be lock and step. That feels again, very restrictive. We're not able to really be fully authentic. And, and again, this is not to say we're fully independent if there's a sense of interdependence, right? Not codependence, not total independence, but interdependence. So we do rely on each other, we do want connection and we can nurture and listen to our development and our, our health and our growth. Like we're always, no matter what age we are, we have the opportunity to grow and listen to that, optimizing and evolving if, if circumstances and, and I know there's privilege in the way I'm describing this, that we have the capacity to focus on those things, right. Sometimes circumstances are stressed and we have to ATT first. But.

I do think these are difficult conversations and I'm just spelling out how important it is. So to answer your question about how I think starting somewhere, even just what you're recommending is listening to what is it that I would love? What would it be that would that either. I think two things can be really helpful in identifying. It's where I feel discontent, where I'm not happy, right? That can be a big thing. It can. Or even a health thing. Whether or not it's like I'm not sleeping or I'm edgy, I'm moody, I'm unhappy, or I have issue with something, I feel resentful. Like those things are indicators and we can turn towards that and understand, okay, what is it that I'm needing or even like I would love. I'd love to wake up and feel refreshed or I'd love to feel strong. And you know, this desire and inspiration that can also be a source of indicating around like what to focus on. So I think starting either there and then one small thing, I think sometimes just the smallest and just whether or not it's even deciding where we're going to go to eat. Like I'd love to eat something a little healthier if it's choosing a restaurant. And if those conversations result in a really big conflict, like, that can be worth looking at and like what's happening here, whether or not you need the support of someone else to navigate that or just like, let's make this a little bit more visible and let's work on this. So starting small and focusing on one thing can be an entry point.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then just, you know, kind of. But still kind of leaning into it because then we know your. Because we ultimately want to honor each person's sort of emotional growth and, and, and help person. Each person's health. Right. So it's like, okay, there could be conversations that need to happen in order for that growth and change to happen. And I, I mean, I can see that. Like, I know in a lot of relationships it's finances and probably it cause a lot of disagreements. Would you say those are two top areas topics?

Parenting. Parenting is a huge. How people spend their like time cleaning. Like there's, There's a lot. Yeah, yeah.

Like just being able to say, okay, how can we, yeah. Have a conversation about this and figure out how we want to do how any of these things are going to happen in the. Because it comes down to really like mutual decision making. Right. Like, how are we going to. Sometimes it's just spontaneous and it works, and other times it's like, okay, in order for this to work, we're going to have to put in more of a intentional conversation and effort. And, and even I think I'm thinking like looking at different values and priorities. You know, if one person has different priorities, then it's gonna. Everything's gonna fall into a different order.

And it might look like I wanna change things up a little bit. It might feel like we're changing the rules and I wanna do that in a way that we can both have input and it can be a win, win or we're both. It's working for both of us. Like, like you had mentioned earlier, if the dynamic is one person's getting their way or they're a little bit more dominant. That's not, if it's not a win for both, it's not going to be good. It's not going to support the relationship and the health of the relationship. And also one of the things that I think when I talk a lot about criticism and defensiveness, if we can do a little preparation before that conversation, and as I've alluded to in today's conversation, that if we can understand what we're needing or what that deeper request is or desire or the vulnerable, like, what's not working and where it would, like, the pain or like what's hard about it. So it's almost, if we can make a reveal and, or a request in a vulnerable way, those conversations are going to happen so much more productively and efficiently. Because again, if we lead with here's all the reasons why it's not working here, people likely are like, going to get defensive or they feel like, oh, I'm not good enough, I'm failing you, or you don't want, like, it just can take all types of turns that are not necessary. And so if we can do a little preparation to get in touch with that, that's going to send a clear signal. And likely one's partner is going to be able to get that signal much better than they would otherwise.

And really underlying what I really hear is this unconditionality and like, positive regard and like, and, and like empathy for oneself and another human. Like that that's underlying there from, from these conversations, you know, these things that you're mentioning. Right. Like, it's like, if I think if that's not there, it's going to be really hard to resolve different conversations or conflicts. Well, tell us more about that. Like, what is that? What is that way of just even getting to that point of unconditional positive regard for another human.

Well, even for self, as you're referencing. So I do want to come back to the attachment. Because what I didn't say, which is important, is that we can, even if we have an insecure attachment going into a romantic relationship in adulthood through safe, secure functioning, meaning the both of you are responding to each other, you're building trust, you're showing up for each other, that that can earn a secure attachment. So when we look at our upbringing and our development in young, young childhood, optimally, if we have secure parenting and the way that we're cared for, we then in adulthood are able to internalize. My needs are important. I'm valued. It's a safe place. I feel much more able to reach and say, hey, this is what I would want or I have a request or here's where I felt hurt or. And it's that flow of giving and receiving is so much more easy because we've had a template where it's. It works and there is that health. When we haven't had it, that's where we get a little wobbly. But it's not to say we can't work on it. So I think having that trust, building that foundation, giving that sense, that space for self to even. I remember when I first started dating my husband and I definitely leaned a little bit more and I don't think for. For psychology and research they make this very pure like, oh, you're insecure or you're anxious. I think it's a little bit more spectrum, like variations like, oh, I had an insecure attachment with my dad or not my mom or you know, so anyway, I had some aspects and tendencies of anxious attachment style, which is the pursuer, the questioner that and I have had abandonment in my early. My father died when I was three months. There was all these different things that had happened. Makes sense. But I don't think I was fully aware of how it lived in me. And so in the beginning phases to your point around how we hold like regard for self and hold regard for another, I could feel because in previous relationships I maybe chose people that weren't available so I didn't have to risk or when I really did risk, it was scary. And then we had conflict and I recognized, oh, there's some. It just brought me to an opportunity to do some really deep healing in myself. All this to say when I was in practice with some of the principles that we're talking about and I wasn't sure we were dating and I knew I really liked my now husband, but then boyfriend or even just potential partner. And I could feel the rattle of like, oh, I don't know if he's into me. I don't know if he is as because I'm a little bit more expressive. He's a little more contained. So it' not always easy to read him or at least then. And so it was like I was uncertain and then I had. I really wanted to be with that. And so I remember feeling grief of like it might not work out or I don't know or it feels scary. And there would be times where I could just honor that or even say that like the thing that feels unlovable or even A little shameful. And when I could hold myself in it, I felt that warmth and regard, like, I've got my back, like, I'm okay if. Even if he doesn't choose me, I'm showing up for that part of me that's scared and feels scared about being rejected or abandoned. And I'm like, I hear you. I see you. I got you. And then when I could show him some signal of that, like, it was so tender and vulnerable. It wasn't always like, you know, I. I can't remember. I don't have an example to share with you. But he would turn towards that. He didn't feel like he was wrong, or I wasn't trying to ask him questions to kind of, like, figure it out. And he didn't feel pressured or, you know, it was just like this clear signal of, like, this feels a little scary or feels vulnerable. And so I hope that helps. I. I think that this is. You know, there's a lot that goes into creating safety. I think it does take practice. It does take iteration. And when I do think, when we can come into contact, deeper layers and get support to take those risks, that's where we can really feel that human connection, have more of that regard. Because when it's visible, then we can show up. Then we feel that human. Like, I want to help, but if it's not visible and we're protecting ourselves and we're all armored up and then we're throwing little things out to try to, like, almost like flares. Like, those flares feel like little attacks. They don't always feel like, hey, I need you, or, hey, I got something going on and I'm scared, Scared. Can you come find me? Like, that's not always clear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Such a good point. And it's. And it dawns on me, too, that, like, it's so, like, especially in the case of. If you. If you are parenting and you have children, then realizing that, you know, taking the opportunity to work on these tough sometimes feels like scary stuff. But like, you're saying, even sometimes it feels scary, but then it ends up really being a beautiful connection. And when we take that opportunity to do that, we're now modeling if we have children in the home, they're getting to see that. And that can shift their future relationships and experience as a human. So it's like, really can have these ripple effects into future generations.

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Because also in neuropsychology, they'll tell us this. And many people have probably heard of this, this idea that we have to name it to tame it. So the intensity of the emotion, we can even just give space for it, even if it's not resolved. Right. It helps us start to regulate and organize and then we're in a much better position to deal with it. But if we're not willing to name it, all kinds of things can happen. Right? We do all types of things to hide, to avoid, to suppress, to. I mean, fill in the blank that. I mean, we're all in that.

Well, that's a. Probably that's where a lot of addiction and abuse starts happening is, you know, just that. So with like, yeah, we could. We can put in big efforts to try to suppress or avoid our human experience, but if we can have help to instead kind of like do it in a way that actually we are transforming ourselves and transforming our human experience, even for future generations, then it's so worth it.

Oh my gosh.

I know.

I'm almost moved when you're talking. Like, it's just, it's really powerful, the healing, because a lot of injuries happen in relationship. And so when we can have healing in relationship, it has profound, profound impacts on, on cultivating just repair and resilience and health and all the good things.

Well, then no wonder you do what you do. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Jessica. And my. So if people, I mean, I'll be sharing your website and I know you have also a. The guide that. To share with people, your shifting criticism for connected communication guide, which I'll. I'll put a link for. But how else, you know, do you. What else can people expect when they come to visit your website and. And potentially contact you for help?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, depending on when your episode goes live, I may have a new website and definitely been overdue for that. So currently people can find opportunities to get couples coaching or individual coaching. I do have a wait list, but I often. My goal is for people to have what they need and be able to implement and integrate and be on their way. So. So I always hopefully have openings upcoming. I do have courses that's likely going to be shifting with the new website. So there's a lot of curriculum to work with, I'll say that. And then the podcast, which, you know, because you've been a guest, it was great to have you on. So the Empowered Relationship podcast, which you mentioned. And then I have other resources and referrals that, you know, whether or not it's books or different things. But I would say those are the primary ways that I'm Serving people.

Well, that's beautiful and wonderful. Thank you so much for, for sharing your wisdom and, and helping people in that way and, and just that you're so willing to even share about yourself and your relationship. I mean, that alone, I think is transforming medicine because I know for myself too, when I was in medical school, we were always taught as practitioners to not talk about our own experience. And I really think that, that, I mean, of course there's boundaries and there's so much we're going to share, but I do think that like even just today in this interview, there's so much value for you to be able to be a human with a real human experience and be able to say, hey, I get it, you know, so that people don't feel like, you know what I mean, like they're, that you're this perfect person who never experiences anything in your relationship, you know?

Exactly. I will be clear though. When I'm working with clients in one on one, I, I typically don't self disclose unless there's a really good reason and how it's helpful because it's their time and I'm really there to help facilitate. But if it's in a place where I'm talking with someone else or I'm trying to give a story to give example to a principal, then I'm very much along the journey with everyone else in the practice. And I don't think these practices, we arrive at some place where we don't do it anymore. It's not like we eat healthy for a period of time and then we're like, I'm good, I've got it and I don't ever need to eat healthy. It's a continual thing that we're fine tuning and committed to. So I very much am on board.

Yeah, it's like this, this is the human experience is we keep on each day having new opportunities to know ourselves and know our interaction with others and have new feelings and, and experiences from that. So yeah, I agree with you. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. It's really so fun to get to talk to you and I appreciate you sharing this on how humans heal. So I look forward to staying in touch.

Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor to be on your show.

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