Beyond Testosterone, Optimizing Men’s Health with Dr. Gapin | How Humans Heal Podcast

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donni Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for listening in today. I'm very excited to introduce you to Dr. Tracy Gapen, who is a urologist. He's trained as a urologist and has been practicing for over 20 years. And he has now and is now transitioning to really a lot of health optimization for men. And so I'm really excited to talk to him about everything hormones related to men's health and helping men feel their best. So thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Gapen.

Absolutely. Glad to be here.

So tell us what got you started in this direction of helping in working in urology and helping men with their health?

Sure. Yeah. So great question. I've been in urology now for about 22 years now, practicing urology. I got excited about men's health very, very early on, actually. You know, I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was a kid. I don't really know why I wanted to be a doctor, but I knew it from third grade and I always had a focus toward men's health and that could probably go back to my childhood and psychological. You can do some diving, I guess, if you wanted to. But nonetheless, I knew I wanted to do men's health, but as a urologist, you know, I was very much stuck in the typical disease care model that we are trained in here in the US where, you know, the pharmaceutical industry rul and in medical school, we're taught really which pill to treat which ill sort of thing. About five, six years ago or so, I started having my own health challenges where I felt like crap. I was overweight, I was not sleeping well, I wasn't taking care of myself. We had a newborn at home and I was busy juggling my career and my family was eating like crap, was not exercising at all, taking no supplements and wasn't sleeping. High stress. And my wife pushed me to go see a doctor for the first time for my first physical ever. Here I am.

Oh, my gosh. For your first ever.

Oh, yeah.

We tend to sort of forget ourselves on the. We're terrible.

Yeah.

This is what we do all day. Right, so exactly.

We tend to neglect ourselves and self care for the sake of our patients. And that's what I was doing. My career and my practice was first and foremost. So I go to see a doctor for the first time ever, and it's a very humbling, terrifying experience to be sitting there on the table. And in my book, Mel 2.0 that I just released recently, I talk about this experience sitting on this exam table with this paper thin gown covering you. And it's a very vulnerable feeling to be on the other side of things. So I go through the full exam, prostate exam and labs and this and that and come to find out I was 25 pounds overweight at the time. My cholesterol was sky high. My creatinine, which for the listeners is a measure of kidney function, was poor. It was elevated. And I was suddenly faced with my own mortality. And it really changes your perspective as a provider, as a physician, when you're on the other side and you're suddenly having to take charge of your health. So I say, okay, what do I do? And he's like, well, you need to exercise more and eat some more vegetables and maybe take a statin. And I was kind of just shocked. I just kind of sat there and I left that day terrified from my own health and longevity, but also for the fact that this primary care provider had really nothing to offer me in terms of health optimization, in terms of promoting longevity and health and anti aging.

And it was all focused on disease. And here's a statin and exercise and vegetables, and statin was all he had. What was worse, though, Donny, and this is very humbling to admit myself, is that as a urologist, as a men's health expert with at that time almost 20 years of experience, I didn't freaking know what to do either. And if I had a guy in front of me, I would tell you, yeah, go eat more vegetables, exercise, sleep more. I don't know. And so that really shifted everything for me. It was a mindset shift at that point that as your podcast all about healing to heal myself, I had to suddenly take a rooted interest in learning how do I promotenot just treat disease. I treat prostate cancer every day. Still to this day, I treat prostate cancer and kidney stones and enlarged prostate and urinary infections and all kinds of urologic diseases. But when it comes to actually promoting health, I realized through my own personal experience how terrible our healthcare system, and I call it disease care, not healthcare, is at helping men. That's when I went on my quest and I learned about epigenetics and how to take a very personalized approach to optimizing health. And I learned about functional medicine. I learned about the science of anti aging and the nine hallmarks of aging and how to promote longevity. And I found peptide therapy, which is amazing. And I learned how to really transform my own approach to health for myself personally. And that has carried over to how I work with men. And that's become a passion of mine over the last five years.

I think that's awesome. And it's so needed because when I have men reach out to me to help them with their health, which.

Is eye opening to realize, as you're mentioning, how much men.

I think in our culture, in our society, I mean, this happens for men and women, but especially from a men's perspective, a lot of times it's, you know, you got to work, you got to like take care of everyone.

And you are supposed to be able to handle all that. Right. It's almost this. I'm this invincible person that's gonna just power through and it's not gonna happen to me. It's not, you know, I'm not gonna. I'm. Anything that comes up, I'm gonna have to just get through of the right. This is this thing that's kind of put on men and this role that you're supposed to play. And at a certain point when your health starts showing something different, I can imagine that's what you experience was like, wait a minute, I'm in a human body here and my human body is going to get affected by working hard and not getting enough recovery time. And as you mentioned, epigenetics, I'd love to, we can dive more into that, but I think that's really powerful for men to hear from your perspective as a doctor, like, okay, we're not invincible. Okay. We do have to take care of our health. If we want to be able to keep going forward helping ourselves and our family, we're going to have to take time to take care of our health and look at our diet and look at our exercise and look at our sleep in order to make that happen. And there's not a specialty for that. Like, if you look at all the specialties of medicine, there's not a specialty for that, you know, except for what you're creating. You know, you're really creating this new specialty of men's health optimization in medicine.

Yeah, you're right. It's been considered a weakness or a vulnerability to actually practice self care and to, you know, get off the.

Rat race.

And it's interesting. What brings men in finally is not the weight gain, not the low energy, not the feeling like crap and not sleeping well. It's when the sexual function starts to decline.

It's fascinating how that is what finally gets their attention. And as we know, or for the listeners, when a man starts to have issues with sexual function, whether it's erectile dysfunction, whether it's low libido, that's often a sign of significant underlying problems and that could be very closely tied to cardiovascular disease. It's a warning flag for a lot of guys who come in with that. We have to take what I call a systems based approach, which is looking at the body as multiple systems that interconnect together. But that's a warning flag. There are big problems.

So I'm taking this approach now of helping men go beyond testosterone. They come in and they think testosterone is the answer. Just give me my shot of testosterone so I can get out of here. My theme is going beyond testosterone because if we're going to optimize men's health, testosterone only gets you maybe 10% there. There's so much else, and a lot of it is related to stress and sleep and other hormone issues like thyroid and DHEA and melatonin and vitamin D. And so there are all these other puzzle pieces. When I give talks, I have this image of multiple puzzle pieces together and, and each of them are important aspects of health. And if you neglect any one of them, you're missing the bigger picture. You're not going to succeed.

Yeah, that's. It's such a good point. It's. Well, first of all, just that it makes sense then as a urologist, that that's why men end up in your office, because they're like, what's going on here? Why am I, why are things not working right? And it ends up being this, this red flag or this indicator of overall imbalance in throughout the body. And testosterone can be amazing. And we can talk about that more. I mean, of course, it's such an important hormone for both men and women. And at the same time, if we just try to rely on testosterone as a quick fix, it's not really solving why is the testosterone low? So let's talk that through. What is it that, you know, what causes testosterone levels to drop?

Yeah, great question. So we're definitely seeing a dramatic decline in levels. There have been three fairly large longitudinal studies, one here in the US and one Sweden and one in Finland, that have all shown very Similar curves of about 30% decline in testosterone levels over the last 30 years. So that means a 50 year old guy today has a testosterone level about 30% lower than a 50 year old guy 30 years ago.

Isn't that shocking?

It really is. And if we don't do something about this, and interestingly, the fertility rates are dropping at a similar rate. Another study has shown fertility, sperm count and sperm motility is down by about 30% as well. So I believe that is due to an effect on the testicular function itself. And so I really believe strongly that if we don't do something in the next 20 years, our entire male population will be impotent and infertile. So it's a scary thing. So back to your question, what's causing it? There are a lot of causes. There's no one simple answer. Because certainly look at the western diet with high omega 6 polyunsaturated fats. We can look at the high sugar content, all the processed foods, the trans fats. But I feel the biggest culprit here is endocrine disruptors. And unfortunately not, not nearly enough focus is on endocrine disruptors. So endocrine disruptors for the listeners are chemicals, toxicants, any kind of environmental exposure that affects hormone or endocrine function. Endocrine disruptors can cause low hormones such as low testosterone. They can cause autoimmune disease, obesity, infertility. They can cause diabetes and insulin resistance and cancer. There's a great book by Anthony J. Called Estrogeneration which really emphasizes how these chemicals in our environment are crushing our health. I really focus on the aspects that relate to what you asked, which is testosterone level. So I'll give you some examples here. One, Plastics. So plastics in our plastic water bottles, for example, plastics are made from BPA or bisphenol A. And phthalates. Phthalates are what makes plastic bendy and you're able to see through it. And these chemicals have clearly been shown to have a profound effect on testosterone levels. We know that there are chemicals in our foods. So the crops here in the US are sprayed with atrazine. Especially in the Midwest, corn and wheat crops are sprayed with atrazine. Atrazine is banned in Europe, but it's still legal here in the US and it's been shown to crush hormone levels, specifically testosterone. There was a pretty powerful study that looked at frogs and they exposed these frogs to very low levels of atrazine. I think it was like 20 nanograms per milliliter of atrazine. It turned these male Frogs into female frogs that actually laid eggs and reproduced.

No way.

And our drinking water has exponentially higher levels of atrazine than what was exposed to those frogs. So our crops are getting sprayed with it. These chemicals are leaching into our drinking water. We're eating them in the foods that we're eating as well. And it's causing a profound effect on hormone levels. Also, things like personal care products like deodorant and soaps and shampoos and laundry detergents and sunscreen, they're all loaded with chemicals as well, like parabens and phthalates and anything that's scented. All these chemicals can crush testosterone. So it's really bad being aware of these environmental exposures, doing everything we can to mitigate our exposure, turning on our detox pathways, our phase two detox pathways in the liver to help protect us from these.

Oh, my gosh. It's such a good point. And I think especially because sometimes we're. I know a lot of times people will say to me, well, is a little bit of plastic going to be that big a deal? Is it that big a deal to choose organic? But when you hear what you're saying, saying it's like, yeah, it's a big deal because it adds up. The plastic exposure, the chemical exposure adds up. It's important to get filtered water. I'm assuming that's probably what you're drinking right there.

Yeah. So stainless steel water bottle with filtered water. Absolutely. Every time. Yeah.

Because it's. It's gonna affect the hormones. And if you're, you know, you're. What you do on a daily basis is going to affect your testosterone in decades from now. So it's powerful, right? It's so powerful. Yeah. And, you know, I think that's. Thank you for sharing that. That's such an important point. And I also makes me think of the men that I've helped who, for example, we're using different approaches and medications to help with hair loss. You know, so sometimes men are in this situation where they're experiencing hair loss, so then they're trying to inhibit that hair loss, but these medications end up disrupting their hormones more.

Sure.

Have you seen that, too?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There's something called post finasteride syndrome. Propecia is very commonly prescribed for hair loss, and finasteride is actually used in higher doses for men with enlarged prostates as well. There's something called post finasteride syndrome. Pft. Excuse me. It is. Yeah. And it causes permanent, irreversible issues with testosterone function as well as sexual function.

So.

So it's a big deal.

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Yeah.

Yeah, I've helped some of the patients I've helped. It's been, you know, months and years of helping their hormones and their adrenal glands recover. And it just, I like to bring awareness to that because again, it's something where in the moment you're not thinking of these things, you know, in the moment you're like, I'm just trying to get through the day. I'm trying to be looking handsome and you know, I don't want to lose my hair. But in the long run, these things are really, really a big issue. And it's worth it to think it through and to know that there's help if you're starting to notice. Right. If you're starting to notice these changes, there's a lot we can do to help. So talk us through it because this maybe brings us to this concept of epigenetics, which I love to talk about because there's so much of the time where we think, oh, it's just my genetics, as if my genetics is my destiny. And what we know is that genetics play a role, but it's only a small percentage of it. It's really a matter of some of these factors you've been mentioning, our environment and our stress exposure that turns on our genetic tendencies. And so epigenetics, meaning we can have some power in our hands to shift our, what's going, what's being predisposed in our genetics. Right. Talk us through what, your perspective on that.

Absolutely. Sure. Yeah. So epigenetics literally means above the genes and what we're talking about here is the fact that we all have a DNA sequence which is a code of life that we got from our parents. You know, half of the lateral rung is from our mom, half is from our dad, and comes together to make this beautiful genetic code. That code is what is consistent in every cell in our body, the exact same genetic code. But you wonder, why do some cells become hair? Why do some cells become skin cells? All that becomes liver, becomes bone, becomes a nerve cell. And it's because genes are turned on and off by different factors. Environmental factors, growth factors, surrounding cells, et cetera. Epigenetics is really the science that we now understand of how genes can get turned on and turned off by various factors. I'll give you an example. There are genes. The APOE gene is a commonly discussed gene that's related to risk of cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer's disease. People who have a certain variant of this APOE gene are at higher risk of having early onset cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer's disease. But we now know that if you have low saturated fat intake, you can actually prevent that. You can reduce that risk, specifically by knowing if you have that particular variant of the APOE gene. There are genes related to how our body processes carbohydrates and obesity. And by understanding these genes and understanding how our nutrition can affect the expression of these genes, we can understand how we can lose weight, for example, how we can burn fat better. There are genes related to our detox function, like, for example, glutathione and catalase and superoxide dismutase. All these enzymes, which are important for our body to process the toxins I was just talking about those enzymes are turned on and turned off by certain environmental factors or by certain supplements or certain activities. And understanding your deficiencies, understanding your genetics, that suggest, hey, I might have a glutathione enzyme that may not be functioning as well as it could be. There are things we can do to help turn that gene on or up, regulate it. And that is how you apply epigenetics to real life. So it's using the genetic information, leveraging that to make real, daily, actionable decisions.

I love it, and I love that it really.

Gives us the knowledge that you could start doing, you start making changes in your life today. You know, like, I think sometimes people feel like, oh, I put in all these years of being hard on my body, I might as well just give up now. But no, like you, you know, our genes and our bodies are so responsive, you can start making these changes any Moment in time. And it's going to have a positive influence on your health because you can, you know, your body is going to respond to those changes. And so it means, you know, even if you've been experiencing some of these things you mentioned, you know, if it's weight gain or even if it's prostate cancer, you know, we can, we can help make changes to help shift the way things are happening in your body.

Absolutely, yeah. It's understanding the incredible power that our lifestyle and environment have on our health. What we eat, how we move, even how we breathe and how we think actually does affect genetic expression. A great study showed that yoga, something as simple as yoga, something as simple as meditation, Meditation can actually turn on genes. It's fascinating. Just simply thinking and breathing turns on genes. And the studies that actually scientifically show this. So there's amazing power in epigenetics.

It's really true. And perhaps one of my. I know we have this common interest in something called peptide therapy, which really is so awesome because it's, I think, one of the only approaches that really you can take in a supplement form or injection form that really helps shift the way the genes are expressing. Like so many supplements we take, you know, it's maybe antioxidant and, you know, we can do immune supportive herbs and so on. But these, the peptide therapy is so brilliant in this concept of being able to actually go in and shift the signaling from within the cells. So I think of it almost like hitting the reset button so that the cell can go back to optimal functioning. But I'd love to hear more about your experience with peptide therapy.

Yeah, absolutely. We definitely share a common love for peptides. I can tell. So peptides are simply amazing. I always started with that. They're simply amazing at the amazing precision approach they have to various aspects of health. Peptides for the listeners are simply chains of amino acids, nothing more than a short chain of amino acids, a short protein, if you will. And what's amazing about peptides is they are signaling molecules that your body already recognizes. You know, Insulin, back in 1921, was the very first peptide ever recognized or discovered. And insulin is a peptide. And so these peptides have amazing ability to have very specific functions by its effect through epigenetics on cellular efficiency, cellular function, and affecting gene expression. So there are peptides that are related to improving cognitive function. There are peptides related to weight loss, to building muscle and burning fat and sleeping better. There are peptides for anxiety. There are peptides for immune function. I've done several Peptides in the past on my experience when I had Covid back in March and April. And I use a combination of peptides including thymosin alpha, which was amazing for me. And these peptides help boost the T cell function which is important for your body's response to and ability to fight Covid. I'm being very careful not telling people to treat yourself with thymus and Alpha. For me it was very effective and there's definitely value there.

But the key is there are tons of peptides that have very specific function, whether it's musculoskeletal repair, whether it's gut health, whether it's burning fat, whether it's sleeping better that we can use very precisely and your body recognize these signals. And what's amazing is there are very minimal if any side effects from most peptides.

Yeah, I think and it's these have been, you know, well researched starting in Russia that from what I know over 50 years ago.

And it's, it's, yeah, it's I think a real opportunity for as you said, a way to help, you know, help your body recover from stress. Because that's the thing, it's you know, ultimately stress in some form, whether it's emotional stress or environmental toxin, as a stress or diet as a stress that that shifts our, our cells into under functioning or dysfunction. And these other steps we're talking about, they can reverse that, they can turn it back into an optimally functioning DNA and cells. And the peptides, you know, haven't really, you know, really offer a good opportunity there to help with that. And I agree with you.

They'Re really powerful and I've seen big differences with them as well.

So that's wonderful. Now is so as you shift from your kind of standard urology practice to more and more of this health optimization. Talk us through what that looks like and two, maybe share a little more about your book. I love the name male 2.0, but talk us through that and what is there anything else that men should know about what that looks like? What does it look like to meet with someone who's going to help with compromisation in that way?

Yeah, sure. So male 2.0 is the concept that took me years to come to. It's the concept of really changing our approach to men's health. The old approach, male 1.0 was reactive. We awaited disease to set in and then we treated that disease. It was one size fits all model. It was using pharmaceutical drugs, it was reliant on medications and it was really following whatever the latest trends are the latest diet trend and really just kind of following the herd and one size fits all model I think is the best way to really summarize that Mel 2.0 was very proactive. It's taking charge of your health. It's deciding that you're not going to wait for disease to set in. You're going to do everything you can to prevent it. We're going to not rely on pharmaceuticals. We're going to take a very personalized precision approach using your genetics, understanding your genetics, and using epigenetics, again, lifestyle factors, environmental factors, to take a very personalized precision approach to health, using peptides where necessary, as kind of the icing on top of as well. So male 2.0 is this whole concept of men's health optimization that has really not been out there before.

Male 2.0 is an acronym as well. So M is mindset is aging and hormones, L is lifestyle and E is environmental exposures. And I use this acronym as a way to help men really focus on what is important. Because there's so much noise out there, they don't know what to do. They've heard I should do keto or I should do paleo or I should do fasting or I should do this or that or I should be doing crossfit and what do I do? And guys come in and it's the six words I hear every day, just tell me what to do. And so.

The acronym male male helps kind of frame the approach to optimizing men's health. So mindset, we look at eliminating limiting beliefs. So a lot of guys think, well, hey, I can't change. This is how I am, this is how I'm going to be. This is who I am. It's a lot of self defeating mindset that prevents them from becoming their true limitless self. I focus on what is your why, why are you here, what's your purpose and living with intention so that everything you do is in alignment. You know, for me, my kids are everything. And so everything I do is in alignment with my passion and love and everything I have for my kids. It's about becoming stress resilient and doing things to help minimize our stress. So proper breathing. People think you know how to breathe. Most people don't know how to breathe. Believe it or not, you know that most people don't know that.

True. And it's, it's so hard when we're, we're, we have so much on our to do list every day. It just, it feels like how Am I going to stop and just take a breath or, or it feels like I'm being lazy or something, you know, so it's like, okay, let's just, while you're listening here to us, everybody just take a nice breath and feel what that feels like. It's amazing, right, how it we know it signals into our nervous system. If you're wanting to know how can you start to send different signals into your body and your nervous system? Taking a deep breath is one of the best ways to do it. I mean, tell me if you agree with me, but it's like just taking a deep breath already you're signaling and telling your nervous system to go into a parasympathetic mode. To rest and digest and recover is key.

That's right. That's right. I completely agree. And you know, breathing through your nose is incredibly important. People tend to be mouth breathers and they tend to over breathe. So the book Oxygen Advantage is an amazing book talking about breathing through your nose, slowing down your breath as well. Meditation is amazingly powerful at it as well. I strongly recommend that people track their data and this ties into stress because heart rate variability is a biometric data point that you can track. You know, I wear either a garment or a bio strap or an aura ring or all three sometimes. And tracking HRV allows you to understand how your lifestyle is affecting your stress levels, your physiologic stress, and helps you really use that data, leverage it to make real time decisions. So that's all around. Mindset A is the aging and hormone section that I get most excited about talking about hormones, you know, not just testosterone, but also thyroid and melatonin, dhea, estrogen, melatonin, they're all important.

Then they're all communicating to each other.

It's like a symphony. It's like a symphony of hormones. That's right. This is the area where I also look at cellular efficiency, mitochondrial function, autophagy and, and senescent cells and all these kind of fun scientific things that guys just say, just tell me what to do, doc, because it could be complicated. But we do understand the hallmarks of aging and that helps us know how to actually reverse it. And we now understand that aging is a disease that can be overcome and reversed.

Amazing, right?

Really fun stuff. So that's aging, Ella's lifestyle, where obviously nutrition and fitness and sleep are super important. I won't spend time diving into nutrition and fitness. Most people know all that stuff other than to emphasize for fitness. Most guys do not tend to do enough exercise and they don't tend to do enough variety. So it's very important. Four things. You got to be doing enough endurance or aerobic strength, interval training and stretching. And it's very important that guys get all four of those. Guys tend to just do one or two of those four. Very important they do all four of those aspects of fitness. Fitness sleep, of everything we're talking about. Sleep is probably the biggest aspect of men's health that we don't ever have time to talk about. But it's actually the biggest problem that all guys have. Trouble sleeping and poor sleep, it lowers your testosterone, it raises cortisol, it slows your metabolism, it affects your mood and mindset and focus, makes you gain weight. It has such a dramatic effect on health.

So true. And it seems like it's a thing. We end up going, oh, I'm going to. I'll sleep when I die, people.

Yeah, it's like, no, we really. There's so much good stuff that happens when we sleep.

Yes, yes. My personal trainer, who kills me every time I work out with him, we talk about this a lot. And he sleeps four hours a night and he swears he's fine. I'm like, dude, you're not fine. That's not okay. So that's a battle I'll have to keep fighting. But the value of sleep. And again, it comes back to tracking your data. So the clients I work with, they all have devices to track it because a lot of people think they're sleeping just fine. But when you look at the actual data, you may not be sleeping as well as you think you are from a quality perspective. Not just the number of hours, but how much deep sleep and REM sleep are you getting? So tracking data is so important.

Well, I love that. Bringing it back to. Because it puts it right in front of you. When you're tracking it and you see it, it becomes real. Otherwise, it's this kind of like, far off thing. I'm going to get a physical exam once a year. And that's supposed to be your healthcare? No, like, you need to be, like, keeping track on a daily basis. So you really know what your health is up to all the time.

Yeah, exactly. I'll give you an example of how to apply that to real life. I had a guy, a client of mine, Tommy, who has a Garmin, and we look at his data and for some reason, every Friday, his heart rate variability, which again is a sign of physiologic stress, was low, which means he had higher stress levels that day. And we weren't really sure why. We're like, what the hell's going on here? We did a deep dive into his lifestyle. And what are you doing the day before Thursday? Are you overtraining? Are you not sleeping? He had date night every Thursday night with his wife. And what would he do? Go out and have a couple glasses of wine? That was the only night he drank.

Oh, interesting.

And the dramatic effect in his heart rate variability was noticeable. Another guy, Mike, who he had markedly elevated HRV levels. He wears an armor ring. And we were able to go through his data and see that he was actually over training. He was actually working out too much.

That's possible too. Yeah. You know, they're so much wanting to help out their health that they're overdoing it. And there's such a thing as something that's good for us, becoming a stress.

Yeah. I mean, the hormetic effect is important to a certain point and then you could overdo it. And so using and understanding the data is so critical because you can really optimize your lifestyle by understanding how it's affecting your physiology. Then finally, E is environmental exposures again. We talked a lot about endocrine disruptors. I also put in here emphasis on immune, fungal and on gut health, which is really our environment as well.

Yeah.

And so that's the male 2.0 protocol. It's the male approach to optimizing men's health. And that's my book.

Oh, my gosh, I love it. And it sounds like you really simplified it in a way where, you know, you can take in the information and then kind of really have it in your mind and implement it in a way where it can be effective. And oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing about that. How if someone wants to find out more or be in touch with you, how best to get in contact. Sure.

Thanks so much. My website is Dr. Trtracygappen.com and you're welcome to reach out to me there. I also have an offer to your listeners. Mel 2.0, my book. I am offering it for free if you'll just cover shipping and you can get that@drtracygappen.com limitless.

Okay. And Gap. And just to be clear, anyone who's listening is G A P like Peter I N. So it's D R G.

A P I N. It's actually D R Tracy. T R A c y Gavin. G-A P I N dot com.

Okay, got it. And then Limitless, Limitless to get the free book. Oh, well, limitless sounds pretty good.

That's right. Who doesn't want the limitless pill?

Exactly. I mean, that's the thing, is we kind of are a lot of times hoping for the magic pill. What is this thing that's going to turn back time and make me feel like I did 20 years ago? But I think that you know what the answer is. What you're describing today and in your book is really.

Making that mindset shift where you realize, hey, there's so much I can do to shift my health if I want to be well enough to do the things I enjoy. Like you said, like being with your children or being with your family, or maybe there's other things for your goals. If you want to be feeling your best to accomplish those things, then all of a sudden your health becomes really important and there are things you can do that make a difference. So. Oh, my gosh, I love this message for men.

Thank you. Absolutely.

Yeah. So, all right. Well, thank you. And I'm looking forward to talking to you more soon.

You got it. Donni. Thanks so much.

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