#204 Solving Chronic Fatigue: A Naturopathic Approach to Restoring Energy with Dr. Jenny Tufenkian

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson and today I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Jenny Tuvenkian. She is a naturopathic physician from the Pacific Northwest, but she's helping people around the world with fatigue and particularly with long Covid type fatigue symptoms. So thank you so much for joining me today, Jenny. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about how you're helping people and what people may not realize is contributing to their low energy state of being. Right.

Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Donnie. It's just a pleasure to be here.

Oh, good. And I'm so glad. And it's always so wonderful to get to connect with another naturopathic doctor and to share more about naturopathic medicine and how we think about health issues. And I love how you're helping people with fatigue because I also find that it's one of the most common symptoms that people call with is fatigue. And the thing about it is there's a lot of possible underlying causes. So even before we talk about that, like, I want to go into what are the possible underlying causes of fatigue. But also before we even do that, maybe just give us your, like how you explain sort of the naturopathic view and this concept of looking at underlying causes. Because I think that for a lot of people, they've been go in the medical system going to doctor after doctor, specialist after specialist. Maybe they're telling their practitioners that they have fatigue along with other symptoms, but they feel like they're not getting anywhere. And so they might be listening in, saying, hey, I feel like I need a different perspective on this. And so do you mind just kind of saying, like, what is as natural doctors, how is it that we're looking at symptoms differently than what they might be experiencing in conventional medical appointments?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that a lot of people who struggle with exhaustion and fatigue do get dismissed and don't get the attention they deserve for a number of reasons. And one of them is exactly what you're talking about. It's that the medical model framework of conventional medicine doesn't really pay attention to those things that don't fit into neat, tidy little boxes. So if you go into your conventional physician and say, I'm tired, they're going to do their due diligence and run a few labs on you and they're looking for, gosh, are you anemic? Do you have acute mono, do you have, you know, is it something more scary going on? You know, is, you know, obviously cancer and those kinds of things can lead to fatigue as well. But once they get a no check, no check, no check, no check, no, it's like, you know, it's probably because you just, you know, your mom or, you know you're working or you're getting older now that you're 45, you're so old.

I know, right? Yes. Normal. Somehow it's normal to feel tired all the time. And so many people walk out going, wait a minute, like, how come my labs all be normal? But I feel awful.

Right, exactly, exactly. And I honestly think that part of the problem is that the way that we are in this culture, that there's this real. You get bonus points if you push yourself really hard. You get bonus points if you're super exhausted. And I know even as a naturopathic physician, I don't know if you found this in best year, but even as a naturopathic physician, when we were in medical school and when we were first practicing as residents, there was kind of this badge of honor in terms of, oh, how much I struggled and I gave up to be able to just keep going. Right. And so I think when you, frankly, when you go to your doctor and you say, oh, I'm tired, they're like, yeah, tell me about a kid.

Exactly. Oh, my gosh. I came out of nature b medical school very exhausted. Yeah, it's right. It's like so in their mind, the doctor's like, yeah, this is common. And they don't, they don't know how to help themselves either.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I remember I went in to see when I was really sick with chronic fatigue, one of the times I really crashed, I went to see a neurologist. I was having some neurological symptoms that were similar to what my dad was having and it was scaring me. And I went in to see a neurologist and she pretty much poo pooed everything I was saying. You know, she sort of like dismissed a lot of. But it was very interesting when I started talking about the adrenal glands and hypothalamus pituitary axis dysfunction. I could hear her perking up, going, now what is that like? As in, I think I have that.

Isn't that something? So the neurologist starts listening to you. I love it. I love it.

It was pretty interesting. Yeah. But I think that there are so many reasons why we can be tired and it's not normal to be tired. What I can say for people who are struggling with chronic fatigue, my encephalitis, long Covid or just have been exhausted for a long time. You're on that burnout tr. You can talk about different kinds of tired. Like wine connoisseurs can talk about fine wine. One of my patients, when I mentioned that to her, she says, oh, it's a sommelier of tired.

And I think that's, you know, and it's so true. There are different kinds of tired. So when I'm listening to my patients and clients talk about their fatigue, I'm really listening for what kind of tired Is it because there's the heavy weighted down in your limbs tired that can be from. It's often a viral. A chronic viral infection. It's something that's been reactivated or something that you just didn't kick out completely there. There's the kind of tired that there's that tired and wired feeling which we all know well, which is. Can be more of a imbalance of your hormones, of your adrenal glands, of being having either high or low cortisol levels that you're pushing through your energy, you know, your energy level all the time. So there's different things that I'm listening for when I'm listening for tired. And there are many, many, many root causes.

I'm so glad you're pointing that out. It's like in the English language, we might be using just the word fatigue. And I also remind myself sometimes that patients are, you know, probably not saying, I feel fatigue, the patient saying, I feel exhausted. Like you said, I feel tired. And maybe it's part of the day or all of the day. And so it's, you know, just recognizing that, that we want to pay attention to that first of all, that it's not just normal, that it's actually giving us information and that if we actually try to define it more specifically, it can actually give us more information about what maybe is underlying that isn't showing up in the standard CBC blood work. It's like, okay, what's really happening? So let's talk through that. Like, what are some of the. You already just mentioned some. But when you meet with Someone who's experiencing one of these versions of fatigue or tiredness and exhaustion, what are you finding are underlying causes that maybe people wouldn't necessarily realize or think of?

So, because.

The condition of chronic fatigue, Long Covid is so complex, and I was just listening to the NIH Dita. Every four years, they bring up the latest research on what's causing this condition, and they do a presentation. I've just been listening to that, and they still don't know what is the thing that causes these conditions. And I'm not sure we're ever going to find the thing. But until we do, what I have done is I've broken down that there are multiple root causes. There are five root causes that can lead to somebody having chronic fatigue. Long Covid. And this is something that, for the practitioner that might be listening or for if you're struggling with fatigue, it's really great to go through this list and to rule them in and rule them out. If you go through this list, that that overwhelming, terrifying feeling of just not having enough energy to get through your day can become something where you can feel an empowered actor in your life, where you're actually taking control and beginning to work through this process. So I always tell people, I don't have a protocol. I have a process where we're looking at what, what. Which health foundations do you need to address, and which of the root causes do you need to address? And there are five health foundations and five root causes. So the root causes that I'm looking at, the first one is I'm looking at what I call the hormone triangle, which is looking at that combination of the thyroid, the adrenals, and the ovary, or the testes if you're male. And I'm smiling because I just had somebody take my quiz who was male and said, I don't know if you care, but my ovaries have been fine.

And it is testes or ovaries. And that can be people who are on that stress express, who are pushing themselves, who have that feeling where they may wake up in the morning and feel like, oh, yeah, I have so much energy, today's the day I feel better. And then by the afternoon or, you know, late afternoon or lunchtime, they're just like, whoa, I'm done. That can easily be a sign of that. Of that adrenal glands just not being balanced. You know, there's thyroid. Hypothyroid can be part of it for sure. Full thyroid panel. As I know you know, we want to test all the free T3 the free T4, the TSH for the thyroid. The other root cause can be going on with the mitochondria. The mitochondria are the powerhouses of all of our cells and they're very vulnerable to the environment and what's going on in the world. And that cannot be functioning. And a lot of people have mitochondria problems. And the way what I'm listening for, if it's mitochondrial issue, is that they have what's called post exertion of malaise. They do too. They do more than they usually do and then crash out on the couch or for hours or days afterwards.

Another root cause can be toxic overload. And this relates with the mitochondria. People who are in have mold or mycotoxins in their environment. People who have too many heavy metals. Those of us who were around when lead was in gasoline have a lot of lead in our bones. And as we age the. That our body is pulling from our bones to balance out the acidity of our blood. And a lot of heavy metals get released. Many of us had mercury fillings in our mouth or live in places on the east coast where they're still burning coal. And we end up having a lot of mercury and lead. And those, those metals in particular go straight into that mitochondria and can really damage it. So it doesn't produce enough energy for us. There are other toxins, as we know, you know, pesticides, herbicides, those kinds of things that glyphosates that really impact us. The other is, the fourth is looking at infections. And those can be viral, bacterial, fungal infections. They are sneaky, you know, they just want to survive. And they are so good at surviving that they sneak in and often live inside the mitochondria or other tissues. And they take over the blood sugar production so that they're literally zapping your energy so that they can survive. And then you feel exhausted. So it's very important to look at that. Unfortunately, we don't have very good testing for those. And that can be a place where people feel stonewalled by their conventional doctors because they hear somebody like me talking about, I think I might have reactivated Epstein Barr virus. And the doctor says, well, you know, everybody has that. There's no point in me testing for it. But that's actually not true. Not everyone is activated for Epstein Barr virus. And there are some tests that you could look at to see if you've been reactivated. So and as you know, and this is to answer your first question, how do we address from our Training as naturopathic physicians. One of the things that we're looking at is I was always taught to treat the patient, not the lab. So I'm always listening to the patient's story to be able to see if it might be a reactivated virus. One of the things that I'm listening for in a story from a patient that might mean that a virus is reactivated. One of my patients came in and she had had mono when she was in college. Completely healed, did great. Mono is the same virus that causes Epstein Barr virus. And was doing well and then got in a motor vehicle accident, that motor vehicle accident. Ever since then, man, she just could not get her energy back up. She was so tired, and she just couldn't make things work. And she couldn't figure it out, and nobody could figure it out. She was put on antidepressants, and it wasn't working. And that's because the body, if you go under stress, that Epstein Barr virus just takes the opportunity to just flourish and come back. So not well after a stressful event. Divorce, you know, a pregnancy, motor vehicle accident. Classic time to begin to pay attention to, maybe it's a chronic virus. And then the last and definitely not the least because it interacts with all of these, is looking at.

What'S the impact on the limbic brain, on the emotional brain. This limbic brain is attached to the vagus nerve, which picks up information from your whole body. So I know you are so great in working with people with gut issues and chronic infections, vaginal infections, and that kind of thing. Literally, the vagus nerve can pick up the information from the gut. If you have dysbiosis or sibo and say, oh, man, things are not okay down here. Things are not okay down here. Take that message to the brain. And the brain starts saying, oh, we're not okay. We're not okay. We're not safe. We're not safe. Safe or not safe, if this latches on to other subconscious experiences we've had in this lifetime, from early childhood or generational trauma, it could really become activate, like, as a stressful event for the brain and therefore the body. Once the limbic brain perceives that it is not safe, it starts to begin to reorganize how it puts signals down through to the body. So it shifts how your nervous system works, how your immune system works. And we start getting this thing in the mitochondria called cell danger response, where the mitochondria basically kind of curl up and hide, and they go into this hybrid. It's literally hibernation mode. Mode like bears do in the winter time, where they start producing less energy. And so there's a whole lot of. These are the five root causes that I'm listening for and look for and that people can start looking for and listening for so that you can be empowered to heal from these complex chronic diseases that I know can feel overwhelming, but they don't need to be overwhelming.

Well, especially when. When we explain that it's possible for these things to be resolved. You know, I think that sometimes people find, like, they think, oh, there's nothing else I could do for my thyroid or my adrenals, or I've tried things that didn't work, or I, you know, or they've heard that there's nothing they can do about, you know, let's say, past trauma or ptsd. Because, again, the medical system or the mental health system has kind of left us with that sense of like, there's nothing you can do. But from a naturopathic perspective, it's like, we want to know the underlying cause because that makes us excited to know, hey, now I know where to focus my treatment to actually help you heal. Right?

Totally, Absolutely. Absolutely. And, yeah, I think if there's. One of the things I always want to stand on rooftops and just shout is that don't believe the myth that there's no cure. Just don't believe that myth. I hear that all the time in chat groups with these conditions that, oh, there's no cure, there's no promise, there's no hope. That's. I mean, I don't. I don't buy that. And that is not what I've experienced personally, and it's not what I've seen in the clinic. I've seen people be able to get their bodies to heal, as you and I know, as naturopaths. You know, again, in that original question, we know that there's a vital force in the body, and that body, that body understands what it is to be healthy and to be normal. It just needs information, Obstacles to cure removed and information put in so that it can refind its PowerPoint. Right.

Yeah. It's only its own innate ability to heal. It's just. Yeah. Finding that. And a lot of these, these five causes you're mentioning, I want to point out that some cases, it's all five. Right. It could be.

Absolutely, absolutely. You could have one, two, three, or all five of them. And. And I want to be realistic about how long it can take to heal from something like this. When I talk about people healing it can vary wildly, depending on what else you've already done and how many of these root causes you're addressing. Sometimes you can have four or five root causes, yet there's one that's so deep, and it's just the root of the root. You know, often if that's a limbic brain piece, then working on that can shift so many other things.

Yeah, it really can. And that from. From a naturopathic perspective, there are tests we can do that are considered. I would. I call them specialty tests that are sort of outside the standard blood work that can help us know what. What's underlying, you know. So maybe you want to mention that a little bit too, like how we can. When you work with an age of doctor, you can. You can actually get such more specific information about what's going on in your body, so you're not having to stay in this state of guessing.

Yeah, absolutely. I. There's a lot. There are a lot of conventional tests that I run that are just standard tests that you get from lab cool requests.

Yeah, the ones we can get covered from insurance and give us some good info. Yeah, yeah, they can.

And, but. And I'm sure you, I know you do the same thing there. You can have a, A normal test, a normal, A normal lab test come back, but it can still be. You can be high normal or low normal, and that can indicate that there's a functional level, there's a level of dysfunction in your body. Right. You may not be at an extreme disease state, but we can begin to see. We can look at your liver enzymes and go, well, yeah, you're still. You're still under 40, 45, so technically normal. You don't have crazy liver inflammation with liver enzymes in the hundreds. Yet when I see that it's up here in the 30s, along with a few other markers, that makes me think, you know, and you're also getting headaches and have PMS and skin issues. Kind of putting this picture together that, oh, maybe we want to pay attention to your liver. So I think there's some really basic labs that we can use that we can interpret if we're willing to think outside the box a bit and really think about what is this patient telling me and what are these labs telling me? And put the two together in terms of specialty labs, There are a few things that I do quite often. One is doing a salivary cortisol test, because I find that is such an easy test. It's inexpensive and it gives us so much information, and it can give a person really good feedback to do the hardest thing there is, which is to change your lifestyle. Right. You know, if you start realizing like, you know, maybe I do need to just, you know, go to bed a bit earlier or manage my blood sugar better so I'm not stressed. So stressed out.

And, and believe me, I, I love, I feel like, I mean, understanding what's happening with our cortisol is so important because of course it's our main stress hormone. So, and we all have some degree of stress, so it's very likely affected. But it's not gonna, that, that kind of information you're not gonna get in the standard blood work. So it's like you, you know, getting to the point of realizing like, hey, if, if I really wanna understand better what's happening in my body and how to support it, simply doing a salivary cortisol at different times a day, right. It's like so eye opening, like you're saying like, then we can go, oh wow, this is what my body's been trying to tell me.

Totally. It's so huge. I find that to be such a great, a great sort of initial assessment to do if somebody's dealing with low energy is to just do a four point cortisol salivary test. And it really does need to be salivary because the blood tests just don't mark cortisol in the same way you have. If people who have abnormal blood cortisols have extreme health issues compared to those who have salivary, abnormal salivary tests, they, you can. They're the people that feel terrible and are told their labs are all normal. So that may be you.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so helpful. Are you ready to discover your unique stress type? We're all affected by stress, but why fight it when you can master it? Take my free online stress type quiz today and conquer your burnout. We'll measure your energy, sleep, mood, focus and body to determine how your body is built to deal with stress. That we'll work together to take precise action to help you get out of stress mode and become resilient to it. It's time to master your health. Let's go.

The other lab test that I often work with people is when we're looking at molds. Looking for mycotoxin and mold exposures. Absolutely. That's a tricky subject and, but, and yet it can wreak havoc on your immune system and on your hormones. It can impact inflammation in the brain. And so I think doing testing for those are great. And again, that's not something you're going to find in a conventional practice at all.

And we have such, you know, in years past, those kind, there wasn't great testing even for mold toxins. But now, like, in the recent past, we have access to mold toxin testing that's so clear and so helpful. Like, it's so worth it to just know. Because otherwise, again, we're in constant guessing. Like, maybe I had mold exposure, maybe I didn't. And when you're in that guessing, then you're not getting anywhere. You're just spending more time not feeling good. So when you can invest in a test like that that says, and we can clearly see mold toxins now, you get to be proactive around that and actually start solving it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the challenging things for people who are dealing with fatigue is that, that it's hard to do extra things and.

Because you're tired.

Because you're tired. Right. And then people talk about, oh, I'm, you know, am I tired or am I depressed or am I just being lazy? There's sort of this self abuse that can kind of come up where it's like, oh, I'm so tired. If I just would get myself to the gym, maybe I'd feel better. If I stopped eating pizza, maybe I'd feel better. And I think that it's really important for people to understand that if you know your body better than anybody else, if you're tired, you're tired. And it's something to address, and it's important to take that little bit of energy that you have and apply that to figuring out what your next step is for healing, because there are answers out there for you.

That's such a good point. It's such a good point. Because it can be hard to prioritize when you feel like, how am I going to get through the day? Because I feel so yucky.

Yeah.

And yet, you know, sometimes just. Just, you know, like these tests we're describing, once you have it in front of you and you know how to do it, it actually doesn't take that much energy. And then. And then it gives. It gives us as practitioners such valuable information to be able to guide you better, you know, so you can be more efficient in your healing. So I'm so glad you're. You're mentioning that, Jenny. Yes, that's key.

Yeah. I find it very. I think some of the. It's very motivating. You know, once you actually have something in black and white to say that, oh, this is the thing. Sometimes I run lab Tests to confirm what I think is a diagnosis, but mostly so that the patient can see that there is something going on. I remember the first time I got my chronic viral lab test back. I was in medical school, and I just felt like going to, I went to my husband. I'm like, see, See? I mean, he believed me. It's not that he didn't believe me, but I just felt like there's finally something here.

Validation.

Yeah, some validation. And, and there's a little bump with that validation. And then again you get that bump and you can start going, okay, so now what is going to work with my body? And I, I, I just also want to say, because I know a lot, a lot of people come to see me. They've been sick for many years, sometimes decades, and they've tried many things that, as you said earlier, may or may not have worked. And I want to tell you, if you feel like you've tried things and you felt discouraged to not give up hope, to just continue to try, because everybody's body's different. Just because your friend Sally took this one thing and it made her feel amazing, your body responds differently. So it's really beginning to understand. How is it that your body works? What remedies work for you? One of the things I love about how you and I practice is that we have such a wide toolkit. I mean, we can, I mean, I've been doing this for 20 years, and we have energetic medicines. We can prescribe pharmaceuticals. I mean, there's this whole huge wide range of things, including doing mind, body work with people. So when I'm working with people, I'm always trying to figure out what works with you. I had one patient who only homeopathics worked for her, and pharmaceuticals like nutraceuticals and botanicals didn't work at all. And, you know, finding that thing so that, so that then that patient can then continue to be empowered and know forever that these are the remedies that they can start looking for. Whenever something happens in their body, they know it works for them.

Yeah, I love that too. You know, to be able to. The part of the healing journey is the, is the person getting to know their own body they've been living in all this time, but didn't know what it needed. And so as you figure out, oh, this is what helped. Yeah, I always love to say to patients, now remember that, because in the future you can come back to that same thing and just know this is what your body responds to. And it's true. As Naturopathic doctors, we have such a big toolbox. We, it allows for us to be able to match up for each individual what they need. And, and I think that's true for what you were going to be talking about as like the foundations of healing. Like even that can be individualized. But do you mind going into that a little bit of like where, where can people begin maybe where do they start? And, and how that has such a profound impact on healing as well?

Yeah. So I talk about the four pillars of good health and the four health foundations. And then during the pandemic after that I added a fifth. And so the pillars of health, and what I would say about these pillars of health is they really are the foundation for all good health. So no matter what you're doing, these will help whatever treatment you're doing. And often this is the treatment, often this is all you need to do is to work on these foundations. So what's good to. As I go through the list of the foundations, those of you that are listening can be thinking about which ones do you know that you have nailed? Like you're so got it so dialed in and where do you know that you have challenge? And it's good to look at both. And then the ones that you feel challenged in that can be, that's the place to pay attention and to address. And so the first one is digestion and detoxification. The other one is rhythm and sleep. The other one is movement and breath. And then the fourth one is mindset and spirit. Those are the four pillars of health that I have found have a huge impact. And again, I'm listening for which one of those may be out of balance for somebody as they're going through as, as I'm taking a history. And then the fifth one is connection. And during the pandemic a lot of us experienced a lot of isolation and realized the importance of connection, connection with others, connections with ourself, connection to whatever you call your higher self or spirit. All of those things have huge impact on our well being and permeate literally all the other health foundations.

Yeah, it's such a good point. I love that you added that connection into those foundations because it is that sometimes that almost imperceivable, you know, invisible thing that like you're saying it's present and permeating all the time anyway. But when we can, we can say, hey, how, how do I, how do I make sure that I have time in my day for all of these things? Right? A time of my day to connect with myself and, and others in the world around me. How do I have time in each day to connect, connect with the spirit or sense of spirit for each person and then into the sleep and the movement and that. Right, like, so is that how you think about it is like even in a daily basis, how do we allow these things or make, you know, prioritize these aspects of being human and healing?

I suppose this came out of working with patients for decades. And then also a lot of my patients who needed to go on disability, short term disability, to actually really heal. And I always said, so I'm using my license to get it so that you get to stay home and heal. There's no Oreos and Netflix on my watch unless it's prescribed. And we are creating a wellness plan for you. So after we'd done the paperwork, they came in for a full appointment and we drew out, we drew out a schedule for their week and we're like, okay, what are the pillars? And that's why I started using the word pillar. What are the pillars that we're going to put in here that we're building in for you? Some people were just in bed, so that's fine. We had them. Their movement was deep breathing or using their brain to imagine doing exercise. Some people were more active so they could do a yin yoga class online. But we're actually putting these into their week so that they were part of their healing plan. Food. They didn't have time to make delicious food when they were exhausted at work and, you know, crawling into work and crawling out and taking naps on the floor. Now they're home for six weeks. Okay, food. Do you need to bring in somebody to help you cook it? Do you know how to cook? What do you need? But let's get nutrition in there. Is your digestion working or not working? Okay, now you have time to pay attention to what's going on with your digestion. So that's where it came in. But to really answer your question, yeah. So every day, of course we want to have all of these pieces in. Some days are going to be better than others and some are going to be more in balance or out of balance in a day. But having them in your mind or on your fridge of this is what I'm focusing on can be really helpful. And for those people who are struggling with fatigue or any other kind of illness, literally discovering which one is most disrupted for you is going to be massive. And I would just focus on that one. So if your sleep is trash, then focus on your sleep. If you know, your digestion is, is, you know, you've probably got leaky gut and dysbiosis and all those. Get that, you know, that that's your number one focus. And I'm just focus there. First. We all know treat the gut. Treat the gut.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I, and I, I find that a lot of times when, when patients are really hitting that point of fatigue, but oftentimes it comes with anxiety, depression, overwhelm, digestive issues, you know, all of the things combined. And we feel like, where do I go from here? And we know, like, if we, if we just go into the emergency room, that that's not, they're not going to be able to help in that situation. That's not a broken bone or a need for a surgery. It's like, we need to get back home and practice implementing these, what I call, you know, self care, but these foundational self care activities that we don't learn very well in elementary school or childhood. Right. We have to learn it at whatever point we are. There's no judgment. It's like, okay, this is our time, our turn to, to learn how to take better care of ourselves so that we have what we need in order to function each day.

And I think that that's one of the gifts that can come out of having some kind of a health crisis or setback. I think there's always a gift in the challenges that we face in this life, and that can be one of them is really going, oh, I didn't realize that, you know, gluten was really impacting my brain that way until I got so sick. And when I took it out, I felt you don't realize those things. And then as you heal and you get back out to living your busy, crazy life, you bring in these things that you learned and then you're healthier. One of the things I always tell people who are really struggling with fatigue and, you know, it can be. Kind of feel like you're kind of left out of a lot of things because you don't have the energy to participate. And when I'm talking about the health foundations, I really like to instill in them. You, if you, as you dial in your health foundations and you really understand what they are and how to work them in your life and to understand when they're out of whack and when you need to dial them in more, you are literally setting yourself up to be like, what? High performers, athletes, professional athletes, and professional performers do. They have trainers that help them with Their movement and breath. They have trainers that help them with their mindset and spiritual. They have trained. They have coaches that help them, nutritionists that help them with their digestion and detoxification. You know, they have. This is what they do. This is how they are peak at what they do. So if you're really sick, you need to focus on this stuff so you can get better. The challenge is to stay with it while you're feeling normal. Right. And then. And if you do, you're gonna. It's gonna come Back to you 10,000 times in your aging. And also as you decide to push yourself to do amazing things out there in the world, which you can do once you energy back.

I love that. Absolutely. Yeah. Said look at ourselves as the marathon runner in our daily lives. Right. Like, how to take care of ourselves the way a marathon runner would, because we literally are running a marathon through our. Our busy lives. And no wonder, like, to have that compassion when we need a break, you know? Like.

Absolutely.

Right.

I know, right. I know. There was somebody. I haven't seen the study on this, but somebody who I respect told me that being an entrepreneur is the same energy output as being an NFL football player, quarterback, or something like that. And then I thought, gosh, if I'm an entrepreneur and I'm a mom at the same time with, you know, with a partner that also has a business, that's a lot.

Yeah.

And so. And yet, when you think about somebody who does a performance or has a big game, they have down days afterwards. And how often do we give ourselves a down day after we push? It's usually, okay, I got through that. What's the next thing on the next big day list to go through. And honestly think this is one of the patterns that can trigger a lot of the chronic fatigue and long Covid stuff that we're talking about.

Absolutely. It's these. Yeah. These. Expecting that we're supposed to be able to do all of this without a break. And I know one of my lessons in my healing process was the, you know, one day with a migraine. I had migraines for many years now I don't get them anymore. But one day with a migraine brain laying in bed, thinking to myself, oh, my gosh, is it just that I. My body needed a day off to lay in bed? I can just plan that and not have to be in pain.

Yeah. Yeah. We used to do wellness days for my son when I was in medical school. He was young, and sometimes he would get sick, and it was almost like he And I both needed a break and we needed time together and it was interesting. And so we had this thing with wellness days where he could call a wellness day day.

Yeah. How beautiful. You know, I think if we, the more we can normalize that, like, and that's. I'm so glad to have this conversation with you to just say, hey, it's normal as humans that we, that we are going to need to take care of ourselves, feed ourselves, rest, take breaks and, and that if we're not getting that, we probably are going to feel tired and, and that it's not about being hard on yourself, it's about the energy then noticing and giving yourself what you needed all along anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really true. And I think that's true. And then I also think that there are sometimes when we are just hit really hard with, with an infection or with a toxic exposure or with a really deep stress, that this does throw the body off into this dysregulated state. And that can feel really complex and overwhelming. And again, that is just another time to just, just reach out and, you know, figure out what is the next step for you so that you can do your healing. I know that all the times that I was, you know, I was in bed with IVs in my arm, I was so sick with chronic fatigue at one point. And it's just really. It can feel really scary. And it is. You know, when I came out of that, it was like the whole world was in Prisma color. Like, it had been black and white and now it was all in color. It was just amazing to be able to be alive again.

It's beautiful.

Yeah.

And to. I love that you pointed that out because I think that sometimes people think, they judge themselves and think, is this just all in my head? Is this all just something I'm making up? But it's, it's true that there can actually be physical toxins or an infection that's not resolving that's. Or a mitochondrial issue that's causing you. Or hormone issue that's causing you to feel tired. And it's not like, oh, it's not just all in your head. We need to, we need to look at the whole picture and help your body resolve what's not resolved and, and then give you, your body that's in your mind, that healing space to recover that is possible.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And speaking of the brain and the mind, there really is a lot that is happening in the brain and there are so many connections now where we're Seeing that the brain fog that people can get with the fatigue and some of the mood stuff, the anxiety and the depression and that, that is, that's a similar mechanism in the brain. It's inflammation in the brain. And, and that really does need to be taken care of because it, the progressive state is then to lead to one of the dementias. And so that is, you know, that those are early signs that we really want to pay attention to this and get it under control.

Yeah, yeah. I love talking about neuroinflammation and to recognize that it, it's like we usually think of inflammation on our skin when it's red and swollen, but it's like inflammation in our nervous system can look like fatigue and brain fog.

Exactly. That's, that's the brain saying, ouch. You know, I'm feeling, I'm. And the brain inflammation, when the brain is inflamed, it has a different pattern than the rest of the body. The rest of. If you sprain your ankle, there's sort of that 72 hour peak of inflammation and then it goes down. Unless you re injure it. The brain isn't so good at turning that inflammatory process off. It can stay burning and smoldering and prime those glial cells. And so it's really easy to get to just have it become a chronic problem.

Wow. Well, I'm so glad that you've been really finding ways to help people because like you said, when you're tired, it's hard to even know how to get on the computer and hit the button to begin. So I know on your website I saw that you make it really easy to just say like, let's start with, with you. You developed a couple different assessments to start people helping people realize like, what kind of tire do you have? Right. And to start to just explore these concepts so you don't. A person, a listening nerd, doesn't have to figure it all out on their own. They can just start with what kind of tire do I have? And then Dr. Jenny's going to guide me from there.

Yeah, I created a quiz and the quiz is really based on the algorithm I was using in the clinic and what I have been seeing with inpatient over the last two decades. And so it's, it's not a official diagnosis, of course, but it is. Does give you an indication of what is your primary root cause that you might want to start looking at.

I love that. Yeah, it's, it's a beginning steps and then from there you can go, okay, this is now Let me see where I can take the next steps. Exactly, exactly.

And then it becomes a journey that can be fun. You know, honestly, it's like, oh, wow, this. Feeling better?

Yeah. What can I discover next is another way to look at it is. Yeah. How to. When we look at it as like, hey, this is a discovery process of understanding what my body's been trying to tell me and give it what it needs.

Totally. Yeah. One of my patients is a professional that was a professional ballet dancer, and she. Every time she would have a. She had a couple crashes and she. It was always a sign that her. She was supposed to be doing something else. And, you know, it was just the way her body was talking to her. Interesting.

So when people want to reach out and learn more about you and what you do and what you offer, is the website the best place or what do you suggest?

The website's the best place? Yeah, check out the website. There's the quiz on there. I have online programs if you are sort of a DIY kind of person. I have an amazing group program if that interests you, if you like working with a community of people. And I also do telemedicine all around the world at the state at this point to take people on for health consultations. So if you're struggling and looking for some guidance, feel free to reach out. You can apply to book for a free consultation on the website.

Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure to put your website in the. In the notes for this episode. And thank you again so much for joining me to have this conversation and to really share with people that there's hope for recovering your energy and your house.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's just a joy to talk with you and thank you for all the amazing work you're doing out there. It's just great that you're getting the message out so well about all the different ways that we can heal. Thank you.

You're welcome. And thank you all for listening and joining us here at How Humans Heal. Please make sure to leave me a comment or review. I always love to hear what you'd love for me to cover next and join me by subscribing to the podcast wherever you happen to be listening or watching. So thanks again and I'll see you in the next episode of How Humans Heal.

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