How To Address Your Emotions and Become Resilient To Stress - with Dr. Joan Rosenberg

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donni Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome. I'm very excited to introduce you to Dr. Joan Rosenberg today. She is a psychologist and has been working in the field of psychology for 45 years. She's been a psychologist for over 30 years, and in that time, she has developed her own unique perspective and way of looking at what we experience in our mental health, I guess I would say. And it's just so helpful with your experience. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Rosenberg, to share with us.

It's a pleasure, Donni. Thank you so much.

Yeah, yeah. I think that for a lot of us, our mind can overwhelm us. You know, it can feel like the mind is just running its own direction and pulling us along behind it. And to have someone like you who's been studying this and helping people, because not only have you been researching and writing, but you also still see clients, is that correct?

That's absolutely correct. Yes, I do. Yeah.

So, like, you're just in this, Just dove in and been doing this. You're basically your whole life. And to be able to share that with people and help them understand their. Their own selves, I think is invaluable. So maybe start by just telling us, I mean, how did you. How did you learn at such a young age that this is what you wanted to do?

You know, it's interesting. I wanted to be. When I was probably in my middle teens, I loved the outdoors. Before I was in my middle teens, I loved the outdoors. And then I found out about what were known as experiential education programs like Outward Bound. So that's using the nature as a medium for personal growth. And I was really just totally dialed into that. And by my middle teens, 16, 17, 18, I was already involved with. At that point, it was something called Stream, and it was the St. Louis Regional Experiential Adventure Movement. So by my mid teens, I was already kind of involved in that stuff, and I wanted to be an Outward Bound instructor. But the way things turned out is that they don't really have. At that point when I was going to school, they didn't have Degree programs for such a thing, or the only ones that existed were like five master's level ones. And I had people around me recommending I get a degree, but there wasn't a degree in that thing. So I went the route of education.

And in that program, they were doing an experimental program in the field of counseling, where they were actually allowing roughly 30 of us to go through an experimental program in counseling as undergraduates, but taking graduate level courses.

Wow.

Yeah. So at the age of 20, I started in the field and I was taking graduate. I was taking basically the graduate degree program in counseling, the master's program in counseling as my undergraduate degree, as part of my undergraduate degree.

So no wonder you just dove in and you just ran with it.

And then I stayed, so. And then kept, you know, just being aware. And.

Again, there were a couple questions that certainly started when I was a kid. One was, because I was not a confident kid, was, how does someone develop confidence? So that was really percolated for me for years and within me for years. And then the second question, once I was in the field, was, what made it so difficult for people to handle or deal with unpleasant feelings? And so those two questions just kind of kept sifting through my brain. And over time, what I realized is that the answer to the second question about unpleasant feelings actually answers the first question of confidence.

And I think it's. I mean, just. I think the fact that you stayed in this. This long and worked with this many clients and kept asking that question that you were able to solve it. So now I'm so excited for you to share with us. You know, what is it? How can. Not only, how do you use it clinically, but how can people apply that in their lives on their own already, even today? But tell us more. Like, where would you start in terms of, you know, maybe just describing the unpleasant feelings and how that, you know, where that brings us.

Excuse me. Actually, Donnie, let me start with the definition of confidence.

Okay.

And then. Because that will lead us right into the other part of it.

Perfect.

The way I look at confidence at this point is that it's a deep sense that you can handle the emotional outcome. And that's the thing. That's the word. The words I would underline is the emotional outcome of whatever you face or whatever you pursue. So deep sense, you can handle the emotional outcome of whatever you face or whatever you pursue. And so in kind of, again, why is it that. Because I found that people wouldn't feel capable in life unless they could handle the undesired emotional Outcome of whatever would happen in life.

Yeah. It's interesting that when you can look at it that way, like, we almost have to stand back enough and observe ourselves enough to say, like, say, if I'm not choosing to do something, why am I not doing that thing? And then look at. And I think you'll probably speak to this a bit. But most of us might first identify anxiety. Like, I feel fear about choosing this.

And maybe that's stopping me. Is that what you mean? Like looking at what are those feelings that stop us from.

Yes, but I don't include anxiety or fear, and we can talk about that later.

But it goes even deeper. You go to the feelings even underneath that.

Exactly, exactly. That's. Yes, definitely.

So what feelings are those? Or tell me what feelings are those?

So I talk about eight feelings in the work that I do, and I call them eight difficult feelings, eight unpleasant feelings. They're not bad and they're not negative because they're actually there for our protective purposes. So I never label them that way. And I really encourage people to use a different kind of label for them than bad or negative. So the eight feelings are sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, vulnerability, embarrassment, disappointment, frustration.

That was. Definitely feel deeper than fear. Like, it's almost. Yes, we might even fear embarrassment, would you say, or.

Well, and again, I wouldn't use the word fear.

You just would take it out of the equation altogether.

Take it out of the equation and I can explain. Let me explain. Let me explain that. So we'll wander a little bit.

Why do I not use fear and anxiety? I don't use fear because psychology broadly defines fear as danger in the moment, right now.

So if you're not facing a lion or a tiger, or you are not literally in danger or facing life threat, then stop using the word fear. Because when you use that word, you sort of activate it within your system. The words we use make a difference in terms of how we feel.

So if you think about fear, you're actually activating your stress response.

Absolutely. At some level, it might be a low level, but you're still activating something that's in line with that. And so if you're not in danger in the moment right now, then please stop using the word fear.

So what's the next most logical outcome? That's actually to use the word anxiety, and anxiety actually fits. And again, from psychology standpoint, anxiety would be diffuse apprehension. So kind of a broad concern, if you will, about some bad event happening in the future. And then you're also anticipating a bad outcome to that or an undesired outcome to that bad event. So does that fit? Yes, it does. But if I were to ask 10 people what they meant by anxiety, I would get 10 different answers.

I'm sorry, I find that too.

Right.

Everybody experiences it differently.

Right. So for me, clinically, when I was trying to work with people, that was just way too vague. In other words, it meant nothing.

Well, and it sounds like when we're in an anxious state, we're essentially spinning our wheels.

Right. Right. So if we go Back to the 8. The 8 Feelings or feeling states that I described, then again, the next most logical to follow would be the word vulnerability. So it turns out that many times when people are describing feeling anxious, what they're really feeling is vulnerable. So what's vulnerability? It's this sense that you could be hurt.

I think that's really important, Joan.

I definitely feel like we avoid vulnerability. Right. Like, would you. How can a person, if they're not familiar with that feeling of vulnerability, how could. How do you help people get in touch with that?

They actually have the sense of it. So most times when people are using the word anxious. So think of the. What's the. What people. What people consider the number one fear. Fear of public speaking. But it's not fear of public speaking. It's a concern about being vulnerable, a concern about being hurt. So what. So let's play that out, though. What does hurt look like? Hurt looks like the other seven feelings I mentioned. Being embarrassed, being angry, being disappointed, being frustrated. Right. Feeling shame. So the beauty of this idea of vulnerability, this sense that one can be hurt, is if you have the knowledge that you can handle the other seven feelings, then you can handle vulnerability.

It's really amazing, Joan. Like, you say it as if it's so simple. I know, because you're saying this all the time, but I think when a person really follows what you're saying, and really it sinks in and you go, wait a minute. If I could feel confident that I can handle feeling embarrassed or feeling angry or feeling frustrated, then I'm gonna live through it. Right. Because we act as if it's gonna kill us or something. Right. Like we. We act as if these feelings are.

So important to avoid.

Right. Right. And in fact, that's what I find happens. So that if I want to go pursue something, it's actually not the thing that I'm avoiding. It's the anticipation of the undesired outcome, emotional outcome that I'm avoiding. So I'm not going to go learn a new skill or I'm not going to play, speak in front of people because I'm too afraid of being embarrassed. Not because of the speaking, it's because of the embarrassment. So the key here is understanding that you avoid risks, important risks for you to take not because of the risk itself, it's because of the anticipated emotional outcome of that risk.

Now do you think, why do you think that that's true for humans? Why do you think that? Is there a reason that that's developed that way? Or.

I, well, I just don't, I don't think most of us are trained in feelings. I just don't think we're taught at an early age to actually experience and manage them well. So we're neither taught how to, and largely there are programs that are doing that now, but, but largely we have not been taught how to handle our feelings, to experience and move through them, nor have we been taught how to express them effectively in general.

So what could you, what can you, is there something you can teach us now? Kind of. Even if this, I mean what you're saying makes me think, could it even be part of elementary school or parents teaching their children? But for those of us who are adults now and we're, we haven't had this training, where do we start? How can we start to get more confidence and more comfortable with these unpleasant feelings?

Well, if we step back, if we're in adulthood and we step back, it would be recognizing that we've already been through all those feelings in essence and if we've already lived through them, we can live through them again. We may not want to, but on a day to day basis we're going to experience a range of those feelings. So one way is to just go, I've already lived through it, I can do it again. But the other is that I teach people. It's a method, a simple method, if you will, that's tied to, in my mind, kind of a simple formula. And the formula is one choice, eight feelings, 90 seconds. How does that break down? So what I'm asking people to do is to choose. So what's the choice? It's awareness as opposed to avoidance. Now we can get into avoidance through social media, food, sex, pornography, shopping.

What's that working? Yeah, there's so screens, all sorts of screens, tv. So just understand that there are, I think better than 30 plus ways of, for us to distract ourselves from our feelings, basically from our feelings, from awareness, from being in an aware state about our feelings. So the key is to move away from the avoidance and to lean into awareness. And so what does awareness mean? I'm inviting you to be as aware of and in touch with as much of your moment to moment experience as possible. So choose awareness. That's the one choice. Awareness. The second is the eight feelings. Now I've named them already, but the eight feelings are sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, vulnerability, embarrassment, disappointment and frustration. And why those eight? It's because they're the most common, everyday, spontaneous reactions to things not turning out the way we perceive we need or the way we want.

It really comes down to that, right? Like we're wanting the world to show up a certain way. And when it doesn't, we're gonna have a feeling. As a human, we can just know, okay, as a human, this brain is gonna have maybe a feeling or a response to things not working out the way I want them to. So why don't I just get good at knowing those feelings are gonna happen and being present with them?

Absolutely, absolutely. So it's the everydayness is why of those feelings is why I chose those eight. And I've already explained why not. Why not fear and why not anxiety as two instances of ones no to.

Well, it's my understanding from what you described is that they, they're just not specific enough. And really they're just covering up this other eight that's underneath 100%.

You nailed it. You absolutely nailed it. That's exactly why. Yes.

So we might as well just not get stuck in that nothingness and just dive in and just be like, listen, why am I so afraid, letting myself be stuck in fear about feeling a feeling that as a human, I'm built to feel, I'm built to experience it. So I should just allow myself to. And I'm not going to be harmed or by doing so. I might as well just give it its time, give it its space. And then I'm. Because I think this is what you're going to from your 90 seconds. If I can just be with that feeling for 90 seconds, I'm going to be able to move on with my day.

100%. Yes, definitely. So let's walk through the rest of it then. So we've got the one choice, the eight feelings. And the, the 90 seconds piece is really the key to being able to stay present to the feeling and to experience it. So what does the 90 seconds mean again? My big question was what made it so difficult for people to handle unpleasant feelings? And it turns out after the neuroscience started to come out in the early 2000s, most of the writers were talking about how interconnected we are in terms of brain and body, that we're actually not kind of this separate, distinct thing. And so we're one interconnected whole. And the truth is that most of us come to know what we're feeling emotionally through bodily sensation. So think, for example, embarrassment that you can see, that you all see the redness in my neck and into my face, right? I would feel the heat of the blood rushing into my face. So the heat is the bodily sensation in this instance. And it's true for a wide variety of feelings as well. I might feel a downward trend in my chest for either sadness or disappointment, for example. And those are just examples. And so that's one piece of it. And so the key here that dawned on me is that it's not that we don't want to feel the full range of what we feel. I really believe we do want to feel that full range, pleasant and unpleasant. But what we don't want to feel are the bodily sensations that help us.

What you think we're avoiding, that's what.

We try to get away from. It's a bodily sensation that feels so uncomfortable to us, like that pit in.

Our stomach or the lump in our throat. The things we usually think of as this feeling that's interesting, the bodily feeling of the emotion. We're like, oh, I don't want to feel that discomfort, right?

And as a result, we then try to stay away from feeling the feeling itself. We try to shut down on that bodily sensation. But the last piece of it is that.

It was really an observation made by Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, who wrote the book My Stroke of Insight, where she talks about this flood of biochemicals that rush into our bloodstream that actually activate the bodily sensations we've been talking about. And they flush out of the bloodstream in roughly 90 seconds. So what it became was a way for me to be able to talk. I was always telling people to ride the wave. Ride the wave, ride the wave. Little did I know that what I was telling them was to ride the bodily sensation waves, even bodily chemicals that.

Are signaling this flush, right?

And the feeling itself, right? And so then I could say, look, we're talking about short lived bodily sensation, way short lived, meaning under 90 seconds, short lived, meaning less than half a song, right?

And most people would go, well, I can do 90 seconds. Great, now you can lean into the feeling. And again. So my thing is that it's one or more waves of one or more of eight unpleasant feelings. So the whole premise of my work really, and it gets Much more involved in this is that if you can experience and move through, or if you can ride one or more short lived bodily sensation waves of one or more of eight unpleasant feelings, then you can go pursue anything you want in life.

Wow, it's really, really, I guess it makes me kind of wonder, you know, what if, what if I were to go through each day just with a little more awareness even just from every time I talk to you this happens, by the way, but little more awareness for when are these feelings starting and am I being present for them for say up to 90 seconds? You know, and you know, just even naming the emotion or the feeling and then realizing, hey, once I go through that, what shifts? You know, can I now be more in problem solving mode? Or is that what happens like once seconds, then what?

Yeah, so here's, here's the thing first is pause. Just let, if you can just lean into the feeling, see if you can name it. Because once you name it, then you'll actually experience, you'll have a different experience within. And my, my general experience working with people is that once the feeling is named, there's actually a calm that follows.

So validation or something.

Yes, you'll actually. And you're actually more true to yourself. So it's more if you're living more authentically. And for instance, if you notice the difference from when I said anxiety and then said vulnerability, once people go, oh yeah, it's vulnerability, then there's a calming response that follows by way of example.

So what happens? You have this reaction, you kind of pause and go, all right, let me kind of lean into this. And then what I would say is while you're in that pause, so the first thing for you to do is to breathe into the feeling. Take some deep snot, not really fast, fast paced, shallow breathing, but take some deep, slow breaths and really allow yourself to stay present to the feeling that's rising up and lean into it, let yourself experience it. And then while you're in that pause, stop and ask yourself a couple questions. So the first might be, well, what am I reacting to? What triggered this?

What's this reaction about? And what is the feeling more specifically? And then once you identify what triggered it, again, if you can in the moment, and this doesn't take very long, then you can even ask more questions and you can say, huh, I wonder if there's a pattern to this.

Or I wonder if my reaction is not just about right now. My reaction is also about something in the past.

So the beauty of it is you can be Very. Once you kind of stay in the feeling and you're present to it, you're aware of it, you're in touch with it, then you can ask a variety of questions. And those questions will actually help calm even further and then move you to a place where you may go, oh, you know what? I need to make a decision about whatever I'm experiencing, or I need to talk to somebody. I need to express myself. Or maybe I need to take some kind of action to follow through. So there's actually a sequence of things that follows so that you can actually make use of the feeling.

Because otherwise we might just try to, like, distract ourselves from it and miss this whole opportunity. It really looks, from the way you're describing it, it looks like an opportunity to connect with oneself, to know oneself, and to acknowledge. Like, even if you end up realizing, oh, my gosh, this feeling is. I recognize it as something related to something that happened in my childhood. Or maybe this is. This is a feeling I have often. And maybe that's, you know, maybe there's something I can do to help myself just be present with this and to. To now look at my situation, whatever the situation is, and kind of have a different perspective on it and realize, hey, maybe I want to choose differently or express myself differently to potentially shift the pattern, would you say? Or.

Yes, absolutely, Absolutely. So let me get again, a very common example would be somebody that, as a friend of yours, but that person, every time you arrange a get together, that person cancels. And now it's like the 17th time that that person is canceled. So not only do you get disappointed repeatedly.

You might go, you know what? This is not okay. I need to speak. Either speak up about this, or maybe maybe this is not a mutual friendship, right? Maybe I need to make a different kind of decision. So it's having the awareness. And why? Because you're leaning into experiencing the feelings.

Okay. Okay. Because otherwise you might just be stuck with feeling, I don't know, just either angry or disappointed, but not even necessarily realizing it. Just feeling, maybe anxious about. Every time you make this date with this friend, you're like, anxious they're gonna cancel again. But really it's about going, hey, wait a minute. Maybe I need to just let this friend know that I feel disappointed each time.

Right, Got it. You got it. And now we're making use of the feeling. So not only are we aware of it and experience it, then we go, all right, there's something that I can actually make use of the feeling for me to make use of the feeling.

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I realized too, when I've talk this through with you before, I started realizing that and I know you talk about this in your book, I want to share about your, your book here in a second. That the more comfortable I get with, you know, hey, I can, it's okay to feel disappointed, then I feel more confident expressing when I feel disappointed. And the more comfortable I get with feeling and expressing my disappointment, then I become a better friend because I'm more able to be present with someone else's disappointment. It's like the more comfortable we are with our feelings, the more comfortable we can be being present with someone else feeling those feelings.

100% true. Yes. Yes.

Which can make a huge difference in our relationships, in our work and everything we do. Because.

Well, right. Not only do we become more true to ourselves and live more authentically at that point, not only because we're experiencing it, but we're taking the next step to express it. It actually then is an invitation to deepen a relationship with whoever you're in relationship to and whoever you have, whoever you're starting to express yourself to, then it's an invitation for actually a much deeper and closer and warmer, more loving relationship.

Like I might even say what I noticed was if, if another person, say another person is experiencing anger, right? And in the past when that person was feeling angry, that might trigger me like I might then get triggered by them feeling angry, feeling like I did something wrong or whatever. But when I started to realize, hey, this person is just experiencing anger and Maybe they need 90 seconds or more to kind of like be present and have someone be present with their experience of anger and I don't have to be responding to that. I can just be present.

Right.

The more I'm able to be present with that person's anger or sadness or whatever feelings, then it just shifts the whole dynamic. Now they feel like they were heard and they were supported. And then once that process is done, then I can look at myself and say, hey, how did that feel to me? Did I have a feeling about that? And, you know, so it can kind of create a little bit of a, you know, back and forth.

Right.

How you work it through, is that right?

That's absolutely true. And you nailed it in terms of what it looks like as people. As people become more present to their own experience.

And are willing to then express what they're feeling so that. You're exactly right. People feel more supported. They feel more understood. And from my perspective, the relationships just deepen.

Well, and I even see this even in, you know, yes, in relationships, close relationships, like, you know, say, partnerships, or even in parenting and child relationships or. But also what comes to mind is even liking customer service.

Like, you know, if a customer has a feeling of disappointment, let's say, about something that occurred, you know, that's kind of what we think of as customer service. Right. It's just being able to be present with that person's disappointment on them, to express it without it necessarily meaning that it's the end of the world, you know, or the end of the business, or some of. We tend to make things bigger in our minds than they really are. Right.

Right. And my experience, generally speaking, Donnie, is to lean, is actually to respond to the feeling first.

If somebody came, like you're working in a business or doing something, and somebody comes and says, hey, I don't like the way this worked out or such and such happened, and I'm disappointed, then your first response as the listener is actually to respond to the feeling and go, I get that you're disappointed.

And I'm sorry that that's occurred.

And so you respond to the feeling first, and then you go to the problem solving, not the other way around. You don't try to problem solve by just running past the feeling. I'll give you actually a really good example. I was talking to a physician recently.

Who had an experience with one of her patients. And the patient was really upset with, in this case, this particular physician. Unusual because they've been a long history together, but it was an unusual reaction that the patient had to the physician. And as I was listening to what I was told about how the conversation transpired, there was Never recognition of the feeling.

Yeah, we skipped that step.

Yeah, just boom. Just bounced right over it. And so what I said was I recommended that the person go back and actually respond in an email and say, hey, I realized I was trying to solve the problem, but I also realized I never recognized what you were going through.

And so what ended up happening is that the patient had not been responding to the problem solve emails.

Right.

As soon as the feeling email came over, the patient went, ah, yeah, thank you very much. I'm so, you know, I didn't like it. Thanks for recognizing that was what went on for me. Yes, let's schedule another appointment.

And I think that we mean sometimes as either professionals or I think a lot of it is just as humans. I mean, because I could explain this as being a parent or being, you know, like we hesitate to say I'm sorry. I think maybe also because we're trying to avoid an unpleasant feeling. Is that right?

That would fit. Sure. It's embarrassment. Something got missed.

So we end up getting so jammed up and stuck in these communications with each other because one person's having a feeling that they aren't quite being able to be present with and then the other person is trying to avoid having another feeling and it just becomes a big traffic jam.

Right. Or avoid actually experiencing the thing that the person's angry about or to absorb. To kind of absorb that and become defensive about it instead of just saying, I hear you. I get that you're angry, or I get that you're sad or whatever it might be, or I get that you're frustrated.

So it seems like we might actually have to like, if I'm thinking to myself, the more comfortable I am with feeling embarrassed, like, okay, if I'm good at, you know, I'm good at. If I'm okay, confident with feeling embarrassed, it's going to be a lot easier for me to just. If someone says something like that, to be able to say, hey, you know what? I hear that you're feeling that and I really feel sorry that that's your experience and I'm here if you want to, then, you know, if there's something we can do to solve it for you.

And that's perfect. So again, the idea here is just remember two words, feelings first. Then you shift to problem solving. And it's that feelings first idea. That's what people are talking about really, when they want to be understood and heard. It's to have that part of the message at the minimum responded to before you actually get to the problem solving. Piece.

I think that's just magical information. You know, it's when I've experienced that and when I've practiced that, it really can shift the whole dynamic. Like you're saying, like, it can really help us as humans then stay in connection and communication with each other. Just simply acknowledging the other person's feelings, our own feelings, having confidence with our feelings. And then part of that acknowledgement is saying, hey, I'm sorry that that's what you're feeling. You know, sometimes, like, you know, there's times when, you know, maybe it is something that I, or, you know, who the person did that ended up triggering those feelings in the other person.

Right.

So being okay with just acknowledging that.

Right? Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And what I. What I would love people to understand too, Donny, is that because a lot of people get hesitant to speak up.

And that difficulty speaking up is not a speaking problem.

Difficulty speaking up is actually a difficulty with unpleasant feelings.

Yeah, I figured that's what you were going to say. And it just. So when, if you notice that about yourself, if you notice that you maybe keep ruminating, like, I wish I could say, or I want to say, or I don't know what to say, really, you could say to yourself, maybe just find some space to practice feeling these unpleasant feelings yourself, because then you're going to be a lot more comfortable when someone else has those unpleasant feelings and how to be present with them. I think that's amazing. I mean, just think how much could shift in our world if all of us had this knowledge and were practicing this. You know, it could just have so much, I think.

Positive effect, ripple effect.

Right, right. So it's. So the idea then of speaking up involves not only experiencing the discomfort of my own emotional discomfort, it's experiencing the discomfort of someone else's emotional discomfort simultaneously. So it's not that we're hesitant necessarily to talk about the facts of something that we want to tell somebody. Again, what gets difficult is that we're anticipating their emotional reaction and as a result, we back off because we don't want to deal with the emotional reaction. So again, the better we get at dealing with those same eight unpleasant feelings in us, then we'll be able to handle those same eight feelings in someone else simultaneously in a conversation.

Now, how, with everything going on in the world recently with this pandemic, how are you finding that this model fits with this real life thing going on for everyone?

Well, it fits 100% in so many different ways. The first is to understand, I mean, the way I Look at what's taken place is that we are in a time of profound loss and grief.

And the loss obviously starts with. And that's only one piece of it. The loss starts with loss of life, of course, but then we can look at the array of restrictions that have occurred. We have a loss of. And we even have loss of an imagined future because of all the going back to school or loss of commencements, weddings, bar and bar mitzvahs. I mean, the list goes on and on in terms of parties, travel. So the list that relates to loss is pretty endless for different people. It's being out in nature. So again, so it's first of all, it's understanding profound loss. And then subsequently to that grief and grief I think of as sadness, helplessness, anger and disappointment. So that together altogether. Well, it's either one or all of them together.

So I could feel sad, and that would be grief. I could feel angry, that would be grief. I could feel disappointed, that would be grief. I could feel helpless, and I would look at that as grief or any combination thereof. So the first way to understand is that we're in this profound period of loss and grief. And what is it complicates that and adds to it is that because we've been sheltered in place.

It actually gives us more time to be with and think about things that we have tended to not resolve.

That's a good point.

And what I think about is that loss begets loss. So that if I'm. If I. That as much as the sense of smell is the quickest way to access memory, I think the experience of loss is a close second.

So that loss compounds itself.

Yeah, right. So what I'm also witnessing is that if there's stuff. If there's emotional stuff, for lack of a scientific term, that has not been resolved, then it's been common for that stuff to surface. While people are more still and more quiet with not the same level of distraction that they had before.

It's like we're noticing things that before we might have overlooked. Like almost emotional clutter.

Right, right. Exactly. That's right. That's right. And that some of the irritability that we might be seeing between people is not actually genuine irritability. It's that they don't have a place to. Not. Not only are they not understanding what they're feeling, but they don't have a place to take these feelings of loss. So it's splashing on each other. The second part of this for me is that it's also a time of what I would call heightened vulnerability, a heightened awareness of vulnerability. And again, most of us don't keep in our conscious minds the fact that we're mortal. Right. And that something could happen.

Right. We think of ourselves, we tend to like to think of ourselves as invincible.

Right. So part of the challenge here is that what's been in front of us over and over and over and why people are describing more anxiety, I think is because what they're actually experiencing is that they're experiencing that sense of vulnerability, that sense I could get hurt. And that's true. We don't know how the virus plays out, Right?

Yeah.

So there's a lot of things that. And we look at what's happening by way of the political landscape, or we look at what's happening by way of social unrest. And we have this confluence of a pandemic, an economic downturn, political instability and social unrest. And there's a reason that we're feeling that level of heightened vulnerability. But that's what I would also have people understand that it's that sense that they could get hurt that's going on. And again, take it away from the word anxiety because it's too diffuse. It's to understand that what you're now perhaps more clearly in touch with is feeling vulnerable and having an awareness that you could get hurt.

Yeah. I was thinking, like, if someone had said to us all, oh, just, everybody's gonna have three months off of work and you can all just have a vacation and it would just be like, oh, great. Like, we would just be like, oh, we can get so much done. We haven't been getting done. And we can, you know, but no, it wasn't, it wasn't like, we can all just say. You can't say, oh, this is just. We're having a three. We're all having a three month vacation. No, like, all came with a avalanche of loss and vulnerability. And so no wonder this. So I think sometimes you have to think it through because in our minds, right. Our mind can be like, hey, I've always wanted some time, more time off work.

Right.

This isn't that. This is. This was. Came unexpectedly with all kinds of loss and vulnerability. Immediately that was unplanned. And then we're all like having to figure out what to do in that situation.

Right. It's immediate. It was unplanned and it doesn't have a known ending.

Wow.

Right. So we're probably to be conservative. We're looking. I think most people are talking about thinking about it from an 18 month perspective. Right. So, I mean, I know some, some businesses are not going back to work for another year.

Wow.

Like, they're not formally. They're not going to ask people to come into the building for another year.

So this is just. I mean, especially in our lifetimes, this is not something we've known how. And I think it's. Even if we look back in history, going through a pandemic now is different likely than it was the last one was.

Definitely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So we're really like learning moment by moment how to do this.

Right, right.

And would you. So what. What are you encouraging people to do when they kind of have these moments of overwhelm with this? Would you come back to these same. Your same?

Yeah. Yeah. You still want to be present to what's going on. I think, again, in this case, use a different word as opposed to anxiety, consider vulnerability. And if it's not vulnerability, consider one or more of the other seven feelings. And then understand that. Be aware that if you're getting in conflict with people that you're living with, understand that some of that conflict may not be genuine conflict. It's actually, you don't have any place to take the feelings. You don't have any place to take the feelings that you don't understand. So it's showing up as anger and irritation or irritability or whatever, and it's kind of splashing all over. But it's really the frustration, the disappointment, the sadness, and everything else that's kind of underneath that. So I would say one, the absolute most important, be gentle with yourself and be gentle with others. This is a challenging time for every single one of us. It's not fun, it's not easy. And so the thing is, be gentle and let that gentleness and kindness, it starts with you, and then let it transcend to all the other people in your life. The second thing I would have people do is be well connected to other people. This is not as much as we've been asked to shelter in place or to be whatever you want to call it.

I think of it as a physical sheltering. So it's not social distance, it's physical distance.

Right.

That's what's really being asked for here. It's physical distance. So but even with physical distance, I want you to be socially close. So maintain good social connections. Be in touch with people. Call people you haven't talked to in a long time. But this is a time to actually, I would say, build your social safety net. And so think again. It's physical Distance, social closeness.

I love it. And luckily we have technology and phones and ways to connect with others without having to be right in the same space.

And it's going to have to do for now.

So we're going to get good at that.

We're going to have to get good at it for a while.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, and I also had a thought, like, when a person, say, starts to implement your approach.

I mean, they can, they can get your book too, right? Like, they can order it at online or. Yeah, they can order audio too, right?

Yeah, no, it's, it's. Yes, it's audio. It's Kindle. In fact, the Kindle for the moment, depending on what people are listening, is they marked it down 85.

You can get it almost for nothing.

90 seconds to a life you love.

This is the book.

Love it.

Yeah.

90 seconds to a life you love by Dr. Joan Rosenberg. And you can start to listen to it, read it. What I'm thinking is that sometimes the other people in your environment may not be totally on the same page. What do you experience? What do you tell people? Just work on it yourself and let people experience a different you. Or how can you. How do you start to implement this when, you know, when maybe others in your life are not quite at the same place of interest in this?

Well, my thing is start. Yes, start with it yourself. What I have found is that the moment, it's so interesting, the moment if you're somebody that's avoided feeling, the moment you start to lean into them, you feel better. There's an organic lift that happens because you're actually being more true to yourself and the more. And that the book is a lot about how to apply the concept of the eight feelings because it applies to anxiety, to harsh self criticism, to accepting compliments, to imposter, syndrome, to. Did I say harsh self criticism.

Even these more complex experiences we have in life, basically.

Almost too. But you're saying it actually applies to these more complex experiences.

Absolutely, 100%. And so the thing is, experiment with it for yourself. And what I have found is that once you start to be aware of what's happening for you, you see it pretty quickly in other people. And then what's happened is that people want. Have been going, you got to get this book. And which is sweet, which I very much welcome. You know, for instance, even yesterday I went on, I have an Instagram account, I have four social accounts, and I went on Instagram and there was.

An African American man who was posting a video and was actually a lengthy Video talking about my concepts that relate to vulnerability. I talk about non conscious vulnerability and conscious vulnerability. And he was just relating that to his experience and how he had used those concepts centered around vulnerability to actually decrease his use of watching TV and to lighten an experience that he was heavy with the vulnerability and his own mortality.

And once he was aware of what went on, he could actually kind of release that. So, so again, here's the personal application and then a sharing of it. And then what you'll find is that you start to have a common language around this stuff and then.

You can kind of learn together.

Yes.

And so people can connect with you on Instagram and Facebook and the other social media.

Yeah, there's a Love My Life book on Facebook, Instagram, social media, LinkedIn, Twitter.

And they can get these kind of little reminders from little, little, little bits of Dr. Joan in your social media. And then I hear you're making a course so people could connect with you online.

And really I'm working on an online course and my goal is really for, for that to be out and available in the fall. So. Yes.

Wow. Because if someone really wants to learn how to implement this with your help in the course, that will be instrumental. And do you also train other practitioners?

I do. That's not. At this point, it would be individual. The next step past the online course would actually to do some kind of practitioner training. And there's a number of people that have been asking for that, but I would, I can.

Yeah, because I mean, that's. To think that this could be, you know, this could just really help so many people. So I have this vision for your work to just be able to be shared in many ways so that many people can access this. Because to think that something so profound and like, it's one of those things that is like right in front of our face this whole time, we just keep looking past it, you know? Right. And then we just all of a sudden you go, wait a minute. If I just can realize that as a human, I'm going to have these emotions and I might as well get comfortable with them. And then all of a sudden these possibilities open up in your life and your connections in your work. That's amazing, Jones.

Thank you. Thank you. I mean, my whole thing, Donnie, with that is that one's ability to both experience and express feelings is not only liberating, but because you're able to use your voice and again, from a positive kind and well intended place. But that when you're able to also then express yourself it to me, again, liberating as it has to do with experiencing the feelings, but leading to limitless opportunity. Because you can use your voice and ask either state what you need or ask for what you need. And so our state or state what you're interested in. So if I share. If I share an aspect of my dream and you happen to know somebody that can help me with that. Now just the fact that I've expressed something leads to opportunities that I couldn't even predict. So think of the ability to experience and express your feelings as both liberating, leading to limitless opportunity.

Wow. And that. I mean, that's. It's so inspiring and empowering to think of that. And at the same time, I can see where at first it can wrap back around to some more feelings. So just knowing that it can kind of be this, like. Right. Like it can kind of. You can go from. As soon as you get this moment of feeling empowered, then another feeling might pop up and you just gotta ride. Like you said, ride the waves.

Ride the waves. Just like an ocean wave. Just surf it any way you need to, but ride the waves.

Well, I love that because it brings back to what you said at the beginning, which is that you were inspired by nature to do what you do. You were inspired to be in nature and what we can learn from nature and to realize that really, probably a lot of what we experience as human, as humans, is what we see in nature.

Absolutely.

We just kind of forget that we're part of nature too, and that we would experience it that same way.

Right, Right. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. Circle back.

You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you again, Joan, for joining me. And I hope everyone you know stays in contact with you and reaches out to you to learn more. And thank you what you share for what you shared here today.

You bet. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm so grateful.

Thanks for listening to how humans can teal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources, visit drdani. Com.