#26 Preparing for Pregnancy with Dr. Cleopatra

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions. Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Welcome, everyone, and thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to introduce you to Dr. Cleopatra. She is the executive director of the Fertility and Pregnancy Institute. What I think is amazing about Dr. Cleopatra is that she's a scientist, she's a researcher, and she's been studying women during pregnancy and fertility for, I don't know, a couple decades. And she's created.

Ways, methods and avenues for men and women to get the support they need to successfully conceive a pregnancy. And so it's just amazing. And I'm so excited to introduce you. So thank you so much for being with us, Dr. Cleopatra.

Dr. Donnie, I love being with you. So happy to be here.

And I'd like to start by having you share how you got to here.

What inspired you to do what you do.

Such a good question, Dr. Donney. I really. I'm 42, and I've been doing this work formally for more than half of my life already and informally for much longer than that. And people often ask me, how is it possible that that's the case? And really, I. There was no other way for me. I lost my mother at birth. My beautiful young mother was 27 years old. And that start to life, as you can imagine, was so rocky and so difficult, and it shaped me in profound ways. And one of the most profound ways in which it shaped me was that I understood very early in my life how painful it is when reproduction doesn't go well. And it became my obsession and my mission to help ensure that reproduction goes as well as possible for all women all over the world, regardless of what they look like, what background they come from, the resources that they have, et cetera. And through that process, I formally went into this work a month after my 18th birthday. I started at the University of Miami on scholarship, and I went straight into a laboratory studying fertility and pregnancy. From that point on, I started to develop what we now call the Primester protocol. For a long time, we called it in bloom. But the important thing is that early in my career, I made this discovery that the Primester, the time leading up to pregnancy is this critical developmental phase where we have the power to literally change the quality and the expression of our genes that we pass on to our children and our grandchildren. And through this process of epigenetics, we can ignite our fertility and preserve our fertility for as long as possible, but we can also create our super babies. And that's how all of this began.

Wow. I mean, it's how amazing that at such a young age, you. You were so clear about that, you know, purpose. And so I really want to honor that about you and acknowledge what amazing thing you're doing. And I think part of your mom's story is that she was a woman of color who went through. Right. So it's even more, you know, like representing that group of women to say, hey, something needs to change about.

The mortality rate of women in color in pre pregnancy and pregnancy and post pregnancy, right?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, throughout history, being pregnant and giving birth was an incredible risk to. To women's lives and was one of the leading causes of death among women. However, once we reached the 1900s, for the most part, that started to decline. But for women of color in the United States and in the western world.

It'S still very, very risky and dangerous to be pregnant and to give birth. And. And we have lots of research to show that that is because of the healthcare system and implicit unintended biases that are embedded in the healthcare system that result in differential treatment and moment to moment healthcare decisions that are not the best decisions for women of color and their children. And that's exactly what happened to my mother. My mother, I understood very early in my life, long before I'd ever heard of the word disparities, that my mother died because her life wasn't valued. That's how I understood her death. And I didn't always know this, but it's not just that I believe that, but it's actually documented because it was determined that it was the hospital's fault and a particular doctor's fault that my mother died unnecessarily in childbirth. And my mother was obviously a woman who looks like me, a woman of color. She was a new American. She didn't speak English, and my family didn't have health insurance. And this was in inner city Brooklyn. And the circumstances were really terrible and they were preventable. It was all preventable.

I mean, to go through, you know, that as your start to life and then to, you know, then be inspired to say, hey, I want to change this for other women is really amazing and beautiful thing. And so I'm. I'm so glad to be able to, you know, make sure others know what you've created. And like you said, you since researched women in pregnancy, but also in fertility. And I love how you were pointing out, like, how.

This piece about epigenetics, which I'm not sure if everyone is familiar with that term, it has to do with the fact that we can have genetic tendencies, but we also now know that our environmental and stress exposure influences how our genes express themselves, which means to me that we have a lot of power in our hands and our choices to have influence on how our bodies, you know, how our health shows up, you know, how, you know, like, our health is not predetermined by our genes. We can make choices to influence that, and not only for our own health, but, as you're saying, for our children's health.

Tell us more about your research in that area and, you know, how you're. How you've learned that you can actually help people sort of, you know, really harness that for their benefit.

Yeah. So epigenetics literally means above genetics. And it is the process whereby, through what we think, what we consume, how we live, how we interact with other beings and nature, just how we are in the world, that we can change the expression of our genes, we can activate the expression of our genes, we can suppress the expression of genes that represent vulnerabilities. And you can think of it kind of like a light switch that you can flip off and on, but also a light switch that has a dimmer, so you can dial it down and dial it up. And that is the process of epigenetics. And it's a relatively new field. It's been around formally for about 35 years, although there were other lines of evidence that were suggestive of this for a long time, and other people who were proposing that there was something like this. But. But many, many scientists oppose that possibility because the belief was that DNA represent destiny, that whatever your genes are, you're stuck with, which is the case. You cannot change your genes, but you can change your epigenome or your expression of your. The expression of your genes. And it used to be thought that whatever you got, you're stuck with, and it's just going to be what it's going. But the reality is that that's not true. In the mental health literature, we knew early on about something called the diathesis stress model. And it's the idea that there's some genetic predisposition or vulnerability to a mental health condition. Let's say depression or anxiety. And then a stressor, an extreme or maybe even not extreme stressor is introduced and it activates that genetic vulner vulnerability or predisposition. And the same thing is relevant to all areas of our mental and physical health, including our reproductive health and our fertility more specifically. And we now know that epigenetics or epigenetic inheritance is passed down across at least two generations. We think probably more than two generations, but we have strong evidence for at least two generations to date.

And how do you then take that information and use it to help women who are trying to get pregnant?

Yes, well, it turns out that just like the expression of our genes is malleable, our fertility is malleable. Our fertility is an epigenetic process as well. So when people come to us having experienced fertility challenges or they just want to make sure that they get to have their super baby, which is the healthiest, happiest, bright and most brightest and most well adjusted baby they can possibly have, given their genome and their epigenome and the genome and epigenome of the other person providing DNA for their baby. It's all the same process that we are working on, that we're working on in order to preserve and extend and ignite their fertility so that they get pregnant quickly and easily. But it also contributes to the health and well being of their babies, their babies, immune response, stress response system, the mental and physical health. They'll have their digestion, all of these things. So when they're prime ministering in service of their fertility, they're also setting up the health and longevity and also the fertility of their babies and their grandbabies.

And mind blowing when you think about it, right? Totally. Like you're, you know, sometimes when you're working on trying to conceive a pregnancy, you're like so focused on that pregnancy. But to think that it's going to have this ripple effect into that child's life and to the grandchild's life, you know, I mean it's just like you just go whoa. Like it's incredible. In some ways I think sometimes people might feel pressured by that, like a pressure to be perfect, you know, but at the same time, you know, we don't want to create a different kind of stress.

We want to create this.

Let's talk more about that. Let's talk about stress because it's of course one of my main interests, but I know it's an interest of yours too and how to create that perfect amount of stress that helps this whole process happen. But not too much stress, where it comes to a standstill. I always like to share. When I was training to be a midwife, one of the things that I learned was that even for labor, when women are in labor and having the baby, a certain amount of stress hormones are necessary. A certain amount of cortisol, a certain amount of adrenaline is necessary for the labor process to progress. But if women have too much cortisol and adrenaline, labor comes to a stop. I know you research this as well. Tell us more what you found related to stress.

Yeah, I love that so much, Dr. Donnie. And I love so much that you're a midwife. So I want to say, I want to talk about that difference between the pressure and the opportunity, because I agree with you that for a lot of people, the first time that they hear about how much influence they have over this process and this intergenerational domino, as I call it, it can feel really overwhelming. It can feel a little bit scary. But I like to present it in a different light because it is a tremendous opportunity. And when you have a very specific system, the duration, the sequencing, the exact steps you take, you don't even have to think about it. You just take the next step that's in front of you according to the system and you derive the benefits from doing that. I've done all of the obsessing, the weighing, the measuring we calculated for my book proposal, how many hours of my life I have spent developing, scientifically, testing, refining the Primester protocol. It is shocking. It almost 80,000 hours. 79,666. And that was already a couple of months ago. So I am sure we are about 80,000 now. So I think that it is just remember, it is an incredible opportunity and it is just like anything else in life. Think about how much prep preparation goes into choosing, signing or taking the sat. Choosing your major, what internship you're going to take, who you're going to partner with. Your wedding day, your wedding day is so special and so important. And you prepare for it for months, if not years, but it's just one day. And then we think that when we're going to, we want to have a baby, we just wake up one day and decide to have a baby and have sex and get pregnant. I mean, you can do that and that's okay. And that's what people have been doing since the beginning of time. But everything that we do with preparation and we prepare the soil, that's when we get the greatest return, when the growth is so incredibly beautiful. So I think of the Primester as an incredible opportunity, not a scary responsibility. So that's one thing. And, and, and you know, it's really interesting. I'm working privately with a couple right now and the dad is someone who suffered from drug addiction in the past and he's in recovery. And his, he said to his girlfriend when she told him that about prime ministering and that she wanted to do it, well, can't we just have sex and get pregnant? And we laugh about that now because every time I meet with them, all he can say is, this has changed my life. You know, I feel physically better than I ever have. And he's been in recovery and they live an incredibly healthy life now. So they were already very high in terms of the bar that they set for living healthy. And yet, you know, he feels better than he ever has before. But even more importantly, he feels so stable and solid on the inside that he feels so capable of doing everything else that he needs and wants to do, including laying the foundation for their super baby to come. And he said to me, I wish every man in recovery could experience this so they could feel this good. So it is this incredible opportunity for ourselves and also for our offspring. And in terms of the question of stress, it's a huge question. It's one that we have looked at for years and years and years, decades. And one of the most interesting things that we know is very much aligned with what you shared about the birth process. So people often will come to me and they're so worried that their stress levels are affecting their ability to get pregnant. And they're so worried that their stress levels in pregnancy will affect their babies. And I always tell them that there is an inverted U shaped relationship of stress to fertility and pregnancy outcomes. So both too little and too much stress are not ideal for your baby. But a moderate amount of stress is actually really adaptive for your system and that includes your fertility system. And it's really adaptive for your baby because remember that the primester in the in utero environment are the first exposures and experiences of your baby that teach your baby and your baby's system, including your baby's stress response system, what to expect out in the world and what to be prepared for out in the world. So you want your baby's system and stress response system to be agile enough to be able to adapt to the stressors that come up and then return to home homeostasis. And if your baby is never experiencing stress, that won't be the case. And if your baby is constantly experiencing off the chart Stress through you and your primus or your pregnancy, that's also going to become dysregulated. The same thing occurs with nutrition and with nutrients, the availability of nutrients. So we know that the both, it's again an inverted U shaped relationship. We know that the relationship of too few nutrients and too many nutrients is to fertility and pregnancy outcomes is not positive. When you are in the middle, that is when you and your baby are best off. In fact, at the level of too little and too much, the outcomes are very similar. In both cases. The baby is often predisposed to obesity and development of diabetes and developmental delays may be more likely to be born small, maybe more likely to be born early. These things are really important to know. Similarly, we see a fertile zone for BMI if somebody is that's about 19 to 25, but BMI is body mass index and the fertile zone is about 19 to 25. It's more nuanced than that because we also see different kinds of fertility body types. So for example, a body type where a lot of the body fat is concentrated in the midsection tends to be less fertile. It also tends to be less healthy in general. So somebody who has a slightly higher BMI but is carrying body fat, for example, on the bottom half of the body as opposed to in the midsection, may be able to get away with a slightly higher BMI and still be within the fertile zone. There are some nuances, but in general, 19 to 25 is ideal. And people who fall below that and.

Fall above that are more likely to have difficulty getting pregnant and staying pregnant. And guess what? In this case, people who are on the lower side of BMI statistically are more likely to have difficulty than people on the higher end of bmi. And I think that's really important to know. And restricting calories in mothers and fathers may predispose offspring babies to be more likely to be obese and have other kinds of metabolic condition.

Which is very interesting. Most people don't realize that. So if you, if you see someone who is a very, very thin woman, but she has an impossibly like chunky baby, and you're like, how is that possible? That is that process.

Something a lot of people don't know is that too much stress can actually create an abundance of health problems like high blood pressure, high blood sugar, anxiety, migraines, insomnia, even fertility issues. This is because high stress puts your adrenal glands on overload. They release cortisol and adrenaline, which controls your digestion, hormones, immune system, energy focus and Even your emotional response. So how can you beat stress when you don't know where to start? That's why we have a free seven day stress reset program. It's designed to help support weight loss, digestive healing and hormone balancing. It includes support for integrating self care. Daily tips come to you by email and video. Gluten free dairy free meal plans as well as grocery shopping lists, journal pages and more. This free program will help you beat stress and put you on the path to wholeness in your body. Get your plan now for free@drdani.com.

Wow. And I want to just clarify a couple things. One is you're a PhD, so you, you're doing some of this research yourself, right? Some of your actual research?

Absolutely, yeah.

And do you still do. You're still in the process of studies? Currently, Totally.

I currently have, so I've had in my career already $3 million in grant funding and I currently have about a million and a half dollars in grant.

Funding which is so like just it gives me like because I over here on my side, you know, 20 years of helping women with their health and with fertility and pregnancy. I have always been in the back of my mind hoping that there was some researcher out there studying this so that you would have the documentation to help women. And here you are. So you're like a dream come true to me that you're actually. And I want women to know that these things are getting studied and published so that hopefully there will be, because that's the only way we can hope to shift the medical system over time is to get it published and to show what a difference things like nutrition and, you know, and support, you know, what a difference it can make. But you're. The key is that they don't even have to wait for the studies or for the medical system to change because they can access your health.

Yes.

You're already implementing what you're learning from the research. You mentioned the word Prime Minister. So I want to have you like, you know, you kind of mentioned it, but tell us what that is and how you defined Prime Master. Right? Like that's something you have identified through your research.

Yes, I coined the term, I identified it. So I think that this is really, really important because.

We are constantly updating the Prime Master protocol based on new scientific data. So it's always up to date.

It has evolved tremendously over the past 24 years.

And I would say that the core of it is the same. The fertility pyramid is the same and I can speak more about that. But as we have more information, we are always updating. And so it's always the most up to date place to come. For most doctors, and especially fertility doctors, it's hard to keep up with the emerging science and to incorporate it into your clinical practice, because what happens is like anything, you continue to do what you've always done and it's hard to make space for newer things. And that's why one of the things that we do at the Fertility and Pregnancy Institute is also to partner with fertility clinics with IVF doctors. Because we know that the likelihood of success in assistive reproductive technologies, including IVF and iui, are influenced significantly by the individual level epigenetic factors that we address. And yet that's outside of the purview of what these clinics are able to do. So if people want to, even if people don't want to try to conceive naturally, even if they know that they're going to use some form of assisted reproductive technology, that is still their work to do to prime ester before going into their IVF cycle. Because let me give you a concrete example of this. We know that when you go through the IVF process, the goal is to stimulate the body to produce as many eggs as possible so that as many eggs as possible can be collected and fertilized with the sperm that gives the greatest odds of having as many of those fertilized eggs progress to the five day blastocyst stage as possible. Since about 2010, there's been a technology called PGS testing available for the IVF process, which allows for the embryos that are created to be screened for chromosomal abnormality.

That is how IVF can help to ensure that only healthy or chromosomally normal embryos are transferred to the uterus in an IVF cycle. However, there's nothing that IVF can do to address the root cause of what produces a healthy embryo. What produces healthy egg and healthy sperm which will combine to produce the embryo. You cannot outsource that part of your fertility.

You have to walk in ready to. And.

Even someone who might want to do an egg retrieval, it's the same thing. Or to do a frozen egg, right? Yes. You want to be thinking ahead to say, how do I make sure? And that's the amazing thing. There are things you can do. But the fertility center, that's not part of their service, they're not going to say, do this, this, this for the several months before we do the egg retrieval, you know, but the studies are there to say that there are things you can do that's going to make a difference. So it's such a good point to clarify, like may as well. You know, you have to kind of take it on and be your own health advocate in that situation always.

I mean, we know this when it comes to eating healthy or training for a marathon. You already know that there is nobody who can do it for us. There are people who can give us a menu to follow, who can give us a workout schedule to follow, but we are the only ones who can actually do it. It doesn't matter how much money we have available to us and how much money we're willing to throw at the problem. It's still ours to do. And yet nobody tells us this when it comes to the raw material that will go into creating our super babies. And that is hugely, hugely important.

And you said something really critical, which is that the same thing is true if you want to freeze your eggs. Even if it's not about fertility, it's not about having I that you just, you, you're getting older, you're not quite ready to have your children, you haven't met your, your, your prince or princess or non binary regal person and you just, you want to preserve your eggs so that you can use them for later. It's the same thing. You still want to prime ester before going into your to your egg freezing cycle and you want to think of the day that you're getting your eggs retrieved for freezing as the day of conception. So you want for at least 120 days prior to that. And we used to have a separate egg freezing program called Good Egg but it's essentially the same exact program so we no longer distinguish between the two. If you want to freeze your eggs, you want to do ivf, you want to conceive naturally. Whatever day you're going to be supplying the raw material for your baby is the day that you want to have been prepared through prime estering and the primester for a number of different scient and underlying processes, including the egg maturation process. You want to be at least 120 days. But we do see a dose response relationship of primester to fertility and to pregnancy and childhood outcomes. Which means that the longer you primester the better. So if you're a year out from having children, if you're 10 years out from having children, you are so far ahead of the game and at such an incredible advantage. If you start learning about the prime master, you start implementing 80, 20, 80% of the primester. Obviously you are not going to strive for Perfection. And we don't recommend striving for perfection at any point because we don't want people's perfectionistic tendencies to harm them psychologically or to create unnecessary stress in the body. So we always do not try to be perfect. We have a process that we take our mamas and couples through every single week of their primester that we call a diagnostic process where they really figure out where they want to focus the majority of their energy and attention for their unique body and life and circumstances. And so, you know, but it. So we don't ever want you to try to be perfect. But if you're 10 years out, for sure you're not going to strive for implementing the protocol fully, but you'll do 80, 20 as you get closer. You'll go to 90, 10 and you will be so incredibly ready for your baby. And your fertility will be as ignited as humanly possible. But you will also have created the very best epigenetic foundation for your baby humanly possible.

What I hear you saying is that it's not like when people are thinking of following your program. It's not like you're going to say to them, no, you can't start until such and such timeline. You're going to say, hey, you know, whenever you're ready, let's begin. And you mentioned your pyramid. Talk us through that. Because what I really wanted, I'm thinking that this might be the question people are wondering about is how is what you offer different than maybe what they've seen out there or what they're already doing. And I'm thinking that that's included in your pyramid, like that really defines how what you do is different. Is that right?

Absolutely. And we get that question all the time. I would say that our clients are largely very high achieving women who have waited a long time to have children or anticipate that they will be waiting a long time to have children because they're focusing on education and career and they have really high standards for who they're partnering and all of these things. So they're taking longer to choose their partner. And these women are in many ways already living very healthy and eating clean and taking supplements and really knowledgeable about their health. And so we often get asked that question, I already live so healthy, how is this different? Or they've tried everything to have their baby already, even ivf, and they're asking us, how is this going to be different than everything else that I've tried that hasn't worked for me? And this question is so, so important because Once people start prime ministering with us, their minds are blown because they're like, now I fully get it. We try to explain, but I don't think that people can fully comprehend. And they come in and see what this is. But the gist of it to understand is that we take a very unique and pioneering approach to the biological clock infertility. We think of it as a complex network, like the neural network in the brain, if you can picture that. And we represent this complex network through the fertility triangle or the fertility pyramid. So imagine in your mind the food pyramid, or if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's like that. So within the pyramid there are five levels. The base level is the psychosexual level. The second level is bioecological, the third is neuroimmunology, the fourth is social, and the fifth is cultural. Now you can tell just from that fertility pyramid that there's nowhere else in the world where you ask questions or. Yeah. That people are addressing fertility, that they're addressing all of these levels of the fertility pyramid. In fact, most people, and this is the case with IVF as well, are addressing the bioecological level only and not even nearly as comprehensively as we do. And the other thing that you'll notice about the fertility pyramid is that as I was saying before, you cannot outsource most of these levels of the fertility pyramid. It is your work to do.

And in the process you end up improving your health like you talked about, even mental health, and end up improving their health through this process. So, like, no matter what you got back out of it and then. But at the same time. Yeah, it has. I love how you said more like the domino effect, that ripple effect that goes through. I mean, I think it's, it's so exciting and brilliant and I really, I know that there are so many women and couples that are trying to conceive and, you know, really needing, you know, this help. And so you. I know people could work with you one on one, but you also offer this as a group program, is that right? Like an online program so people can do it from wherever they are.

Yes, I actually do. I'm not taking any more one on ones. We, I, we simply. I don't have the capacity to do.

That, but help them this other way.

Yes, because, because, because for me, obviously the way my life started has a big part to do with this or is largely responsible for this. But for me, one of the most important things in this mission is to make this information and this Impact as accessible as humanly possible to women and couples and families all over the world. And in order to do that, I really had to move away from a model of. Of working one on one with people. And we have focused on our group programming. So we have. And these group programs were really created to make the Prime Minister Protocol as accessible as humanly possible. Now, eventually my book will be out. I can't wait for that. And that will obviously be the most accessible version of the Primester Protocol. And I'm not holding anything back. People always tell me you shouldn't include the whole system in the book. And I 100% am including the entire system in the book.

I don't know to be a resource probably for the people in your program. Like they can read the book, then they can come to the course and tell us more how the course goes.

Yeah. And even for people who can't afford the course, even though we've tried to price the programs as low as possible, there are still some people who can't afford them. So the book will be available for them.

You just want the most people to benefit as possible.

Again, just. This is your, obviously your purpose in life. You feel like you had this chance to live when your mom didn't. And I can see that this is just living your purpose. So how exciting to be able to put it into a book form. Yeah. When is that going to be ready?

You're going to make me cry. So the book is actually written and it has been for a while. And to be perfectly honest with you, I have an opportunity. I have an opportunity to go to the publishing houses, but I have received advice that it's not smart to do because I don't have a big platform.

So you're getting it ready first.

And so I decided not to wait because I feel like it's not the right thing. So it's coming. Even though I've been told from a business standpoint, it's not that it would be smarter to wait, but it's so important to me that it gets out into the world as soon as possible. So my hope is that it will come out in 2021. If not, it will be by 2022.

I'm sure everybody listening is going to be like, so excited, waiting. But it's like another baby for you. I mean, I know you already have your children.

This is your book Baby.

Totally. Totally. And in fact, you know where my husband and I are discussing baby number four. And one of the reasons why we didn't go for baby number Four this year is because I don't want to be doing a book tour while, like when I just recently have given birth, because I like, I parent very, very, very closely. Like kind of, you know, on top of my children. We're all really close. So these. So I can't wait for the book to come out. It's a huge thing for me. You're right. It is like having another baby. So for the group programs, you have your baby there with you.

Yes.

This is Sabre. He's enjoying this conversation.

So we have two versions of the group program. So one of them is the self guided version of the Prime Master Protocol. It is priced as low as humanly possible. And then the other version is the live cohort of the Prime Master Protocol. We are only offering that right now twice a year. And in 2021 it'll start being just once a year. But it's incredible. It's the same system, but in the live cohort there are live virtual gatherings seven plus times per week. All these incredible Q&As with me, with the FPI team, with guest experts. Basically, it's impossible to fall through the cracks. It's almost impossible to not succeed in the context of doing the live cohorts. You just feel so supported and held. And I think that there are a lot of people who, who hear the word support and think that that sounds nice, but is it really that important? It's kind of an optional thing, just like the word pleasure, and we didn't talk about that. But I always say treat pleasure as if your fertility depends on it because it does well when it comes to support, we actually have countless studies that show that women who have social support are much more likely to have positive outcomes in terms of their fertility and pregnancy and the outcomes of their children. So it's a huge thing. Huge.

Well, I mean, it just reminds me of like a doula is a labor center. And the studies show that, you know, again, back to the stress curve you were talking about, like you want to help get yourself into the middle of this curve. You don't. And by having support, you kind of take yourself back from the high stress. We know having support does that. It helps reduce stress. But, you know, so it gets you in the middle of the curve where you're going to be have more optimal results. Same with a doula during labor and delivery. They're going to help give you that support so you can have a more optimal labor process. So it makes complete sense to me. But I agree with you. I mean, I think We've so much of the time been taught that support is an indulgence for something and we're supposed to be able to do it on our own and we're supposed to know how. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and expectation that somehow we're supposed to know how to do this just because, I mean, of course women have been doing it forever and our bodies inherently know how to conceive and get pregnant and have a baby. But for us, it could be the first time or the second time and.

It helps to have someone to talk it through with and a group of people who are going through the same thing because otherwise it can be quite isolating because. Because a lot of times with fertility, women and couples feel like they can't tell anyone because people worry about a pregnancy loss and not really wanting to tell every. It's kind of that isolating experience, which I don't agree with. Of course. I feel like I would love for our society to change to where women feel like they can share more openly about pregnancy loss and the stresses of fertility. But.

The truth is that right now a lot of women feel like they can't share. And so to have a support system of other people going through the same thing, I think that's probably one of the biggest benefits of it.

Yes, it's so, so true. So what we teach about is we call it TTC as and the tools, training, community accountability and support. You get the same tools in training, whether you Prime Minister on your own or you Prime Minister in community. But what differs is the level of the community and accountability and support that you get when you prime us or in group. And you said something which I really want to underscore because it is key, you talked about how it can feel really isolating. And we know that feeling isolated and social isolation, feeling alone in your experiences of hardship or whatever they may be, is the equivalent of smoking cigarettes in terms of the impact on health and longevity. And this hasn't been studied directly in correlation with fertility. But I'm sure that we would see the same thing if we looked at social isolation. Specifically, we have looked at the counterpart, which is social support. And so I want to say that, you know, just like we said, you know, social support can sound nice, but like an indulgence or like it's optional. It's really not if you think about the consequences of social isolation on our mental and physical health and on our stress response. So I think that is really, really important to remember. And the other thing to remember is that.

When couples. So in our society, and in many societies in the world, when people are experiencing fertility challenges, or even when they're just planning to get pregnant whether they're having challenges or not, and also in the first trimester of pregnancy, couples are keeping this to themselves. And yet these are points that support is needed more than ever. And so we're really doing a disservice by creating a culture where these things have to be happening behind the scenes and where people can't get the support that they need. And one of the things that we see commonly at the Fertility and Pregnancy Institute is that women are relying heavily on their partners and that the partners do not feel equipped to provide all of the levels and nuances of support that they need, because they don't.

It's new to them, too.

Yeah, it's new to them. They don't share the experience of having the ability to carry a child in the first place. So while fertility challenges are equally difficult for males, if this is a heterosexual relationship.

It'S not the same experience of fertility challenges. So one of the first things that happens is that the partner is like, oh, thank God there's somebody else to support and help us, because I don't know how to do that.

It's a stress relief for them.

Yeah. And then the other thing is that, you know, we collect tons of data on the primester protocol on the outcomes, and one of the things that we see almost without fail, is if. If there. If the mama who's prime ministering is in relationship, and we have lots of mamas who come to prime minister on their own because they're not in relationship and they're planning to have a baby on their own. But if they're in a relationship, they always report, like, incredibly positive change in their relationship. They feel closer than ever. They feel more loved and supported than ever. There's more harmony in the relationship. They feel like they're on the same page and growing in the same direction, and it's really incredible.

So if someone wants to connect more or find out about your trimester protocol and your program, where should they go? Where's the best way to get started?

So the best thing to do is to come to the Fertility and Pregnancy Institute website and there you will see an incredible free resource called the Ultimate Fertility Checklist. And it really is the Ultimate Fertility Checklist, and it has incredible tips to start getting on your way to prime mastering and things that you've never heard before about your fertility. So that's a great place to start. If you want to learn more?

Okay, perfect.

So, and the website, is it the Fertility Pregnancy Institute or is that.

I didn't say the website. Pardon? Thank you. It's fertilitypregnancy.org fertilitypregnancy.org okay.

And I'll, I'll put it down below as well. But I just in case someone's listening and they're not looking at it, I read fertilitypregnancy.org okay, so that's easy. And I'm, yeah, I'm hoping they'll go over and learn more and start connect with you. And, and again, thank you so much for being here and sharing this, but also for everything you do. I mean, I really think that your work is going to be changing the future.

Forever going forward. I just think it's such amazingness that you do every day. So thank you.

Thank you. That's the goal. And it's absolutely my honor and joy. Thank you so much.

I'll talk to you soon. Thank you.

Thanks, Dr. Donnie.

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