#33 Recovering from Epstein Barr Virus with Dr. Kasia Kines

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions. Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

I'm welcoming Dr. Kasia Kynes. On the podcast. Today, she's a doctor of clinical nutrition, which is actually quite rare. She has both a master's in clinical nutrition, and then she went on to get a doctorate in clinical nutrition. And she and I have something in common, which is that we both were at Bastyr University when I was doing my naturopathic degree and midwifery degree at Bastyr. And Kasia did her master's in nutrition at Bastyr, which is in the Seattle, Washington area. And she now lives in the San Juan Islands, which is where I grew up going to the San Juan Islands. So we have so much in common. It's so much fun to have you here, Kasia. Thank you for joining me.

I am. I couldn't be more excited. Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here.

Tell everyone, like, how did you get so inspired about nutrition to do all of that training and to be helping people with nutrition? How did you get to where you are now?

There's stories and stories, but I guess I got married. And that's a story in itself. That is quite, quite crazy. And I moved to the States just when I literally, my 30th birthday was still in Poland. And then right after it, I moved.

With, wow, so you came from Poland to the United States when you were 30 years old. Wow.

Yes. I had a career. I had a master's degree in English philology. I was a translator. I taught English. And when I moved, I moved to Michigan. I got married to a Michigander. And so immediately, with two, three weeks that summer, I started to teach at a local university. And that's part of the story, actually, because Michigan has high incidence of obesity. And then that was the summer when I started to eat American foods. And I remember, first time I came for a visit in the States.

My first day was visiting.

My kind of adoptive American family's.

Relatives in Oklahoma. And the first breakfast that they served me, very memorable. I had diarrhea.

You're like, wait a minute.

This is not the same as what.

I've been Eating in Poland, Yes.

I was served, I think, wonder bread and maybe bologna sandwich or something like that for breakfast and a glass of orange juice. Or juice. Oh. And so. But then in Michigan, the food was strange. The tomatoes were big and pale and completely tasteless. Watermelons taste less. Apples. I ate an apple and tasted plastic. And I couldn't, like, I couldn't reconcile what was going on because in Poland at that time, things were simple. And it was the 90s and it was exactly the time when Monsanto was starting, when Roundup Ready was big. Roundup was big. So literally when I was driving to work to the university, it was Michigan, in the middle of farmland. I was driving through those field, I was looking at the signs, Roundup Ready. Roundup Ready. Roundup ready. Wow.

So right there it was really clear. It wasn't even hidden. They had signs up.

It was. Yeah, in the field. This is. Yes, you have to identify it. And so there was a lot of upheaval at that time. And there was an anti GMO movement that was starting. And I was at the university and I was teaching international students pre college English. I was helping them to go to college, to university.

And so we had some conversations. It was a great topic. So they were calling their parents South Korea and, you know, different countries and asking. And this was the time when there was a lot of upheaval in consumer response worldwide because this was new technology and was being aggressive. You know, potatoes, tomatoes, you know, I don't remember it was such a long time ago, but it was the beginning and, you know.

Opened your eyes to.

Like, well, I want to study nutrition.

Well, yes, the thing was the food. There was something about the food.

And then the GMO and it was really upsetting. We did a couple of lectures for students and then for farmers, local farmers at the university. And they were so upset with me. They were so upset with me. And I remember FDA allowed at that time letters from consumers if they were okay with toxic sludge having the status of organic. And so I contributed to it. They had to stop it because we bombarded them with the letter. So I was not, I'm not an activist. And all this took toll on me because it was so depressing, it was so negative, and I just couldn't wrap my head around it. But I was also ending a marriage that was short and was not successful. And so I was revisiting what I wanted to do in. And naturopathic medicine is what I fell in love with. I was reading the, you know, the German school. I was Reading all kinds of books. I heard about Bastyr. Somebody from Michigan, friend of friend was in school there, so I actually flew to see it. And so I was enrolled and accepted into Bastyr MD program, except I can't do blood. And the responsibility of being a doctor was overwhelming. So that summer, I had one more prerequisite to do biochemistry. And I said, you know what? I can't do this program. I think I need to do nutrition program. Unfortunately, I had a whole host of new prerequisites. You got more.

More than you needed for the nutrition program.

Completely different. Yeah. It's like physiology, because it wasn't for, you know, they trained you on the job there, but for nutrition, you had to train. So. But during that period in Michigan, before I. Before I left Michigan and went to Bastyr, moved there, I started to listen to public radio. And I had cassettes that I recorded everything. And I listened repeatedly to all kinds of new psychology concepts, new dimensions, alternative radio from Colorado that I learned so much. I repeatedly listened to quite a number of lectures about Biopiracy of Seeds by Vandana Shiva. I was so inspired by her. And years years later, when I was in Baltimore and she came to speak to at Hopkins, I actually attended and I talked to her. It's like, you are one of the reasons why I'm a nutritionist.

Yeah. So that gives me goosebumps. I love it when that happens.

Yeah, I know.

I love someone who's inspired you. Right?

I know. But, you know, I was just primed to do something, but I really wanted to do something positive. And at the end of the. At the end of the day, food is unescapable. Politics is that. But food is what we do. Food is what we do as a community. Food is what we're losing. The sense of cooking together and healing, sitting together, eating. We're losing it. And especially in this culture here, it's just fuel. We're looking at it so wrong. And so, like, I teach everyone that I can to have pleasure, enjoy and chew and enjoy. You know, it takes me two hours to eat a bowl of popcorn or a little bowl of sunflower seeds because I chew these.

You learned. I mean, I know because I have a degree in nutrition also, that we have to learn everything from the moment we're looking at the food or even thinking about food, to putting it in your mouth, to chewing, the whole digestive process, all of the hormones involved, all of the nerves, like the vagal nerve involved. And when you study to that degree, for myself, I get Such a high awareness for it that it's like we can't even think of not putting an emphasis on the eating process, because we can see, even from you mentioned, biochemistry to understand how those nutrients we get from our foods then get into our bodies and into our cells to be able for our body to function and make energy and do the things we want to do. So it makes sense to me that you've really. Not only did you study nutrition, but you live it. You live nutrition. And now I know that you have really specialized in helping people to use nutrition to recover from a specific virus, the Epstein Barr virus. I want to talk more about that. And for those who maybe are not familiar with Epstein Barr virus, which is also known as the monovirus, but Kasia, share with us how you got to focusing on Epstein Barr virus and how you describe it to people.

I'm really lucky that all this happened, because there was a day in my life when none of that was even on my radar. And I, I, you know, I just. I still pinch myself. I'm really lucky because when you are a clinician, like with a papilloma and stress, you have your love when you can share really what you really, really are committed to. And, you know, I was a functional clinical nutritionist, and I worked with all kinds of complex cases, just like you would.

And sometimes I would hit the wall and I was doing everything right, and the patient would be doing everything right. And we said, what is it that I don't know? But the thing is.

My luck is kind of at an expense of a friend that I lost in Poland. So she was diagnosed with Ms. Out of the blue, five, six months before I was due to immigrate to the States. And so it was like she sat down and talked to me, you know, a few months ago, did you know I was in ER in hospital? It's like, what? And so I always had that at the back of my mind as I moved to the new country, as I started my new life. You know, she was fighting for her life deeper and deeper over the first decade and the second decade. And I remember she died of complications. And.

I remember somebody telling me, you know, I had a friend with ms, you have less time than you think you had to. You know, I had a very complicated life, and I didn't want to worry her.

And then the last time I talked to her on the phone, I couldn't recognize and understand what she was saying. Her son had to step in. We always called at least once a year for Christmas. And so I was devastated because I didn't have money to fly to Poland and just go and see her where she was and hold her hand. And that was the last time I talked to her. And I was afraid to call, and I was afraid. I was just immobilized. And when that woman told me about it, I sat down and wrote this very long letter about everything and how much I love her and so on. And she was already gone, and her son was afraid to tell me for so long. So literally last summer, it was the first time I went to Poland, and I actually spent a few days in the city where I used to live and where she lived and he lived. So we spent the day together with him, and he took me to the cemetery and we talked about her and all that. It was just sweet. And my book is dedicated to both of them.

And so I think, because I was so devastated that I couldn't help her, and at some point, I was already a nutritionist, but I didn't know. And I always asked the question, what the heck is this? Why. Why did she get Ms. And exactly.

Could have helped her if you had known.

Yes. And this is, you know, it gnaws at you, and you keep asking this question, and so the answers start coming. So we'll never know why she got so sick.

In my desperation, I asked a medical intuitive friend of mine if, once I learned about the virus, if the virus had something to do with it. And she confirmed it. But, you know, it's just for my peace of mind that now I know. But I have to tell you that all the coincidences that happened.

I can't explain. And one day I had a dream that she was sitting at the very corner chair. All the chairs were empty. She was in the last row in that little chair, smiling, like, smiling happy. And I'm standing on the stage. And I didn't know what that means, but I know the stage that I'm on is just advocacy so other people don't have to go through what she went through.

Because I'm sure she is so happy that you're to know that you're helping people.

I think she has to be behind it, because even in my doctoral program, what are the odds that I have a virology class with Dr. Vasquez, and that was the only time he taught there. And that made me think. I learned about viruses. That made me like, oh, that made me, you know, he had a protocol. I started to hone in on it, and I started to get results, and I started to dig Deeper. And so the doctoral program forced me to do medical literature review because I had to focus on something. I might as well because I was getting results. Yeah. Yeah. And so I came up with 71 pages. I believe I shared it with some colleagues. And Dr. Lislipsky, who created this PhD program, was my kind of director of it, and my husband, too. Everybody was saying, well, the book. You need to write the book. Yeah. And I was terrified because I had never written a book and I didn't have a life like, what are you talking about? What book? But, you know, then I thought, I am responsible. I have these amazingly good results pretty consistently. So I have a responsibility. What if somebody writes it wrong and this is all based on research? I, you know, it has to be. And so the longer I worked, the more I thought, I have to write it. And then I realized that the years of my clinical work, my philosophy of what food is, what sustainable food is for humans, where we have a sweet spot, most of us.

It was very consistent. Even my, you know, my detox program that I had taught so many years before that, all that philosophy, all the work that I've done, it's exactly corresponding to the research I'm finding for Epstein Barr. So it was so easy for me to write the book, get all the resources, recipes and all that, because it was working. So I really feel like there was a reason for all this. I am the right person in the right time with the right people, and I had the responsibility to take it and just. And just do my best, and that's what I've been doing.

Well, that's amazing. I mean, I really think it's important for people to know that you're such a resource when it comes to Epstein Barr virus, that you've done the research and you've thought it through as a nutrition expert. Whereas because I know with Epstein Barr virus, people will often, once they find out that it might be part of. And we can talk about this, how to know if it might be part of your case. But once people start to realize, hey, maybe Epstein Barr has something to do with what I'm experiencing with my health, and they start searching, there's a lot of other messages and information out there from people who may not have that extensive education and research that you do. And so I really want to emphasize the difference when they're learning from you and what they can experience and learn from your experience and. And not to say that everyone else is incorrect. It's just to know, hey, if you're really wanting to Know from someone who's really dug in deep, then you're that person. And the thing about Epstein Barr virus is that most. First of all, I just want to say a couple facts and see if you. Maybe this is going to be things that you also agree with, which is that to know that most all of us are exposed to Epstein Barr virus, I think it's greater than 90%. We all are exposed to Epstein Barr. Even if you don't remember having monovirus. I mean, a lot of people have mono as a teenager and they experience the fatigue and, you know, going through sometimes several weeks of recovery from mono, often as a teenager. But a lot, most all of us are exposed to it and we might not have even known we had it. But it's a virus that's in our environment as humans. It's. It's something we get exposed to in our immune system, can learn to fend it off for us so that it doesn't necessarily cause health issues, but it's something that can kind of live in our system. And the thing that often is not mentioned, especially in the regular medical system, is that Epstein Barr virus can become active again later in life. It can become an active virus that's causing health issues later as kind of like a secondary infection. And it's there. It's not something that you're going to hear about from your regular doctor's appointment, right? Is it. Is this. Tell me, is this what you are.

So on that you are so on the spot. You're exactly right. Yeah. And the travesty of it is, you know, it takes a long time for the traditional medical practice actually catch up with what's in literature, what we know, what works. So we have 15 years or 20 years before testing. Interpretation will change and testing markers will improve which markers you actually test and which are not so helpful.

So you're probably referring to.

One reason why I was so focused on really doing the job that I did is because the medical community has a very different approach. It's old science. It's very similar to thyroid. You know, you work with Hashimoto's and old science, you know, they don't even test properly. And the ranges are not, you know, it's like it gets.

Because it's not in the standard protocol. So like a lot of times now, when I, when I. When I want to know, is a person, do they have active Epstein Barr virus? You can test the antibodies, right? We can test the titers, what's called titers, any kind of infection. Right. If you wanted to test your titers for herpes virus or you know, rubella or you know, chickenpox, you can. But with Epstein Barr virus you can test the titer, which means that you're looking for. We're looking for the antibodies that the immune system is making for that virus. The thing about the immune system is we make certain antibodies right in the moment when we have an infection. So that would be igm. I always say we just name these antibodies with letters. We're like, oh, this one's letter M is for a current recent infection. And when it's a more time distance from the infection, so over months or longer, we're looking at the antibody called IgG. Same thing with Lyme. Right. We look at IgM versus IgG so we can ask the lab to check for these antibodies. And with Epstein Barr, we're looking at specific antibodies to even more specific than that. Right. We look at the PCA and the EBNA and the early antigen.

So first of all, I'm going to talk about something that doctors sometimes test called pcr. So this is testing for DNA of the virus. And if you look at efficacy, first of all, it can be expensive and the efficacy in medical literature is not very high. It's very easy to miss the virus, especially if PCR is done a little too late. So if you imagine the virus shedding and the virus being in the bloodstream when it lyses, when you have reactivation, that's a short few weeks. And after that, the purpose of the virus is to hide in cells, so it's leaving the bloodstream, you're not going to detect it.

So it's not. It's like you would be testing but you already know you're not going to find it.

No, you're most likely. And if you look at literature, it's better for the initial infection, apparently that statistically you can find it better. But also if your doctor insists on that, you want to make sure that you test it when you are really feeling like the tract hit you over. Like when you're sick, you're sick, but when you have a reactivation, you're really sick and you would know it. So this is why you want to get yourself to the doctor and get the lab. So that's why I don't even discuss that ever. But I know some doctors will. And then we have four antibodies and then if those four antibodies are completely blank, zero, you have to also test your total immunoglobulins because to check if.

You are even making any antibodies so.

If that is weird it's like there's nothing coming. Everything is clear. 000. That's not practical. Test your total IGG, total IGM, total IGA, maybe even total IGE. And any doctor can do that. That's not a big deal. And see if they are lower than it should be. Because then you have to recalculate. Like take a calculator and recalculate if they were normal. You have to multiply your test result by figure it out. Like what could it be? But if you have them positive then the most important one that sometimes I still see still doctors miss is early antigen. Early antigen is the one that comes up with reactivation. So when you have a flare up.

If you want to test. You want to test when you have a flare up and then you want to test when you feel the best. You don't want to test at random times. If you do you want to write down when you get a report. You have to write down on this report. When I did this Test I was 75% better already after my reactivation. And I think my worst reactivation was on these dates. So you can compare it because here's what happens. I remember in my clinical training one of my students says I have a classic presentation. Everything fits like a glove. I'm pretty sure it's chronic ebv. But she did the testing and. And you know, and the two big antibodies are there but the early antigen is fine. I don't know what to do. It's like well, okay, when did she test that early antigen? January. Okay. When did she feel like the truck ran her over Thanksgiving.

So they kind of tested at the time you'd expect it to be high.

They just missed it because it just 2, 3, 4 weeks depending on the person and then it will stabilize. Some people have. You know, some people every time they test early antigen is high. And I don't know if it keeps reactivating or it keeps being on. That would be scary.

So that's. The early antigen is really critical to see where you are in the map.

Oh my gosh. I'm so glad to hear you say that. Because I love that early antigen test. Like when I. When. When I'm helping patients who are wondering about Epstein Barr and. Or if I'm. They come in and maybe they have symptoms of unexplained fatigue and. And some of these symptoms we're going to talk about. Then I'll say let's check your Epstein Barr. But you have to really be clear with the Lab to check the IgG for early antigen because it's not the test they normally do. If you just say to a, for an EBV panel, they might not do early antigen. So you have to. I find I have to put it in capital letters and bold to make sure the phlebotomist knows to check the early antigen. Right. So you may have to actually advocate for yourself when you go to the lab to have your blood drawn, please.

And I can't tell you enough how many times I explained that to the patient. The patient gave instructions to the doctor and they still did three. And you don't know, you don't know what that means. So early antigen is most important. And then people are confused about VCA igm, the only IGM in the package. So the IGM traditionally, you know, in labs like we discussed, traditional IGM is current exposure in ebv. If you look at a medical research, typically IGM only really flares up with the first initial infection. It does, if you look at graphs, it does increase a little bit with reactivation so much less than early antigen that oftentimes it's not on the radar, it's not going to show positive.

So when I work hard to identify it that way. So it's going to be hard.

The expected, like the traditional report that I will get, that would be normal. And that doesn't mean everything is normal. It just means it's not your first one and it's probably not enough to spike it. I've had only a handful of people that I see VCA IGM elevated every time. And so there are irregularities in testing and I put them in the book, I put them on the website. There are, there are no. 10% of population doesn't make a particular antibody at all to this virus.

So the thing is that the testing is not like 100% like it gives us a tool to try to identify this. But it's not like you can, it's not the end all, be all. You might get some of these looking normal or low or sometimes high, sometimes low. But it does, it's, it's like you have to put that together with your whole clinical case.

Yes.

And I think there's another thing you're mentioning which I think is really important for people to understand about Epstein Barr reactivation is that it's, it comes and goes. Like it's one of these things that tends to where you feel worse and then you feel a little better. And it goes in these, ah.

This is what, this is what we do so the baseline improves. Improves. This is life. This is any healing. This is any healing. You know that. This is life. This is how we want it. We improving. It's not always like that. It's ups and downs. Yes. So, you know, there will be irregularity. But like you said, everybody is different. And a good doctor.

It works with a person, not with a lab. You know, it's just. And all these variables are in the book. And I have samples of different scenarios on the website page for, you know, for the, for the lab. So that's so helpful too. You know, you have different context. So the big ones that, you know, the big ones that stay elevated for life possibly are vc, IGG and ebnaigg. You know, you tag, then they're gonna be floating up, but if you reactivate, they will increase a little between reactivation, they will stabilize and kind of go their way. If you do program, you know, protocol specifically, you're cleaning up, they might go a little lower and lower, not to zero. It's not expected. So you can have a fabulous life, know exactly where you are, know exactly what you're doing, and not think twice if you get the report that these are still elevated. When people get really, really trapped and depressed is when they say, no matter what I do, those two are more than 600. And so I'm really not getting better because it's the same value. And I always ask, well, look at your trajectory. You know, you feel better. Your functionality is from 20% to 80%. And now.

You felt like the truck hit you over, running over every three weeks. And now the last time was five months ago. Now that's a very different scenario. And let's say your headaches are gone and maybe, you know, your throat, the lymph is normalized. Like, wow, you can now move your neck. How nice. So, and you look at those labs and you demoralize because it's still more than 600. So what people don't understand is that it could have been 2000, 1500, and maybe it's dropping each time. And maybe right now it's 675, maybe it's 601. And maybe eventually it's going to be a number like 500. So you can't really get demoralized by those two big ones if they are still more than 600, because that's the biggest number that the lab recognizes.

I gotcha. So just again, not be so attached to the number. Really pay attention to how you're feeling. And it sounds like you're encouraging people to journal too. Like, how am I when I don't feel well? Write it down so you can then look for patterns.

I understand your trajectory. Yes. And so if I work with a new patient, I always ask them, read the book in. In terms of your life story and how the virus thinks. And then people make connections. Oh my gosh. I had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, the kind that is called idiopathic. And it's one of those seven autoimmune disorders that are triggered by add. I said nobody knew what it was. I never thought about it. And then in college, now I remember I had this IC with mono. I didn't know, but in college I tanked. And then this, and then this, and then this. I knew her for years as my patient for other reasons until she actually tanked for with ebv. I never connected these docs because we never had that conversation. We were working on gut issues and she. She didn't have those flare ups when she was working with me. So.

Labs are only a useful tool if you can intelligently piece it together with your trajectory. It's nothing else. If you take it out of context, people are really hung up on labs.

Yeah.

So you just hung up on a pill. Give me a pill and give me a lab. And now I know everything. No, no, it's just, you know, it's just a little piece of your context.

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Think what you're saying, which is important, is we can use the labs to give us some information and to some extent it can be helpful, but especially with Epstein Barr virus. And I think this is true for a lot of health Issues. We can't just depend on this number on our lab test to tell us what's going on in our body. We have to really be feeling and learning and experiencing from the inside. How am I feeling? So let's talk through. What are the most common symptoms that your clients experience or that you're observing or that you've seen in the research? What are the common. I mean, I usually, I think one of the top ones is probably fatigue, you know, feeling tired. But tell me what, talk us through that. What are the common symptoms that your clients are reporting?

Yeah, chronic fatigue is number one on the list. Absolutely. Chronic headaches.

Larynx issues, throat issues, constant.

Like, like a lump in the throat.

Feeling lump in the throat. Sometimes, you know, thyroid related nodules on thyroid and you know, thyroid symptoms. So also fatigue and Hashimoto's that goes with it. So I would say for any woman, if they're fatigued, number one for me is to test antibodies for Hashimoto's because.

As you and I know, we have an epidemic of low thyroid in women. But we both know that majority of it is actually autoimmune. Hashimoto's, not just low.

Majority is, yeah.

And a big chunk of these cases is actually triggered by infections. And there's Yersinia, there's H. Pylori, but there's ebv. And I've seen cases when we completely reverse engineered Hashimoto's because we focused, because the doctor was smart and tested everything.

The benefit of testing, I just want.

To say, like that's such a good point because how many people find out they may have low thyroid or maybe, maybe they find out they have Hashimoto's. They start in on a thyroid prescription dose, but compounded or any kind of replacement for thyroid, but then they stop there and they don't. But the key you're saying is if we keep asking why, like what triggered the autoimmunity? Because autoimmunity, what I know.

The autoimmunity, even if we have a inheritance, you know, a genetic tendency, it gets triggered by, I think of it as some sort of stress, you know, whether that's a psycho emotional stress or like you're saying it can be an infection as a stress that triggers the autoimmunity. And a lot of the studies then mention Epstein Barr virus as the stress that triggered the autoimmunity. Of course it can also be triggered by gluten, which is another stress, or there's so many that potential stresses. But when we can dig deeper and address the stress, then the autoimmunity can go away. And that relates back to your friend with ms, because Ms. Is an autoimmune condition that could have been triggered, like you were saying, could have been triggered by Epstein Barr virus as maybe one stress or many stresses. Right. Like most of us have multiple stresses. Because what I find is that Epstein Barr virus itself is more likely to become activated or reactivated when we are stressed. Right. Like when we're.

Would you say it's an opportunist? Always. Because we know 90, 95% of humans on the planet have this virus. I probably have it. You probably have it. You know, in case of Marlena, we live pretty close to the Chernobyl fallout. We were right there. But she and I had different. Different stress. Stress level, I would say, and different diets. Very different. You know, I. I can't say it's also a makeup. It's. And who knows? We will never know. And by the way, there was a very specific study Dr. Harley did that just a few years ago.

Mapping out. When you mentioned triggering. Mapping out a protein, a specific protein, EBNA2, that can go into the DNA part of your cell.

And code it for autoimmunity and turn on seven autoimmune disorders, including celiac.

Wow. It's like you start to go.

Okay, no wonder autoimmunity is rising. You know, the number of autoimmune conditions is increasing. Not only are more people getting or being diagnosed with autoimmunity, but we're realizing how many more different types of autoimmunity it can show up in different ways, whether it's going to affect the thyroid or celiac in the gut or Ms. In the nervous system and many, many others. So we see this trend toward autoimmunity, and I think people realizing that it can relate back to our stress exposures. And that's how that stress exposure sort of triggers Epstein Barr virus or gives Epstein Barr the opportunity to reactivate. And that the research is. I've read a lot of that research too, and it really is so eye opening. And you.

Very clean research. Yes.

So amazing. So when you help, because I know you've now created program to help people with managing Epstein Barr virus, which as we're talking about, can have such a ripple effect and you can make such positive difference. Yes. In terms of daily, like your fatigue or your joint pain or your headaches. But also if it could make a difference in terms of reversing autoimmunity or even saving your life, that's huge. And so the program you created is. Has so much potential for helping people. But talk us through a little bit. What do you do when you of all your work, what do you find? How do you help people with this and what do you include in your program?

So there's different people. People are on different part of the journey with ebv. Some people know that their chronic fatigue or brain fog or kind of cognitive decline and pain.

That it could be ebv or they know they have ebv. It's just been mismanaged and they've been in this for decades. There's some people that suspected because of the medical medium book. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Definitely that's a big following. But that's, you know, again, my job was to bridge the gap between that community and medical community because that's. There was nothing for everyone.

And so.

So it depends how much people realize now. First of all, if people do everything right and they don't improve, the body is supposed to heal, the body is supposed to do well when we provide what we need and take out the triggers that are detrimental. So if you clean up and you know, there's a lot of people that do everything and work so hard to feel better, that's the community where it's like a medical mystery. It's not budging. There's something we don't know. There's something we're not doing. And the interesting caveat also is the environmental exposure. Because the limited studies that we do have.

The suspicion is heavy metal exposure, radiation, WI fi technology, and then toxic modes, all these can really.

Kind of reinstigate the virus and make it very aggressive. And the same with poor nutritional status. If your nutritional status is sound and healthy, it immobilizes the virus. But if you start tanking and eating junk food, increasing NF kappa B because that junk food increases NF kappa B and that's what the virus uses to hijack it and replicate as well. Like there's studies on that. It's my book. So it's like the antiviral capacities and tools that we have in our hands are endless.

Well, that's like you're saying, hey, if we even just look at the things we're getting exposed to that are I would think of as other forms of stresses. But if we look at how can we avoid some of these stresses, then it allows our body to heal itself, to fend off this virus itself. So a lot of your work then, I presume, is about helping people to. To become More aware of the different stresses in their environment and have a shift and even help with their nutrition. So they get enough nutrition to help their own body prevent this virus from becoming active, would you say? Is that correct?

That is absolutely correct. So the nutrition is a backbone and people have incredible turn around with just that, understanding what they're doing and why. And it's actually accidentally the nutrition that I promote for anyone myself, you know, just like a long term solution system.

But because it's gonna be anti inflammatory.

It's gonna be, it's gonna be. And you know, you and I trained in this philosophy at Bastyr and thanks God because we have all these now therapeutic diets that people are taking long term. It's like, ah, wait, it's gonna backfire.

And so, and the thing is that.

We have environmental triggers that cause hormonal issues, cancer issues and autoimmunity issues. That's that across the board and environmental. And the viral infection is one of the side effect of all these exposures. And stress is number one. You keep saying stress and you are so versed in stress. And you're absolutely right. I remember I was at a nutrition conference and there were some scientists that worked with NASA.

On a project where one of the astronauts was in space for one year. They had a twin on the ground and they measured changes. And so it was fascinating. But one of the studies that I had found was that stress causes reactivation of the virus. And one of the studies was about astronauts in space that they have a higher likelihood to reactivate or reactivate.

It's so interesting that they follow that. That's so great.

Well, during the break, I run to one of the scientists, like, did you know. Because I, you know, this is what I do and I read that study and he looks at me and yeah, they get antiviral medication prophylactically because they know that like what? Wow.

Wow. It's so, so to them that's just like, of course we're gonna need fending off a virus if we're stressed.

I think about it and you know, you and I understand stressors differently. This is a prime community. They are so trained. But no matter what you do, the body is stressed by claustrophobia, lack of gravity, circadian rhythm is artificial. You know, food is very different and there's constant pressure and deadlines and you know, no matter who you are, these are physiological stressors. Yeah, you know, even, you know, we don't think about, oh, I didn't sleep very well last night. This is stress for human body. All that is stress. And so that's one part. So, you know, for example, we have challenges. And one of the free challenges I offer is walking people through what has the virus stolen from your life? Because some people are on disability, they can't work. They had to walk away from their jobs and livelihood. But then also to give people.

Permission for healing. And then they have to repeat after me, I can heal from ebv.

I have a quote from medical literature. This is a medical doctor, 2006, Dr. Flavin, EBV candy is treatable and reversible. And like, for people, it's like repeats. It's treatable and reversible. It's been done. I'm quoting a medical doctor. It's in medical literature.

There's a part of it that is the mindset and the belief. Right. That it's because of course we're, you know, we're going to be hesitant to put an effort in to making these changes and following this protocol. If we don't even think it's possible. But once you realize this is possible, we can. Your body knows how. This is a virus that our bodies deal with all the time. Your body knows how to manage.

Oh, yes, absolutely. You just nailed it on that. There is a know how. We just have to get out of the way. And out of the way means we're toxic. We're not. We're not protecting our body like animals. Still, you know, our, you know, they know what to eat, what to avoid. They know who they are. We kind of lost it.

We don't even know where the food comes from. We don't even understand the ingredients. And the food industry is benefiting from our ignorance. We don't know what we're eating. You think you eat corn? Let's say one of my patients was excited, okay? I bought frozen produce. Like, yeah, it wasn't organic. It was just one bag of peas and one bag of corn. It's like, okay, that's improvement for her.

She took a picture of the ingredients for me. Would you like to know?

They add stuff in there. You'd think it'd just be corn, but maybe they add stuff to it.

The first ingredient is the highest ingredient number one. Sugar ingredient number two. Corn ingredient number one. Sugar ingredient number one and number two piece. I didn't know this was done.

Why would they?

The food is not what you assume food is not the food. You have to really be like a detective and you have to. In order to maintain health and balance and provide what the body thinks it Will get. You have to actually take an effort and, and be a detective. You can't just rely on. This is food. You know, my grandmother ate the peas. No.

It'S not the same peas that your grandmother got from the garden.

Oh, it's so depleted.

And not only is it depleted, but now they're adding sugar. And sugar lowers our immunity, makes us susceptible. So you're getting, you think you're eating food, but you're getting something that has fewer nutrients with something that inhibits your immune system. It's like, no wonder this virus gets to activate.

Yes, yes. Because the green peas doesn't have the sweetness it would if the soil was nourished, if the nutrients were in the soil. Nutrients is depleted. Our topsoil is being depleted and dying. We're losing 74% of topsoil. I understand. Because it's been overworked with chemicals, so it's not nourished. So you're not getting the nutrients. And that also translates into less flavor. And so of course, you have to add sugar so that tastes like peace. And people are stuck on sugar and addicted, which is great because they will buy that bag again and again.

So really, people, people don't think about this, unfortunately. They just assume, you know, like organics is a fad. There's still that, you know, there's no science. Oh, there's plenty of science. I put it in the book because it's irritating when people just, you know, argue. There's no argument that DNA biodiversity of organism antioxidant makeup is so much higher if the soil hasn't been pesticide ridden for generations of plants, you know.

So anyway, what is your name of your book? So in case someone wants to really read some of these things that you're mentioning, like why is it important to choose organic? And what are the studies behind that? And what are the studies behind Epstein Barr virus and how to test for it? What is the name of your book? So they can go find it.

Yes, everything is in there.

Exactly.

EBV solution, Epstein Barr virus solution. Very simple. And it's on Amazon, so it's readily available.

That's so great. Because I think, especially, I mean, I always believe that when a person understands their body and what's going on to whatever degree they need, then it makes it so much more likely that they're going to be successful in the healing process. And so I want to encourage everyone, if you have that feeling like you want to learn more, then go and go into. This is a great resource to be able to learn More and that's only going to help you in your healing process. And I also, you know, want to point out that you know, just in what you're describing, you know, how, you know in your program, this is what you're doing is helping people to learn how to eat organic. Right. And how to make these different changes.

So you don't have to be alone in this. You can, there's help, there's. You can, you can even tell us more. So they, what happens in the program. It's online, right? So they can do it from home.

Yes. So, so people can go to ebv help. H e l p like helping.com simple website. And so you can click there, find the program there and so on. It's 10 weeks. We also have a community called EBV Heroes. So we have an EBV Hero manifesto you can print on that website, which is actually right there. My husband framed it for us right there.

Wow.

And.

We'Ve been doing that program for a while and we have a beautiful community.

On Facebook. So people are not alone anymore. And that's huge. That is because there are support groups and they're very depressing and really, you know, people are in groups like that. But these groups are not forward looking. They don't have solutions. So it's, you know, you, at certain point it can be detrimental being in a community like that because all the negativity and pain that people go through. But this one, we're actually moving forward. And so it's a 10 week program. It's actually eight weeks of material and there's one onboarding week and then one week at the end we celebrate graduate. We have strategies for future, how to prevent reactivations, what does it mean, what to do. And the program is, we have two, it's like I recommend doing one module a week. It's probably too much to consume because it's for life. You can do it again and again and again. But we have two modules on food and it doesn't matter where a person is on diet, you know, spectrum, what they eat, what they, they always can incorporate some things because I zoom out and explain the big picture and so they can, they have a lot of options there. It's really beautiful how simple things like that can turn things around. Then we have a very specific supplement protocol that I recommend the initial part of it from the get go, at the very beginning, I make it available and it's very predictable. So by the time we get to module four, which is supplement module, they have feedback and we can customize it and build on it, but the virus is predictable. So if you follow that initial protocol within three weeks and you're not budging, it's either not EBV or we're dealing with complications like CO infections, heavy metals, toxic mold and wi fi technology. In fact, we're going to do a challenge now. And this time the challenge for ebv, the free challenge, will be three days. All about EMF because it really, it really promotes reactivation. I see that there's a little bit of medical research, not enough, but there's something indicating that I've seen and I see it clinically. You know, I see it, I see it in our community and it makes a big difference. It's a little bit like this community's canaries in the mine. They are more susceptible to subtle energies and that's why they're sicker.

Yeah.

Sometimes people. I think that's a good point because sometimes people feel like, you know, why me? Or why maybe other people around them don't quite understand why they feel more tired or more likely to get a headache or, you know, and to understand that, you know, the people who have reactivated Epstein Barr virus are the ones who are more susceptible to these different exposures and stresses in the environment. So it makes sense why they're more likely to feel that way and to just some level of acceptance about themselves about that and knowing, hey, you may need to pay more attention to these details that maybe another person doesn't even realize.

Well, there's still. Where is a couple of layers or levels to this because it's kind of a blessing in disguise. So.

There is a quiz that I quiz my patients. I quiz them at the beginning. Are you a highly sensitive individual? There's a quizzing can take, you know, how do you react to subtle energies, EMF energies, other people's energies, and so on and so forth. And there is a makeup for that. And it oftentimes matches the community. But there's also the bucket. You know, the bucket is full. The body doesn't. The body needs so much more support to start to regenerate and combat that virus. So that's one thing on the physical realm, but the community, oftentimes we have a joke. Welcome to.

Overachiever Anonymous International Club.

Because people with chronic ebv, oftentimes they overextend. They don't say no. They help everyone. They just don't have, you know, it just doesn't end for them. They have to take care of themselves first. And sometimes these are the healers that are supposed to be doing healing modalities, they have the makeup of healers. And sometimes they know and sometimes they're in denial. Sometimes they have second, like this sixth sense.

And sometimes they have to really hit it on the head and get really sick in order to recognize that the corporate world, maybe that's not what they're here on the planet to do. And that can make you physically sick because there's lack of congruence physically. So it can get on those different levels depending who you are. Maybe it's just a bucket. It's just too much, too many plane travels. So too much radiation, you know, low iodine, no iodine in diet, thyroid going down. And then infection picked up. One kissing from somebody who is not sick. But you get sick because your bucket is so full. And so, you know, can be scenarios galore. But the. But I think, you know, some of the things that people learn in the program is we also have one whole module on spirituality and joy. And my last chapter in the book is Spirituality and Joy. Because that when you are in real dilterated joy, whatever it is, drawing horses was what I did when I was a kid. Just drawing horses for hours. Lock me in the room, you know, it didn't matter when time stops, if you can rekindle that and do that, that actually, that is the joy that turns off the stress response. Physiologically, you can't do both. You can't be half pregnant. You're either pregnant or not. Stress is on or not. You know, the chemicals go. It's these chemicals or these chemicals, right? The body just so.

Good point.

Sometimes joy is the fastest, simplest way. But it's the hardest also because people don't give themselves the luxury and permission to have joy. There's guilt attached and they don't remember. They don't remember what it was.

I had a patient because it's been so long since they maybe experienced that they allowed themselves.

I remember one of my patients, I said, what did you like when you were a little kid? I was a tomboy. I was climbing trees. I love being up in the trees. So I immediately gave her homework. A link from Nelson is his last name. He's a master.

Tree house builder. He has a program on television. He's a huge guy, you know, he's a baby boomer, huge guy. And when he maps out a tree house for a client, he's like a six year old in a toy store. He's all excited, he's drawing, he's surprising with this. He's gonna do special touches. This is joy.

Wow.

And that is joy.

I mean, to think, you know, that we, if we can each even just listening to this think to yourself, you know, and if you don't remember what you were drawn to as a child, maybe it takes a little time of meditation and inner journaling to find what is it that you really dreamed of or enjoyed when you were a child and then create that now to be able to experience that connection with yourself and that joy. But what I also hear you saying is that ebv, as much as it can seem like it's sort of the, this hyper focused thing to address, it's more like when you address Epstein Barr, it opens up and you end up just transforming your whole life and your whole future. Because it's addressing Epstein Barr means you're going to become more connected to yourself. You're going to start making active choices with your food and your environment and you're going to learn what your body needs in order to be healthy. And by the time you do that now you have this whole new future in front of you, right?

Yes. It's like a love affair finally with yourself and that makes you invincible and the virus cannot touch you. That's basically what it is, I think when people are very sick because you know the question that you're asking is how do humans heal when people are very sick, they don't see that they can't journal. It's like, what do I remember loving? I can't do it now. I can't do it now. I don't have the money in this. So I would ask any person that is compromised with health and when you feel hopeless is because it's overwhelming to think about what I love and what the joy is. But I can give my example. I always just take one step forward and if you just are open, always ask the universe lead me to the places and people and events so I can take next step closer to what I really love to do. And here on the San Juan Island, I always have that little notch. And when you have that little nudge, you know.

I don't have a capacity to throw away scraps of food here where we live on San Juan island and this is an island, so resources are scarce, you have to be more careful and so on. And so in a community Facebook group, it just bugs me. And I reached out and two people mentioned an animal sanctuary, that food scraps would be good. It's like, oh, I went on their website, I emailed through there and the rest is History.

Wow.

We adopted meaning. We kind of put a little money every month towards two retired horses. My husband one, and me one. And I also went by my gut feeling, which one. And, you know, I love horses, and I have not been exposed to them for decades because I was very allergic as a kid. I drew them and so forth. And here is this amazing old horse that caught my attention. And then I learned about her that she has so much arthritis, she can't even sleep on the ground. She has to stand. She's in pain. And so, long story short is every Sunday, I'm scrubbing her and brushing her and scratching her, and we're building relationship, and I'm making little pieces of apples so she can eat them. And.

And for me, I spent, I think two, three hours there yesterday, and it's like I feel so much joy. Everything is behind you. Just don't, you know, you are in the moment. You are helping the animal, and I'm around. It's like a dream come true. I cannot own a horse, you know, and the director just. He just opened the gate. First time we opened the gate, second. Voila. Walk in. And here I walk in, and I'm right there with the horse.

Wow, that's amazing. I love that story.

Through my heart Desire. Yes. So these things happen when you. When you just contemplate a possibility that magic is there, that the miracles are there, that there is a bigger reason you're here, there is a higher power, that there are connections, that your thoughts are floating out there and they're being caught somewhere. You're not. You're not. Not important. And there's. There's that. The heart's desire, the joy that come out of some. Something like this experience is. I told my husband, okay, now, even if we wanted to move out of the island, I'm not moving. This is my new family. I need to be there for her. She's old, and. And I need to just be there, you know, and build a relationship. And that makes me so happy. That's it. So, yeah, when people are very sick, these things go out of the. Completely out of your radar.

Well, you think it's. It's like, if I don't feel good, how can I possibly do anything? But what you're saying is sometimes if you just clarify what you really like, for you, it was. You just wanted to be able to interact with a horse, and then this possibility presented itself that you would have never even imagined if you had tried to go there first. And so sometimes just allowing that creative part of Our mind to speak to us, even if, and try to set aside our doubts, you know, and go.

Set aside the doubt, maybe something is possible. And I didn't think about horses. I mean, I love horses. I love it. I didn't think about let me find a horse because there wasn't a possibility. And I had never been in a sanctuary. And you know, so you don't have to actively think, this is what I want to do and plant that seed because you may not be sure. But if you just open the possibility, well.

Let me see the next step, that is the right step for me. Let me just be open. So if I have a nudge, I just take that nudge and let me see where it leads me. Because there is a bigger scheme, possibly pre planned, if we hear that nudge. And that's all. So you don't have to really know where it's going to take. It's like people say you can drive with two lights at night from one state to another. You don't see the whole road, you just have those little lights in front of you. Sometimes you're not supposed to know that you're gonna arrive there, right?

Yes. It's so true. And I sometimes use this similar analogy with healing process because sometimes people feel afraid because it feels like you're in a dark room with no lights and you're like, I don't know which way to go or what to do. But even having like say your book or your program, it gives you one light here, another light here, so then you can know you're on a path and you're right, you don't have. Sometimes we want to know every step or we want to make sure we're getting to point B, but we can't determine that. All we can do is find some light, some resources, and then go one step at a time to guide us, you know, and trust that that process is going to guide us where, where we, where we want to go or where we need to go.

I have to say, it always works. Ever since I was a teenager, pre teenager in Poland. I'm from a small town in Poland. What do I know? How did I, how did I arrive here? Where I am? It's, you know, it's like a bad movie. It's not supposed to happen. But yes, it happens all the time. As one of my mentors says, miracles are to be expected. They happen all the time. You just have to say, okay, I am getting a miracle and it's happening, it's coming. And just having that leap of faith. Like you say, just trust, because it's just opening that door. Opening that door and trusting. That's why when I do the challenge, I open that door for possibility and permission to heal, that it's possible that you can, you know, so people can actually conceptualize that. Because when you're in pain, you just end up. You're stuck.

I think, you know, what you and I do, it's not just to fix. It's to bring joy to this planet and to help people realize that they have gifts that they can share, that they can help other parts of the planet heal too. I think ultimately this is why we're here. Yeah.

Thank you for saying that. And I feel that way too. Like then gives ourselves a purpose and sharing this passion and being able to guide people in that healing process.

Thank you again so much, Dr. Kasha, for being here and for sharing your wisdom and really helping people to know that healing Epstein Barr is possible and that you've created resources to help them. They can again share how to find you and how to reach out to you for more help.

Well, I have. I have a. The main website is my name Kashacleins.com that has tons of stuff, recipes, all kinds of things for health.

I want to spell it for them. It's K A S I A is Kasia. And then kines is K I N E S. Correct?

Correct. Correct. Yes. Okay, so that's before EBV virus, but specifically for EBV is www.ebv h e l p dot com.

Okay.

So that has a lot of resources and it explains the program and different options that we have. And then there's book on Amazon, EBV solution, but it's also linked there on the website so you can get free gifts.

Oh, my God. Thank you so much. I'm just. I'm so grateful for what you've studied and how you followed your passion to create this, to help people. I'm grateful for you being here to share it with us today. So thank you.

Oh, my pleasure. And I'm grateful for your advocacy for the other virus, the papillomavirus and what you're doing and the stress. And we're just starting. We're going to have a supplement protocol and we're going to relaunch clinician program, training program. We just want everybody covered. And then finally, the concept of medicine will shift and the virus will be like, oh, yeah, we know how to take care of it. It's not a big deal. It's not a life sentence. It's going to be amazing. So I'm already projecting and dreaming.

Thank you. Oh my gosh, I love it. It'll help too.

It makes it so much better to have that positive mindset, looking forward, you know, and what's possible. So thank you for sharing that.

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