#202 How to Improve Your Relationship with Dr. Sarah Salzman

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Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson, and today I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Sarah Salzman. She's a leading couples psychologist and she's the founder and CEO of the Couples Communication Institute. That means that she specializes in helping people, helping humans to communicate with each other, especially in relationship with each other. Thank you so much for joining me today, Sarah.

It's my pleasure, Dr. Donnie.

Oh, my gosh. And you live where I grew up, which is in the Pacific Northwest. And I know that you help couples not just in the Pacific Northwest, all around the country. And even you also help people outside of the U.S.

Sure, sure. Doesn't matter, right?

Doesn't matter.

I love that. That's the amazing thing when you're helping people in an online forum and it sounds like your mission is really like to help people feel more confident and comfortable and safe in their. In their couple communications. But tell us more. Like, how do you describe it? What are you finding in your work? Because you've been at this for more than 35 years, right?

Yes, I have. And what I would say is my mission is that when a couple can really communicate and build the kind of relationship where they both feel stainless, heard, understood and supported, then they both can bring their own missions to their families and their communities, their careers and the world that just think how much more you can do, how much more you can accomplish when you have the true backing of a connected partner.

And really, when you describe it like that, I think that's really a new definition of a relationship. Like, we're so used to relationships being maybe unequal or not supported. And can you talk to that a little bit? Like, what do you think is the evolution of human relationship?

That's a huge topic, Donnie. So just super briefly, the evolution of relationships, you know, stories about you just got married to either join kingdoms or join properties. You got married to raise a family who would help you with your farming. Things like that. And marriage for love is only. I don't remember any more couple hundred years old. And now not only do we kind of expect to be married for love, but we expect to be married for committed or in long term relationships for deep personal growth and fulfillment. And it is a lot to ask of a relationship. It's a lot to expect. And so really in modern times, if you want to have that connected, lasting, deeply fulfilling relationship that really I think we do all want, it takes a lot of extra focus and intention and motivation and hard work.

Well, and that's the thing is we are not taught this in school. You know, we're not taught this and you know, anywhere else in our lives. And so I think a lot of people and you know, they find themselves in relationship because of course we, we have an innate desire to be with another human and of course to be able to create a family and have that intimacy and connectivity. And yet sometimes people then find themselves in a relationship and then find it becoming very tense and difficult. Is that when people seek out your services?

Well, a really famous quote from Dr. John Gottman is that people wait an average of six or seven years beyond when they first knew they needed help. And it is true that people wait until things have become so tense, things have deteriorated to the point and I think this has been changing more recently, but to the point where, oh no, therapy is a last resort. I so much want to change that. And with my online course, it's not a last resort. It's getting, Donna, you just said we didn't learn this, we weren't taught this. There are skills that you can learn, there's practices that you can get better at to have a much better relationship. Don't wait. You know, just my, my dream is that as people enter into a relationship or enter into adulthood, they learn this.

Wow, wouldn't that be amazing to even have it integrated into our, you know, primary education models and, and, and, or when some, you know, when people decide, hey, we're in this relationship or we're choosing to, whether someone's choosing to be married or not, but they see that the relationships getting serious, hey, this is a time to get guidance on how to really support our relationship. Because I think we end up feeling like we're failing if we need help or. Right. Like people judge themselves if they aren't, if they feel like something's not happening. Right. And I think that I find that a lot of people, of course when we're in close relationship with another human is when we're most likely to be triggered, have past traumas, re triggered. Right. So of course we can't, we shouldn't be surprised that if we are Feeling triggered. Of course it's going to happen in our close relationship.

Absolutely right. You know, when I'm all by myself, I'm not triggered by anything, and I think I'm the greatest person. But then having to get along with somebody and be a good listener and, you know, it really changes things. Not only do we worry that we're failing, another worry that is so common I've heard from people forever, is, I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Somehow there's this expectation of effortlessness that if my partner is my soulmate and we were meant to be together, then everything will always be wonderful and perfect and easy. And so when those challenges come up, or like you said, when we get triggered by something, it's frightening to many people. Oh, no, I guess this whole thing absolutely is wrong. You know, shouldn't be. And that's not the case.

So when you help couples, are you working with them? Like, are they together as a couple, or do you also work with them as individuals? How does that look? So just so people have a sense of, like, how does that. How does that support system occur? What do you find works best?

My private practice is currently closed because I am only seeing people through my communication course. But when I was in private practice, my preferred thing, if a couple wanted couples help, is that I would work with both of them together.

Other therapists have different ways of working with people, but for me, what I found the most helpful is I want to help the two people to learn how to work and talk with each other. It's not helpful for me. Like, I can be the one who understands this person, and I can be the one who understands that person. That's not the kind of help that I think is most valuable. I want to be the person who helps the two of you really learn how and practice how to talk with each other at the same time. I've had many couples. I'm sorry, Many people come in by themselves, wanting to work on themselves and how they can be better in a relationship. And that's really a powerful thing. And I do that in my course as well. You can take my course by yourself. When you know that you don't know how to do a relationship and you don't know how to be a good listener, or you don't know how to settle yourself down, you can get help by yourself to build those skills. But like you said Donnie a few minutes ago, I'm so. Well, it's completely true that we're going to be most triggered by the one person that we're in that intimate relationship with. So I don't want to take the focus off that. I want to be there to help the two of you navigate your way through your relationship together.

Yeah. Because it seems to me that that's when a lot of the difficulties come in, is when, you know, maybe one person is wanting one thing, because this is the thing we're. We're having a lot of times having two humans living in the same building or space together, and they're making decisions together. Everything from what to eat and when to go to bed and when to go on vacation. That's a lot of decisions to make together. And two individuals may likely not going to agree on all of that. So, you know, seems like there is going to be a lot of opportunity for how do we honor both people's desires? And, of course, different people are going to be sensitive to different things in the environment. So there's a lot of variables at play, including where someone's past might come up. And I'm curious because, I mean, my perception is that a lot of times how we experience relationships in our life now is related to what we experienced as models of relationship in our childhood. Would you agree with that? What we see as modeling in relationships in childhood, like, say, from our parents, for example, does that. Do you find that that plays into what people are, you know, is that part of how they're mastering their relationship now is to understand their prior experience with relationships?

That is a yes and kind of an answer. So, yes, absolutely. We are shaped by our parents and the close people who raised us. Unquestionably. You know, I learned, for example, to eat with a fork. Other people learn to eat with chopsticks. It's never going to leave me. It's a part of me. I don't question it. And it's the same thing with how did my parents relate to each other. It's just in there now. That doesn't mean that I model it. I might do the opposite. I might have seen my parents always fighting, and I might vow, I'm not going to do that. But there's a big gap there. What do I do instead of. I never got to see what you do instead. For example.

At the same time, when I am doing therapy, it's interesting and important to talk about parents, but I don't do psychoanalytic work with people in couples therapy. But I encourage the couple. Well, here's again, the word that you brought up, trigger. If there's something that a person is triggered by with their partner, I Encourage them after the fact, after they calm down and think about it. Take a day or two to come together on purpose to have a conversation about what just happened between us, what set us off, and then to spend some time reflecting and sharing with your partner what that trigger was. So for example, when you.

Told me that I never put my dish in the dishwasher and it bothers you, that triggered me because I remember as a child being criticized for not putting my things away. And in fact, and then I'm going to go on and tell you the story about one of the times that I was criticized or punished or abused by my parent for not putting my things away. And I'm letting you know this to let you know what, what's called my enduring vulnerability. I have an enduring vulnerability about being called on for not putting my things away so that we as a team can understand this more and more. So I might not have any vulnerability all about, I don't know, being late. Like if you tell me I was late, I might be fine about that and never triggered. But in my family, I was criticized for not putting my things away. When this happens between the two of us anyway, what I'm trying to say is.

What happened when we were children, let's bring that out into the open and just share that as my vulnerability and we'll build and build together how we can cope with this.

Well, I think that's the key piece is that a lot of times it feels scary to be vulnerable, right? It feels scary. We might even if we, we might not even be aware of what happened, why we got triggered. But even once we become more aware of, oh this, this reminds me of my childhood, then sometimes we feel afraid or embarrassed to mention, like what you were just talking about. Do you. So is that, is that some of the work? It's just learning, hey, actually through vulnerability, we become more close to our partners. Would you say?

Yes, Donny.

This is going to sound like a tangent, but it is not a tangent. This speaks to the one and only fight or flight response that we have built into our bodies. We evolved to be able to protect ourselves and stay alive in the face of life threatening danger. So we evolved because there were saber toothed tigers in the vicinity. So the whole sympathetic nervous system burst that change of switch where we are now ready to attack or run away or whatever. That's the only.

That'S the only way we respond to something that's threatening. So now when we feel uncomfortable or when we feel embarrassed or when we feel some negative emotion or I'm not sure how this is going to go. That fight or flight response is still what's triggered. And one of the solutions is to learn how to relax your body.

When you are feeling upset. And you instead, you know, when you make the conscious choice, I don't want to just sit here being upset. I want to move beyond this. Step number one is to learn how to relax yourself.

How to soothe yourself, how to do self soothing. Tell yourself things like, it's okay, it's not dangerous. I can become vulnerable to my partner because my partner is not a saber toothed tiger. But you can imagine evolutionarily vulnerability is death. If I was vulnerable in front of the saber tooth tiger, I'm dead in one second. It lights out. So you and I have to develop this relationship where I can calm myself down enough to see you as a safe person to open up and share my. But also you learn how to calm down and return. And so you're not like on the attack. If I'm afraid, oh, if I let down my guard and calm down, she can just move in and attack.

And in some relationships that can happen. So it can. And sometimes people have had experiences in abusive relationships. And so I can imagine this is, this can be quite a process of, you know, of, of like you're saying, start by learning how to do the self soothing so that when you're in a relationship with a safe person that you can practice and with each other. Right. Because it needs to be able to go both ways.

Donnie, a word that I want to share with you and your viewers is discernment. So when I was saying just a minute ago, you know, you are safe, you're not a saber toothed tiger. I have to use discernment. It true that yourself you're safe or have you been abusive to me? And if you've been abusive to me, I can't sweep that under the rug. And you know, maybe the two of us can change. Maybe we can go to couples therapy, maybe an abusive partner can go to anger management. But you have to assess what's going on in your own relationship. And if your partner is dangerous to you, go get help by yourself, go see a domestic violence counselor and get some help. However, like you said, when you're in a new relationship with a new person who is proving themselves to be safe, then yes, you can work this out and learn together how to calm both of yourselves down so you can make sure to keep your conversations.

Would you be able to just share with us like you and I can think this through how does a person in that tense moment of, you know, feeling triggered and being in a conversation or, you know, disagreement with another human, another person in a relationship in this, I think, not only goes for people in a, let's say couple situation, but even between friends, you know, if there's a tense situation, how do you discern between what are the things to look for to know that this is more of an abusive situation? What are the feelings or experiences someone might identify that is like, oh, wait a minute, this is now becoming not a safe, not a supportive relationship or conversation?

Well, when you set a boundary when you speak up for yourself, well, I guess that's making an assumption. Supposing that you stand up for yourself and you set a boundary and you say something like, please stop, or you know, I don't want to talk about this right now, or you know, I'm going to go in the other room if the person doesn't let you stop, that's not a good sign. But also if you feel intimidated into not standing up for yourself, that's an important sign.

I'm actually not an expert in domestic violence, so I don't have at my fingertips, as others would, kind of the signs and symptoms that you're in an abusive relationship. But.

Let me say that when you're in a, let's call it for right now, a tense situation.

And recognizing that your body is tense, you're not relaxed, you're not just like hanging out anymore, all of a sudden you can feel your muscles are tense or your throat is closed, or you're having these worried thoughts. I encourage everybody to take a break. You don't have to answer, you don't have to continue. You can say, you know what, I'm feeling a little bit too overwhelmed right now. I want to take a break for a few minutes. Or you can say, I need to go to the bathroom, or you know what, give me a few minutes, I need to gather myself. And then you go and you take some time to calm down, whether it's deep breathing or meditation or something like that. Now if you're either in a relationship with someone or you have a long term friend or something, you can talk about this ahead of time and suggest, suggest, let's both do that. If ever there's a time where either one of us is feeling that tension, that stress, that, that feeling where we've left the good land and here we are, you know it's headed somewhere bad, if one of us says, I need to take a break, the other person's Only answer is, great idea. I will also.

So back to your question. If you try to do these things and the other person's like, oh, no, you get back here. We're not, you know, that's not necessarily abusive, but, you know, is that the kind of relationship you want to stay in long term? If you can really talk this out and let them know, when I let you know that I need to take a break, I need that to be respected. If they don't respect that, abusive or not, you know, that's not a situation that I would want to stay in.

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Yeah, yeah. And I want to add to that, yes, I was modeling it, but I was. Since right now I'm calm, I could model all these wonderful easy phrases. Oh, honey, let's take a break. But if I was truly, truly overwhelmed in the depths of fight or flight, I might not be able to say any of that. Here's something that you can always say. I need to go to the bathroom. You could even think of something if you can remind yourself of that. How many people don't let you go to the bathroom? You get up, there's something. Whether you're in the grocery store, like you said that you usually have a bathroom. You're in your office, you're in your home, you excuse yourself, you go to the bathroom. And then when you're in there with the door closed.

Here'S something to the best of your ability. Take some deep breaths. Here's something. Let yourself settle down. And then the thing about being in fight or flight is it's the animal brain and your body reacting. The higher processing, smart parts of your brain are not working. So if you feel those coming back online as you calm yourself down, then you might be able to praise one of those phrases I modeled. You can come out of the bathroom and say, you know what? I realize I'm a little overwhelmed. I need to take a break. If you can't say that yet, you know, just keep calming yourself down. Here's something with deep breaths. And you can stay in that bathroom as long as you'd like, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, yeah. Create space for yourself to recenter. And it's always so interesting to me too, that the more times you practice that the faster it seems like the nervous system can recover faster. You can find your way through it sooner. You know the. The vagus nerve and like you're saying the sympathetic response, it. I think we usually. I think of it as kind of lasting for maybe 90 seconds, but sometimes it can kind of re trigger itself and last a little longer. And you that the more times you. And the more you practice in your daily life to rebalance your stress response and your vagus nerve activity, the easier it is I think, to recover. Do you find that as well?

Well, some research shows that it can take 20 minutes for all of those fight or flight chemicals to get processed and out of your bloodstream and into your. Essentially into your urine.

Yeah, that makes sense. Especially, like, the cortisol responses. Takes longer. Yeah.

Right. So I think what you're speaking to, Donnie, is not just how quickly can you, you know, use that, your vagus nerve and settle yourself down, but also how quickly do you catch yourself. If you're into fight or flight and you're start, you know, you're fighting with your partner and you're yelling and you're screaming, you're going to need at least 20 minutes, if not an hour or two or more, to calm yourself down if you have that awareness. Like, oh, I'm getting tense. Yeah. Your central nervous system may be sending out the noradrenaline in the synapses, but maybe there hasn't been too much adrenaline yet, and maybe there hasn't been any cortisol yet, so you can come back from that state more quickly.

And I do want to just throw in when you go and take a break, you really just want to focus on calming down. What you do not want to do is what's called rehearsal. You don't want to be saying to yourself things like, I can't believe they said that to me, and, oh, my gosh, I should have said this, and how dare they do that. That just keeps you stirred up. That's just you inside hiding or running away in your brain, and it doesn't settle anything down. So, you know, just tell yourself things like take deep breaths. Or, you know, if you're practiced with using your vagal response, doing that, you know, swallowing or that. I'm losing the words here, Donnie.

But even. Yeah, like any even. I mean, the things I'm thinking of for Vegas besides, like, deep breath and, you know, like putting your hand on your heart and, you know, kind of like connecting with, you know, something that feels good to you. But I'm thinking like, you, if you can't, like, in that moment, it would be hard to switch to just, you know, things like. Because you're not in a state where you feel like, oh, I'm going to go sing, or, you know, do something that makes me feel good. It's hard to shift. But, yeah, I do think, like, you could start to kind of go, okay, let me. I mean, if you're in a certain situation, you might be able to go, okay, I'm going to get in the shower. That Might help or. Right. Like things you could choose that are soothing, especially if you're in your own bathroom, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's a whole range of things. A meeting, a business meeting is not going well. Go in the bathroom, take deep breaths for two minutes, come back. But if you've been having a big fight at home and you finally have some time to yourself, take a long bath, take a whole hour in the bathtub and calm yourself down and you.

Find, yeah, that sounds amazing. And so, you know, from there, I think that, you know, like listeners can get a sense of, like, this is how you're really helping people to, to learn to self soothe, but also then how to do that in relationship with another person and in. With this goal of being able to find that fulfilling relationship. Right. How to, how to be in a fulfilling relationship. And, and how to. Because I think sometimes too people feel like it's supposed to be automatic. It's not supposed to be where I'm working on it. But actually the way we're talking this through is like in the process of being in this relationship and spending this time with learning how to care for yourself, we think of a relationship where we're supposed to be caring for the other person, but we're talking about how to learn how to take care of yourself in these difficult conversations. And through that process, you're actually growing as an individual. Is that what that starts to look.

Like in the best cases? Absolutely. I think working together with your partner on your relationship, Neil will experience so much, really deeply satisfying personal growth, for sure.

And then when you're observing that in each other, it's like you have this newfound appreciation for this other person and how, you know, you feel excited and proud of them for what they've been able to, you know, to work through and to. And then new ways to connect with each other. Because I think I find that a lot of times another kind of myth of relationships is that it's going to be static. Right. Like people come together and they just are going to stay the same for decades. And, and I think that that myth can be confronting for people because they're like, oh, what if this other person has different interests or different, you know, different things they want to do in their life? How do we still match up as a couple?

Yeah, well, yeah, there's the matching up, but also what you said reminded me of the importance of the connection of knowing each other and being known by each other. And like you said, there's a. Sometimes there's this expectation that nothing will ever change. And along with that, nothing ever needs to be updated. So when we were first dating, we probably asked each other dozens and dozens of questions and we learned all this fun stuff. Like, I learned what your favorite movie was and your favorite color and all of these things. Well, it needs to be updated so, you know, we can have a really nice date night or an anniversary night. So what's your favorite color these days? Or, you know, I remember back when we met, your favorite movie was Beverly Hills Cock. How about these days? Do you have a new favorite movie? And, you know, I'm choosing trivial examples, but those are some of the things that keep us bonded, is knowing each other and like I said, feeling known by each other and being willing to be known by each other. When you ask me questions about me and you're updating your kind of database about who I am, oh, my gosh, it makes me feel really good. You're interested in me. You're curious about me. There are a few things that feel better between two people. So I really, really encourage people to just stay updated. Let each other know what's going on inside yourself. Because the other person can't know unless you share it with them.

Well, that's the thing is, like, sometimes it's the excitement of meeting a new person is because there's new information. But how do you bring that newness into a relationship that you've been in for a long time.

Yeah. And not have the assumption that nothing will ever change. Give your partner the respect of assuming that they have new thoughts and new ideas and that you're interested in knowing what those are.

One more question I want to ask you because I know you also have a quiz that people can do to help them learn more about their relationship and how they can. How they can learn from you about how to improve their experience. I wanted to ask if it's, if it's different for men and women. Like, do you find that in your, like, in terms of genders, do you find that men and. Or women have different experience of this couple's communication process?

You know, there are stereotypes and then there are.

The opposites to the stereotypes or whatever you want to call it. So, you know, maybe women are stereotypically more verbal or more emotional, but that's, that's not, not true. As, as often as it is true.

I would say more that different people are different. So I might want to have long conversations every day and another person might only want to talk a little. And so we're all going to be Different. But I think some of the things that are universal are we want to be treated well. I don't think there's any person of any gender that doesn't want to be treated well. You know, another thing, you know, is how we connect. There's something so important in being human, in making eye contact with each other and being in the same room and looking at each other. And so, you know, we're talking and I'm looking at my phone. How do you feel? Right. Like oh, Sarah's attention is not on me and she must not care about me. That's universal whether you're a man or a woman. And this universal whether you're in your 20s or whether you're in your 80s. It's not a generational thing. So rather than my phone, it could be a book, you know, or it could be the newspaper or it could be the television. If, if I'm not engaging with you with good eye contact. How do you person feels that? Very, very viscerally. So that's, that's a key to communication.

How do you.

Those are such amazing points. You know, just even bringing our attention to those maybe small things that we're doing when we're relating to another person. You know, how can we just. Yeah. Make sure that we're prioritizing really those connections? Because that's ultimately where I think a lot of the health benefits of being in a relationship with another human is in the connection. Right.

So true. The reason why you hear things that people have a longer life when they're in a relationship. It's when they're in a good relationship and they have that connection that when your partner puts their hand on your arm in a warm way that changes your body chemistry. That changes the chemistry in your brain. You know, it just, it's, it's, it's a very health giving thing. And either being single or much worse than single I think is in a relationship with somebody who's putting you down or dismissing you or ignoring you.

That's, that's damaging.

And so that's. Yeah. So it's like you want to be able to. Yeah. Look for how do we find ways to connect and have that oxytocin release in a. Relate any, any whatever kind of relationship. Or else how can we take steps to change that or how do we take steps to change, you know, change to a different. Change the relationship if that's, if that's not possible. And so tell us about the couples quiz that you created and how that can help people.

So it's a really quick quiz. It'll just take you two minutes, maybe three minutes at the top. And there are questions about your communication and you'll recognize a question in there. I ask something about, you know, do you, are you looking at screens or are you looking at something else when you're talking? You'll recognize that question when you come to it. And then you'll find out which communication zone that you're in and you'll get a free eight page guide about communication. And depending on the zone that you're in, you'll get tips for just one or two great steps to start with to start building your communication towards, you know, a healthier communication sound to healthier communication with your partner. So you'll learn what zone you're in and what steps to take using the guide to improve step by step.

I love that. I love that. So then already just from doing the quiz, they're all people are already going to get a sense of like, what can I do to start creating change and what is it? How does that feel to them, how you're supporting them? Because I mean to me, communicating with you always feels so supportive and you're listening. And I think even when you're working with a psychologist or someone who's going to help you with your, your own psychology or your own relationship, you want to also feel comfortable with that. And so I'm so glad you're here today to share so people really can see. Here's, here's how Sarah, you know, really brings this information to you in a way that's supportive and caring and, and, and so because that's really the environment that we can create a caring and supportive couples relationship too.

Yes, yes, thank you. That is my mission for sure.

I love it. So thank you so much for joining me today and I'm looking forward to those of you listening and what you've learned and for you to connect with Dr. Sarah and learn more about how you can have these like I would say not a stress free relationship because we're going to have stress, but it's how to be in relationship where it can be fulfilling and you get that benefit of connecting with another human instead of the opposite of that. And so I wish that for everyone as well. And thanks again for listening and please join me again for the next episode of How Humans Heal.

Thanks for listening to How Humans Heal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources, visit drdani.com.