#18 How Stress Affects the Microbiome and Ways to Reverse Those Effects

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions. Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome. I am excited to introduce you to Dr. Katherine Clinton today. She is a naturopathic physician who lives in Oregon, in Eugene, Oregon, to be exact. And she's been practicing as a naturopathic doctor for about 10 years. She specializes in understanding the gut brain connection and the microbiome and how stress affects our microbiome. I'm excited to be able to share more about that today. For those of you who've been already really wanting to figure out more about your gut and how it connects with the rest of your health. So welcome. Thanks for being here today. Kathryn, I'm so glad you're here with me.

Yes, I am, too. Thank you so much for having me. This is my favorite topic. So I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Oh, good. Well, tell us more. First, about you. Like, how did you get inspired to become a naturopathic doctor and what are the things you love about what you do with patients?

Well, before school, I was a competitive athlete, so I was really aware of how food and different things affect the body. And then I started from my competitive athletics, I met a midwife and I started assisting with her just randomly. And I assisted with her for like five years. And that's when I realized this is what I want to do, not a midwife, because they're cut from a different cloth. They're amazing up at all hours. And I'm not that amazing. I have to go to bed. But I was amazed at the power of natural medicine and how.

Incredible the healing dynamic between the midwife and these birthing mothers. So that's when I started. I actually went back to school. I graduated with a philosophy degree. So I went back to do all my pre med and went to naturopathic medical school.

Wow. Isn't that something? And I have to. I'm excited because I know people who've studied philosophy tend to bring philosophy into. I would think you bring it into your way of practicing medicine, helping people understand themselves and what are we doing here on this planet and how can we honor that and honor our ourselves and our health?

Absolutely, absolutely. I once had an organic chemistry teacher say, no, I don't want to hear what you think the molecules are doing. I want you to give me the answer that I want. That's how you're going to pass. So I definitely bring that philosophy in, even if it isn't always helpful.

I love it. I mean, I think that just helps us all see the bigger picture. And sometimes that makes a difference because if we're. We're not seeing the big picture, it can lead to more fear and anxiety and the more we can understand about our bodies and our place in this world, I think that can make a difference in terms of just the choices we make each day. So I'm excited about how you bring philosophy to nature, pathic medicine, and let's dive into talking about specifically gut health, you know, today and how. And sort of almost like the environment and sort of the science and the. Even the philosophy of our gut. I'm wondering if, I mean, because I know you do a lot of work related to the microbiome. Let's start just like, what is the microbiome? How do you describe it? How do you. What do you think helps people understand these bacteria living in our intestines?

I really like to bring it back. That's a great question. I really like to bring it back to ecosystems. You know, we all got that education in primary school about food webs and how connected ecosystems are, and that's really what's happening in our gut microbiome. We have bacteria, fungi and viruses, all kinds of different species working together. Now, when we first started doing research on the gut microbiome, we were isolating specific strains and really getting down to, what does this bacteria do, what does that bacteria do? And the more we look at it, the more we realize these are teams of players.

They are working in what now research is calling guilds, right? Microbial guilds. So these groups of microbes. And like I said, it's not just bacteria, it's viruses and fungi and yeast. They are working together to create an ecosystem, and, boy, are they good at it. So changes that we make in our diet or that come from stress or our environment directly impact that internal ecosystem.

I think it's really amazing when we think of it that way, like, first of all, just to realize because for a long time we were kind of thinking of ourselves as sterile, you know, like. Or trying to be sterile, which would mean no bacteria around or no germs, right? But then we realize, oh, my gosh, we have this whole, like you're saying, ecosystem of microbes living in us and on us. And even that sometimes makes you just kind of stand back and go, whoa, you know, we're part of a bigger oneness with the world than we can't really separate ourselves from other, you know, because this other is right here in us. And then, like you're saying, to realize that we can't even think about the bacteria in terms of their individual function so much, we have to think of them in terms of their. Their function as a whole interactive system. And then to realize that what we eat influences who's living in our gut and our stress in our environment, in our past influences who's living in our gut. It's so amazing.

It is so amazing. It is so amazing. And the science is just. It's like drinking from a fire hose. There's so much coming out in the research, and it's so exciting because, you know, we were talking about philosophy a little bit ago. Some of these things that we've known forever are coming out with, you know, hardcore repeatable science backing behind them. It's really exciting. I just read a study about how climate change is causing a change in the microbiome of mammals and reptiles, and that is going.

And making infections, deadly infections more likely. Like you had mentioned earlier, there's no definitive line between ourselves and other.

What we do in our internal ecosystem, so to speak, directly impacts the environment outside of us. And the vice versa is true. Like I said, I just read that study about climate change changing the microbiomes of animals and that change making infectious diseases more rampant and more severe, which, you know, in this day and age, we are very concerned about our infectious diseases. And to see that the scientific community and researchers and scientists, scientists are coming out saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We've got to look at more than just what's under the microscope or what's in the lab. There is no line. You know, we are all so intimately connected.

Wow. And the. I mean, let's, let's talk more about this connection to the immune system, because even when we think about, you know, okay, there's these bacteria living in our gut, they're doing their thing, we're feeding them. Whatever we eat, they're feeding on fuv. And even to that extent, if they, you know, if you're eating foods that are higher sugar, for example, you're going to grow bacteria that like sugar. Or if you eat more berries, you're going to grow bacteria that like berries. So we can even. Like that really made me think there for a couple years I did a lot of measuring the gut bacteria with a stool panel. You know, look at a person's, what are their. Because we can do that. We can actually there are these DNA stool panels where we can measure who's living in there. And there are some of them that are, as you know, consumer based, that you can order easily online. And then there's more clinical based DNA stool analysis. But by looking at that and seeing when there's a higher amount of certain bacteria or a lower amount of certain bacteria, and even playing with how can we shift the diet in order to shift the population of bacteria. And I think what I learned from that is there's definitely value to it, but at the same time, sometimes the same food that might feed a healthy bacteria might also feed an unhealthy bacteria. And so you kind of catch yourself in these little spots where it really comes back to realizing that it's not necessarily just about a single food or a single bacteria. We have to look at it as the overall ecosystem and how to eat in a variety of foods, variety of foods and a variety of fibers so that we grow a diversity in our gut population. I mean, maybe you have some thoughts on that as well.

Absolutely, I completely agree. And I think a lot of it really, if we take a step back, we see that we kind of have taken ourselves out of the ecosystem in medicine, in science, and we place ourselves in the driver's seat and the dominant seat, rather than really looking at our place in the ecosystem. And our place forever has been one of a really plant based diet. Not to say that we should only be eating plants, but that was the majority of our food intake. Evolutionarily speaking, we've been eating plants way more than we have been eating chips.

You know, really getting back to the way our place, ecosystem, and that place is.

A mammal that eats a lot of different variety of plants. We also evolved by waterways. So those Omega 3s really play a huge piece in gut health and brain health and mood health. There's so much with the diet and we get really reductionistic about it. You know, I have people DM me on Instagram saying, okay, I'm eating my onions for resistant starches and it's not better. And it's like, well, it's a whole thing, it's a whole package of being in a place that we evolved with, eating the foods that we evolved with, maintaining those circadian rhythms that we evolved with. You know, I think that most of our problems come from our removal of ourselves from the ecosystem. And looking at it from this place of dominance. And okay, we're going to do this and do that and dominate the germs and dominate the microbes and dominate the plants, rather than seeing how it's all connected and seeing how those things can give us health and how we can give them health. And it's really this bi directional relationship.

That'S so, it's, I think that's so interesting and so insightful. I mean, even we can get so focused on doing something that's supposed to be healthy. Overly focused. Right. Like a lot of times I hear, you know, you hear, oh, kombucha is good for you. And so then, you know, you've, you hear people wanting to have kombucha every day, all day, or kale is good for you. So then you're having kale all the time. And it's like realizing that it's much more of a. I almost think of it as like a tightrope walk, you know, but what you're describing, like honoring our bodies and our, and the, and the moderation and diversity that, where we can walk in the middle. Like, yes, some fermented foods are good, some greens and kale are good, but if we have too much of a good thing, it can actually cause the bacteria to overgrow and then we have an overgrowth of bacteria. Even an overgrowth of good bacteria can be a bad thing.

Absolutely, absolutely. It's all really this tightrope, like you said, this balancing act. And I think it came a little bit more naturally when we didn't have as many options, you know, and it really is up to us to kind of.

Toe that line or be cognizant of how our diet, I mean, the list goes on and on of things that can impact the gut, right? Our diet, our reactions to stress, our trauma history, our environmental toxin exposure. I mean, the just goes on and on. Latent infections and I mean, you know, all this. But I think it's important to just kind of speak about how there's so many things that affect our gut microbiome and thus our immune system.

And it's, and it's this. You want to acknowledge that there's so many factors that influence, but also try to not get overwhelmed by that because sometimes then you're just like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? Do I just give up? But I, you know, I think like, what you do is just to encourage people to have awareness for all these factors and then just realize that that's part of being human is having an awareness for all these influences on our body and how to just on a daily basis, practice finding what works best for your body. But I. You mentioned the trauma history. I'd love to talk a bit more about that because I know that's something that you really write about a lot, is how even like, that's pretty amazing to think that our trauma history or our stress, not just in the present moment, but from the past, can influence our gut bacteria. Tell me more about your thoughts on that.

Absolutely. It is really amazing. We see that.

Okay, first of all, we've got a lot of stress and trauma in our society, right? And when we talk about stress and trauma, it's often this bootstrap thing. You know, just pull yourself up from the bootstraps and get better. And it's really much bigger than that. And when we're talking about how stress and trauma influences the gut microbiome, we need to realize that a lot of this happens at an early age. And there's been lots of studies about the aces, the adverse childhood events. Right. And the last one that was done a few years ago pointed to 60% of the population having more than two ACEs, more than two adverse childhood events. And when you look at how they're defining what an adverse event is, bullying is included, divorce, financial insecurity, I mean, I think we'd be hard pressed to find someone that wasn't experiencing some stress at this time. So, you know, you know, and talking about all the different things that affect stress just like we did can be overwhelming. But it can be really empowering to know also that there's so many avenues to heal that. And so what happens with that early childhood stress or trauma is that it deranges the gut microbiome. And that derangement that shift, it shifts from beneficial bacteria to more harmful bacteria, more inflammatory producing.

Metabolites. Those bacteria that shift that happens from chronic stress or trauma can last a lifetime. So we're seeing this in our autoimmune patients. You know, there was a study that came out probably too long ago to be accurate. I think it was 2016 showed that 60, no, 70% of autoimmune patients had adverse childhood event. So that that trauma, that stress, was really the seed to lay the inflammation and the inflammatory biology that leads to autoimmune conditions, chronic diseases. We see that there's a definite connection between trauma and stress and chronic disease across the board. Cardiovascular disease, autoimmune disease, diabetes. I mean, just across the board. Now, when we're talking about this, and feel free to interrupt Me anytime. But when we're talking about this, there's a couple things that are happening. So there's that shift in the gut microbiome. And one of the really important things that our gut microbiome is doing is it's creating short chain fatty acids. So when we're eating fiber that can't be digested, it's going down into the colon and it's being fermented and transformed into short chain fatty acids. And those are fueling the cells that line the intestinal tract in the colon. And when that happens, it triggers the production of T regulatory cells. So our immune System has that TH1.

Infection and cancer fighting arm. It has the TH2 allergies and parasites. It has its TH17, which is autoimmunity. TH13 getting into asthma. All of those reactions can be shut down by our Treg cells. You know, they're sort of the superheroes of the immune system. They go down and say, no, we don't need to be inflamed anymore, no, we don't want to start an autoimmune reaction. No, we're going to stop fighting this. You know, they're the real peacemakers and they take a dive with chronic stress and trauma. And again, that dive can last a lifetime. So at the same time, as you see that shift in the gut microbiome, you see that decrease in T regulatory cells and that sets up the foundation for uncontrolled inflammation leading to chronic disease. So that's what we've got going on. But there are so many points of entry to prevent this, to reverse this, to heal this. It's really, really gets at that kind of holographic universe where there's so many ways. There's not just.

Well you had the trauma, what now? There's so many ways to increase our resilience, to heal from trauma and to be really resistant to future traumas and stresses.

Something a lot of people don't know is that too much stress can actually create an abundance of health problems like high blood pressure, high blood sugar, anxiety, migraines, insomnia, even fertility issues. This is because high stress puts your adrenal glands on overload. They release cortisol and adrenaline, which controls your digestion, hormones, immune system energy, energy focus and even your emotional response. So how can you beat stress when you don't know where to start? That's why we have a free 7 day stress reset program. It's designed to help support weight loss, digestive healing and hormone balancing. It includes support for integrating self care, daily tips Come to you by email and video. Gluten free dairy free meal plans as well as grocery shopping lists, journal pages and more. This free program will help you beat stress and put you on the path to wholeness in your body. Get your plan now for free@drdonnie.com yeah.

I think, I'm so glad you're saying that and offering that hope because it's true. I think a lot of times we were led to believe, well, it was in the past, I can't do anything about it or certainly there's different kinds of therapy that can help with processing past stresses. And, and I'm sure both of us do a lot of work to help people to get their gut bacteria back on track again, which is so cool. And of course we're learning more and more every day about that. But I wonder if you could share, what are some of your favorite ways to help people know? Like to send them down this path of knowing, hey, I can solve this. We can recover from the effect that stress had on our bodies and actually get our gut bacteria back on track and therefore get our immune system helping us out instead of increasing inflammation, working against inflammation. Talk us through some of your favorite approaches to do that.

Absolutely. Well, you just mentioned talk therapy and there's such a huge range. Neurofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy. These have been shown to reverse that gut microbiome change that happens with trauma and stress.

Isn't that amazing? Like even doing therapy for your mind influences the bacteria in your gut.

It is so amazing. And so that's why I do, I like to go through all the different ways that trauma and stress impact us because those are the ways that we can heal. And the more ways, you know, you illustrate, like the gut microbiome, talk therapy. So yes, there's so many different ways to affect this. And traditional therapy, neurofeedback, heart math. Neurofeedback is my favorite. I love to use it with my patients and my family actually, and myself. That's one of my absolute favorite ones. But any kind of.

Sorry to interrupt you. I was going to say let's talk more about that. I was wanting to ask you about the vagal nerve anyway, so maybe tell us about this vagal nerve and the connection to the heart and how that kind of mindfulness therapy can help with healing our nervous system, our heart and our gut at the same time.

Absolutely. It's just amazing how connected we are. So the vagus nerve is the longest nerve, cranial nerve, and it has a regulatory effect over so much of our biology, right? And the vagus nerve is part of our nervous system and the two branches of our nervous system. Just to kind of.

Just a little background on this, we have our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous system. Our parasympathetic is that rest and digest safety. That's when we repair from injury. That's when we assimilate all of our food and nutrients and do our.

Necessary vital biological processes, right? That's when that's happening. Now our sympathetic nervous system is what happens when a bear jumps out at us or cuts us off in traffic, whatever it may be. And that stressor, we go into stress response, right? Fight or flight, freezing, there's detachment, there's all kinds of different stress responses, but the sympathetic nervous system is in charge of that. So those two parts of our nervous system are in that vagus nerve, right? And so what we're now seeing in the research with that heart, brain neurology, it really is connected by the vagus nerve. And our emotions and our feelings have a direct, direct effect on that.

Neurological highway, for lack of a better word, right? So our heart has a really immense capacity for sensing. Basically, you know, when we're talking about safety and we're talking about trauma, we're talking about whether we feel safe and whether our biology feels safe. And our heart actually has.

Way more sensatory pathways for whether we are safe or whether we are in fight or flight mode. So that is what is going on with that vagus nerve. And so when I am feeling safe and calm, that neurological highway is intact. My frontal lobe is able to make clear rational decisions. My gut microbiome is shifted to that beneficial.

Species or guilds, so to speak. And the reverse is true. When I feel threatened or stressed or have that trauma response, it literally inhibits that frontal lobe.

Rational thought, calm, thought out things. Because now we're not in a space where that's helpful. You know, if you want to get away from a bear, you're not supposed to think about the greater context. You're supposed to shut that down, get the blood to the muscles and run. But so much of our trauma and stress doesn't come from acute stressors like a bear jumping at us, right? It comes from a lifetime of not being safe. And that's a real thing. For people with chronic stress and trauma, the goal isn't to get rid of the stressors or to get rid of the trauma. Because so many of us live in.

Lives, you know, unsafe.

Ongoing stress.

Yeah, yes, ongoing stress. Ongoing trauma. So the work isn't about getting rid of those. The work is about really boosting that resilience so that we can come in contact, you know, come face to face with those stressors and traumas and take it in time and come back and bounce back strong so that we can fix the systems that are perpetuating trauma. So it's really exciting that we can boost our resilience in so many ways. Just that mind, body connection that we were talking about can have such a profound effect on our biology, on our gut microbiome, and really the world around us, each other and the world around us. We might not want to go there right now, but there's so much to this. It's really, really incredible. If this is sparking people's interest, Googling heart coherence and heart math is a really great thing to do because heart coherence is that state of that highway being intact from the heart to the brain via the vagus nerve. Right.

I love that word, coherence. And it comes back to what they also call heart rate variability. Right. Like, we can actually look at how, like, there's a certain amount of variability in our heart rate and based on that variability, can tell us how our heart and vagus nerve are responding to stress. Right. Tell us more about how that works.

Absolutely, absolutely. And so we talked about the two different parts of the nervous system. And what a person who is resilient to stress and trauma will do is they'll have two competing.

Inputs. Right. So the parasympathetic is saying, slow down heart rate, and the sympathetic is saying, nope, speed up heart rate. And both of those messages are appropriate. So that's where the heart rate variability comes into play. You know, we have this idea of our heartbeat as like a drum, you know, this beating drum at the same rhythm. And it's really not. It really shouldn't be. At least we really need that variance in the heart rate. And that variance comes from, just like I said, the parasympathetic saying slow down and the sympathetic speed up. Absolutely.

Back to this balance thing again. Like, we need a balance in the parasympathetic and sympathetic, and we need a balance of our gut bacteria. But what you're doing is you're. It sounds like you're using the heart rate variability and seeing that when there's a healthy amount of variability, that kind of. Does that kind of indicate to you that that person also has a healthy balance of gut bacteria?

It does. It, you know, obviously isn't a direct measure because there's going to be some people that can still have a great heart rate variability, even if their gut microbiome is a little off because they have so much other foundation in place, their nervous system, their toxin level, their connection with all these other variables, basically. Absolutely. All the other variables, yes.

But that's interesting that you can then use the heart rate variability with the heart math approach to help them basically improve their heart rate variability. Improve that balance of the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system.

Absolutely. And that really helps improve people's resilience to the stress and traumas of everyday life. And that is such a rewarding thing to see. I love that. And HeartMath is a great one also for families. You know, our whole family does it and there's some really great graphics and games for kids. So it's a great one for families that are trying to heal this lifestyle of chronic stress and trauma.

Now do people, can people access that on their own or should they connect with you for help with that? Or what's the best way to. To learn more about implementing HeartMath?

Absolutely, they can absolutely contact me. I'd be more than happy to help. I'm actually sort of in the middle of this social media series about trauma and the gut and the immune system and the heart brain. So I'm gonna just continue on that. Right now we are talking about heart rate variability and next we're going to heart coherence. So I'd love people to check that out if they have some interest. But working with a heartmath.

Trainer is really great. And you know, heart math is just one of the somatic education things that people can do for trauma. And I usually don't do this, but I have been sending people to YouTube because there are some great videos out there. Tre is a tension releasing exercise. There's so many different somatic release exercises that people can do because we know that our muscles really carry that memory of trauma. So doing something physically to Release that trauma. HeartMath has a lot of visualization and breathing. Some of the somatic educations are stretching and releasing in all kinds of different ways. So there's bound to be something out there that suits people's individual style. You know, I can't. Well, I can now, but I'm not the best at sitting and meditating. I'm more of an active person. Right. So some of the qigong, some of that thing really speaks to me. So there has to be that individual matching. Right. So I encourage people to check out what I've been saying on Instagram, Google Somatic.

Release on YouTube and see what works for you. And then find someone that can really help guide and dive deeper into that work with you.

Thank you so much. And I, and I'm, I'm seeing that, I mean, I'm making this connection that we can, by healing the trauma and helping our body recover from stress, we can help our gut bacteria, we can help our immune system in that way. Because as you've explained, our gut bacteria are directly communicating with our immune system. They also directly communicate with our nervous system. So it's like in some ways we can see that if our gut bacteria are working against us, it's going to be really tough. We're going to have increased risk of these health issues. You've been mentioning everything from heart disease and diabetes and, and also dementia and osteoporosis. Right. We're seeing research on all these different health issues connected with an imbalanced gut bacteria. But at the same time, if we can get our gut bacteria rebalanced now we have them helping us out, we can have them working for us instead of against us to help us fend off infections and help us keep healthy heart and brain and immune system and nervous system. So it's, I really feel like it's such a key area to learn how. And we're, of course, the studies, as you're saying. There's so many new studies helping us learn how to optimize that ecosystem.

And I love that you're really connecting it to the greater world around us and how even things that we may not even realize as stresses, like if we're not getting good sleep or our circadian rhythms off or we're, you know, things that, that are, as a human bodies, what we perceive in our environment can have that much influence on that whole ecosystem. And to be able to learn how to harness that for our, for our benefit, you know, to our benefit. And is the, is the, basically the practice, the daily practice.

And I want to just mention this piece about how that can even shift our genetic expression. Right. This is what we call epigenetics.

How what we're doing with our stress recovery and supporting our health can actually influence how our genes express for ourselves and for future generations. Touch on that a little bit too, if you don't mind.

Absolutely. That is just mind blowing, isn't it? So epigenetics is just that, how my genetics influence generations to come and how my ancestors genetics influence me. And I think probably a lot of listeners have seen some of the memes and research out about 14 generations. It can be passed. Trauma can be passed down 14 generations. And it can be really overwhelming. So let's break this down. So what does that mean that trauma can be passed down generationally? What that means is the nervous system response can be passed on generationally, right? So that dumping of cortisol and epinephrine when that bear jumps at us, that can be passed down generationally. So myself, I was gifted. I inherited a very hyper reactive nervous system, right? So very hyper vigilant in that kind of fight or flight mode. I can see it in my father, I can see it in my son. Not everyone in our family was gifted with this, but we are. And so what that means is when I experience a stress, I will have more cortisol secretion release, I will have more epinephrine and norepinephrine, more of those fight or flight neurotransmitters and chemicals in my body in response to stress and trauma versus someone else that doesn't have those genetics. And so we can see just right there, right there, the promise for reversing that. All we need to do is work on that nervous system response. And there's so many ways to do that. But when we talk about epigenetics, that's exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about the way in which our nervous system responds. And, and as far as trauma responses go, there are a few different ones. There's that hyper vigilant one that I was just explaining about with myself, very high cortisol, hypervigilant fight or flight zone. Then there's the kind of frozen stress response and there's even a further one that's kind of really detached from the trauma. And these different responses can be passed down genetically, and they're also really associated with poor health outcomes. So the goal is for us, for us to do this for ourselves and to know that it heals generations to come. Can be so powerful because it's not.

All or nothing thing. It's not a, oh, you have trauma, oh, you're gonna have this genetic pattern passed down for generations. Or you know, these health conditions that are associated with that, passed down for generations. It really highlights the power that we have to change it in the moment right now with ourselves, with our children, with very simple things. Breathing. You know, when we talk about heart coherence, really what that is is having a happy, loving, safe thought and breathing. So some of these things are really, they're free, they are available to everybody, and it's really exciting that Something like that can change the health of your family for generations to come is just. It's so empowering. It's so empowering.

Thank you so much for sharing with us. I really feel like this has been going to be so helpful for everyone listening. And how can they find you, Kathryn, if they want to connect with you more specifically? I know you mentioned social media. Do you have a website as well or a good way to reach you?

I do. It's Dr. Clifford DrKatherine Clinton dot com. It's just my name dot com. And that's where I've got all the stuff that I love talking about trauma and gut microbiome and terrain and how. How it's all connected.

I love it. And you're Katherine with a C, so Catherine Clinton. Both C's. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. What a joy to get to connect with you. And thank you so much for joining. I look forward to talking to you again very soon.

Well, thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure talking with you. I'd love to talk with you again and I just love what you're doing. It's so important. So thank you.

You're welcome. You're welcome.

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