Gut Health for Kids: Empowering the Next Generation

Hi, and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donni Wilson, and today I'm excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague, Dr. Elisa Song. She is an integrative pediatrician. So she specializes in helping children and families, and she trained as a medical doctor at Stanford, nyu, ucsf, and then became an integrative practitioner and has helped so many people with her website and her book, both called Healthy Kids, Happy Kids. Thank you so much for being with me today, Elisa.

Oh, I'm so excited, Donnie. It's just. It's always so fun to talk with you, and now I get to see you in person more often, too, so.

Yes, yes. Even though. Yeah, because it's funny because we kind of changed coast. You spent a lot of your life in New York, and now. Now you're mostly on the west coast, but. And I was mostly on the west coast, and now I'm on the East Coast. I love that. I love that we have that in common. And I love that we have this common passion about helping people with natural approaches and, like, how to prevent health issues. Tell us more, if you don't mind. Like, what is it that opened your mind up to this whole different view of pediatrics? Because that wasn't how you were trained originally in medical school, right?

You know, it's not how I was trained, but it's. It's why I wanted to go to medical school. And it's. It's, you know, way back in, when I was in college, I actually had no intention of being a doctor because my mom was a doctor. My mom was an OB gyn. And I just saw, I mean, how hard she worked and the life. And, you know, that's. That I didn't realize that all doctors don't get up at all hours of the night to deliver babies and are on call all the time like that. But that's what I knew of being a doctor. And I was like, yeah, I don't think that's the life for me. And I also really. But I also knew I really want to work with kids. And so my goal, my thought. When I went to college, I actually took the LSATs and applied to law school. I was going to be, you know, a public policy children's rights advocate. And I went along the whole path until somewhere in my junior year, I was walking, you know, on campus, and I saw this flyer for the American Holistic Medical association conference. And this is back in the late 80s, right? So, I mean, this is a. I mean, before. Before it was really even called Holistic medicine. It was called alternative medicine. Right? And so I'm like, what is this? So I actually, for whatever. Whatever took hold of me. I mean, it was the right. Right time for me. And I took myself. I drove myself down to the Santa Clara Convention center, and I mean, my mind was just blown. I just, I. I heard from folks who were just starting to get known at that time, so. Andrew Weil, Deepak Chopra, Joan Borisenko. And I remember I called my mom after that. I said, hey, mom, I think I know what I want to do. I want to become a naturopathic doctor. And she was like, what's that?

Right, right.

She never heard of it. Right.

Really? No, I. I mean, I remember that time period, too, because I was coming through college around the same time, and it's like, what. What is that? What are you talking about?

Yeah, and so that, you know, and. And I was like, I think. I think I want to go to best year. And that was. I mean, she. Nobody discouraged me. But it also wasn't like, oh, yeah, you should do that. Right? So. And so I remember being told by multiple people, well, maybe you want to go to, like, regular medical school first. And so that's how I ended up in medical school. But I always was interested, even in medical school. I, you know, I helped kind of in our school start up the holistic medical, you know, medical students group. And even during residency at ucsf, I created an elective on, quote, alternative treatments for juvenile arthritis and was able to go around to different offices in San Francisco and visit chiropractors and acupuncturists and, you know, osteopaths and. And just really see all the different ways that. That. That we can heal, that you know, what healing means. And so it's always been a part of what I want to do. And when I opened up my practice in 2004, I mean, this is like 20 years now. It was as an integrative, functional medicine, pediatric practice. So I wouldn't practice any other way. This is. This is. This is.

This is who you are.

This is who I am. So, yes, I joked with my kids, I said, look, if something happens, and for whatever reason, I can't practice medicine in this way anymore. You know, I'll open up a restaurant or like a fun, fun boutique, right? But. But I wouldn't. I wouldn't go back to practicing in a conventional way. You know, Like, I was like, I did in residency in med school.

Well, and I think this explains a lot about how you really show up for people because what I see in observing you is that you're an educator. You're. You really show up as like a very compassionate, caring, knowledgeable person for people to trust and to help them navigate some of these difficult situations with children's health.

I mean, that really, it really is about education and empowerment. And, you know, we've, we've just seen, you know, and I think it's.

There. I always tell parents and kids, look, there is a time and a place for most things, you know, even things like, you know, antibiotics and steroids, which we know, um, can really have lots of long downstream effects if we don't know how to mitigate those effects. So, so that's where the integrated piece comes in. Just knowing, okay, there is a time for pharmaceuticals. But now we know some of the unintended consequences of things like antibiotics to a child and infants developing gut microbiome and their future immune health and their future mental health. So how can we then integrate some of our more, more natural, holistic modalities to, you know, heal and, and really help kids thrive? And how about even you know, in the first place, understanding, trying to figure out some of the root causes of what's going on? So we could even prevent the possible need for heavy duty pharmaceuticals or prevent a diagnosis from even ever happening, whether it's, you know, eczema or ADHD or whatever it is.

Yeah, I think that more and more parents are thinking that way. I think that from what I hear, even the parents that I work with, you know, I'm hearing more and more that they are thinking of this in terms of prevention. And it is such an amazing opportunity. Right. Like, how much would you say that what, how, what we eat and what we, what medications we take and what we're exposed to in our childhood has influenced the rest of our lives? Right. So it's this opportunity to really establish a person's health long term.

I mean, it's, it absolutely is that, Dani. It's, it's a. I mean, we have this golden opportunity, you know, as, as pediatricians or family practice docs, like caring for these, these babies, these infants, you know, from the time they're born to really influence and shape how their future health develops. It's an, it's an opportunity that isn't tapped into enough in the conventional pediatric world. And it's not, I mean, it's really, you know, through no fault of pediatricians, you know, own, you know, I, I spent all of this additional outside, you know, non medical school, non residency time really diving into other modalities in functional medicine, how to use homeopathy and do acupuncture and all these AM tools that we have, but it's simply not taught in medical school. And first the awareness has to come that, that we can have this, you know, kind of conventional, you know, Western traditional approach, but also learn how to either incorporate some of these other tools into our practices or understand when the appropriate time is to refer to our partners. Right in. And our allied health partners. And so, you know, the knowledge is slowly coming. I mean, just even for.

I would say, you know, every conventional doc has heard of the microbiome and the vagus nerve and probiotics, even if they're not necessarily understanding quite how to incorporate that knowledge. But it's getting there. It's just that, you know, they say it takes at least 17 years for clinical research to translate into. Well, for research to translate into clinical practice. And, you know, it's a slow process. And frankly, our kids can't wait because right now our kids do have a crisis of chronic disease. And so, I mean, this is why I do what I do. But I'm fully confident that we will get to a place where microbiome, gut health, gut brain connection, gut immune system connection are discussed in training. I mean, hopefully. Right. So that we can have more.

You bring so much awareness to it with your work. So thank you for that.

I mean, I'm trying. Right. We can only do our best. But, but I do, I do have hope. I mean, that, that things will change. And, and frankly, like I said, we can't wait because our, our kids and our families need it now.

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. You've identified, and I know this is a big interest of yours, is the microbiome. And, and I can see why, because if we look at all the big picture of all the different health issues that children are facing and we start looking for the root causes, which is what is integral to naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, however you want to call it, functional medicine, is. Let's look at the underlying causes and address them so then we can shift the risk of different health issues. So if you don't mind, like, tell us more about that. Like, for anyone who's listening in and saying, why is it that you're talking so much about the microbiome? Why is that so important for a, if a parent could pick to start anywhere, why should they start there?

So, I mean, many of your listeners have heard the saying, you know, credited to Hippocrates, that all Disease starts in the gut. But, you know, when we flip that and say all health also starts in the gut, we realize just how important that is for, for children. And there's, there are many, many studies really, you know, backing up this idea that, that your child's gut microbiome, from the moment they're born and how it gets shaped, especially in those first, the first thousand days, the first two and a half to three years of life, really informs how their immune system, you know, what, what path their immune system will choose to take and how their brain and their synapses and all of those brain connections will form and which ones they keep. And so, you know, we know from, from studies, for instance, this one particular study of nearly 800,000 children was a military study, and it looked at infants who were given antibiotics or antacid medications in the first six months of life and found that in those children they had a significantly increased, some even up to double the risk of developing every single allergic disease by the time they're four years of age. And think now as a parent, I mean, the number of kids with anaphylactic food allergies having to carry EpiPens, this was not the case even when I first started as a pediatrician, you know, back in the late 90s, early 2000. And, and, you know, the number of kids with eczema and asthma and hay fever are all climbing. And so we can attribute that to what is, what's the impact of antibiotics and antacid medications, their immediate disruptors of the gut microbiome. And especially what we found over the decades is that our children's, and I'm sure us as adults, too. But I'm thinking at it from a pediatric lens that we know our children's gut microbiomes have changed, that they have way less of this beneficial probiotic bacteria called bifidobacteria. And that has been linked even in adults, let's say, with COVID 19. They. One study found that, that patients who had more severe outcomes had less bifidobacteria in their gut. And when we see that 80% of our immune system is housed in our gut microbiome, we can see why this naive immune system in this baby that's relying on their, their gut microbiome to shape it and to, you know, tell it how to form. If we have a disrupted gut microbiome, we might not have the results that we really want to. So that's, I mean, that's, that's one area. And then, of course, we have this, this crisis of mental health in children and teenagers. And.

Now we know that these early stages where, you know, your infant and your toddler's brain is exploding with new connections, and you can literally see every day you're like, oh my gosh, their brain's different. They learned something new. And oh, by the way, that same thing happens in your preteen teenage years, right? Where literally their brain's like exploding with new connections. We know actually is following how the microbiome is also rapidly changing during these times of development. And because of the, it's so fascinating, right. And it's, it's most likely the case that it's, it's how the microbiome is changing and developing during these times that influences how your child or your teenager's brain is, is really forming and changing. And, and so if we can help support that gut brain connection via the vagus nerve and help support your gut micro microbiome with all of the beneficial bacteria that create most of our body's serotonin, right? Like 90% of our serotonin to help us feel calm and relaxed and fall asleep, and maybe 50% of our dopamine, which is helps with kids with attention and focus. Right. We can see why supporting the gut microbiome, especially during these formative years, can really help to create more healthy, positive, optimal brain connections for them.

And also that why what you were mentioning before in terms of antibiotics, that when kids are getting exposed to antibiotics one time is not going to be such a negative effect, but I think it's, it's right when it's, what happens is too often it becomes antibiotics after antibiotics after antibiotics. And we're not looking at why is this child susceptible to infection and how else can we address this and sort of prioritize? Right. It's not that we want to say antibiotics are bad or don't use antibiotics. It's more like how can we be preventive and only use antibiotics when necessary? Because if we use them too much, it disrupts the microbiome. Right?

Yeah, well, and you know, this topic of antibiotics is so important for parents and practitioners to really understand.

So important that I actually wrote a whole chapter on antibiotics in my book.

I'm glad you did.

Right, an entire chapter. Because yes, antibiotics can be life saving. It's just that when we don't recognize some of the fallout on the gut microbiome and then the future consequences on your child's metabolic health or even yours. Right. Our metabolic health, immune health, brain health, we are not serving our children's and our needs in the most optimal way. And so we also know, I mean, one of the things that really that, I mean, I even my, my son was learning about this, he's in seventh grade, and he was, you know, wanted to learn about antibiotics. And some experts are predicting that by 2050.

Antibiotic resistance is going to become a leading cause of death worldwide. I mean, that's, that's like, I mean, only 25 years from now. And we, in some studies, we know that antibiotics can be absolutely necessary and appropriate, but we also know that antibiotics are often inappropriately prescribed. And for children, that number can be up to 70% of prescription antibiotics are inappropriately prescribed. Right. Whether 70% oftentimes for, you know, viruses. Right. Like your kid comes in with a cold and a fever and, you know, you're just, as a parent, you're like, what do we do? And, and so you might get a prescription for that. We know antibiotics don't do anything for viruses, and sometimes it's, it's using like a bigger, broader spectrum antibiotic than necessary. So it's, you know, as practitioners and as parents, we want to be good antibiotic stewards from a public health standpoint and really make sure that when we are prescribing or using antibiotics that they really are absolutely necessary. And then, you know, from that more kind of naturopathic functional medicine perspective, integrative perspective, we also want to know how to mop up and restore the disruption to your child's gut microbiome after they've had antibiotics. And this is. Even if they've had antibiotics in the, in the distant past, there likely is going to be some, some cleanup and restoration that has to happen, and it's not too late.

That's the thing is that because I know sometimes when parents listen, they're like, oh, shoot, I wish I would have known this before. But it's. Tell us more about reassuring us that it's not too late to start now.

It's, it's never too late, guys. I mean, this is so the first thing I always tell parents because when they hear the statistics or the research around antibiotics when you're younger, because there's another really scary. And I'm going to, I'm going to say scary because it scared me too, right. Reading this with this Danish study where they keep really good track and new data on their population and they can follow patients for quite a while. But they looked at mother infant pairs and antibiotic use and found that in these infants who were exposed to antibiotics even in utero. So as Infants were much more likely and maybe even up to a 50% increased risk of developing mental health concerns as older kids and teenagers. And the more rounds of antibiotics, the higher the risk. And so, you know, that definitely gave me some pause because how many of our teenagers right now with mental health concerns are on low dose minocycline or doxycycline for their acne? They're on other equally disruptive gut microbiome disrupt, you know, microbiome disrupting medications like ibuprofen or Aleve when they have period cramps, right. Or athletes who take it for muscle cramps on. On maybe an SSRI because they're anxious, right. Antidepressant medication. And also maybe they're on.

Maybe some steroids, right. For if they have asthma. Right.

And so like an acid blocker if.

They'Re an acid blocker, if they're having heartburn, right. So all of these medications or birth control pills, right. For period cramps, right. So all of these can disrupt the gut microbiome. And so unknowingly, you know, we're treating these symptoms. But a lot of kids and grownups too, right. Have had this experience where, you know, maybe the antidepressant helps temporary. Like at first you're like, wow, this is great, right? And sometimes we need a little lift, right? But after a while it stops working and we're like. And then we start feeling worse and worse or our kids, our teenagers are feeling worse and worse. And we're not connecting the dots. That, wow, maybe it's, maybe part of it is that all of the medications they're on to try to help these symptoms are disrupting their gut microbiome, which are actually making these symptoms worse. And so, you know, understanding that is, is really important. And then I also tell parents that, you know, my. Both my children had antibiotics when they were under six months of age. And I, and I knew they were absolutely necessary. I, I still, you know, was a. Would have ideally not given it to them, but when they're necessary, they're necessary. And you know, my daughter at three weeks of age, you know, two weeks of age, had a. Ut. A urinary tract infection. We don't mess with that with babies, Right?

Yeah. Situations where, you know, so just for parents to be compassionate with themselves and be like, yeah, that sometimes it's is necessary.

Absolutely. And then, you know, my son had antibiotics when he was five weeks of age. We had strep going around the family and lots of family visitors. And he had this, you know, greenish discharge from his Ears that ended up being strep. And so that too, I wouldn't mess around, you know, with, with an infant with a bacterial infection. And so we do the best we can. And even if you didn't know back when your kids got antibiotics or medications, how disruptive they are to the gut microbiome now, you know, Right. And when, you know, that's the first step, you know, we might feel some, some, some guilt, which, I mean, that's, you know, as a mom, we can't help it. But then we just acknowledge, okay, this, it was the best I was doing at the time with the knowledge that I had. Now I know different. And we're going to move forward with our gut healing regimen, you know, getting, identifying root causes, addressing nutritional deficiencies, all of that. So I view what's happened in the past is really more of an opportunity to tell your child's story, understand where they're starting from. Because when you understand where you're starting from, then you know the path to move forward.

We're all exposed to stress. Women, men and children are experiencing alarming rates of stress and burnout. It's not something that we can completely avoid or escape. But what we don't hear about is how to recover from all this stress that we're exposed to. This is what inspired my research and collection, clinical work over the past two decades where I've been looking to answer that question, what can help us as humans to recover from stress? And through that research and work, what I discovered is that we're not all affected by stress the same way. While we might assume that we all have high stress hormones of cortisol and adrenaline, it's simply not the the case when it comes down to it. And I measure the levels, what I found is that there are five stress types. This is how as humans, we are most likely to be affected by stress in terms of how that stress disrupts our stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline. So this is what led me to develop the stress type quiz. And I made this quiz quiz available online so you can do it right here on my website@drdani.com and in less than two minutes you can know your stress type, which is how stress is affecting your body and your stress hormones at this point in your life. This is key information to now be able to recover from stress and reverse the effects of stress. Because two to the degree that our cortisol and adrenaline is either too high or too low, we are constantly being affected by stress that happened in the past. Once we can re optimize our cortisol and adrenaline. We have eliminated the effects of stress and we can now go into the future with a clean slate with optimal hormone levels and our body functioning as if the stress never happened. So I would love for each and every one of you to know your stress type so then I can teach you the diet and lifestyle changes you can make, as well as the nutrients and herbs that are specific to your stress type so that you can effectively reverse the effects of stress, recover from stress, and prevent future stress from negatively affecting your health. I can't wait for you to do.

This quiz, find out your stress type.

And go on this journey with me to mastering your stress and resetting your health. I'll see you there.

It's such a great way to look at it. You know, sometimes we do have to kind of address our mindset, how we're seeing things, our frame of reference in order to be like, how do I move forward from here? And because it is a lot of responsibility for parents, I always say, like, making decisions for your child's health is one of the biggest responsibilities and hardest things, decisions we have to make as parents. And it's like so to have your help. So the more informed parents can be, then they can be making more informed decisions. I know in your book you talk about these some simple starting things that kids and parents can do to improve their microbiome. The microbiome magic. Do you mind sharing some about that with us? Like just so people get a sense of like how simple it can be to take steps in this direction. It doesn't have to be like a huge overwhelming overhaul.

Yeah. And I love that because simple. Now a lot of the things that I discuss in the book, they are simple ideas, but they can produce really profound results.

I love that.

Right. And we have to recognize that and give ourselves grace that sometimes the simplest things are not the easiest things.

Right.

Think about how, you know, for adults how much easier it is to pop a couple of pills and think, oh, okay, now everything's going to get better without doing the other work that really is foundational. And so, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, the second part of the book where I talk about creating microbiome magic every day, it's based on my the the six week healthy kids, happy you, healthy belly, happy you course that I actually created a curriculum for my kids 8th, 3rd or 4th grade class. And I know it was so fun. And the reason why I really want to write about it is because I know firsthand you can get 8 to 10 year olds to want to try to get in more vegetables or try some fermented foods or do things a little differently when they understand all about the trillions of tiny little, you know, friends in their tummies and how important they are to keep them healthy, happy, run faster down the soccer field, you know, sleep easier, not have as many worries. So when we connect the dots for our kids, a lot of times they're our biggest teachers. I mean, I had parents calling, texting me and calling me saying, I can't believe so and so actually is reading food labels and said, mom, we shouldn't buy that, right? Or like, you know, I can't believe, you know, so. And so actually, you know, took a bite. So she's so picky. I can't believe she actually took a bite of the sauerkraut that you guys made in class. So it can happen and I know it can. And so, yeah, it's amazing.

I love this. I always love these concepts of including the kids, right. It's a whole different really concept of parenting and communication with children, right? To instead of thinking, oh, children just need to follow the directions and they don't really know. We, the adults know when the children don't know. This is a different concept of saying, hey, if we give children information, they can actually start to make this different decisions themselves. And so we're working together as a team, parents and children. Yeah, I hear you talking about.

Yeah, and that's so important. I mean, you know, as, as moms, dads, you know, grandparents listening. I mean, it's so much easier to do something when you understand the why. Right? And I mean for us too as grownups, but for kids especially, and here's the thing, I mean, when your kids are young, you really do have 100% control of what's on their plate and what goes, you know, in their mouths. But that quickly changes, right? And you know, when they, when they start going to school and going to birthday parties and they see, oh well, you know, Johnny's having like these, these rainbow colored Skittles, why can't I, right? And so they need to understand the why. Because if we just say no, that's bad for you. No, that's horrible. Look at all the added sugar. That's artificial. That's really not going to cut it in the long run because they're not going to really embrace the why. And you know, it's inevitably going to lead to pushback or an unhealthy relationship with food, which we don't want. So I even think from the time your babies are, are babies and you're starting those first solids, my gosh. Oh my gosh. Do you love these, you know, these refried black beans? They're so good for your microbiome, you know, did you know you have so many friends in your belly that are trying to, you know, keep you strong and healthy? I mean, just talking to them and then of course we use more age appropriate language as they get older, but you know, they will eventually be buying their own lunches, right? Going out with friends, making choices at, you know, at the grocery store making choices what, what bag of chips they want to buy or what drink they want to buy for themselves. And in college and beyond, if we set the foundations of educating them on, you know, how to nourish their microbiomes in order to nourish their immune systems and their brains, it helps them understand how to make those choices when we're not there to help them with those choices. And we can do it in a way that, where they don't feel like I'm only doing it because mom wants to.

And it helps us to take the nagging out of it too. So just so important. And so some of the things that I talk about in the book and help kids and parents work through and I also wrote this book for practitioners because we only have so much time in our office visits. I mean, even for me, where my office visits are 45 minutes to an hour, it's still to sit down and discuss all the different facets of, you know, how to support your microbiome. There's, there's not enough time, right? So you can imagine, you know, In a short, 15, 20 minute visit, I mean, you know, what time is there going to be to really address all the points? And so, you know, I talk about the five things for microbiome magic because they're not necessarily additional things that your kids have to do, right? There are five things they're already doing. But I teach kids and parents how to do them in a way that, in a gut hero way, in a way that supports our microbiome. So the first part is eating right. We have to eat every day, right? And so how do we think about getting in all of our microbiome champions like, you know, fiber, fermented foods, phytonutrients, and really framing it in a way that we're not just nourishing, you know, our, our, ourselves, we're not just doing it because we want to, we're really choosing foods that are going to help that, that ecosystem system, our microbiome, to flourish. And then sometimes more importantly, it's what do we need to keep out, especially as kids are starting to, you know, buy their own foods. How to read food labels like a gut hero. I think if all parents and kids learned how to read food labels in a really savvy way, even foods that look healthy to you, if we're really savvy, we can point out what I call microbiome mischief makers and, and know which food additives especially are going to be inflammatory, are going to hurt your, your child's brain, are going to sometimes directly cause leaky gut and gut dysbiosis, sort of disrupt the balance of bacteria and microorganisms in your gut. And, you know, I especially, I'd say the two things that I especially have kids look out for are, well, sugar and sugar substitutes. So that's one category. So being mindful counting, you know, how much added sugar they're having in a day to just recognize how much over or not are they to the maximum recommended 25 grams of added sugar in a day. And sometimes when they realize, oh my gosh, that Starbucks frappuccino that I'm having every day with my friends after school that has 42 grams of added sugar already over. Already way over. Right. So maybe they'll choose to have it once a week. Right. And then balance it out with, you know, lots of great microbiome nourishing, you know, fruits and vegetables and legumes, you know, the rest of the day.

And then, you know, like a game almost. I hear that. You know, like, and I like to think about it that way too. You know, like, once you understand sort of how to play the game of optimizing your gut biome in your own health, then you can kind of. Yeah. Navigate the options and say, okay, if I get some of these, then I can have a little bit of this. And if I, you know, if I decrease this, it allows me more of this, you know, so it's, I think, yeah, definitely. Kids of a lot, a lot of ages can get these concepts.

Oh, yeah. And, and it's, it's, you know, I love that you're saying that because it's really, it is about the balance, right? It is about balance and for the most part, learning how to make choices that are, you know, nourishing for you and your microbiome. And so, and then the other, you know, there's another.

Like artificial sweeteners. I just, I cringe at the number of hydration drinks that, you know, I have kids say, but it's no sugar. Right. But you know, things like prime or, you know, whatever, whatever fuel, energy fuel thing that has sucralose and acesulfame potassium, and some have saccharin, and they are just as, or on some levels, even more addictive than actual sugar. And they have been shown in the literature to disrupt your gut microbiome. So I just, I would rather on, on many levels have kids, just have the, the sugar, hopefully a little less of it than go for the no sugar, artificial stuff. Right?

Yeah, yeah. It's good for them to understand marketing and because sometimes these, they make these containers really cool and flashy, so you. Makes you want to have it, but then you have to be like, wait a minute, what is really happening here? What's, what's really in this stuff that I'm about to pour into my body?

That's right. And, and that's, you know, and, and unknowingly. Right. Unwittingly, a lot of parents and kids are choosing these because they, they believe that they are healthier. Because, I mean, everyone at this point now has heard sugar is bad, right? It's not that sugar is bad, bad, bad, it's just that we're having too.

And so then, you know, trying to find no sugar, zero sugar. We're not making healthier swaps in that way. And so just, you know, educating yourself too, about, you know, some of the unintended harms that these artificial sugar substitutes can have is, is really important for children because now it's hard to pick up a, you know, a package of, you know, I mean, anything even there, there are these, you know, real, real, real fruit, no sugar popsicles that look like they're healthy, they're real fruit. But then when I turn over the package and read the label, which you should read every single label, I'm like, wow, okay, it's sweetened with sucralose. That's. How about just a real fruit pop with just fruit and that's it. And water.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's such a good point. And it's like, that's such powerful information. The more you can just become of these things, what a big difference it can make.

Yeah. And then, you know, there's. So there's looking at learning what to watch out for on your food labels. And then there's also, you know, there's different ways that we can really think about moving our bodies to support our gut microbiome, getting optimal sleep, because that does support our Gut microbiome. Just two days of sleep deprivation changes your gut microbiome for the worse. And that two days of disruption takes seven days of getting optimal sleep to repair. Right.

It really makes us shift our perspective on sleep. Right. Because so many cultures, including American culture, we kind of downplay the importance of sleep and we're increasing the number of activities that children are participating in. So they're having to like burn the candle at both ends. Starting from a young age, you know, wake up early for class and stay up late for a different activity. And then the sleep window is smaller and smaller.

It gets smaller and smaller. And yes, we're packing in way too many activities. And as your kids get older, like mine are their playing time, their practice time in the field gets later and later. So sometimes their games aren't until 8:30. I mean, one time my daughter had a 9:00 game. I'm like, 9:00', clock, that's past my bedtime. And so we have that. And then of course, as kids get older, then they have the pull of the screen and the social media or games that then even if they're ready for bed, they're just, they're staying up even later, you know, with, with their screen time. So I mean, I just, I think, just as an aside, I think one of the best family rules to have is no phones in the bedroom. So no devices in the bedroom that they all get charged outside in the living room or the kitchen. Also, you know, no cell phone use in the car, so mommy can't use one while I'm driving. We're all going to, you know, be, be phone free. Because I'm telling you, especially as your kids get older and they're teenagers, some of the best conversations you have will be the ones that happen in the car. Right. And not when they're kind of buried in their phone, you know, kind of texting their friends. Right. So, and then hydration. Most, you know, something like 8 in 10 kids don't drink enough water. And, and like, you know, there are a good percentage of kids that don't drink, drink any water during the day. Water drinkers have different microbiomes than poor water drinkers.

Isn't that something?

Yeah. And you know, optimal water drinkers also tend to eat more fruits and vegetables. It's a funny thing, right? But, but it's just, I mean, that is correlated. And so even that's going to support your microbiome. So instead of like, you know, like I've done, I'm going to say I'm guilty of this, too. Instead of nagging, you need more water. Like, hey, did you know when you actually drink enough water, it's going to help your microbiome, help you right. To, you know, have a better soccer game this afternoon or whatever it is. So we're kind of taking up and giving them, giving our kids some ownership and responsibility for not just because we're telling them, but because they're nurturing this, this whole ecosystem that's in them. Right. And then of course, one of my favorite things to talk about with kids is their, their gut brain connection and how when we support our, you know, our brain to be calm and, and, you know, regulated and engage our vagus nerve, that helps our microbiome. When our microbiome is healthy and happy, that helps our brains be healthy and happy. So, you know, really. And the fascinating thing with, there's one study in children that found that engaging the vagus nerve, improving something called heart rate variability, which is a sign of optimal vagus nerve functioning, that that could optimize and improve gut microbiome diversity in children independent of diet. I mean, I love that.

That's so awesome. Yeah. And I love when, like, if we can all be learning about the vagus nerve, but also for kids to be learning about the vagus nerve, you know, just to be familiar with their bodies and their anatomy and how their nervous system works and, and ways we can help. Yeah. Engage our vagus nerve, that ends up benefiting our health so much.

I mean, it benefits our. It benefits our mental health, it benefits our immune health because psychological stress creates inflammation. Right. It benefits our gut microbiome. I mean, it has so many ripple effects. And, you know, and we've all, I mean, not we've all, but, you know, I, I certainly see children where the psychological stress and not being able to regulate their nervous systems and use their vagus nerve to calm can trigger asthma or eczema attacks.

Yep.

And make you miss your period or get it too early. Right. Can trigger hives and I mean, all sorts of things. Right. And so, and of course, there's. There's the tummy aches and the nausea or the reflux or the whatever it is that can. That can occur. So, you know, I look at supporting kids vagus nerves and incorporating breathing tools, mindfulness meditation tools. I don't even call them mindfulness and meditation really anymore. I call it vagus nerve work. Right. I love that because it's really what it is. Yeah. And we need to impress upon children and parents that it is just as Much of a prescription, if not more important of a prescription than any supplement or medication that I could, I can recommend. Right. It is, it is so important and it's something that we don't in our society really give it enough credence because we've separated in, in conventional medicine we sort of separated kind of above the neck and below the neck. So, so mental health concerns are considered something apart from your body, which is, is so not true. I mean it's so intimately connected. And we've kind of put yoga, breath work, mindfulness meditation into that. Woo woo. I'll do it when I have time. Right. But we have to recognize that we must make the time for it. And I view the benefits primarily in terms of supporting the vagus nerve and heart rate variability as a side effect that you actually feel happier and calmer. Right. I mean it's, I mean what a great benefit.

Yeah. And something, yeah. Back to being simple is like we, we tend to forget that we, we take it, take for granted that we breathe all the time. And sometimes when we're stressed and someone says, oh, just take a breath, it actually can feel annoying. But I think what you're saying is shifting that this awareness that actually taking a deep breath, breath helps the nervous system calm via the vagus nerve and can have such a positive ripple effect that it's, we should be excited to be saying, hey, take a breath because. Right. Like let's, let's encourage and remind each other that let's start there because it doesn't have a, it's a prescription that doesn't have a downside.

I mean I, I love that I, you know, I actually have never thought about the fact that we do say take a breath. Breath. Right. But, but it's so true. And in fact one of the, the first vagus nerve sort of exercise that I talk about in my book is belly breathing or diaphragmatic breathing because like you said, we have to breathe all day long every day. You know, that, that we're living. Right. So I mean we have to do it anyway. It's not an add on. We're not asking your kids to do something extra than what they're already doing. So if they learn how to breathe with their diaphragm, really understand how to belly breathe, that they have to breathe anyway. But that directly exercises their vagus nerve, improves heart rate variability, helps them feel more calm and happy and supports their microbiome. And it's fascinating to me when I sit in the office and I, you know, try to, I Demonstrate to kids and to their parents in the room how to do belly breathing. It's fascinating how many parents can't even do it. Not. Not just yet. They have to practice it, because over our decades of living, we've just learned to take these very shallow, short breaths because we're always in this fight or flight, like, oh, my gosh, I'm. I'm late. I have this deadline. I have to pick up my kids from school, and, you know, all of that. And so we've. We've just kind of learned to keep our shoulders high and just breathe with our shoulders and the upper part of our chest, right? Our lungs fill our entire chest all the way down to, you know, the bottom of our rib cage, where we have this strong muscle called the diaphragm, right? And so what I'll have kids and parents do is just put one hand on their chest just so that they're making sure they're keeping their chest still, and then one hand on their belly, and they imagine that there's a balloon in their belly. And as they take a slow breath in.

Their belly's expanding. And as the exhale slowly, their belly's deflating. There's no shoulder movement. And we're not sucking in our guts like we've learned how to do throughout our whole lives, right? We're just letting that breath happen. But when a lot of kids and parents first try to do it, it's, you know, I've watched fascinating how they're trying to, you know, figure out which hands should be moving or not moving, and their, you know, their chest is rising, and then they're trying to, you know, pooch out their belly and while they're exhaling. So it can take practice. But here's the thing. When your child learns how to belly breathe, they can do it anywhere. So if they. Without looking different, right? So if they're sitting in class and maybe. Maybe their friend has said something mean to them, or they're about to take a test and they're kind of like, you know, getting a little. A little anxious and like, oh, my gosh, like, what's. What's happening? If they can literally take that breath, right? Slow, focus inward, slow their breathing down, take 10 belly breaths. Nobody has to know what you're doing, it immediately flips that switch of your vagus nerve on so that you can be calm, regulated. You can think about what you might want to say to your friend or not, or you can sit down and take your test in a more relaxed way and then be able to get into that state where you're more productive and effective and calm and focused. So it's something that even as adults, if we could really learn how to do, I mean, how much more healthy would our interpersonal relationships be? Right. And our work interactions and whatever else it is. Right.

It's such an amazing tool. And I love that you're really. I see this civil rights activist in you, Lisa, saying, hey, what if kids learned this information, whatever age, from infancy to teenage, what if they have this information in their toolbox already? How can that potentially shift things for their lifetime? In many ways. And that's a really powerful and amazing thing. So. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us here. And I'm really encouraging everybody to. You want to learn more from Elisa, make sure you get her Healthy Kids Happy Kids book and read more and stay connected with her because she has. This is even just the tip of the drip in the gallons of water and of information that you have. I know. Like, and I love that you, you have a way to bring the science into a way that people can implement it in a way that's going to really benefit their health. So thank you so much for everything you do.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I just, it's. I, I do. This is my passion project and I'm just, I'm so grateful to be on here and be able to spread the word even more. Yeah.

Is there anything else you'd like listeners to know or to be able to, you know, know what else they can learn from you?

So I do, I have courses on how to use integrative tools for common acute conditions. I, I have courses on getting through the winter cold and flu season. I'm always developing more courses, so you can. I think the best way to just get apprised of all the latest updates is on my website. That's healthykids happy kids.com on Instagram. I'm most active on Instagram and I try to post educational and entertaining content there. And that's HealthyKidsHappyKids.

Wonderful. Thank you again so much for joining me and sharing this and for everything that you're doing to create shift and change for children and future adults in our world.

Thank you so much, Sonny.

Thanks for listening to how humans heal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources, visit drdani.com.