#24 Intermittent Fasting is Really Mindful Eating (and Not Eating) – with Cynthia Thurlow

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Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome. I'm so glad that you're joining us today. I'm going to be talking with Cynthia, who is a nurse practitioner and an expert in nutrition and intermittent fasting.

So welcome.

Thank you for being with me today, Cynthia.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's really been something I've been looking forward to.

Yeah, I mean, you've really, I think, put a lot of focus in this area of intermittent fasting. So it's just such an honor, I'm sure, for the listeners to get a bit of your expertise. But tell us first, how did you.

Even get to this?

How did you get to this interest after all these. Because you've been practicing for over 20 years, right?

A long time.

I think the honest answer is I just got tired of writing prescriptions. And it's not to suggest that there's not value in prescription, prescription medication. I want to be very clear about that and very supportive of my traditionally western medicine trained peers. But I got to a point that it was very evident that lifestyle modifications really needed to be truly frontline, not just piecemealing, saying that this is what we needed to be doing, but really focusing on food first and dialing in on stress and talking to patients about sleep quality. And let's be honest, a lot of patients have been conditioned to believe that they want to ask for a pill first. And so, you know, through no fault of their own, because that's what we've marketed to them. That's what big pharma marketed. Exactly, Exactly. So after 16 years as a nurse practitioner working in cardiology, which I love cardiology, love everything about the heart and management of acutely sick patients, I just woke up one morning and I said, I'm done. I'm just so done. I need to do something different. And took a leap of faith and jumped into the entrepreneurial space. But I think what drew me to intermittent fasting, which preceded that leaving of traditional Western medicine was just out of curiosity. I had a couple friends talking about it. And so my typical skepticism, I read a book, Jason Fung's book. And kind of dove into intermittent fasting just for myself, really. Just I was like, I'm a middle aged woman, I'm curious what benefits I could, I could really garner from this. And so I never knew that this is what I would largely be known for. But it's something that I embrace so wholeheartedly and talk to both men and women about how important it is to eat less often and to prioritize the quality of food that we eat and how critically important that is. Because if you really look at our population and you and I have seen over the last 20 plus years, we're seeing these escalating rates of obesity and diabetes and metabolic disease.

And you must have seen in your clinic.

Yes, all the time. And it was sad because sometimes, you know, when I was younger, in my 20s, and I was a nurse practitioner, and I would say to my patients, how can I motivate you to take better care of yourself? And then there was the shift I started becoming older than some of my patients who had vascular disease and diabetes and things like that. And it was again the same conversation, how can I motivate you to take better care of yourself? And so I started to realize that I looked a whole lot healthier than many of the people I was taking care of. And that was really what solidified for me why I was going to need to take this pivot that I could impact more people working in a different capacity, still being a healthcare provider, still being somebody who's kind of championing health, but doing it on a different platform. And so I always like to say health issues. Right, Exactly. I said, you know, doesn't it, I mean, really, that's how I was trained. I'm a primary, I was trained as a primary care np, but never worked as one. I always was in the hospital. And so we really do a poor job as a nation on prevention. You know, we wait until someone gets disease and then we just throw a bunch of pills and, you know, send people on their merry way. And I just, I just feel so strongly that there's a better way to be able to, you know, look at our nation and, you know, the individuals, not only the children, but the adults, and.

You know, improve longevity not with pills, but with changes in nutrition and lifestyle modifications, which really should be what we focus on first.

Well, and I like how you were saying that to think of it first as a way to like prioritize your food. It sounds like you're saying, hey, let's put food in a different category instead of just something we Race through and pick whatever's nearby.

Let's be intentional about it.

Let's be intentional about the types of food and the timing of the food. And I think that's another way to look at intermittent fasting because that's become the term for it. But it's really about to me, I kind of look at it as it's about bringing more awareness to the timing of your meals and the timing of when you're not eating too.

Right.

Talk us through intermittent fasting and how do you define it?

How do you talk about it?

Well, I like to explain that we spend more time not eating than eating. And for many of us, I think the average American is eating anywhere from 16 to 17 times a day between sugar, sweetened beverages, fatty coffees and food. And so our bodies really thrive best when we eat less frequently because the more insulin that's secreted in response to food that we consume, the more likely we are to put ourselves in a state where we're going to store fat as opposed to burning fat. And we've gotten with the snacks, the mini meals, the eating frequently, the stoking, the metabolism, the breakfast is the most important meal of the day mindset has really derailed us from our ancestral health patterns where people would eat one or two times a day and they had to forage food, they had to go out and kill their food. And nowadays we just have this hyper palatable, hyper accessible processed food culture. And that's what our taste buds have largely gotten accustomed to. So when I think about intermittent fasting, it's a strategy you mentioned mindful eating, which is a huge component of that being able to differentiate between true intrinsic hunger versus I'm bored. And trust me, we all are there many of us being in our homes for the past five months, there's probably been a lot of mindless eating out of boredom. But you know, traditionally really looking at intermittent fasting as periods of time throughout the day where you're really not eating. And it could be as easy as skipping your breakfast. And maybe you're eating within a six to eight hour feeding window. And when the feeding window is closed, I know sometimes that term upsets people. They're like, I'm not an animal. And I'm like, well there's to make it very clear you're either fasted or you're fed. That's the only shoe stay that your body exists in. But the more time we spend in a fasted state, we know digestion is better. We know once we've been doing intermittent Fasting for a period of time. We have all these benefits beyond fat loss. I think people come to intermittent fasting with a desire to lose weight, which, I mean, hey, I get that. But they'll stay for all the other health benefits. And that's really. I know that you wanted to touch on those.

Yeah, let's list them for people. Like, what if you're, if you're listening and you're considering, hey, should I try intermittent fasting or kind of narrowing the window of time that you consume food during the day? What would be the reasons to consider that? Both sort of short term and long term reasons?

Well, I think everyone comes to it out of curiosity about weight loss, but I always say it's so much more than that. So mental clarity, because your insulin levels are lower, which is ideally where we want them to be, more energy. So mental clarity and energy are huge for many people. They have better digestive rest because their body isn't working to digest food 24, 7. So they may have less bloating, they may not be as constipated. For many people, we know that it improves our biophysical markers. So blood pressure, cholesterol panel, blood glucose, and it lowers insulin. As I already mentioned, when we think about our risk of developing things like type 3 diabetes, which is Alzheimer's, as well as other neurologic disorders. And there's this really cool term called autophagy, which is a fancy way of saying that our body is getting rid of diseased and disordered cells and this only happens when we're not eating.

And with intermittent fasting, there's a lot of gray area. But some people will say you have to be fasting for at least 16 to 18 hours for that autophagy to kick in. But I always remind people that, you know, when you're doing even 12 or 14 hours, there are still physiologic benefits that happen. It just, if you really want to start looking at the research, it's like human growth hormone starts to really spike. Human growth hormone is something that starts to be depleted as we're getting older. And I like to remind people that we really want to capitalize on that. We get some growth hormone secretion at night when we're getting high quality sleep. But we know that also within a fasted state, we will get spikes in human growth hormone, which can help us build lean muscle, help with our basal metabolic rate. So those are some of the highlights. But I think that people come to intermittent fasting because they're curious about weight loss, but they always Stay for all the other benefits. They just feel better. They, you know, their clothes fit better, they have more energy, they can chase after their kids or their grandchildren or. I love that. I got a message on social media over the weekend and it was from a woman who said, I have not been this, I have not been this weight since I was in 1960s. And so clearly this is someone who's probably in their 70s. But she's delighted that just with not eating all day long she's able to lose weight and feels very energetic. So that's a huge plus.

Well, and I just want to also for anyone who's kind of new to this and the way I think about it is we have a 24 hour day and correct me here, Cynthia, but say we have a 24 hour day and we're sleeping hopefully for probably eight hours of that. So right there, if you're asleep, you're not eating, so you've already got eight hours of fast already done. Now I think a lot of times I know that people either are staying up late, so maybe eating right before they go to bed, or a lot of times I hear people wake up in the middle of the night and feel like they need to eat something then. So these are common places where you're not even getting your eight hour fast because you're waking up and consuming food even during that sleep, eight hour fast. So if you, if you're wanting to start trying intermittent fasting, is that a good way to think about it, is just add on to your sleep time, Kind of say, well, I'm going to take a couple hours, I'm going to stop eating a couple hours before bed. So now it's like 10 hours of a fast and then I'm going to wait to eat my breakfast for two hours. So now it's a 12 hour fast. So just by giving yourself a two hour window before bed and a two hour window when you wake up, you're already getting a 12 hour fast.

Really?

Correct. And I tell people most people are fasting 12 hours a day at least. And so I remind them that it doesn't have to be this scary concept. And if you realize this is really the way that our bodies are designed to thrive as opposed to just survive. But I like that you are reinforcing the fact if we're really looking at our circadian rhythm patterns in our bodies, we don't want to eat three hours before bed. That's really important. So I always say like the kitchen gets shut down. I have teenage boys, so the Kitchen's always open for them. But my husband and I mean the kitchen is shut down after dinner. We're done. There's no eating after dinner because our bodies actually do best when we're not eating within a three hour window before bed. And then if you do that, and like you mentioned two hours in the morning, I mean that's huge. I tell people like, eat your dinner at 6 and don't eat again until 8am And I'm like, you've already done 14 hours. And I think I always say, you know, celebrate those small wins. So if you're already doing 14 hours, do 14 and a half. You're doing 14 and a half, do 15. I do occasionally get a unicorn. Someone that goes from being able to do a 12 hour fast to going to 18 without any issues. But that's unusual. I think most people need to do it slowly. There are absolutely all sorts of tricks and strategies that can make the fasted state a little bit more tolerable. And I remind people that hunger, much like many things in our bodies, is cyclical. So you might get a hunger rumble, but then you might not get another one for an hour and a half. And I just remind people it's okay to get hungry. You are not going to die, you are not going to starve. It's actually good to get connected to what true intrinsic hunger is because so many of us are so disconnected from our bodies, we don't pay attention. We don't, we're not in the parasympathetic rest and repose state even when we eat, let alone being connected to our bodies when we're not eating. So I agree with you that you know, reminding people that when you're sleeping that is part of your fasting window.

Yeah, well that's very helpful and I.

Like that you're emphasizing, working into it. You know, it's not that you're going to start off with a 16 hour fast. You know, like you said, some people, that's okay, maybe their body was already primed in that direction, the unicorns. But if you're just starting, what are some of the things to watch out for? I mean, I'm thinking that there are, I know there's some people that are more likely to have low blood sugar, for example, or feel dizzy or what are some of the things to watch for that might tell you you started a little too fast and maybe you need to go a little more slowly with your, with your fasting.

That's a great question. And I'm in the midst of teaching a masterclass about intermittent fasting. So let me assure you, I see some of these almost every day. I would say the average American consumes anywhere from 2 to 300 grams of carbs a day. So if someone is going from a standard American diet and wants to intermittent fast, you don't want to go from that amount of carbohydrates to 50 because you could end up developing something called keto flu, which is just a fancy way of saying your body is kind of going into shock because you're depleting these glycogen stores. And as you're depleting glycogen, there's water loss. And with water loss goes sodium. And so the loss of electrolytes can precipitate dizziness, nausea, just feeling hangry and crummy. So I remind people when they're first starting out, if you do consume a high carbohydrate diet or a lot of processed foods, you don't want to go from zero to 60. You want to pull snacks out first and then be mindful of the quality of carbohydrates you're consuming and then start refocusing your efforts on a protein heavy diet, unless you've been told otherwise, and ensuring that you're getting in some healthy fats and getting your carbohydrates from green leafy vegetables and lettuces and things like that, as opposed to starchy vegetables. So that's number one. Number two is anytime you're fasting, you need to replace the electrolytes you're urinating out. And so it could be, it could start as easy as Himalayan sea salt, but there are a lot of products that are out there. Actually, I just came out with a product called Dynamic Electrolytes, which I'm excited about because people can consume it during their fasting or feeding window. But there are other brands like Element, that's spelled lmnt, that's another good quality product, or Jigsaw, those are a couple other brands that I think are important to consume. So you want to make sure you're doing electrolytes. And here's the thing, if you're not already sleeping well, and by well, I mean seven, eight hours a night of high quality sleep. Don't start fasting. Get the sleep dialed in first. I can't tell you how many middle aged women, perimenopause and menopausal women, you know, they look at intermittent fasting is like the panacea that's going to fix their fat gain, that they've you know.

Accumulated any quick fix to get the weight off, right?

And when they tell me they aren't sleeping, I'm like, if I can't get you to sleep through the night, I can't get you to lose weight. And so that's just my standard kind of refrain. So the sleep piece is critical and, you know, just giving yourself some grace. You know, some people will do really well one day and then the next day they struggle. And I'm like, listen, there's no award or badge of honor given out if you tough it out and you're miserable, right? And so giving yourself some grace and just acknowledging that this is something new. And the average person needs a solid four to six weeks. I mean, it's unusual for someone to be fat adapted using fat as the primary fuel source as opposed to sugar. It is unusual for that process to happen within two weeks. In my masterclass, I keep reminding people of that because they get, you know, the unicorn, right? And unfortunately, we've done that to patients, we've done that to, you know, westernized societies that everything you have to have a get, get quick fix scheme. It's a potion, it's a powder, it's, you know, some type of potion that is going to alleviate all of the ills of the world. And I have to remind people, I'm like, you didn't gain £50 overnight. You're not going to lose it overnight, nor is that sustainable. So, you know, giving yourself grace piece I think is really, really important.

Well, I love that you're. It's really like creating a metabolic reset, but knowing that that's a process. And I talk a lot about the messengers in our body, the hormones, the neurotransmitters, even our digestion is signaling and the microbiome. Think about it like our body is used to the current situation, you know, the current way we're feeding ourselves. And it takes time for all those messengers to reset. It's going to take time to reset hormones, you mentioned insulin. There's also cortisol and other hormones. Even, even there's an effect on thyroid and all the hormones in the body. And so we just think of it as, okay, this is a reset for all these messengers. And it takes time. You're going to, we're essentially, you're changing the signals, you're changing. You're saying to your body, hey, we're going to eat different time frames, we're going to sleep at different time frames. We're going to. And it takes your body time to adapt to that.

But what I also hear you saying.

Is that kind of preparation before you even start expecting or wanting to go into intermittent fasting is make sure you're getting good sleep, a good eight hours of sound sleep. And I also hear you saying, like, it helps to start maybe shifting your diet already just toward less carbs, more.

Protein, and being more mindful other food.

Choices before you even start narrowing your window of eating. Does that all sound correct?

It does. And I think that's really critical because inevitably we'll get someone that, you know, they're, they're a sugar burner, they eat every hour or two, they get hangry, they're really struggling to lose weight. And I have to remind them. I'm like, we've got to figure. You need, we need to figure out together how best to support your body so that your body will, will be burning protein and fats as opposed to this higher carbohydrate diet where you're just not. It's like giving, putting kindling on a big fire. It's going to burn out really F And unfortunately with our very carb centric culture. And let me be clear, I'm not carb phobic. I am low carb. But that's because that's where my body exists the best. But when I start to remind people and explain to them that most of us don't eat enough protein, and especially with age, protein is absolutely critical for helping to ward off sarcopenia, muscle loss with age. As long with strength training, intermittent fasting can all play a role in ensuring that we stay more metabolically flexible. That's ideally what we want. We want those hormones to be well balanced. I get a tremendous amount of questions about people that have ongoing thyroid issues. And yes, you can have thyroid problems as long as they're stable and you can do intermittent fasting, we know that it can actually beneficially support the mitochondria, which are the powerhouses of the cell. And so I remind people, I'm like, I am hypothyroid. I am not Hashimoto's. I don't have autoimmun hypothyroidism. But I do take medication every day and I've been able to do intermittent fasting for the last several years. And I just like to remind people, provided that your thyroid situation is stable, you're feeling good, you know, your healthcare provider is monitoring your thyroid function and it's optimal, then adding in a stressor because that's one of the things we were talking about before we jumped on Intermittent fasting is a hormetic stressor. It is potentially a beneficial stressor for the body. But too much of any one thing, too little sleep, too much exercise, too restrictive of a diet, too much fasting can be a negative stressor. And so it's a very fine balance. And that's why I think I'm so excited that you wanted to talk to me about this today, because I feel that it's another tool in the toolbox, that intermittent fasting, along with a lot of these other beneficial stressors, is something that our bodies really need. Quite honestly, we've gotten lazy. Like, as a culture, we're sedentary. We eat, you know, highly processed foods and don't exercise enough, we don't sleep enough. We're disconnected from people, you know, even the people that we care about. So really good to be reconnected to our bodies and paying a little bit more attention than we have been when we're on autopilot.

I see your dog, my cat is also visiting us there. Yes, I want to participate.

Yes. I've got two dogs. And this is Baxter. He's one of our doodles. And he tends to join me. Sometimes he's sitting in the chair behind me. And people crack up because they're like, I can see your dog.

I know, it's great. They love all this. And I'm glad you're bringing up the fact that, like you said, we're kind of. We have too much of the stressors that are, you know, that we could eliminate potentially or that are not so good for our health. And we have not enough of the stressors that would actually be good for our health. And just that concept that our bodies do need some stress. You know, we are built to respond to stress. We are that and our bodies are, you know, used to that. So it's never about trying to eliminate all stress, but it is about trying to find that balance. Right. And I think that's what you're saying is even with intermittent fasting, you have to really learn what amount of fasting is a good stress for your body and not too much of a stress for your body.

Well, and it's interesting because there's, you know, once I always say it's like putting training wheels on when you first start doing intermittent fasting, it's finding a regular rhythm, you get the basics down, and then you can take the training wheels off and do more advanced strategies. But someone asked me their day, well, how many times have you done a three or five day fast? And I said, well, you always have to look at your goals. And I said, I'm just at a point in my life where I don't need to do three and five day fasts. My sleep quality is really important at this stage of life. And so I'd rather do a 24 hour fast and know I can sleep that night than do a three day fast. And no, I'm not going to sleep at least two of those nights. And so I think you have to kind of reflect back on, you know, why are you doing this? What are your goals? I think that's really, really critical. And who cares if your best friend, your husband, your significant other is doing something completely different? Stay in your lane. Figure out what works for you and your body and embrace it. I think that's completely fine.

And we mentioned some things that people might consider as almost either contraindications or things you need to address first. But is there anything else that you would say? Hey, if this is the situation, you should really address that first. I mean, you mentioned sleep issues.

Sleep is absolutely one. I would say if you have reactive hypoglycemia. So if you have problems with low blood sugar or you're diabetic and you're not aware of when your blood sugar is low, that is absolutely the type of person who either has to work with a healthcare provider who's familiarized with intermittent fasting and can strategize, or you may want to get that taken care of first before you are trying to attempt this strategy. I always say those with a history of disordered eating, there's always exceptions. You know, whether it's bulimia, anorexia or binge eating. I find that a lot of fit pros that I see on social media are hiding their anorexia in intermittent fasting or orthorexia. So you have to be really careful. Sometimes people try to hide it amongst the intermittent fasting, because intermittent fasting, it's acceptable somewhat nowadays for people to fast. And so if someone says, oh, I'm fasting, people go, okay, well you know, you're not restricting or purposefully restricting. I would say for anyone who's got chronic health issues, like if someone has vascular disease, you know, renal disease, liver disease, have a conversation with your primary care provider or your specialist. I think it's important to at least bring them into the conversation. Obviously I have many, many diabetics that have been able to get off medication, but that's always in the context. I always say I play well with others. I'm always ensuring that they are following up with their primary care provider, whomever is managing their diabetes or their metabolic syndrome, so that we're staying on top of blood pressure and biophysical markers and things like that to make sure they don't need adjustments. And then lastly, it's the extremes of age. So I don't like intermittent fasting as a strategy for children, certainly not for anyone who's still growing. So if you stop growing it, I stopped growing height wise at 12 and I wouldn't suggest it for the average teenage young woman or young male, not until they're probably college age, if at all. And certainly people that are my parents age like the average 70 plus year old person probably. It's not ideal, although I find that a lot of my older patients, naturally we eat less food as they're getting older. They just don't have the same appetite. So I think it's always in the context of there's always an outlier. I got a bunch of angry messages after my TED talk from people in their 70s who were doing intermittent fasting, but they were really outliers. And so I was like, good for you, so glad you gave me an example. But I had to have some contraindications or some people. I would be very careful about doing that. And obviously if you're underweight, not a good strategy. If you've recently been in the hospital, not a good strategy. Did I fast last year after being in the hospital for 13 days? No, not for several months because I lost so much weight. So there's a bit of common sense. There's definitely a bit of common sense that needs to come into play.

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Yeah.

And I, and I.

In some ways, there's the common sense and then there's the piece of it that allows you to be your own health advocate and feel empowered about your health through the process. And you mentioned your master class. So if someone's really inspired and yet wanting some more help, is that, is that a good way? Is that a good place for them to come for that?

It is. And so we do it quarterly, and up until this point, it's been a three week, 21 days. We're probably going to bump it to 28 when we teach it again in the fall. Really? Because one week will be a clean up your diet week before we dive in. It's interesting. This group, more so than any other that we've done, has had more issues with keto flu, I think, because a lot of these people went from a standard American diet to try to do low carb and it was just too quick of a transition. So usually a 21 to 28 day program that, you know, we're in a. We will be in an app in about two to four weeks, which is really exciting. So we'll be off of Facebook, which is really exciting. Yeah. And so it's a great way to be in a very supportive, accountable group. Learn the basics, I would say, like, get those training wheels on or for those that are more advanced, you know, providing some advanced strategies that they can utilize around their cycles or if they're no longer getting their periods. For women in particular, giving them strategies that'll help them succeed.

Awesome. That's so, so great. And I was going to say I was trying to think of some of the challenges. When I've worked with patients who were doing intermittent fasting, some of the challenges that I've come across, one I would say is most common, is when a person is maybe consuming too much food at once. You know, so say they've been fasting for 14 hours or so, and then they go to eat and then they have a large quantity of food that.

They'Re maybe not going to digest well.

So then they end up with digestive symptoms.

What I tend to say to them is, just learn from that and go, okay, let's decrease the size of the meal then. Because it really is so individualized. I mean, we talked about how blood sugar levels are individualized. I mean, we know so much of our body's signaling is individualized. So if you notice that what you're consuming is causing you to feel bloated and can't digest the food, Then we need to adjust the quantity at that sitting. But I'm curious how you handle that situation and what you would say.

I would say two things. If someone's overeating when they break their fast, they need to not fast as long. It could be that they're just not in a position to fast that long and that's why they're overeating, because they've just waited too long. It's usually what I see is someone who's pushing to 18 hours and then they eat everything and then they're not hungry for a second meal. So that could be one reason. Number two is they just ate too much food or they get sleepy after a meal. And so that definitely speaks to blood sugar dysregulation. And so I would agree with you, maybe perhaps breaking their fast with some bone broth or maybe some fermented vegetables, something lighter, maybe fish or chicken or poultry, a lighter protein, that's usually where we'll start. And I find if they don't fast quite as long the next time and they break their fast with a smaller meal, lighter meal, that usually will fix itself. That's a very common thing. If someone suddenly starts not sleeping through the night and it's a consistent issue, that's something we have to kind of revisit. You know, then you start questioning, is someone, is someone not fat adapted, meaning that they're not using ketones for their primary fuel source, they're still, you know, typing into, kind of tapping into glycogen stores and they're just not fortified enough. Is it a macros thing? Are they not eating enough food during their feeding window? And I find that can be problematic. Do people have to kind of adjust their macros at night so that maybe they're getting a little bit of sweet potato or some root vegetables, not copious amounts, but small amount to help them sleep for the night? I would say the other thing that I find is sometimes people really, you know, they've gotten in this mindset that when they exercise they have to eat immediately before and immediately after eating or excuse me, after exercising. And so trying to retrain people that you can indeed work out fasted, maybe that's not the way you start off, but kind of augmenting people's workout schedules so they can get through a workout pretty efficiently. And I just tell people, I'm like, you have to remain open minded. That's half the battle. Because we've been conditioned that you need that protein shake before and after exercise or you need that piece of chicken And I remind people our bodies don't keep track, meaning usually within the 24 hour period. So maybe you don't eat immediately after exercise, but maybe you're breaking your fast three hours later and you're getting in a 50 gram protein meal with some healthy fats and some low glycemic carbs. And that's perfect.

40 grams of protein powder in between this workout session, which I think really does people a disservice. I know that I actually prefer eating. I prefer working out, fasted. I don't like being full when I'm working out. I just don't feel good. My body's focused on digesting food and not sending blood to my extremities so that I can move, lift and do things like that. Those are the probably most common things. And then lastly, there are people who expect instantaneous results. I would say like a. Maybe it's a 60, 40 split. Men seem to lose weight pretty quickly with intermittent fasting. If they're really working on the diet piece too. Some women do, but some women actually will take them a little longer. Like if you look at studies that have been done, when you're looking at randomized studies with men and women, men will lose weight up front a little more quickly, but over the course of six to eight weeks, they'll both lose the same amount.

I see, it's just a different pattern.

Yes.

So what I always remind people is our hormones are complicated. Until we go through menopause, we've got cycling hormones. And so there's so many factors that can impact how well we are not losing weight. Women are the ones that get really frustrated and they want to force the issue. They want to force an outcome which we know is never a good thing. So I just have to trust the process. Slow and steady. I mean, these are like constant things I'm saying in my groups that, you know, you have to give yourself a break. Like trying to force an outcome is never a good thing. It's not healthy for you, emotionally or otherwise.

So try not to like make your goal too, you know, like more like make your goal to improve your diet and improve your health and connect with your body and learn your body signals and focus on those goals and know that, yes, in the process, over several weeks or a couple months, you may then shift your weight, but the weight's changing because your metabolism is improving, correct?

Absolutely. But those are the most common problems. And like troubleshooting things that come up.

Do you use any, I'm trying to think, any testing that you like, do you test for ketones? Are you testing anything that helps guide people along the way?

It's interesting because I definitely have peers that do a lot of testing. I mean, sometimes we'll use glucometers. We talk about ketone strips. But I think people get very fixated on the testing piece, and I think they lose sight of what we're doing. I mean, I have a monthly group called if 30, and our September challenge is going to be either to use a continuous glucose monitor or use a glucometer, because I think it's a curiosity thing. I think most of us know when our blood sugar is off, but when you have a cgm, you can literally monitor it throughout the day. So it's going to be the challenge for the month. Now, I think, unfortunately, people get fixated on testing, and then they are not paying attention to their. Their cues. So I like people. I like people to pay attention to those cues first, and then if we need to add in testing. Yes, But I would say that's controversial. I would say half my peers that are intermittent fasting aficionados are protesting. Other ones, like myself, I'm like, I want you to get the training wheels. Get your training wheels on. Make sure we got the basics down before we start chasing numbers. Because I've had people in tears because their keto meter doesn't mean that they're. You know, they've been doing intermittent fasting for a while, and their keto meter keeps telling them that they're not. They're not in ketosis, and then their whole day is ruined. So I always like to stress you.

Just stressing yourself out about trying to unstress.

So I remind them, I'm like, okay, so what happens when we have the stress response? We're going to spike cortisol. We're going to bump up our blood glucose. I mean, there's this whole cascade of hormonal impact that occurs. So I just say, give yourself some grace with my more advanced people. Sometimes they like to monitor that information, and that's fine. I have no problems with that. Now, I just for.

The idea is, instead of relying on this external source of information, which we tend to do, right, we tend to kind of focus on what's the weight on the scale or what's the number on the ketone test. And instead you're saying, okay, we might use those as tools once we've really gotten ourselves confident with the process. But more important is to really start to use your internal cues to help guide you. And I totally I agree with you because it's, I think that's what's going to help you with your health long term. Because then you're not relying constantly on some external thing. You can actually feel it and learn your own body signals and then maybe you use the testing to confirm that or validate it or fine tune.

Yep. No, I agree and I think that's really important. You know, if there's no bigger message from this podcast with you is that we've gotten disconnected from our bodies, it's time to get reconnected to our bodies. This is not woo woo.

This is actually really critically important that we are cognizant of how we feel when we eat, we're cognizant of how we feel when we fast, and we're cognizant of how we feel just with our sleep quality and our stress management. I mean, there are all sorts of things that I personally do when I've got more stress on board than usual. And my family thinks it's funny, but I'm like, listen, we know as we get older that the kind of stress that we can manage pretty readily in our teens, twenties, and thirties shifts enormously in our forties and beyond. So really critical that we're taking care of ourselves and listening to what our body needs us to be doing.

Well, and I do a lot of work measuring cortisol levels and adrenaline levels and I find that when I'm working with patients who are intermittent fasting, that can also can help us know, like, again, I like how you're saying, hey, get to know what your body needs and your best schedule for intermittent fasting. But then especially when you've been under more stress, let's. Or if you feel like maybe the intermittent fasting is, you know, you feel like something's a little too far one way or the other, then maybe checking the cortisol and adrenaline to see if the body's getting into much of a stress mode, then you, then we can address it, right? We can do something about it.

Yeah, well, and I think, you know, when people hear those, you know, those, the names of those hormones or talking about noradrenaline or adrenaline, just explaining to people that most, if not all of us are sympathetic, dominant. Meaning instead of being in our parasympathetic, which is the rest and repose, digest, have sex kind of brain mindset, we're in this stressed out and being chased by a saber tooth tiger. And our bodies don't differentiate between being chased by a rabid animal as they do with dealing with an irritating co worker or traffic or just everyday stress. And so it's really important that we are cognizant of how we feel when we're in that sympathetic dominant state. And we do lots of things. That's why I always tell people, as non sexy as it is, I've got a whole sleep hygiene thing. I talk very openly about gratitude, journaling or expression, grounding work, getting out in nature in the morning and even doing meditation because these are all things that are scientifically proven to be beneficial and for the most part don't cost anything. But we don't take the time, we don't prioritize the time to invest in our health and sometimes not until we get sick. And so I love that you incorporate testing. I definitely do work with the Dutch, which is dried urine and saliva. For anyone that's not familiarized with it can be hugely insightful. And I know when I'm working with a patient I'm explaining to them your stress response is your stress is so high that it's impacting dhea, which is impacting testosterone, which exposure explains why your libido is in the toilet. And so explaining the bits and pieces of all those components about how our body prioritizes, our body will prioritize being able to run away from a predator more so than they will to digest food. And so if you're not relaxed, this is just one example, if you're not relaxed when you're eating, literally if you're not in the right mindset, your body's not going to optimize digestion. And I'm a huge proponent of being able to digest your food properly because otherwise you don't feel good.

Well, you're not going to digest or get the nutrients. And that's the thing is like, you know, especially with intermittent fasting, I mean I really liked your principles, I guess I might call them or your approach which is just amount about just as much about the time you're not eating as it is about what you're doing when you are eating. And like you're saying eating mindfully, supporting the parasympathetic nervous system and then and the digestion system so you can get the most out of your healthy food you're choosing. So then when you do have a break from eating, you can also kind of say to yourself, I had that super duper eating experience already, now I'm having a break. And I think sometimes when we're just racing through the day and we don't have that real eating experience, it's no wonder that we keep eating because we're. You know what I mean?

We're, like, missing that experience.

So I love that about your approach.

So thank you for sharing it. I think it's important, you know, it can't be understated enough. How critically.

Important it really is that we're cognizant of the food choices that we're making. We investigate what works for us, what doesn't work for us. There's a great book called Wired to Eat by Rob Wolfe, and that's how I kind of figured out that grains don't agree with me anymore. You know, it's kind of like little by little, I've been, you know, getting. I got rid of gluten and dairy and then pulled grains out, and rice doesn't agree with me at all. It doesn't matter how small the portion is. It just regulates my blood sugar. I don't feel good. It is not worth it. Same thing with alcohol. As I'm getting older, I don't tolerate alcohol quite as much. I think a lot of people don't realize that our body will prioritize digestion or breaking down alcohol first before all other macronutrients. And for anyone who's trying to lose weight, it's like, listen, if you got to lose weight, cut out the alcohol. That's an easy thing to do.

No, I. My body must be very similar to yours because I, you know, too, over the years, figured out, okay, gluten is not going to work. Dairy's not going to work. Brains also very much, you know, affect me. And I think, you know, it's, you know, having these bodies that speak to us. We've gotten the chance to learn these things and now be able to share it with others so they can also benefit from it. Because I think, you know, some people will say, well, I never feel anything, you know, And I'm like, to some degree, it may just be that, you know, they haven't had a chance to really learn how to listen to what their body's indications are. But also some people's bodies just maybe aren't as sensitive and don't send as many signals. And so having a guide in this process to help you to know, hey, what are the signals to anticipate? What are the signals your body's sending and how to respond to them. I mean, I think that that can make a big difference versus trying to do it on your own and feeling lost in the process.

Absolutely.

I'm so glad to have you here and explaining all of this and to be able to share with people where they can get more support from you. So thank you so much for sharing with us.

You're welcome.

Great.

Well, I look forward to talking with you more soon.

Sounds great.

Thank you.

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